3 shots 100 meter 9,3x62 300 grains RHINO factory load RHINO headstamp



3 shots 80 meter 308 win 180 grains RHINO factoryload


It makes me wonder what kind of ammo the ones who claim that these aren´t no good uses.
i haven´t read yet what SpringTrap and Gecko uses.
Perhaps they are payed off by some other manufacturer.

Gecko,

quote:

... you may learn a few things re hunting from them, if I may say so on their behalf.

If I understand you correctly, the hunters that hunt there by you actually could teach Alf, being a medical doctor, about shotplacement, anatomy, wounds, the killing mechanism and finally the onset of rigor mortis as a result of bullet wounds, right? This is hilarious !!! Just the other day you were talking about me mixing up foolishness with intelligence. Gosh, you are taking the cake, Ouboet.

quote:

We own neigbouring farms in the RSA Bushveld.

Could it be that these 2 farms are actually only 1 farm, with one owner?

Warrior

quote:

..... you may learn a few things re hunting from them ....

I don't think we need to say more when somebody reach completely ridiculous conclusions like you had in your previous post.

Apart from that, you're also confusing my posts with Gecko's and vice versa.
Not that we mind, but just to show that you're a bit more confused in you're reasoning than the two of us together.

Chris, keep Rhino and your promotion of their products preferably to yourself - we're not interested in the least - whatever you and who else have to say about them

quote:

Chris, keep Rhino and your promotion of their products preferably to yourself - we're not interested in the least - whatever you and who else have to say about them

SpringTrap,

The only interest to this forum is when you say they are JUNK. Sorry you mentioned we - that is then you and Gecko. And that despite some other good contributions in this thread that we have seen so far. I think you have to broaden your perspective a bit. Sorry, both of you.

The beauty of bullets are in the eye of the beholder. So let us then agree to disagree.

Good luck.
Warrior

Jnd,

Congratulation on your groupings.

The ones you showed us are awesome. When there is a true marriage between bullet and rifle, then this is what you get. If this is junk, then Gecko must show us his.

Which calibers are available for the Rhino factory load? Are they only available in Sweden or also to the rest of Europe?

Warrior

We can get the Rhino ammo and bullets here in Norway also , and i will get some soon to try out in .358 Norma Magnum and .404 Jeffery .

The ammo is abit pricey, but it has good stuff, not many loads a good 300 grain load in .9,3x62 as i know of and the ywill load big bore rounds also soon.

If im not mistaking , Norma makes the brass for Rhino in Sweden.

I have a couple of friends who uses almost no else than Rhino bullets for hunting.

Thank´s Warrior.

If you visit rhinos website,
Rhinobullets
you can check out their ammo.

quote:

We've learned long ago, through practical experience, that those Rhino bullets are definitely not suitable to gather meat for human consumption, either via the pot or biltong.

Gecko,



Meat damage comes from bullet fragmantation in the main. Frangible thin-jacketed lead-core bullets (non-bonded) shatter on impact when the velocity is too high. This is the main culprit. Rhino bullets hold together and lose very little in weight, as you have seen.

Secondly, high impact velocity causes more damage as its dissipates more energy quicker than the slow bullet. This goes for all bullets. I have always maintained that impact velocities between 2100 to 2200 fps is not only adequate, but more ideal for bullets to hold together and perform well without throwing off its petals.

So your analogy that just Rhino bullets in particularly should be rejected on the basis of creating a larger wound track is not sound.

Calibers such as the 7x57 and 9,x62, with classical bullet weights, invariably impacts at these aforementioned velocities. The same can be said for the faster calibers that are used at medium to long range. Driving frangible bullets to impact at high velocity is the problem. Luckily today, we have stronger bullets and that assists in minimizing meat damage. However, if it becomes your only yard stick( less meat damage), then we should only be shooting non-expanding solids ... but that is not likely to swing the whole hunting fraternity.

To illustrate, here is a typical example of two bullets with differing energy, but the same momentum. The faster .338 bullet with its higher energy will splash into a bigger temporary cavity and causing more bruising than the slower bullet with the same amount of momentum:

Caliber ---------- Mass ---- Velocity ----- Energy ---- Mo
338 Win Mag --- 250gr --- 2,700 fps --- 4,047,8 -- 96,4
9,3x62 mm ----- 286gr --- 2,360 fps --- 3,537,9 -- 96,4

It follows then that choice of caliber does play a role in minimising meat damage and meat bruising - for example on an impala a 7x57 is already "strong medecine", but with energy and momemtum both lower than the 9,3 stats at around 61%.

Warrior

Since I seem to have started an argument here, let me clarify something. I have found Rhino lead core expanding bullets to have acceptable hunting accuracy, to expand well and hold together well. They are not the most precise bullet that I have used, but they are fine. However, I have found Rhino lathe turned solids to be all over the target.

That is just my personal experience.

500 Grains,

Don't worry too much about the arguments that erupted. Let us rather see them as differences of opinion and in your case merely a bullet that did not work for you. The AR board is a true microcosm of the larger hunting fraternity - differences of opinions abound, and as such, we have the opportunity to share observations with each other, as well as to learn from each other as life is too short to accumulate all the experience in one life time. Some will defend SD other will make it off as null and void. Some will promote monlithtics and others premium Softs. Some will castigate Barnes-X, others will swear by it ... and so it goes.

Warrior

There is a page on the Rhino web site dedicated to accuracy.

Rat Motor,

Could you define acceptable hunting accuracy for us in terms of MOA groupings at 100 yds. And perhaps also differentiate between shots out to 200 yds (where most shots are taken) and out to 400 yds.

This question has nothing to do with any particular bullet, it is a general question. In other words, at which point do we reject the bullet - the cut-off MOA point?

Warrior

I do not understand the question. I thought that one minute of angle at 100 meters is the same as one mimute of angle at 200, 400 etc.

Gentlemen,

This is the lathe we use to make our bullets on - I understand GS Custom uses similar lathes for their bullets too.

The following are based on our own production, and it might or might not apply to manufacturers who produce lathe-turned bullets for sale.

As you know, we do not sell our bullets, but make them for our own use and for experimentation.

I have found that my own rifles shoot best with bullets that are slightly under size.

I make bullets for my own 375/404 in the range of 0.3744 - 0.3747. My two rifles consistently shoot under 3/4 inch groups - many touching clover leaf groups.

A friend has an old Mauser in 375 H&H and his seem to prefer slightly larger bullets.

His shoots best with bullets that are 0.3752-0.3755.

We have had a Blaser R93 here that had a very under size bore - we never got round to measuring it, but the rifle shot best with bullets that were 0.3739 - 0.3743.

With the lather above we can control the diameter by adjusting the tool offset - which goes down to 3 places of decimal in millimeters.

To be able to produce bullets of a consist size, I have to check each bullet as it comes off the machine and measure it. Sometimes I have to make minor adjustments for every single one made with a given rod of copper.

Other times I might be able to produce up to a 12 without it needing any further adjustment.

The raw copper rods we use are made for electrical earthing jobs. Some have a tine hole in the middle. Sometimes we can pick this out as we get the rods - there is a tell tale green rust spot in the middle of the end of the rod.

On other times we are unable to see this fault, only after one bullet has been made.

We use these rods to make pistol bullets which we shoot here in our range. Currently we make 0.357, 0.429 and 0.500 pistol bullets.

Also, we have found that the weight of the finished bullet varies according to the rods we use.

After we make a patch of bullets, we weigh them, and segregate them into groups that are within 1 grain of each other.

Follwoing are examples.

298.1 - 299.0
299.1 - 300.0
300.1 - 301.0
301.1 - 302.0

On the subject of bullets key-holing if they were smaller.

I have a 244 H&H magnum rifle, which has a groove diametr of 0.245. I use standard 0.243 diameter bullets in it, and it shoots groups as good as - or better - than with factory ammo with the larger diameter.

We have also tried loading 0.277 caliber bullets into a 7x64 Brenneke rifle and got groups of around 2 inches.

I might run a test on our bullets with varying diameter and see how that affects the accuracy in one rifle.

Ratmotor, MOA is literally translated in shooting terms is 1"@100yds, 2"@200yds, etc. That's the minimum that the rifle/bullet load should do.

saeed...i know you have more money than elvis but why not just buy a new barrel?

if you like making your own bullets and experimanting that is fun though...

quote:

Originally posted by 475Guy:
Ratmotor, MOA is literally translated in shooting terms is 1"@100yds, 2"@200yds, etc. That's the minimum that the rifle/bullet load should do.

1.047" at 100 yards = 1 MOA.
Or more precisely: 1 MOA = 1.047197580733" at 100 yards.

quote:

I do not understand the question.

Rat Motor,

That means you won't get to the right answer.

Warrior

475Guy and RIP,
Your explanation of MOA is how I understand it as well. Warrior the way you put your question suggests that a minute of angle is different at the various distances. A minute of angle group will be bigger at 200 than what it is at 100 but it remains a minute of angle so what are you actually asking? I still do not understand your question and it looks to me like you do not understand your question yourself.

In Magnum magazine of this month I see on page 10 there is a guy complaining that his Rhino 243 bullets did not expand and he had to track a lot of animals for great distances after they were shot. In South Africa a lot of reloaders use bullets because that is what is available and because of advertisements that lie. I made that mistake too.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Rat Motor,

Could you define acceptable hunting accuracy for us in terms of MOA groupings at 100 yds. And perhaps also differentiate between shots out to 200 yds (where most shots are taken) and out to 400 yds.Warrior

I don't understand the question either for what it's worth.
I would have answered that it entirely depends on the animal. In other words 2moa at 100yds may do for a Dik Dik at not over 100 yards, but be ok on an Eland at 200yds etc.

And as for bullets looking "funny", 1st grade Sierra target bullets I have measured at 16thou difference in length, and Sierra 2nds hunting bullets have had the cannelure all over the place including down near the base.

Rat Motor,

Question 1: "Could you define acceptable hunting accuracy for us in terms of MOA groupings at 100 yds."

Generally most hunters would feel very comfortable with a grouping of 1-MOA. However if you ever go to a SA Hunters shooting day, you will realize that the majority of hunters do not achieve this goal, and as such, they still go hunting with groupings of more than 25 mm. And what happens .... most of them still bring meat home. But 1-MOA is a good achievable standard to achieve with factory made rifles. Obviously clover -leave groups give us goose-bumps. The question was for YOU to define it any way you liked it, not so?

Question 2: "And perhaps also differentiate between shots out to 200 yds (where most shots are taken) and out to 400 yds."

This is actually a standard 3 level question to see if one can apply what was learned in Question 1. It simply prompts the mind that for the longer shots (those beyond 200 yds and out to 400 yds), one would be inclined to tighten up on groups (at 100 yds) and so set the standard more stringent at say 0.5-MOA, so that by the time the bullet reaches:

200 meters, it still groups 1.0 inch (0.5 x 2)
300 meters, it still groups 1.5 inch (0.5 x 3)
400 meters, it still groups 2.0 inch (0.5 x 4)

Now , just for some revision: The logic being, that for longer shots we need tighter groups.

Now were these 2 leading questions really so difficult or incomprehensible?

Warrior

As to accuaracy ... just some aspects that may not be so perfect in our rifles which affect the precision of our shooting, regardless of which bullet we are using:

1) Chambers not cut too well (concentricity issue).
2) Bullet line-up with the bore not perfect (concentricity issue).
3) Any problem with the first 2 items will become more serious in longer throats where there is a bigger bullet jump.
4) Barrels with inconsistent twists and uniformity of groove depth (match barrels being much more precise).
5) Gas escape at crown not even (induce a skewness/yaw).
6) Bad triggers that induce "pulled" shots.

That is why I said before, that the hunter, his rifle, and the bullet, all play its role. That is why we have to play around some times with different seating depths to get the right bullet jump - especially true for the Barnes-X bullet that seems to call for a 2 mm jump more often than not.

Warrior

Rat Motor,

The guy complaining about rhino does not say that it did not expand but says that it created small wound channels compared to the sierra matchkings that he uses. Incidently he never recoverd any of the 243 rhino bullets as they all exited on 30 odd animals and using a 243 on wildebeest is just not the best idea unless your going for head and neck shots.

So lets say for instance that the 243 bullets opened up did not defragment like they usually do that means that the wound channel would have been around .340-.350" in the end and comparing that to sierra Matchkings small yes.

I have had no bad experiences with Rhinos softs on game whatsoever .30 to 375 H&H caliber. Bloodshot meat comes from high speed no matter what you use as a soft nose bullet. Yes there are some problems when it comes to exact weight and lenght for rhinos but that has never stopped good accuracy and hunting.

quote:

Now were these 2 leading questions really so difficult or incomprehensible?

In the way you asked them and answerd them yourself yes. Lighten up and try some straight talk instead of waffling.

quote:

This is actually a standard 3 level question / It simply prompts the mind

What are you some kind of shrink?

quote:

1) Chambers not cut too well (concentricity issue).
2) Bullet line-up with the bore not perfect (concentricity issue).
3) Any problem with the first 2 items will become more serious in longer throats where there is a bigger bullet jump.
4) Barrels with inconsistent twists and uniformity of groove depth (match barrels being much more precise).
5) Gas escape at crown not even (induce a skewness/yaw).
6) Bad triggers that induce "pulled" shots.

I took the time and money to have a rifle built by a gunsmith with the expectation that your points one to six will not be part of the deal. I put together a decent reloading set and do not need to stuff it all up by using bullets that are not concentric and different weights shapes and lengths. I can shoot good groups with some bullets and get nowhere with others and there is a reason for it. My gunsmith proved to me that unifomity is the most important thing to look after.

The letter in Magnum did not say that the guy shot wildebeest with a 243. He shot the wildebeest with a 270 as it says in the first and last parts of his letter. What stands out is that the animals he had long follow ups with were shot with Rhino bullets. He says "I had to search long and hard for several of those animals." He says they produced small wound channels and the adverts and the gun shops say they dont. Once you find out the truth for yourself it is a lesson that is difficult to forget.

I thank God for every small bullet maker out there. Going through the red tape, government regulation, and garbage to create a product we use. If not, we'd still have just Hornady, Speer, and Sierra, and, we'd have VERY limited choices.

Growing pains for a company such as Rhino are going to be there. Frankly, I can't imagine how in such an anti-gun climate they even manage to make ANY bullets. I've heard folks going back to black powder to be able to carry a hand gun in SA.
Saeed's machine doesn't look cheap, and, getting quality material to start with doesn't look easy. I look at relatively well established Barnes, and, some of their bullets shoot in my rifles, and some don't. I get over it, and pick a different bullet.

Without such folks as Kobus, we'd REALLY be screwed, watching on the sidelines, and, begging Saeed to send us some of his bullets...

S

quote:

In South Africa a lot of reloaders use bullets because that is what is available and because of advertisements that lie. I made that mistake too.

Sure reloaders can only use bullets that are available. If they are not available, then they obviously cannot be used - that is a tautology.
Reloaders experiment with various bullets and then ultimately they use what works for them. So I do not believe that advertisements can up hold their sales in the long run - the product must actually work.

Even if an advertisement is, misleading, false or a well orchestrated lie, it will be short-lived. If you supposedly made a mistake with Rhino bullets, then we need to have a moment of silence as you have become a victim. Perhaps I am a permanent victim and you are lucky as this bad luck struck you only once. Come to think of it, many others are still using it (all victims) - either they are so dumb that they do not even realize that they are making continual mistakes, or they are smarter than what you are crediting them with, that they are actually quite happy with their choice.

Warrior

Gentlemen,

I had a chat with my old friend Roy Vincent yesterday - who is coming over to visit us in a couple of days with his family.

Roy loves to shoot, so I suggested that he might wish to do an experiment for us.

We have a brand new 375H&H rifle, and my intention is to try different size bullets in it and see at what point does the accuracy deteriorates drastically.

I have alrteady started making bullets for our experiment, in the following sizes:

0.3755
0.3750
0.3740
0.3730
0.3720
0.3710
0.3700

I know, some of you might think that is going to extremes. But, on a previous occasion I tried 0.277 bullets in a 0.284 barrel, and they shot reasonably well!

We will let you know what develops.

Saeed,

It would be most interesting to see the results of the bullet that is 1-thou under spec in particular, as some manufacturers do this to bring pressure down in their Solids.

Warrior

I was just looking in my Somchem Reloading Manual on page 23 under the heading of "Projectile" where mass variation of a bullet is being discussed. There they stated that the influence is indeed small, but they go further and state actual numbers and I quote ... "1 grain variance might have 1.5 calibre influence at 1000 yds. Negligible for most applications."

So for a .243 bullet it equates to 9.25 mm's at 1,000 yds.
Let us bring it closer to practical hunting ranges:
300 yds - translates to 2.77 mm
200 yds - translates to 1.85 mm
100 yds - translates to 0.92 mm

So there we have it - for those that can shoot all bullets into one perfect hole at 100 yds , we now have a position that this hole will grow with 0.9 of a mm, which is about the thickness of a Chinaman's hair, but it is still one ragged hole. And in terms of hunting bullets, it means ....

Warrior

I took a box of 50 Barnes X in 375 300 grain bullets. Those are the old ones with a cannelure, and measuerd their diameters and weight.

0.3750 - 12
0.3751 - 24
0.3752 - 12
0.3753 - 2

The weights were:

299.7 - 3
299.9 - 6
300.0 - 13
300.1 - 9
300.2 - 6
300.3 - 7
300.4 - 2
300.6 - 3
300.8 - 1

diameters: 0.3753 - 2
Weights: 300.8 - 1

From the list of diameters and weights one would expect at least 2 bullets to weigh 300.8gr.
Yet there is only 1.

That brings me to the conclusion that the bullets are not only having different diameters and weights, but also different lengths.

Wow! What a mixed lot of all sorts and kinds?

I agree with what Rat Motor said:

quote:

My gunsmith proved to me that unifomity is the most important thing to look after.

Why bother then with lower standards than uniformity, regardless of make of bullet?

The differences in with can be due to the raw copper rods.

I have found that different rods would produce different weights - despite the diameter and length are the same.

I would assume this is due to the density of each rod as it is drawn.

SpringTrap.
Since you have trashed almost every bullet here, what bullets do you use, and have you checked their uniformaty ?

As far as I can see I have only trashed two types of bullets so far in this thread because of poor uniformity, namely Rhino, also due to very poor results, and Barnes X based on Saeed's post

Serious quality control starts with the raw material the manufacturer decides to use.

I use only GS Custom bullets from my .222 right through to my .375H&H Magnum and all the other 3 calibres (.243, .270 & 300WM) in between.

And here is why!

Could it be so that you are the owner of that company ?

jnd,
I assume you are pointing a finger at me.

Don and/or Saeed has my permission to confirm or deny whether I am posting as SpringTrap.

For the sake of clarity also note that I am not the owner of GS Custom Bullets.

Gentlemen,

Gerard and SpringTrap are posting from 2 different IP addresses.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
jnd,
I assume you are pointing a finger at me.

How can I point a finger at you since you not have been posting in this thread

Since S T never told anyone what bullets he used only the ones he didn´t use.

I just asked him a yes or no question

Gentlemen,

If one is looking for ABSOLUTE consistency in weight, diameter, length etc in bullets, he is NOT going to find it.

This is, I am afraid is a fact of life, and we have to live with it.

I have, in the past, weight and sorted a lot of match bullets in various calibers. At no time was I able to find ALL bullets weighing exactly the same weight, nor were they the same length.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

If one is looking for ABSOLUTE consistency in weight, diameter, length etc in bullets, he is NOT going to find it.

This is, I am afraid is a fact of life, and we have to live with it.

I have, in the past, weight and sorted a lot of match bullets in various calibers. At no time was I able to find ALL bullets weighing exactly the same weight, nor were they the same length.

The reason why target shooters can't find the "one hole group". Kinda wierd, we can put people into space, yet not build absolute concentricity in bullets!