I have shot Rhino .375" 300 grain flat nose solids out of 2 .375 H&H rifles at the range two different trips. They have been both inaccurate and inconsistent. Sometimes a 2 inch group, sometimes a 4 inch group. Sometimes 6" low, sometimes 3" right. I would think it was a scope or bedding problem if I did not get the same thing from 2 different guns that shoot other bullets fine.

Cosmetically the bullets look fine. But I wonder if there isn't something funky going on, like the bases are not square with the shank.

Dan
Measure the ridges on the bullets and check their hardness, ie how easy are they to mash flat.

Sounds like they may be stripping in the rifling, bullets a little undersize, or those bbls may both be a little oversize, or get larger closer to the muzzle.

Have Aleko shoot some in a Blaser bbl as most hammer forged bbls get smaller toward the muzzle.

Tony,

These are a grooved bullet like the Barnes FN. In fact, it looks like Barnes copied them. So the "bands" are very wide and would not mash flat. However, it is possible that they bullets are undersized. So far I see no keyholing so far.

Probably these will end up being blasting bullets for shooting rocks and such.

500 Grains,

This kind of erratic grouping that you talk about is strange, as it is unbecoming of a lathe turned solid. My son hunts exclusively with .375 H&H Rhino bullets, mainly the soft noses, but he tried some solids as well and they grouped well in his rifle. In fact it is widely used by PH's.

Perhaps you should contact the maufacturer and discuss your problem with them since you suspect that the probelm is with the bullet and not with the rifle (or yourself).

Warrior

Dan, I have corresponded with Kobus on a couple of occasions about his bullets and always received prompt and helpful replies. I suggest a direct contact: rhbullet@mweb.co.za

According to Mike at North Fork, in bullets that have little obduration, and particularly when the bearing surface is reduced by groves (or in his bullets, the opposite of groves), even a bullet undersized by .0005 " will cause erratic performance. Mic the bullets and some other brand (both being monolithic) and I'll bet that the ones that "fly right" are a bit larger in diameter. If you do so, let me know if my theory is correct.

I've never heard bad stuff about Rhino's, btw, and saw a P.H. retire a .458 diameter from a .450 Watts Rhino from the third buffalo that he had shot with it when it finally bent a bit.

Wink, thanks for the contact info. I should have saved a target. Next trip to the range I will save a target so that I will have something to show Koos. And the suggestions to measure the bullets are well taken, so I will do that.

Once upon a time, I got a batch of Barnes .585" bullets that had all their cannelures in a different spot. It was as if the guy running the lathe that day did not lock it down. So I would not rule out a QC issue even though in general lathe turned bullets tend to be precise.

Dan
You might try wacking them with a hammer [or better, giving them a little squeeze in a vise, more precise], to bump them up on two sides.
Then at least half the bullet would grip the rifling.

Sorry couldn't resist.

I still think you should try them in a Blaser R 93 bbl.

Yeah, but Aleko sold his shorty .375 barrel to some dude from Texas.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Next trip to the range I will save a target so that I will have something to show Koos.

Dan, I have corresponded with Kobus van der Westhuizen. I'm sorry, I don't know everyone who works there and don't know who Koos is.

Oops. I just wrote the name wrong.

quote:

Sometimes a 2 inch group, sometimes a 4 inch group. Sometimes 6" low, sometimes 3" right.

500 Grains,

I happen to order some more bullets today from Rhino Bullets, and amongst other things, I asked him about the feedback he received over the years about his .375/300 gr solid bullet.

Kobus said that he has never heard about the kind of scattered dispertion that you encountered.

In the light of of no previous adverse feedback from all his other users, he was rather intriqued about your experience and would love to receive the details from you.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I have shot Rhino .375" 300 grain flat nose solids out of 2 .375 H&H rifles at the range two different trips. They have been both inaccurate and inconsistent. Sometimes a 2 inch group, sometimes a 4 inch group. Sometimes 6" low, sometimes 3" right. I would think it was a scope or bedding problem if I did not get the same thing from 2 different guns that shoot other bullets fine.

Cosmetically the bullets look fine. But I wonder if there isn't something funky going on, like the bases are not square with the shank.

A Swedish ammunition supplier had the same problem as you are having with Rhino bullet's but in another calibre. They had to destroy 70 000 loaded cartridges that didn't shoot well, the bullets actually had sligthly different shape...

I think the answer is; Lack of quality control

A problem many small companies in bullet, cases and rifle making business a sharing.

Husky,

Thanks for your feedback. Hopefully those 70,000 cartridges could at least be used for shooting practice by employees of the ammo company.

Chris,

I will shoot a target for Kobus to take a look at.

500 grains,
Your'e right!
The cartridges was used at the local shooting range with the demand from the supplier that the only way they where allowed to leave the range was from the barell of a rifle

The calibre was .243 Win -and according to that calibre's popularity in Sweden -they are still praticing with those Rhino's...

Husky,

This web page:

http://www.rhinobullets.co.za/tests.htm

seems to indicate who the Swedish ammo company would be.

That page also implies that the Swedish ammo company tested the Rhino 380 gr bullet in wet newspapers and pine boards using a duplex load of South African powders. I have no way of knowing, but it does not seem likely.

A machinist friend measured 5 of the Rhino .375" flat nose solids for me because he can measure things more precisely than I can. The bullets showed a pretty wide variation with some likely to be too small for the bore. Rarely did two points on the same bullet measure the same thing. The largest bullet ran .3749 and the smallest was .3741. The variation may be enough to give matching variable pressures and velocities. When combined with being undersized, this might be the reason for the inconsistencies I noticed while shooting them. It is my understanding that bullet diameter should not vary more than +/- .00015 from nominal. THe Rhinos lacked concentricity with .0005" variations around the bullet at any one point.

70 thousand cartridges! Going by the price of Norma ammo in South Africa that comes to about R1,400,000.00 That will buy a very nice set of wheels!!

After such a huge loss to Norma, they (Norma) should insist that Rhino definitely remove the next bit from their web site!!

quote:

We are proud to announce that Norma will be loading a limited amount of Rhino Bullets in .243/100gr. And .270/150gr. In Sept. 03. We have also decided to remove the Norma test results as these were purely accuracy tests done by Norma. Pressure testing and commercial loads have as yet not been developed by Norma.

Will Norma ever do that after the initial failures?

Proud? Rhino should rather be ashamed of their huge mishap.

Although the variations in the Rhino solids were measurable but not visually apparent, the same cannot be said for the softs. The photos below depict .375 350 grain softs. Note that each bullet appears to be a sculptural work of its own, which means that each will follow its own distinct path in life. In the past I have gotten acceptable 100 yard hunting accuracy with Rhino 9.3s, but I am skeptical about what the .375 softs will do. After I shoot some targets I will report here.

quote:

A Swedish ammunition supplier had the same problem as you are having with Rhino bullet's but in another calibre. They had to destroy 70 000 loaded cartridges that didn't shoot well, the bullets actually had sligthly different shape...

Husky,

My son and I have been using Rhino's .243/100 gr bullet since March 11 th, 1999 when I got the licence for it. Whilst they differ in length from .5 to 1 mm's in extreme cases, I have never had an accuracy problem with them; shooting groupings of 11 mm's. I really do not understand the problem. Perhaps you could elaborate on the problem that you refered to.

Warrior

I had good accuracy results with the Rhino Solid Shank bullet 400 grain in my 416 Rigby CZ 550. I'm still fiddling with the 400 grain in my 404 Jeffery however. My 404 is a short freebore (US made on a Kreiger barrel) rather than a longer CIP freebore so Rhino made another batch for that (grimping groove set back 3 mm I think) and sent them to me. I think they aim to please.

quote:

After such a huge loss to Norma, they (Norma) should insist that Rhino definitely remove the next bit from their web site!!

Springtrap,

I take it that you base your conclusion solely on the basis that your information is correct? What if it is not?

I suspect something is very wrong with this rumour, even if I just confine myself to the artithmatic, but perhaps a statement from Norma themselves could clear this speculation up.

Warrior

Seeing that you're so pro Rhino, why don't you clear this so-called rumour up with Norma on behalf of your friend, the manufacturer?

Looking at some of the pictures 500grains posted above as well as the measurements given on Rhino bullets, I don't see why you doubt the rumour for one moment - quite obvious one would rather think!

What would you have to say if it is all true?

quote:

I don't see why you doubt the rumour for one moment

SpringTrap,

With due respect I do not think the onus is on me to meddle in this affair, as I am not the one who started this speculation or perpetuating the rumour or making statements what Norma should or should not do, or that it is a shame (or not) on Rhino's part, as I do not have privi to these dealings and what actually transpired.

I have tested various Rhino bullets myself and I am hunting with them. If a bullet is not to my liking, I would not use it, but it so happens that I am happy with Rhino bullets. In particular, I am also using the .243/100 gr bullet that this whole hoo-haa is all about, and I have had no complaints as stated before since 1999. That is why I doubt the rumour not to even comment on the figures that are thrown around.

As far as the .375/300 gr bullets are concerned, we have been hunting with it since 1998 - also no problems - in fact we are getting sterling performance from it. 500 Grains obtained a grouping that really boggles the mind - I thought at first he was using a shotgun. Now the 350 grainers .... well shoot them and the result will speak.

Warrior

/

Springtrap,

The silence is felt ...

When Kobus came into the business of making bullets, he started off with standard steel dies with the sole purpose of making a stronger hunting bullet as opposed to making a match bullet. When such a die reaches the near-end of its useful life, dimensional changes occur especially in length, but the diameter gets pushed to spec by a series of other dies so it is not affected. The slight bullet-length differences is not serious, as bullets gets seated on the ogive and not on the tip of the bullet. Even if bullets vary 2-grains in weight it does not affect the point of striking the target.

Kobus has over time switched over to tungsten dies, which is much tougher and therefore more uniform. Kobus grew from humble beginnings; started out in his garage to where he is today serving a large part of the market including professional hunters.

The Rhino bullet is still much cheaper than the recently imported Swift A-Frame bullet, and available in a much greater variety of calibers and weights. His bullets are readily available throughout the country in gun shops and that is a huge plus factor for the reloader.

Perhaps one day there will be Rhino cartridges available just like Impala cartridges are already available to non-reloaders. In the end a bullet will stand or fall on its own merits in the market place.

Chris

quote:

The silence is felt ...

You're perfectly rigth, on Norma's side though!

quote:

..... as we once loaded 20 000 pcs and these were sold and shooting well.

"The silence is felt ...." on the balance of 50 000 pcs that Norma has not commented on.

The once above says much more than what you may think - thus no comment from Norma.

quote:

When such a die reaches the near-end of its useful life, dimensional changes occur especially in length, but the diameter gets pushed to spec by a series of other dies so it is not affected. The slight bullet-length differences is not serious, ....

What a wonderful manufacturing process Kobus has, wear and tear automatically dealt with - please, be realistic with your excuses.

quote:

The slight bullet-length differences is not serious, as bullets gets seated on the ogive and not on the tip of the bullet. Even if bullets vary 2-grains in weight it does not affect the point of striking the target.

Don't bullshit yourself, not even to mention others on this forum.

Having said all that I think you now know what the real answer is re Rhino bullets and what Norma, very gentlemanly like, has chosen not to comment on.

You can fool all the people some of the time.
You can fool some of the people all the time.
But you can never fool all the people all the time

I believe you are not only insulting me you are insulting Norma. Do you believe that a company with over a hundred years of experience in the manufacturing would load 70,000 bullets with our proper tests? Before and during the loading process.

You are now claiming Norma is putting out false information and have appointed your self’s as spokes men for Norma.

Sir’s I do not have time for all this nonsense, you people enjoy yourselves on this thread, it is a pity you are doing it at my expense.

Regards,


Kobus
OWNER RHINO BULLETS CC

quote:

But you can never fool all the people all the time

Ah, the Guru himself!

Now that you've confirmed the figure of 70 000, can you tell us more about the balance of 50 000?

The truth please, like Norma did give us in repect of the once loaded exercise they had with the first 20 000.

Suppose wear and tear took it's toll after that first 20 000

quote:

Originally posted by SpringTrap:
Now that you've confirmed the figure of 70 000, can you tell us more about the balance of 50 000?

Where does he say that ?

quote:

Do you believe that a company with over a hundred years of experience in the manufacturing would load 70,000 bullets with our proper tests?

You certainly would not regard the above as a denial of the number, would you?

Get further confirmation from your fellow country man 'husky' - he seems to know more than many of us about the whole issue.

As long as ´husky´ don´t work at NORMA or have a close friend that does I don´t think his info would be of any help.

And no I don´t regard it as a denial, more like a question to you.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Although the variations in the Rhino solids were measurable but not visually apparent, the same cannot be said for the softs. The photos below depict .375 350 grain softs. Note that each bullet appears to be a sculptural work of its own, which means that each will follow its own distinct path in life. In the past I have gotten acceptable 100 yard hunting accuracy with Rhino 9.3s, but I am skeptical about what the .375 softs will do. After I shoot some targets I will report here.

Different lengths, multiple different groove widths, why would you use bullets like these when there are uniform (superior) bullets on the market?

/

/

Alf,

Do you have the ability to accurately measure the following:

1. Bullet diameter at various places along the shank.

2. Bullet concentricity.

3. Whether the bullet base is square to the bullet shank.

My Rhino FN solids seem to have a problem regarding #1 and #2, but I am unable to measure #3.

/

Alf,

I bought some Rhinos from the U.S. distributor in Texas several years ago, and I bought a bunch more last year when he closed out his operation. As to date of manufacture, I cannot say.

Are Rino Bullets avalible in the US, now that Bill is not importing them?

Allen