I am not sure it is the bullets fault. It could be any part of the chain.

I have a 6PPC rifle that would shoot in the zeros - sometimes I cannot see how I cam seasure it - as long as I can hold it steady.

jnd

quote:

Could it be so that you are the owner of that company ?

Surely you were not implying that SpringTrap is my daughter?

366torque,
Unlike swaged/forged/stamped bullet, concentricity with a turned monometallic bullet is relatively easy and not expensive to achieve. Not to differ with Saeed, he will see what I am getting at, even absolute consistency of weight, length and diameter can be delivered, depending on how much you are prepared to pay per bullet. There is an industry standard that serves as a guide to what is acceptable and what is to be regarded as sub-standard. It is up to every manufacturer to decide whether he will manufacture to the industry standard, exceed it (and by how much), or disregard it. It is up to the user to decide how much he wants to pay and what level of uniformity he is prepared to buy.

As a matter of interest, under sized bullets will deliver good accuracy if all the bullets in a batch are uniform in their under size. Whether the accelerated wear on the throat of the rifle is acceptable, remains the reloader's choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I took a box of 50 Barnes X in 375 300 grain bullets. Those are the old ones with a cannelure, and measuerd their diameters and weight.

0.3750 - 12
0.3751 - 24
0.3752 - 12
0.3753 - 2

The weights were:

299.7 - 3
299.9 - 6
300.0 - 13
300.1 - 9
300.2 - 6
300.3 - 7
300.4 - 2
300.6 - 3
300.8 - 1

Did you check them for different diameters at different places along the bullet shank? That was a phenomena I found with the Rhino lathe turned solid.

And did you check for concentricity?

The measurements Saeed posted are comfortably within industry standard. The size variance is 0.0003" or 0.008mm and the weight varies by 1.1gr. On a 300gr bullet that is less than a half percent. Nothing wrong with weight and diameter here.

I won't get my boots too muddy here but...

I've heard and read too many differing reports about Rhino's consistency on game to risk using them, especially in the smaller calibres. One bloke sez they are the bee's knees on impala and another won't touch them with a barge pole - they just whistle through. This is in different calibres and weights as well.

The acid test for me is on blue wildebeest. Take these down reliably (translated - "bang-flop") with at least a 180gr 30 cal bullet, out of a 30-06, then you would have many a convert in the Northern Transvaal. Until then I'll use a 375 on BW, nothing less.

Good shot placement is a given, naturally.

The 380gr bullet in 375 has always piqued my interest, but I have always had Swifts or Barnes X's on hand in the more common 300gr weight so I have never experimented. The Barnes has never failed me, it was my "go-to" hunting bullet for the last 4 years (that's how long it took to develop a load from 1 box of 50, and then hunt the larger animals I go after with the remainder. I probably shot away 3/4 of them into sandbanks just "sighting in" before a kudu or wildebeest hunt.

I now have 50 300gr Swift A-Frames and these will see me into retirement, methinks.

I also have 15 Impala bullets in 375 somebody gave me but they are too cutting edge (pardon the pun) for my taste. I believe these just "whistle through" as well.

I see Goodnel are flying under the radar in this discussion, I have 200 of their 130gr Plainsmasters in 7mm just itching for a try-out on jumpgoats. Anybody tried 'em yet?

And the 300 gr CS Rangers? I bought 100 for "blasting" and the first lot were so undersize they would not even seat in a sized, unexpanded 375 H&H neck. They were returned and I got a new box that did. I suggested politely a cannelure might be a good idea.

Claw bullets - the ones swaged inside copper tube - are so too damn inaccurate. I don't know anyone in my circle of friends who has dared to shoot an animal with one after their experience at the bench doing load development. Groups around 4 inches at 100m were my sad lot. I used up 2/3 of a box of 0.224 70gr and never got smaller than a 2" group with a rifle that shoots bug holes with 69gr BTHP's. Highly disappointing. I have no doubt that their performance on game would be good, but hitting the animal would be a good start! I am lank pissed off because I bought 200 of them thinking my 1:10 twist 22-250 would gobble them up on springbok. Until I found them no-one made a decent heavy weight 224 hunting bullet.

Then I have a box of the GS 120 gr HV's in 7mm that I keep promising myself I will use but never get round to. They are accurate in my rifle but the POI is about 30cm to the right of all my other loads in my 7X64.

Thank goodness we do have our own bullet makers here in SA, but what we need is someone who will make good target bullets across the calibre range. PMP tried but their 155gr 308 Palma is not good at all.

224 something in 55, 69 or 75gr (yeah, I know...very specialised)
270: a 115gr or 130gr would be nice
7mm: a 150gr
30 cal: a 155 and a 168 gr

All BTHP's of course.

quote:

Originally posted by jnd:


3 shots 100 meter 9,3x62 300 grains RHINO factory load RHINO headstamp



3 shots 80 meter 308 win 180 grains RHINO factoryload

Jnd,

If your groupings with Rhino bullets, despite differences in weight and length, are anything to go by, then all I could say it is a damn hard act to follow with factory bullets. Could you tell us what make of rifles you are using? Also to what extent the 9,3x62 is still in use in your country and whether or not it is gaining in popularity.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
jnd

quote:

Could it be so that you are the owner of that company ?

Surely you were not implying that SpringTrap is my daughter?

I dont really understand why you think that I pointed my finger at you.

How should I know who is the owner of a certain company located in RSA.

I askes S T and you replayed..

And when did I say that you posted as S T ???

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

If your groupings with Rhino bullets, despite differences in weight and length, are anything to go by, then all I could say it is a damn hard act to follow with factory bullets. Could you tell us what make of rifles you are using? Also to what extent the 9,3x62 is still in use in your country and whether or not it is gaining in popularity.

Warrior

The 9,3 I´m using is an Benelli Comfortech, and I can tell u that I tried out 13 other ammotypes including the 250 grains RHINO but my gun didn´t like those.

The 308 is my coworkers Blaser R93 with a matchbarrel, it shoots well with almost anything but the factoryloaded RHINO realy hit the spot.

To the question about the usage of 9,3x62. Due to the increasing amount of wildboar it gaining in popularity.

quote:

The acid test for me is on blue wildebeest. Take these down reliably (translated - "bang-flop") with at least a 180gr 30 cal bullet, out of a 30-06, then you would have many a convert in the Northern Transvaal. Until then I'll use a 375 on BW, nothing less.

HI Pete,

I am rather intriqued by the above statement of yours. You mean to tell me you doubt the ability of a .308/180 gr Rhino bullet to perform on Blue Wildebeest? Do I understand you correctly?

Well I am using a 160 grainer in my 7x57 mm and I have shot plenty of them, no problem. The real acid test is to actually try one of these bullets and then you can decide. I just cannot see how a 180 grain bullet is too light for a Blue Wildebeest.

That all your other bullets go straight to the bull, but that the 120 gr GSC HV bullet goes 30 cm to the right mesmerizes me. If it was not a tornado or a hurricane then there is a serious screw loose.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by jnd:
Could it be so that you are the owner of that company ?

+1
NOW THE REAL ISSUE STARTS COMING TO LIGHT...

gs

Warrior,

Yes, you do. Acquaintance of mine tried them on a BW and according to him it did not expand very well at all, by his assessment of the entrance/exit wounds. The Willy ran quite some way but it did expire eventually, without any additional shooting.

Tracking was fairly straightforward, but it ate up their day following it. Every time they spotted it, it spotted them first and ran off without giving them a shot. They were following too close, which keeps the animal on the move, instead of letting it rest up and lie down. Elementary tracking mistake. Once a willy lies down with a wound like that, it never gets up unless it is disturbed. Anyway they found it dead.

Admittedly all hearsay evidence bolstered by a bit of campfire brandy and coke sustenance.

And only one example as well.

I don't have a 30-06, only a 300 H&H and about 200 200gr Barnes-X, so I don't think I'll be trying the Rhino's anytime soon. Not because I think it is a lousy bullet, just that I have other good, proven bullets to hand.

As to the GS's shooting 30cm to the right? That is elementary barrel harmonics. Check out the Somchem loading book, there is a lot written on that. The groups were excellent, just all off the target 30cm to the right - this is at 200m incidentally - all my testing is at 200m. All I would need to do is dial in the windage and all would be OK again. No screws loose in that gun, it shoots extremely well.

Hey Warrior, that Somchem reloading book is very interesting. They have a lot to say about what a good bullet should be like but talk only about accuracy. As they say a difference in weight is not that important and they give it a minor importance rating. The major ratings they mention are concentricity of the the main body of the bullet and and concentricity of the base. They say about the base of the bullet: Any non concentricity will cause serious problems during separation stage - muzzle exit. Maybe this is the problem if you look at the picture 500grains posted.


The other major factors they talk about are diameter and hardness and bearing surface. This photo shows a lot of variation in bearing surface length and that is a major thing according to Somchem.


All this makes a lot of sense because uniformity in weight and shape and resistance plays a big role in the blueprinting of a performance engine.

What worries me more than accuracy is what happens when the bullet hits the animal and that is where reliability is most important and lacking badly if the experience of contributors here is anything to go by. To start with I found it difficult to hit plains game reliably with bullets that shoot 100 mm flyers every third or fourth shot at 100 m. And then there is that sinking feeling when you hear the bullet hit and the animal takes off and just keeps going.

Rat Motor,

Just go back to page 1 and see what Alf said about the Rhino bullets, and the fabulous grouping he obtained with his 7x57.

As to your fear as to what happens when the bullet strikes, this is what Alf had to say ...

quote:

In many of my rifles of varying calibers they work very well and as many will attest they are good killers.

My experience with Rhino bullets is comforting in that I have no fear whatsoever that they would not perform - in fact they have always performed for me since 1998, and that is all that counts for me. Why would PH's load Rhino bullets if they do not perform?

As to 500 Grains bullets that you posted, all I can say is he must shoot them and let the results speak. The difference in bullet length & weight is not a major issue, as I have said before, as it does not reflect in any noticeable way in my groups. I think I am far more at fault with my larger groups of 11 mm (with my 7x57) than the very same bullet that Alf shoots into a clover leaf.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Rat Motor,

The difference in bullet length & weight is not a major issue,
Warrior

It was for 500 Grains.

JPK

Chris (Truvelloshooter/Warrior)

quote:

That all your other bullets go straight to the bull, but that the 120 gr GSC HV bullet goes 30 cm to the right mesmerizes me. If it was not a tornado or a hurricane then there is a serious screw loose.

So, you stay with your agenda of trying to find something wrong with GSC bullets. It is getting tiresome pointing this out. The HV bullet Pete is using, is a D-R-I-V-E B-A-N-D bullet. The other bullets are S-M-O-O-T-H bullets. A D-R-I-V-E B-A-N-D bullet causes less flexing and vibration of the shooting platform than S-M-O-O-T-H bullets. If the rifle is prone to this, various S-M-O-O-T-H bullets will tend to shoot more or less in the same spot, while D-R-I-V-E B-A-N-D bullets will print a group elsewhere. Sometimes it is pronounced and sometimes it is less obvious. We see it mostly with rifles where the bedding of the action incorrectly includes the first inch or two of the barrel, with the rest of the barrel free floated. Adding a bit of fore end pressure reduces the phenomenon, if it is a problem to the reloader. But, as Pete said, there is nothing wrong with the rifle, it is just harmonics.

I typed this slowly so that you can follow what I said more easily. It seems that, after six years of your agenda of slander, you have actually learned very little, or you are genuinely slow on the uptake and it makes you look really short on experience and knowledge.

How about some pictures of you and one of the hundreds of animals you have supposedly hunted? A picture of a bullet you have recovered, maybe (one that you used yourself)? A picture of one of the rifles you say you own?


Until you do, my opinion remains that you are hiding in plain sight as an accomplished

PS. I had to look up "tautology". You should too. It describes what you do here quite well.

Gentlemen,

We made 15 bullets in each of the following sizes:
0.3755
0.3750
0.3740
0.3730
0.3720
0.3710
0.3700

We used 72 grains of H 4350, in RWS cases, and Remington large rifle Magnum primers.

We used a Victor K98 rifle chambered for the 375 H&H magnum.

We shot these in 3 shot groups.

0.3750
0.3740
0.3730
0.3720 all shot normally - exact results I will post tomorrow - and one can use all these for hunting. What we have noticed was that the point of impact moved to the left as the diameter of the bullet got smaller.

The 0.3710 were totally unusable, as out of the 15 fired, only three hit the backing paper sideways - again, I will post a photo of this tomorrow.

We have another lot of bullets that are 0.3755 and we are going to shoot them tomorrow and report the results.

quote:

Sometimes it is pronounced and sometimes it is less obvious. We see it mostly with rifles where the bedding of the action incorrectly includes the first inch or two of the barrel, with the rest of the barrel free floated. Adding a bit of fore end pressure reduces the phenomenon, if it is a problem to the reloader. But, as Pete said, there is nothing wrong with the rifle, it is just harmonics.

OK Gerard, you got me there, the rifle IS bedded under the knox form (All of mine are) but how is this incorrect? I thought this was established methodology!

Sorry we are way off topic...

Saaed,

Very interesting to see that the groups stayed the same. So basically what this means is that you have a certain margin you can play with but the moment you go out of that it is total chaos.

And with the point of impact moving away slowly for the different bullets it just shows how important it is to buy and reload the same batch.

Warrior,
Alf shot good groups with his 7x57 and he also has rifles that will not group with Rhino. He has killed many animals with Rhino and he had bad failures with Rhino. jnd says "I can tell u that I tried out 13 other ammotypes including the 250 grains RHINO but my gun didn´t like those." The only ammo that rifle will shhot a group with is that one particular load he shows at the start of this thread. A good rifle will shoot several loads reasonably well and may not be good with a minority of bullet brands. His is the other way around and if it was my rifle I would have it checked out. Mr. Millan tells of numerous failures of Rhino and the guy in Magnum magazine is unhappy as well. You say you have good results and you shoot 11mm groups and have knocked over many animals and 500grains says the rhinos worked ok on game but he is getting rid of all the Rhinos he bought. Spring Trap and Geko had failures and Wink is happy. Bulldog563 thinks they are badly made and cchunter likes them and keithv35 hopes they will be ok because he bought a bunch he has not used and Safari-Hunt is happy with them.

Does all this not point to a lack of consistency? If a manufacturer of pistons or valve guides or gasket sets had a variety of results like that I would not use the parts to build a road car engine let alone a performance engine. I have only one rifle and I do not hunt often enough to risk using stuff that may or may not work any more. I would rather use stuff that costs the same but have a track record that I have seen for myself and that are used by three of my freinds for years without failures. Go ahead and have the last word I know what it will be I had to look up tautology too.

quote:

Originally posted by Rat Motor:
jnd says "I can tell u that I tried out 13 other ammotypes including the 250 grains RHINO but my gun didn´t like those." The only ammo that rifle will shhot a group with is that one particular load he shows at the start of this thread.

Well Rat Motor what you dont know is how the other bullets were grouping.
The majority of them qualified well in for hunting purposes, but if you have the benefit of trying them all out, why not use the one that performed best.

And by the way, it wasn´t me who started this thread.

I am about to order another 300 bullets from Kobus today or tomorow just waiting for confirmation of one of my clients.

All 270gr 375.

We only hear the bad reports on AR but we dont hear the 1000's upon 1000's of other people who is satisfied with rhino or any other bullet make for that matter. Just because 1% of people dont like rhino now the whole world has to know about it.

I know that we have new technology that makes better bullets everyday. I'm not saying that rhinos are the ultimate and so can nobody else but I like lead bullets I know that the new Barnes is basically the best bullet out there at the moment when it comes to paper. But damn those four petals with the bonded lead just looks so good and I can just imagine what it does inside an animal when they are going at full rpm.

The smallest caliber expereince I have with Rhino is 308 and a 150gr bullets which worked just great. Maybe rhino doesnt work in smaller calibers to great like 243. But nobody can say that they are not indestructible. As the guy in Magnum says 30 animals and not one bullet found. BTW he never mentions that he needed more than one shot on the game.

So why all the fuss if everybody was the same and shot the same rifle, caliber and bullet we could have called ourselves Communist ! Luckily we have our own choice and our own voice.

Pete,
You have a PM.

Bullets diameter - 0.3750

1. 1.151
2. 0.585
3. 0.869
4. 1.041
5. 1.293

Bullet diemeter - 0.3740

1. 0.756
2. 1.017
3. 0.526
4. 0.492
5. 1.317

Bullet diameter 0.3730

1. 1.034
2. 3.149
3. 1.045
4. 1.110
5. 1.777

Bullet diameter 0.3720

1. 0.959
2. 1.577
3. 0.716
4. 0.537
5. 1.239

Bullet diameter 0.3755

1. 0325
2. 0.883
3. 0.738
4. 0.867
5. 0.698

quote:

That all your other bullets go straight to the bull, but that the 120 gr GSC HV bullet goes 30 cm to the right mesmerizes me. If it was not a tornado or a hurricane then there is a serious screw loose.

Just for the record, I need to point out that the above statemennt can never be construed as an attack on the HV bullet. It needs a quantum leap in paranoia to come up with such a thought.

If it is plain and simple barrel harmonics, then surely it does not point to the bullet. I am quite convinced that when a Std 3 pupil read the above statement, he would blame the wind and not the bullet, as 30 cm (12 inches)to the right is an outrageous drift off the centre line. I have never seen, read or heard about such a drastic result before, hence my astonishment.

Warrior

Gerard.
Could you please tell me in what post i said that you were posting as SpringTrap.

jnd,
on 30 April you asked ST

quote:

SpringTrap.
Since you have trashed almost every bullet here, what bullets do you use, and have you checked their uniformaty ?

He replied:

quote:

I use only GS Custom bullets from my .222 right through to my .375H&H Magnum and all the other 3 calibres (.243, .270 & 300WM) in between.

You immediately asked him:

quote:

Could it be so that you are the owner of that company ?

I answered the question because people often think that I am the owner of GS Custom Bullets. The business actually belongs to my daughter Gina and neither of us post as Spring Trap. I think it absurd that you should think that myself or Gina would post comments about other products anonymously. In asking the question, you involved GS Custom in the allegation and received an answer.

Your earlier comment that "some other manufacturer" is paying contributors to say bad things is as far fetched. There is no conspiracy here, just opinions and, if they differ from you, that is what discussion is about, not so?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

I answered the question because people often think that I am the owner of GS Custom Bullets. The business actually belongs to my daughter Gina and neither of us post as Spring Trap. I think it absurd that you should think that myself or Gina would post comments about other products anonymously. In asking the question, you involved GS Custom in the allegation and received an answer.

Your earlier comment that "some other manufacturer" is paying contributors to say bad things is as far fetched. There is no conspiracy here, just opinions and, if they differ from you, that is what discussion is about, not so?

Well Gerard I ain´t gonna take this any further, a simple NO from SpringTrap had done it for me.
As for the payed off thing, stranger things have happend in the world.
I´m gonna shoot my RHINOS and be happy with that.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Bullet diameter 0.3755

1. 0325
2. 0.883
3. 0.738
4. 0.867
5. 0.698

This seems to suggest that a driving banded-bullet that is .0005" larger than groove diameter shoots best in Saeed's rifle ... assuming his groove diameter is .3750".

Makes sense to me. Better over-sized a wee bit than under-sized by a bunch.
Consistency helps too, so now back to Gerard's guidelines. I am sure the GS Custom bullets are in compliance.

Jnd,

The question was previously raised about solids being 1-thou under spec, as some manufacturers prefer to do so as to bring pressure levels down. With Saeed's test, it seems that it does not make any material difference in the accuracy stakes. No question that uniformity and concentricity are more important in precision shooting, but at practical hunting ranges all we need is a 1-MOA grouping and Bob is your uncle. Then the skill of the hunter takes over with variables such as:

1) Shot placement (missing the vitals)
2) Incorrect Zero distance for the terrain
3) Incorrect range estimation
4) Pulled shots (bad triggers & recoil anticipation)
5) Taking Maverick shots (shoot in the running, etc)

For Rhino users: The Rhino Solid Shank bullet that is classed as a "Soft" should actually be loaded as if it is a Solid, as the solid rear end (its bearing surface) encounters the same resistance as a mono-metal solid without grooves, ito engraving resistance. Therefore they are better loaded 1.5 to 2.0 mm's away from the lands, as opposed to close to the lands. I do exactly the same with my long-for-caliber .284/175 gr Barnes-X bullets and they shoot well. Even with the new TSX bullet from Barnes I would start out at 1.5 mm's away from the lands.

Jnd, tell us about which 13 bullets you evaluated. I will also send you a copy of the tests that I conducted that I plan to publish shortly in one of the hunting magazines.

Warrior

The 9,3x62 factoryloads that i tested in my benelli are.

NORMA:
Oryx 15 gram
Oryx 18,5 gram
Vulkan 15 gram
Swift A-frame 16.2 gram
Alaska 18,5 gram

LAPUA:
Mega 18,5 gram
Naturalis
Naturalis LR

Blaser:
CDP 18,5 gram

SAKO:
Hammerhead 18.5 gram
Barnes X 16.2 gram

RWS:
TUG 19 gram

RHINO:
Solid Shank 16.2 gram
Solid Shank 19.44 gram

The majority of the tested ammo was clearly acceptable for hunting purposes with a semiautomatic rifle 1,5-2,5 inch at 100 meters.

And it will almost only be used on moose.

quote:

With Saeed's test, it seems that it does not make any material difference in the accuracy stakes.

The largest group shot with under size bullets is 3.149" and the largest group shot with correctly sized bullets is 0.883". Below is a rendering of what the groups would look like. Discrepencies of such a magnitude would get my attention rapidly but to Chris (Truvelloshooter/Warrior) it makes no material difference.

quote:

Originally posted by Rat Motor:
Hey Warrior, that Somchem reloading book is very interesting. They have a lot to say about what a good bullet should be like but talk only about accuracy. As they say a difference in weight is not that important and they give it a minor importance rating. The major ratings they mention are concentricity of the the main body of the bullet and and concentricity of the base. They say about the base of the bullet:

Maybe this is the problem if you look at the picture 500grains posted.


The other major factors they talk about are diameter and hardness and bearing surface. This photo shows a lot of variation in bearing surface length and that is a major thing according to Somchem.


All this makes a lot of sense because uniformity in weight and shape and resistance plays a big role in the blueprinting of a performance engine.

What worries me more than accuracy is what happens when the bullet hits the animal and that is where reliability is most important and lacking badly if the experience of contributors here is anything to go by. To start with I found it difficult to hit plains game reliably with bullets that shoot 100 mm flyers every third or fourth shot at 100 m. And then there is that sinking feeling when you hear the bullet hit and the animal takes off and just keeps going.

"Any non concentricity will cause serious problems during separation stage - muzzle exit." The same is true about the crown at the muzzle on the barrel. Both conditions cause an uneven pressure load on the bullet base.

Getting everyone to agree on this has about the same chance as us all agreeing that the perfect all round rifle for PG is a shilen barrelled pre'64 actioned wooden stocked, steel recoil pad, 3-9 variable 'scope toting item. Not gonna happen.
Up front, 500grains expressed his conclusion on the rhino bullet. We all have similar conclusions based on experience with a myriad of bullets.
In my 30-06 I used to use Sierra 180gr SPBT, they worked fine. Then I bought some of the new nosler (about 1977) partitions and ended up chasing gemsbok all over the kalahari because they acted like solids.
Went back to Sierra a few years back and found they broke up badly, the animals still died, so did the bullet fail?
I used barnes when they fisrt came out and had a nasty experience with an eland. I now use barnes xxx and they work fine.
My hornet shot sako factory ammo into sub moa. I started to reload and had a hell of a time trying to get the sucker to shoot straight. Gerhard sold me some of his bullets and they were even worse. Eventually I found that using remington jet bullets I settled into the groove.
My 6.5x55 also perfored well with Sako and Lapua factory ammo. It was relatively ok with Sierra but after one winter and 12 impala with fragmented bullets inside I stopped using them. GS again tried and shot all over the place. I managed to scavenge a batch of Sako bullets from a friens and that's what I use in it.
My 308, I was given a few thousand PMP 155gr Palma match bullets by an old Bisley shooting buddy. He was a fanatic and sorted them out into batches by weight. Any time I want to feel good about a group I go out and shoot bugholes with the rifle. I have a batch of GS 130gr bullets and initial testing shows both my sons 308 and mine like the bullet, they shoot 3/4moa with the first test so we will give it a whirl this season. I will aslo be giving his 150gr a whirl in my 'o6 out of curiosity.
My 375 I have settled on the barnes xxx 300gr. It performs well, groups well. Fortunately the CS game ranger practice bullets i have a batch of shoot to the same point of impact at 100m, so I have a wad of practice ammo. I had a client out at the end of last season for buff, his first round was a 300gr Barnes xxx and it was low in the brisket. When we tracked the buff down several hours later, he put a rhino 300gr solid into its withers as it dissappeared around a bush and as it came out the other side I hit it with a 300gr Rhino solid behind the shoulder. It ran a few more paces and dropped, my client was using a Ruger #1 and since he had not yet completed his reload I shot it again twice in the neck as it was trying to get up. (BTW, this was an agreement with the client)
What was interesting was that none of the 300gr Rhinos exited even at the relatively close distance of approx 20m. I have bought some of GS Customs 300gr solids to try out this season.
My 500 on the other hand, I use Woodleigh softs and GS custom Solids. Both perform superbly, I can print 2 holes touching at 65m if I do my bit and they work well on the animals I have shot.
So if it works, use it, if it doesn 't, use it for practice

500 Grains,

The Rhino Solids that you measured were:

Bullet with biggest diameter: .3749
Bullet with smallest diameter: .3741
Extreme spread is therefore: .0008 (The difference is in the 4 th decimal)
Concentricity variance per bullet, you say is .0005 (again in the 4 th decimal)

Saeed did his tests essentially to the 3 rd decimal from .375 to .372 and found that this category was good for hunting. The difference of 1-thou below spec (ie .374) thus proved to be no problem at all. Looking again at your measurements of the Rhino Solid, we see they are all within .8 of a thou, and should thus not present a problem. Nobody but nobody makes bullets smaller than 2 or 3 thou and can thus be considered as a non event. According to Saeed's groupings, it follows then that there must be another reason why you got a 9-inch grouping, which was not even achieved by a bullet being 3 thou under spec.

The position is this, Kobus from Rhino is not aware of anybody that ever achieved your horrific grouping and that must be contrasted with what other people achieve in their rifles. If they gave similar horrific groupings, then I think we can put the blame squarely on the bullet. If not, then we have to explore the many other potential factors that could be the cause. So, very special circumstances must exist in your case. Just like we have seen that a HV bullet could print 30 cm or 12 inches to the right of the centre line - supposedly also very special circumstances ... as explained by Gerard, that the first 2 inches should not be bedded, which is then indicative (as from now) that the gun industry and gunsmiths should be adjusting to this phenomenon. However, if bedding of the first 2 inches is that critical, one would expect a definite warning to that effect in the reloading guidelines.

I will ask Kobus to solicit his customer list, and ask some willing individuals to shoot a grouping for us that could be posted here. This in no way denies the result that you got Dan, it would simply address some of the issues under discussion here, as to what lee-way we have in tolerances in a hunting application. I think this would be a fair attempt to get more clarity.

Gerard,

You went to some length to draw a picture, which is firstly not relevant nor truthful of what I said. I said a number of times that for hunting purposes one should feel comfortable with grouping of 1 to 1.5 MOA for shots out to 200 yds, but for longer shots out to 400 yds, one should aim for something better such as .5 to .75 MOA. Please go back in this thread (but put your reading glasses on before doing so), and then you will see that I have given this guideline a number of times. In fact, I went further to list all the other factors that are actually even more important as far as accuracy is concerned, and those items generally trip hunters up more often than not.

Skewing what I said gets my attention immediately, but obviously not yours or you are simply being wilful for the sake of puting another 2 cents into the basket.



Warrior

quote:

Nobody but nobody makes bullets smaller than 2 or 3 thou and can thus be considered as a non event.

This is true. It would take very expensive equipment to make bullets that small. Drilling a barrel and rifling it for such a small bullet would also be very difficult and even more expensive. Loading the ammunition would probably require incredible dexterity and would have to be done under large magnification.

If you meant nobody makes bullets that are 2 or 3 thou under size, you have not measured a lot of bullets. I can assure you it happens more often than what you can imagine.

quote:

Just like we have seen that a HV bullet could print 30 cm or 12 inches to the right of the centre line - supposedly also very special circumstances

In Pete's rifle, the group shot with HVs was very tight and moved 12" right at 200m. This would be 6" at 100 (give or take a bit) and, if a rifle is prone to it, it is no special circumstance. It is quite common when changing to a completely different bullet weight and type of construction, let alone changing from a smooth bullet to a drive band bullet. Your agenda/inexperience is making you look like a fool again.

quote:

However, if bedding of the first 2 inches is that critical, one would expect a definite warning to that effect in the reloading guidelines.

You do get some harebrained ideas!! Why would gunsmithing procedure be included in reloading manuals? That kind of information belongs in a gunsmiths manual.

quote:

that the first 2 inches should not be bedded, which is then indicative (as from now) that the gun industry and gunsmiths should be adjusting to this phenomenon.

Gerard,

So the question is, if it truely belongs in a gunsmith's manual, and it is one of those critical elements, does this item in fact get discussed in the manuals of gunsmiths around the world?

My take would be that this is unigue thing with your bullets only then, as this issue has never come up here on AR with any other bullet, including those that copied your drive band system. Don't get me wrong, I like the drive band system, what intriques me is your explanations to certain events.

I have a feeling that when a bedding job is done by gunsmiths, it would be bedded the standard way to get an even surface throughout, just like Pete's rifle was done by his gunsmith.

Incidently how was the distance of 2 inches derived and is it the same for all calibers or is there a mathematical formula how one can calulate it? Or is this merely a trial and error thing in which case the 2-inch theory is a flexible concept?

Warrior

quote:

If you meant nobody makes bullets that are 2 or 3 thou under size, you have not measured a lot of bullets. I can assure you it happens more often than what you can imagine.

Gerard,

Please give us some examples of these bullets so I can verify some of your observations. Otherwise, it is just another convienient piece of


Warrior

So many mistakes.......so little time.

quote:

So the question is, if it truely belongs in a gunsmith's manual, and it is one of those critical elements, does this item in fact get discussed in the manuals of gunsmiths around the world?

Yes it does get discussed very often. There are a variety of different methods to bed a rifle. Some makes tend to favour certain techniques, but no single technique is absolute for any particular make. Having glass bedded more than 1000 rifles, I have found that the least successful technique is the one where a section of the knox is also bedded. It is the easiest one to do though.

Gale McMillan says "I use electrical tape to tape off the recoil lug with two layers of tape on the sides, bottom and front side of the recoil lug. Tape off the barrel with several layers of tape so that when finished there will be an even free floating clearance between the barrel and the stock."

He only beds Mausers with some bedding under the first section of the barrel and, no doubt, he has found, as I have, that often that is only a starting point. If it will not shoot, I used to take the bed out from under the knox and add fore end pressure. See the article here.

Another opinion is: "Unless the rifle is used for short range shooting, as hunting deer in the woods of West Virginia where shots over 50 yards are unusual, I suggest floating the barrel and relieving the action.

We will tape the bottom half of the barrel circumference to increase its horizontal diameter by 0.05 inch. On the bottom of barrel run one piece of tape from front of recoil lug to the tape band you applied just forward of forend tip. Uniformly add layers of tape until 0.05 inch has been added to barrel from front of recoil lug to forend tip."

If reading all this new stuff gives you a headache, here is an article with pictures that shows a free floated barrel and is easy to understand.

Harold Vaughn is quite clear on this in Rifle Accuracy Facts. One should avoid bedding across the barrel action joint. Brownells discusses the various methods in the Acraglas instruction sheet and has excellent advice.

quote:

My take would be that this is unigue thing with your bullets only

Because it suits your agenda of slander, no doubt. My take is that you have only ever seen one kind of glass bedding and now you think that is the only method to use. That is sad, such a lack of knowledge.

quote:

what intriques me is your explanations to certain events.

Now that your ignorance has been exposed once again, you can take that BS pole, stick it up your nose and wave it around in the cavity where a normal person's brain would reside. You do not even know that you know not but you blunder forth on subjects in which you are woefully short on knowledge.

quote:

Incidently how was the distance of 2 inches derived

The classic Triple Hornswoggle again. Pretending that I said something that I did not. On 2 May I said: "We see it mostly with rifles where the bedding of the action incorrectly includes the first inch or two of the barrel, with the rest of the barrel free floated." You are the one with the usual comprehension problem who said: "However, if bedding of the first 2 inches is that critical," and: "that the first 2 inches should not be bedded," so stick that comment up your nose as well. There seems to be enough room for it in that cavity.

quote:

Please give us some examples of these bullets so I can verify some of your observations.

I took some bullets that were on the loading bench that customers had trouble with recently and measured them for you, just to see you squirm.

This one is supposed to be used in a .303 and measures 7.878mm


Here is a 7mm bullet that is marginal for a 7mm Mag, way under for a 7x57 and unusable in a 275 Rigby.


How is that empty cavity feeling now with the BS pole flapping around in it?

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
500 Grains,

The Rhino Solids that you measured were:

Bullet with biggest diameter: .3749
Bullet with smallest diameter: .3741
Extreme spread is therefore: .0008 (The difference is in the 4 th decimal)
Concentricity variance per bullet, you say is .0005 (again in the 4 th decimal)

Saeed did his tests essentially to the 3 rd decimal from .375 to .372 and found that this category was good for hunting. The difference of 1-thou below spec (ie .374) thus proved to be no problem at all. Looking again at your measurements of the Rhino Solid, we see they are all within .8 of a thou, and should thus not present a problem. Nobody but nobody makes bullets smaller than 2 or 3 thou and can thus be considered as a non event. According to Saeed's groupings, it follows then that there must be another reason why you got a 9-inch grouping, which was not even achieved by a bullet being 3 thou under spec.

The position is this, Kobus from Rhino is not aware of anybody that ever achieved your horrific grouping and that must be contrasted with what other people achieve in their rifles. If they gave similar horrific groupings, then I think we can put the blame squarely on the bullet. If not, then we have to explore the many other potential factors that could be the cause. So, very special circumstances must exist in your case. Just like we have seen that a HV bullet could print 30 cm or 12 inches to the right of the centre line - supposedly also very special circumstances ... as explained by Gerard, that the first 2 inches should not be bedded, which is then indicative (as from now) that the gun industry and gunsmiths should be adjusting to this phenomenon. However, if bedding of the first 2 inches is that critical, one would expect a definite warning to that effect in the reloading guidelines.

I will ask Kobus to solicit his customer list, and ask some willing individuals to shoot a grouping for us that could be posted here. This in no way denies the result that you got Dan, it would simply address some of the issues under discussion here, as to what lee-way we have in tolerances in a hunting application. I think this would be a fair attempt to get more clarity.

Gerard,

You went to some length to draw a picture, which is firstly not relevant nor truthful of what I said. I said a number of times that for hunting purposes one should feel comfortable with grouping of 1 to 1.5 MOA for shots out to 200 yds, but for longer shots out to 400 yds, one should aim for something better such as .5 to .75 MOA. Please go back in this thread (but put your reading glasses on before doing so), and then you will see that I have given this guideline a number of times. In fact, I went further to list all the other factors that are actually even more important as far as accuracy is concerned, and those items generally trip hunters up more often than not.

Skewing what I said gets my attention immediately, but obviously not yours or you are simply being wilful for the sake of puting another 2 cents into the basket.



Warrior

Chris,

I think there are other variables at play as well, such as different bullet diameter at different points on the bullet shank, lack of square bases, and lack of concentricity.