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Since I have actually shot a bear coming in on us while working a moose kill with a handgun I can attest that he hit the ground spread eagle at the shot. I was useing a 475 Linebaugh with a 390 grain flat point hardcast at 1350 fps. FPE is irrelevant, penetration and wound channel are realevent. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Along with shot placement. | |||
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Proper shot placement is a given. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Since the bear was not recover it is all speculation on where the bullet hit and what it did. I have tracked hundreds of shot big game animals and heard many times that they were double lunged,shoulder, heart shot ect. To only find out that they were not. | |||
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Exactly. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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A few years ago I read an article in the Anchorage newspaper about a guy who was running on some back road, for exercise, and was charged by a very lean brown bear. It was a predatory charge since it was determined the bear was starving due to some previous injury. The man had a large cal pistol and dispatched the bear promptly, as I recall.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.475_Linebaugh The .475 Linebaugh is an extremely potent rimmed revolver cartridge developed by John Linebaugh in the late 1980s. The cartridge is based on the .45-70 Government case cut down to 1.4 inches and loaded with .475-inch-diameter (12.1 mm) bullets weighing from 320 grains (21 g) to 440 grains (29 g). Although the .45 Silhouette cartridge is also derived from a .45-70 trimmed down to 1.5 inches, the .475 Linebaugh saw the same case modified to accept .475 caliber bullets, resulting in significantly different ballistic performance. The then-new .475 Linebaugh was first announced in the May 1988 issue of Guns & Ammo in an article written by Ross Seyfried. The .475 Linebaugh is primarily intended for hunting big game or as a backup when confronting dangerous animals. A 370-grain (24 g) bullet starting out at 1,495 feet per second (456 m/s) develops 1,840 foot-pounds force (2,490 J) of energy, and a 440-grain (29 g) bullet at 1,360 feet per second (410 m/s) develops 1,800 foot-pounds force (2,400 J). In comparison to another popular magnum revolver cartridge, the .454 Casull, the Casull's 300-grain (19 g) .454 caliber bullet at 1,650 feet per second (500 m/s) and 1,800 foot-pounds force (2,400 J) of energy is surpassed with the Linebaugh's loading of a 370-grain (24 g) .475 caliber bullet at 1,495 feet per second (456 m/s) and 1,840 foot-pounds force (2,490 J) of energy. The .475 Linebaugh and the .454 Casull are ballistically similar and both can also be loaded to higher pressures, but the .475 Linebaugh still has an edge on the latter. As with most large magnum revolver cartridges, the .475 Linebaugh produces a significant amount of muzzle blast and felt recoil. In 2003, Ruger introduced a new cartridge called the .480 Ruger, which is essentially a shortened .475 Linebaugh that operates at 4% lower pressure, 48,000 vs. 50,000 for the Linebaugh. This results in a more comfortable shooting experience with only a minor loss in performance. Just as the .38 special cartridge will chamber and fire in revolvers chambered for the more powerful .357 magnum, the .480 Ruger will chamber and fire in revolvers chambered for the .475 Linebaugh. However, as the pressures show, the two are much closer in power than are the actual "Special" cartridges compared with their "magnum" counterparts. The .475 Linebaugh remains a relatively obscure cartridge, no doubt owing in part to the introduction of Smith & Wesson's more powerful .460 S&W Magnum and .500 S&W Magnum cartridges, .500 S&W being the most powerful handgun cartridge in the world to date. ================================================== https://www.beartoothbullets.c...tors/php/density.htm Sectional density of 0.247 with a bullet weight of 390 and diameter of .475" Sectional density of 0.238 with a bullet weight of 350 and diameter of .458". Sectional density of 0.272 with a bullet weight of 400 and diameter of .458" Sectional density of 0.289 with a bullet weight of 350 and diameter of .416". Sectional density of 0.330 with a bullet weight of 400 and diameter of .416". =============================================== Obviously what we need is a 416 SOCOM.  ===============================================
The 458 SOCOM Buffalo Bore factory ammo, with 405 gr FN hard cast bullet runs at 1675 FPS MV https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-flat-nose-box-of-20 Sectional density of 0.247 with a bullet weight of 390 and diameter of .475". @ 1350 fps = 1579 ft lbs ME Sectional density of 0.276 with a bullet weight of 405 and diameter of .458". @ 1675 fps = 2523 ft lbs ME http://www.shooterscalculator....t-kinetic-energy.php ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Here are a few more interesting and relevant stats and info: This is the best article I've found on sectional density, and explains its relevancy to this thread: https://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm For giggles: The Brenneke 1-3/8 oz slug Sectional density of 0.180 with a bullet weight of 600gr and diameter of .690". ===================================================== Here is the standard by which I measure all big bear stoppers - plus or minus: Federal Premium Cape-Shok Ammunition 458 Winchester Magnum 400 Grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw Box of 20 https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-bear-claw-box-of-20 MV 2380 fps ME 5031 ft lbs My bear "stopper" minus the scope, plus ghost ring receiver sight: NECG Rear Peep Sight Ruger-Style Base Adjustable Steel Blue $89.99 https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...djustable-steel-blue Remove the aperture and you have a ghost ring.    ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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My wife and I have tented in the Arctic. We always sleep with a compact 12 gauge at my side. OO buckshot in the chamber and slugs in the magazine. We’ve had Tundra Grizzly and wolves around our camp site but never any trouble. They tend to be very timid animals. Proper food storage in your campsite is probably the most important thing to keep in mind. | |||
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I used to tent camp in Alaska, sometimes, but it always made me nervous and I didn't sleep well. I never tent camped on Chichagof Island - too many brown bears. In my younger and more foolish days, I tent camped along the Alaska Highway or the Cassiar Hwy when in transit through Canada. I always had my 870 pump and the Brenneke slugs, but I was still nervous. Once, I chose a camp site in an old gravel pit, back far enough to not be seen from the road. The next morning, as I departed, the Canadian equivalent of fish and game or DNR was adjacent to the gravel trail out, several trucks and men. I stopped to see what was going on. It just so happened that on my way in the evening before, I didn't see the large bear trap. I don't know how I missed it since it was rather large. Anyway, during the night they had caught a big interior grizzly and they were loading it and the trap onto a flatbed. They told me that it was a rogue bear who had been menacing the tourists. I didn't mention that I had camped for the night before about 200 yds up the road. They probably knew. Now, when traveling through Canada, when I tent camp, it's in a provincial or National park campground. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Even then, if you have a shotgun (or any firearm) with you, you are in B-I-G TROUBLE! It's unlawful to bring or transport a firearm across the border into Canada without a special permit. Even so, to keep it handy for personal protection is equally unlawful for even a Canadian citizen, unless in possession of a permit for the firearm, AND a hunting permit in season, with a guide if an out-of-province or territory resident. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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I've done a lot of bear huntin' over the past four decades. Each year, actually, and by times twice yearly. These are all blacks since we don't have grizzly in our Province of Ontario. That's to simply state that I don't trust ANY bear. They are individualistic, smart, crafty and unpredictable. Even the so-called "small" ones. There are an increasing number of human conflicts with bears because of a growing number of both species that want the use of the same resources and territory. But in any such physical encounter, the bear will be the outright winner because of the fact it is his/her home, and they are much, much more agile and powerful with built-in offensive and defensive weapons. I've spent thousands of hours observing, tracking, studying and putting out baits, etc for them. It's the romantic individuals who believe they are safe in hiking, travelling, tenting, fishing or even hunting in the natural habitat of bears who think they don't need to pay attention because an attack could never happen to them. About three years ago a trapper from Sudbury went to check his trap line but didn't return. A search party was sent to find him. They found his off-road four-wheeler still running on a small, remote wilderness trail. Drag marks were found leading from the ATV into the woods where his partially consumed body was partly covered by debris from the woods. The bear was never found. It's assumed he was pulled off the ATV while it was running. Trappers always carry a firearm for dispatching a still alive animal in one of their traps. In Quebec, a hunter was killed by a black bear while hunting. Two sons nearby heard his screams but couldn't get to him in time to save his life. The bear got away unharmed. We live with wilderness not more than an hour's drive away. I NEVER go into any of these areas without some form of personal protection -- even on private property where I've been invited to put out bear baits. ALWAYS, it's a big-bore rifle or 12-gauge with slugs (Challenger out of Quebec -- the original DGS). Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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The black bears are smaller here in the Rocky Mountains. I usually carry my 1911 in 45 Super when out in the woods, but basically keep my eyes and ears open. I see a lot more lions then bears here, but man we have a huge black bear that comes on my deck. He looks like a werewolf. I'll try and post a link Found it https://youtu.be/vOnuMK1dZwI Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Yes, black bears are dangerous. Many attacks are predatory. There are too many incidents to list, and all are tragic. I don't trust a black bear any more than a grizzly, maybe less. It's just that on Chichagof Island, where I have a cabin and where I lived for some time, there are no black bears. Apparently the brown bears ate them all. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada...closed-why-1.4132931 http://articles.latimes.com/1997/aug/17/news/mn-23311 https://vimeo.com/158694786 https://www.readersdigest.ca/c.../rogue-bear-rampage/ https://www.wideopenspaces.com...erica-last-20-years/ ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I don't know if the laws/rules have changed recently. I check every time for the latest when I'm planning a trip through Canada. But I've been through Canada many times with a firearm, particularly my 870 slug shotgun. I declare it at the border, and I've always had the paper work already filled out. I download the form off the net. There is a fee, and technically it's registering the firearm. They always ask how long I plan to be in Canada, and my planned route. While in Canada, I've never been checked, but I don't make a scene out of having the firearm either. I've passed through Jasper and Banff many times and stayed in the campgrounds, with my shotgun in the tent with me. It's been my experience that there is a lot of misinformation about US citizens crossing through Canada with a firearm. I know for sure that pistols and short barrel shotguns aren't allowed. My barrel is 20", and it was legal. I would NEVER try to sneak a gun across the border. Always declare the firearm and pay the registration fee. I would NEVER try to cross the border check station with a firearm without first looking up the latest regs and rules on-line and if any questions remain unanswered, I call and ask questions. When I approach the check station I'm prepared and definitely want to avoid any surprise. I've had my vehicle searched. and the worst thing that happened was they made me throw out some forbidden fruit. I caught more shit crossing back through the US check station than I did on the Canadian side. The guy at the US side asked me if my shotgun was stolen. I said "How the heck would I know? I know for sure that I didn't steal it. I bought it from a pawn shop. Before that, I have no knowledge of its history." The guy got all squirrely with me and said that I needed to have the gun registered through him so he could do a check through his system to see it had been reported stolen. I said that it was already registered in Canada and I had the paperwork to prove it. I showed the paperwork, which had the serial number on it. I presume he could have checked with that info without my approval. He got all flustered and said he didn't care what they did in Canada. I asked that he show me the law that I was required to register with him and he had to review its status of stolen or not. The guy told me to park my vehicle and come inside so he could inspect the gun. I thought he meant that I needed to bring the gun with me, so I took it out of the case and started across the parking lot with it. His supervisor then got involved and practically ran out the door, nearly freaked out. I had the shotgun with the strap slung across my shoulder. He said with a rather shaky voice that I needed to put the gun back in the vehicle and if inspected they would do it there while I was inside, with my permission. I think I got lucky and the guy didn't draw his weapon in me. Anyway, I put the gun away, and went inside. I did not give permission to inspect the gun in the van. I would have let them inspect it in the building, and would not have protested if they said it was mandatory. But they asked permission. Since it was an option, I said no, after clarifying that it was my option. They never showed the law to backup what they were saying and let me pass. I still don't know what that was all about. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I read this with some interest, and frankly, some amazement. I don’t have that much experience with bears compared to many here, but dangerous animals are dangerous animals... To me, rule one is have a gun. A .22 pistol beats bare hands... While I love my big bore African rifles, we are talking self defense here, not hunting or follow up of a wounded bear. My experience so far is bears are rather soft- meaning you don’t need a fancy DG solid or super premium DG type soft. To stop a charging animal dead stop, now, you need to hit the CNS. The animal will be at point blank range heading at you. So, pretty much it’s brain or your getting munched on. A big bore might allow shorter time to incapacitate from a lung or blood vessel hit, but I don’t want to trust that he won’t clip MY brain or major arteries in the seconds to minutes he still is functioning in. Looking at my brown bear skull as I sit here, appearance wise, it’s pretty similar to my lion skulls. The black bear is pretty similar to the hyena skull... both of which are often killed with rifles in the 6.5mm to .30 caliber ranges. So, to me, if you can get 8-12” of penetration, you get to the brain from pretty much any direction on the head. Any reasonable hunting rifle will do this. Small bore ones have a bit of issues with the bullet doing strange reflections on hitting the skull at times, but even the rim fire will make that penetration level at contact distances. So, a shotgun with a slug works (birdshot will do funny things at times, I have seen a leopard skull with a collection of Nickel plated 00 buckshot pellets that deformed and sat next to the skull). Any rifle works, but to avoid deflection of your bullet, 6.5 or bigger anecdotally, and any reasonable self defense pistol with flat meplat solid type bullets will work. For guys who are going in after them, like a guide, who really is poking the bear so to speak, yes a large bore rifle capable of putting a bullet from the butt through the nose is needed... but as a defense shoot, if it turns and runs, you have won, you call the fish cops and let them sort the mess out... you are not sorting out a wounded bear preventing it getting away... Think about it... a handgun is no go in Canada, so what do you think you are more likely to be carrying on your person while fishing? A 6.5# .308 or guide gun; or a 9# .416? I’ve felt perfectly happy with my .30-06 while in bear country in Canada, and have a scandium framed .44 that I’ve had in the lower 48 or Alaska. Both are a bit more than the minimum, but certainly not one of my .416’s as far as what to haul with. Just my opinion here... | |||
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You've been lucky! Filling out forms and declaring you're in possession of a legal firearm (rifle or shotgun) while travelling THROUGH Canada to a US destination is one thing only. But to have a LOADED shotgun in a tent while camping is illegal. Ask about that when crossing the border! I can't even do that (legally) when hunting in my own province. 1/2 hour after sunset, that (mine or yours) firearm must be encased WITH NO LIVE ONES IN THE CHAMBER OR ATTACHED TO THE RIFLE IN ANY FORM! That's not to say, I've never done it, or many other citizens, who live, hunt or work in remote areas. It's done knowingly, however, that the "politically correct police", hopefully, aren't lurking! I've written this SOLELY because I didn't want some unsuspecting non-Canadian to think he/she could legally camp on route to Alaska, from the lower 48, through Canada with a "live" firearm in possession. It must be packed away so as not to be retrieved again until out of Canada. Again, this discussion has gone on in many previous forums: Usually, an American who wants to travel thru Canada with firearms, or camp on route using his firearm(s) for protection. Ask the Immigration officer at the border about such an activity. I know what his answer will be. And, I watch the "Border Security" programs on TV where this sort of thing happens time and again! Most are unsuspecting, who don't know the regs, or interpret them as they want. Not being caught shouldn't be considered as being right. Added to say this: A lot depends on a particular officer of the law. Some are strict, others are more lenient. I have a good friend who was a Conservation Officer. We hunted for many years together while he was employed, and he was very strict over details of the letter of the law. However, that was/is in South/Central Ontario where most of the 13,000,000 citizens live. In Northern Ontario, which extends to the Territories and James Bay, Officers are much less inclined to interpret matters legalistically. I know that from going there for several moose hunts. So, it might well be the case in the far reaches of the North West on route to Alaska... Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Colorado has not gone the way of Canada.....yet. Here in the Colorado mountains on the “Western Slope” I do not go anywhere on trails without either my 1911 10mm carrying 220 grain Buffalo Bore or my S&W 629 .44mag with 250grain keith type bullets. Not that our Black Bears are huge, but they are bears and can get to 300-500 lbs around our area. Of course there are mountain lions out here as well....... | |||
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I can hardly believe it. But, frankly, I've never asked specifically about that. I will ask in the future. I presumed that they knew. In fact on at least one occasion I specifically said that I brought it because I planned on tent camping in the provincial parks and brought the shotgun for bear protection. I've never had the people at the border explain that I had to keep the gun put away. In fact, I load it the first night and it stays loaded until the last day before crossing back into the USA, just in case they want to see it. I do not want to present a loaded gun at the border. I have read the regs and thought I was reading them thoroughly, but I do not recall ever seeing within them what you said. As I said, I have been very discrete with the gun while in Canada. I sneak it from the vehicle to the tent, and watch to see if anyone is within view. I don't carry it around, but keep it handy while occupying the camp site. Under the conditions you stated, the firearm is practically useless while in Canada. I don't know what purpose that serves. I've never been to Ontario either and never plan to. The provinces and territories I've been through are Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia and Yukon, several times, going both ways. I can't recall one trip where I didn't have a firearm with me - loaded for the entire trip, except crossing the borders. During the day, when traveling, I keep it in a plastic hard case. My general practice is to remove it from the case after getting set up at the camp site, but concealed under something like the edge of a tarp, so it's not visible to the casual visitor or passerby, but easily accessible to me. Oh, BTW, I love traveling through Canada. The provincial parks are awesome. The people are nice. All the campgrounds I visited had good spots for a tent. That's not always the case in the State parks in the USA. Most are purely setup for motor homes, trailers or truck campers. Some are hard packed with a cap of small gravel over rocks. Terrible on tent stakes. I used a Dewalt cordless impact driver with 10" lag bolts and washer as stakes to make it quick and easy. some places in the USA even that wont work. My last trip, fortunately I had the forethought to buy the best AAA tow plan. Short story is that I broke down in Skagway AK. They sent a wrecker from Whitehorse and towed me all the way over the pass, through the border, and parked my van at a (recommended) mechanic's shop who I called on my cell phone to make prior arrangements. Then the driver took me to a motel that was dog friendly. It set me back a week waiting for parts and labor. I tried to leave three times, and my rig started running rough again - always at about Marsh Lake. I always managed to cripple back to town. The thing is that that mechanic shop had plenty of opportunity to rip me off, but they didn't. They were very reasonable and helpful, and did their best to fix the vehicle, although failed three times. The third time they put in a bunch of parts and didn't charge me for any of it nor labor. I never fussed at them, nor raised my voice. My predicament was obvious. And they never made me wait long, even putting me ahead of other scheduled work. I doubt that is the way it is at other shops in town. I think I lucked out. It was certainly an unusual experience for me, and could have been much worse. I especially like the Yukon. The campgrounds are usually not full, except for Wolf Creek near Whitehorse. There is usually a pretty lake nearby. And they provide free firewood. All for $12 a night. There are some campgrounds in NW Territory, and Yukon along the Top of the World Highway where they don't allow tent camping - too many bears. In all the provincial park campgrounds they post bear alerts when appropriate. Usually it's a black bear that's been seen. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Here's the link to the bear on my deck and the black bear my son got in N.M. with little Joe Troyer Not grizzlies but both could hurt you. https://youtu.be/vOnuMK1dZwI  Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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SD and FPE are irrelevant numbers. Bullet construction and shape are for more importsnt than calculations. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I've seen that argument before - and respectfully - bullshit. It's a fallacy to claim that one aspect of bullet performance is "more important" than another. And it's not mere "calculations". It's physics man. And physics is NEVER irrelevant regarding ballistics and projectile performance. Some things are constants and others are variable. The constants are the math formulas and results. The variables are numerous, if not infinite. Some are choices and some defy choice. So, the one variable you mentioned, bullet construction, is a choice. There are various designs for different purposes. IMO, many people don't pay enough attention to what the manufacturers say about the design purpose and specs. There are bonded core jacketed bullets and cup and swaged bullets, and cast bullets - hard and soft, in .458, same weight, for example. Each will yield the same sectional density per the math; each will yield the same ft lbs at a given velocity, per the physics, but they will yield far different performances, all else being equal. These are important numbers to compare relevancy. There are many choices to make. Choose too low velocity, or too much, and the outcome will not be optimal. Even the outcome is a choice to some degree. Drive a soft cup and swaged core 400 gr bullet at 2300 fps, and the bullet will explode on impact. Drive a 400 gr Swift A-frame bonded core bullet at the same velocity and it can reasonably be expected to penetrate at least five feet of bear and mushroom to a point and stop and retain 90 + % of its original weight. It's a choice - use a bullet that will most likely explode and not penetrate, or choose one that will most likely poke a big and deep hole. Run the soft bullet within its design limitations, say 1700 fps, and it will penetrate about as good as any, even the bonded bullets at the same velocity. So bullet performance is a combo of things, some controllable and some not. For example, despite best efforts, one may accidently shoot a tree instead of the bear, in the excitement of the moment. That's a variable that really changes everything and can't be predicted or avoided. There's an infinite variety. So, it's important to understand and appreciate the broad scope of factors in bullet performance, bullet construction right up there at the top of the list, right there with the physics. They are all co-dependent factors. Another example - take the Brenneke slug - bullet construction and shape for its intended purpose are just fine. Stop there and every thing is hunky-dory? NOT!!! The physics tell the tale. ME seems good at over 3000 ft lbs. MV seems good at 1500 fps. But a third aspect of physics IDs the limitations if not the problem. The ballistic coefficient BC is about as poor as it gets. So, the astute user of the Brenneke slugs will realize, for large bear, that this is truly a defensive round, for very short range to fully use all the other physical aspects of the slug. Even at fifty yards the thump of the slug is significantly reduced, all due to the poor BC, and its direct effect on velocity. The characteristics of the slug construction are the same at the mussel as they are at 50 or 100 yds. But the performance is totally contingent on velocity being high enough to disrupt tissue and penetrate. That's where the math tells the tale of expectations meeting reality. Another mathematical aspect of the Brenneke slug, the sectional density, tells another tale. Compared to say the 400 gr .458 bullet, the 600 gr Brenneke slug has poor SD. Yet it's proven to penetrate pretty darn good. But again, the astute user of the slug will appreciate its performance dependence on what moderate velocity it is endowed with and the very restricted range limitations. Here's a good article on sectional density, one of your "irrelevant calculations". https://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I've got to call bullshit on your bullshit call. It is obvious that you have little if any direct experience with a 450 to 480 grain 45 caliber flatnosed hard cast bullet with a good meplat at 1200 fps impact velocity versus other nose shapes at higher velocity. BTDT. | |||
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Back on my first trip to Alaska (I believe about 1990). My hunting partner lived in Alaska all his life and only wanted to hunt in some of the most remote areas. We flew into Kotzebue and took a bush plane to a tributary off the Noatak about 125 miles NE of the town. We flew into a small tundra lake in the Brooks range and made camp along that lake. We had a small two man tent which most of us know now is really a one man tent. There was a 20=30 degree rock embankment along the back side of our tent. One night I heard something out side our tent. I reached for my SW 629 and held it on my chest. I finally got up the courage to just say "HEY". What ever it was moved up the rock embankment moving some rocks along the way. My hunting buddy never woke up. You get pretty tired hunting 15 hrs a day in that country. We discussed it the next morning and he asked if I heard any clopping on the rocks and I remembered vividly that I did not. He said it was not likely a moose or caribou. He said you would never have heard a wolf. Up there it left two possibilities. A Griz or a wolverine. Glad what ever it was decided to move on that night. I slept with the 44 close to me from then on. Later I decided a custom (by me) Marlin 20" stainless 45-70 with Buffalo Bore loadings provided me a greater sense of comfort. That is now my tent gun. I do not stay in two man tents with no room to move any longer either... EZ | |||
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No it’s not BS but you are full of BS 350 mono metal flat point 458 solids out penetrating 500 grain 458 round no’s solids happens and proves beyond doubt that SD is irrelevant. If fact it is in the Terminal Performance thread right here in the big bore section of AR. You read like a guy with limited experience that has read too much BS. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I WASN'T inferring that large bears haven't been shot and KILLED by hunters with skills that puts them in the "expert" class OR that large bears even charging ones couldn't/haven't been killed or put this thread into that "esoteric" milieu...JUST that the 458 SOCOM, IN MY OPINION, ISN'T a large bear DEFENSE weapon...thats all...it has the usefulness of a 308 Win, that is it will kill MANY animals when they are peacefully chomping down lunch or even when running for their lives, literally...but I want something a WHOLE LOT MEANER than a SOCOM or my 450 Bushmaster(samo-samo regardless of the "stuff" arguments) when I'm in large bear country...along with my 44 maggy...about all I can "hand-le" now. I haven't killed a large bear or a buf in Africa, don't have ANY inclination to do so...but I have killed ONE small, starving, emaciated black bear yearling that decided to get after me and my dogs instead of running away....one shot with a 38 Sp in my 357 Mag...poor thing weighed less than 100 lbs...he already done some major damage to the dogs home and the garbage collecting bin, plus I've kill a few randy messed up range cattle with various pistols and rifles...I don't have to go kill a large bear to know the size and metal of my balls, or what I can do when some asshole is shooting at me...which I consider a bit more dangerous that a "charging bear". I hope to hell if some "bear" situation happens to come about I have one of my larger cal rifles...from 9.3 to 50 cal and preferably my wildcat 510 Makatak Rigby based toy...6500+ ftlbs, hard cast 525 gr LFNGC SLUGS or my 3 1/2" 12 GAFH 1400 gr, 3 oz deep sea fishing weight, tank killers.   ...but the odds of that happening are basically zip to nil in the real world...only in the online IMAGINATION.   VERY nice shooter there, Boss...EVERY time I view a nice weapon on forums I get all itchy todo another rifle or barrel...Got too many already including several 458's and one magnum, but I still keep dreaming of doing a NICE, FANCY-SHMANCY one instead of the spray painted, switch barrel, cobbled-together-but-works-very-well variety I usually end up with...Hahahahahahbah  Good Hunting and Merry whatever   | |||
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Nothing like a 15 year old question to get diehard gun nuts going back and forth. LOL I wonder if the OP ever had to fire a shot at a polar bear? BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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And you read like a blowhard. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Respectfully I think some here have the wires crossed ! Physics as a science ( philosophy )is simply an attempt to understand and describe our physical ( natural) world to a model ( usually a mathematical model ) Attributes like mass, velocity, shape , form , construction , energy assigned to the projectile based on the physical model chosen to describe what we see and try to explain. The mathematical model may use derivations of basic attributes to aid with description of behaviour. Velocity , Sectional density, energy density , kinetic energy momentum examples of some of these derivations. The physics definitions and relevance of each of these assigned attributes often the first place where ballistics related arguments come apart. Basic definitions and how to correctly apply them a common failing Another important part of the failing derives from the fact that the projectile in motion interacts with its environment example air or a target and the effect of that interaction is misunderstood. The biggest failing comes from a misunderstanding of the physical effect of the physical interaction of the projectile and the target . Wounds are physical reactions to effects of penetration by the projectile. Wound profiles, depth of penetration , wound volume etc all examples of descriptors of this interaction Incapacitation and death are biological reactions to the wounding process. The failing of many terminal ballistics arguments as presented here is that a correlation is drawn between biological effect ie incapacitation and death and projectile attributes and behaviour. The line between velocity, mass, construction, form SD, BC etc cannot be directly drawn to the biology of incapacitation and death... it requires the step we see as the wound. Example: you can have the biggest baddest 45 cal magnum with a ME of 8000 ft pounds and you can shoot the bear in the leg and it will still tear your head off ! Mathematical formulae that try and equate a set of physical projectile attributes with biological effect is the holy grail of terminal ballistics..... it has yet to be found ! | |||
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I am amused at how some people make it complicated, or OTOH try to over simplify. Declaring the physics of it are irrelevant is absurd. One assumes that shooting a bear in the leg is not the intention, and thus irrelevant. It's simple. Take a big enough bullet, built tough enough, with reasonable SD, run it with enough velocity, and hit the target right = dead bear. The above criteria can be achieved with a variety of firearms; personal choice.. After all, mostly we're talking overkill. The probability is DRT with the big bores discussed herein, but not absolutely certainty. Absolute certainty would probably require some sort of firearm and ammo not capable of being shot from the shoulder. In other words, the physics that generate the recoil would probably defeat the purpose. Darn pesky physics. But, if shot in the leg --- oh well, maybe the muzzle blast will kill it.
Physics is not a philosophy. Physics | Define Physics at Dictionary.com https://www.dictionary.com/browse/physics Physics definition, the science that deals with matter, energy, motion, and force. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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At least I have a bit of experience to back up what I post.  i   But by all means continue to run your chops about SD and FPE _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Pardon my ignorance "English not my first language" and perhaps i'm just plain dumb ! Perhaps the forefathers of our modern science had it all wrong when they called it "natural philosophy " What was Newton thinking when he gave title to his book "Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica " | |||
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Call it what you want. Call math a philosophy if that's what you want to do, but that doesn't make it so, regardless of what language you speak.  ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I shall, and thanks for your permission. About all you proved with your pictures is that you have experience at pretending physics has nothing to do with it, all the while it was physics and proper aim that killed all those critters for you; SD and FPE, etc. Carry on. ************* Degenerate 1:1 1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it". "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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You dumb SOB I haven’t pretended anything and I bet I know more physic than you do. You are a dumb SOB if think SD and FPE over ride bullet construction. Hint it doesn’t. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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The original 15.5 year old post was about protection while fishing. My preference, while fishing with waders on and wading in water is a larger bore revolver with a 5.5" or less barrel. In a chest holster that I can adjust to keep the revolver out of the water, at least most of the time. Since a handgun was not an option for the original poster, I would want the shortest legal stainless/synthetic rifle. My choice would be a bolt action, as things get pretty grimy and slimy when I fish. Cartridge would be 375 Ruger, 416 Ruger, or 458 Win in a stainless Ruger rifle. The Ruger Alaskans would be close to off the shelf good. | |||
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 Just for shits ! Its all about SD and FPE ! Construction important yes because it dictates SD and influences FPE. But not essential ! SD = ratio of the projectile's mass to its representative surface area in direction of motion. By virtue of the projectiles mass and velocity it has Kinetic energy (FPE) The kinetic energy is "concentrated " behind the representative surface area. There are threshold values for Energy density , sectional density, velocity to breach the surface of the target. When the projectile impacts the target the target retards the projectile's forward motion by virtue of a force (drag) . This drag force acts on the projectile through its representative surface area. Energy is imparted to the target in the form of mechanical energy, thermal energy and acoustic energy. The latter two small and plays little to no role in the wound profile. Mechanical energy pushes the target material away from the penetrating projectile. If the SD is high drag is low and the energy loss to target is low, when SD is low drag is high and energy loss to target is large. SD is dynamic, because the projectile in in motion. Mechanical energy acts also on the projectile by deforming it, or even breaking it up. Projectile construction manipulates how the projectile will behave when subjected to the drag force. In turn if the projectile deforms , erodes or fragments it's SD changes This SD in turn also influences the "instant drag" per unit of penetration The "wound" in the target is the result of receipt of energy and more specifically the reaction of the target to that gifted energy commensurate with the mechanical properties of the target. SD is central to every branch of our ballistic model ! So is energy ! Bullet Construction is not ! Our ballistics system defines the projectile as a passive kinetic energy penetrator ! | |||
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I can't believe I read this whole thread, even though it has taken me over 15 years to do it!  Rip ... | |||
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I read the title to mean what to use in a bear charge. How much time do you have in a bear charge? How many aimed shots can you get off with a rifle vs wheel gun? Is a howdah pistol a better option than a rifle or wheel gun? Do you want more than one gun? What would you use? Is a lever action backed up with a wheel gun in the same chambering a good option? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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458 win came up tops in published bear protection research this one's for your RIP ! I kid you not | |||
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Real SCIENCE that! Or was it PHILOSOPHY OF BEAR PROTECTION?  Rip ... | |||
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