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As much as I like the .375, for what you want a marlin guide gun in 45-70 with ghost ring peep sight would be my choice of the two options you listed. I would also consider a short barrelled 12 gauge pump, cheap, light, easy to carry, and very effective up close. Maybe a 14 inch barrelled 870 police or Fabarm Martial Proforces. It's not the caliber of the rifle that matters - It's the caliber of the man behind it. | |||
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Most of this story is internet myth. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Cal - Well said! | |||
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It amazes me flat landers will believe shit like this. The dimensions given would place this bear the size of an African elephant! I recall the original story a bit: a hunter in the south east shot a bear. It squared about 10 feet and was quite fat. Estimated weight was 1000-1200 pounds. The hunter is in a photo holding the bear's paw which covered much of his chest but the paw was not held against his chest, but a bit away, to make it look bigger that it was. No human remains were found but a separate photo was posted of a half eaten human from another incident. The reason it didn't make much news here in Alaska is it was just another bear kill. Nothing more, nothing less. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Cal - I was born in Anchorage and grew up hunting up there. There are a few truly huge bears… By in large they are as overblown as cape buff! Jim | |||
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It sounds like a solid 12 gauge with slugs is a good bear protection gun, especially when endorsed by guys living in the bush. I'd think a bonus would be grouse, ptarmigan, & hare for the pot if you carried a few birdshotshells along-as long as you were out in the open & away from bears while pot-hunting! | |||
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Shot & Ball... | |||
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(The bear was just over one thousand six hundred pounds. It stood 12' 6' high at the shoulder, 14' to the top of his head. It is the largest grizzly bear ever recorded in the world.) You do realize this is.....  | |||
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Yes, I've learned that the story is B.S. Still the real guy and the pictures did take out a very big bear with a 338WM. And a 38 pistol would not be a good replacement stopper weapon, as the fictitious part of the story would also illustrate. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Mac is Right. My first pick would be a Browning BLR Model in in 450 Marlin. My second pick would be a 45/70 lever gun. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Of the many folks that love the old 45-70 I have to wonder how many have actually used it on bigger animals? I have seen it used on quite a few elk and a couple of moose and I have never been impressed with how quick it put them down. I have some elk kills on film that are pretty grusome and with properly place hot 45-7o loads and Nosler partitions. But to each his own, and perhaps many have had spectacular success... If I were to opt for a lever gun it would have to be a converted mod. 71 win. carbine in one of the largest of 50 caliber combinations and at a MV of at least 2000 FPS..just my personal minimum..Otherwise I'd rather have one of the new 30-06 mod. 95 SRC carbines with 200 or 220 gr. Noslers. at about 2500 FPS.. I have always wanted a Win. 1886 in a 50-110, or better yet a 50-120 or 140, however big they got just for fun, not for bear.. Another consideration has to be recoil recovery, (one reason I like the 9.3x62 so well,) something that is usually over looked in DG discussions such as this..being able to lay in a barrage has its pluses if you can shoot. But its all campfire talk and most folks have their mind made up, and most folks change their minds on the subject more than a few times over a lifetime!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Just for an FYI, This is what a 10' 4" bear looks like.  NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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I would take my .416 Ruger Alaskan (not yet available when this thread was started as someone had mentioned, and subsequently discontinued) - with the scope removed and loaded with 400 gr RN bullets at about 2300 fps MV - big bad bear medicine.  | |||
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This bear photo I found online is from Pinnell and Talifson's awesome book "Last of the great brown bear men" page 62. I'm guessing this bear is a solid 10 footer. There's a picture of an 11 footer on page 135 with a lever action rifle leaning against the front of his right shoulder (the rifle looks like a 4 year olds toy) which is far more impressive. These are huge, powerful and beautiful animals. Even a 375 doesn't feel very big when up close to them  Merry Christmas, Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I lived and roamed and fished in Alaska for many years, especially on Chichagof Island, the island of the brown bears. I still go there each summer and have a cabin there. I have carried many rifles along the way, not at the same time of course,  including 37f H&H, 9.3x62, 458 WM, 338 WM, 30-06. The 458 is very comforting.But I have graduated to a Remington 870 cyl bore, with iron sights, 20" bbl, loaded with Brenneke Black Magic 3" Magnum 12 GA with 1 & 3/8 oz slugs. they are for protection at close range only, and I've never had to use them. Your first line of defense in bear country is be very aware of your surroundings, keep alert, and try to stay out of harms way - for example, I don't walk a tight trail along a salmon stream in July. There are better ways and places to catch a fish. Anyway, a reliable shotgun with sights, or good red dot, loaded with the Brenneke 1 & 3/8 oz 12 ga 3" slugs is a very good choice. Be aware, that not just any slug will be okay. Only the Brenneke slugs are okay, IMO. In Canada, they have restrictions on barrel length - 20" as I recall. You should check first. A pump shotgun seems to be much easier to get past customs, in my experience, than a rifle. At least it has been that way for me, They hardly ask questions. I have the paperwork already filled out when I cross the border and pay the registration fee. Regarding the question about the 458 SOCOM - I'm assembling one now and almost have all the parts. I see no reason the AR 15 in 458 SOCOM wouldn't be a good choice, say in Alaska. But it would be a poor choice if planned to use in Canada. They may not even let it in the country since it's an AR15, and besides they are usually 16" barrel length - too short for Canada laws. Plus, I would have to test my rifle a lot and become very confident about its function before trusting it for bear protection. It has to feed flawlessly. Plus, you have to be very careful with bullet selection. Use a tough bullet, with some weight but not too much. Velocity is important but so is penetration. No more weight than 400gr, at max velocity. The buffalo bore factory loads ought to be good. Barnes 350 gr TSX too, but it may not expand well at SOCOM vel. Hornady used to make a tough 350 gr RN which was quite tough and ought to expand enough but not too much at 1700 - 1800 fps. the Remington and Speer 405 gr bullets are too soft, FYI. I don't know if I'll use mine in Alaska. It's too soon to tell. It's for fun, not for bears at this time. Maybe later. The pump shotgun with the Brenneke slugs are a no-brainer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRHmDaDnwDU ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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perfection. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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The only problem I see with shotgun slugs has always been sectional density. A rifle bullet of nearly the same weight and velocity well have a much higher SD that should give better penetration. Because one has to aim both to hit I prefer rifles with the better sectional density. A rifle like the 416 Ruger would be high on my list. | |||
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Did you see the video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRHmDaDnwDU Nonetheless, you are correct about the sectional density, especially a 400 gr 416 bullet. For actual hunting the big bears, I wouldn't choose the shotgun. It's for close range only. A good 416 bullet, like maybe the swift 400gr running at 2300 FPS - can't do much better than that. It's probably in the class of bear stopper - dump um on their nose. There are several things to consider. The shotgun is less expensive and available in many makes including semi-auto, and the reliability is plenty good. The ammo is readily available - the BLACK MAGIC 1 and 3/8 oz, which BTW is 600 gr at 1500 fps. It's a close range thing for sure since it loses velocity quickly. I always wanted a 416, years ago, but had a 458 so considered it redundant. I have shot the 458 with 400 gr bullets a lot, such as the swift and bear claw at about 2300 fps. They kick - hard - at that speed and in the light carrying rifles I preferred. Judging from the recoil, and some test results, and from some word of mouth from bear guides, this combo will be almost like the 400 gr 416 at the same speed, but the 416 will have a little better SD. I shot a large Alaska moose with the .458 400 gr bear claw, and it went clear through. That's SD wasted. But it was a one-shot kill and it might not be wasted on a large bear. These were hand loads, which adds another dimension to the issue. It takes a lot of testing before handloads in the heavy kickers ought to be trusted. For example, at first the bullets in the magazine were setting back in the case from firing the round in the chamber. The bullet tips were slamming into the front of the magazine. In fact the original factory magazine bent/bowed out in front from the recoil, which is why I got the factory 416 magazine which is thicker. I got a Lee Factory crimp die, and solved the set-back problem. In the 458, I could get 2300 fps (approx.) with a tough 400 gr bullet, loading compressed loads. I chronographed them. I got more velocity than that out of the 350gr Barnes. I considered the recoil fierce. It gutted my 1x4 leupold. I still have my 458. It's Teflon coated by Birdsong, 20" barrel with 20" twist. It has the 45-70 throat, barrel is stainless PacNor, action is the stainless Ruger 77 MKII, The stock is Hogue - takeoff of a factory 416 Ruger. The magazine and follower is from the 416 Ruger also. I don't shoot hot loads any more which is why I have the scope mounted. If I ever go back to hot loads, I have a Picatinny rail to fit and will use a quality red dot scope to avoid gutting the Leupold again and give the necessary eye relief - for old eyes. The reason I had PacNor stamp the words clearly "short throat" is in case someone inherits this rifle from me and hopefully it will send the message - don't shoot factory loads in this rifle. I have never even tried to chamber a factory round and don't know if it will chamber - probably not, but if it did I suspect the pressure would be too much. I had it made for my fun, and to use 45-70 type bullets, 400 gr and less with the 45-70 type ogive, rather than the long 500 - 510 gr .458 bullets. It's basically a 45-70 on steroids, without the feeding issues of a rimmed case in a bolt action. The new and shiny barrel is a new purchase for 458 SOCOM AR 15 build I'm working on and collecting parts. It a Satern from Brownells, 16" carbine length, 14" twist.    ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Real good express sights on my .416 Ruger Alaskan for quick up close work.  | |||
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As MDF45 started this thread in 2003, I hope he is safe and sound back home from his fishing trip in Ontario, without any close encounters with polar bears  But for the record, the MET people, the scientists and crew, and the National Park guides on the Svalbard Islands in the Barents Sea, and on the small island of Jan Mayen between Iceland and Svalbard, use the Ruger M77 MKII in 30-06. The rifle is issued by the Norwegian government. So far the rifle and the cartridge have stood the test for many years. There is a certain difference between hunting polar bears, and using a firearm for protection only. Arild Iversen. | |||
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i do not know but im in Canada and i have shotgun with a 13.5 inches barrel and this is legal if this is a factory barrel. but i will prefer my 375 ruger or 9.3x62. | |||
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Alrid, do you know the bullet they are using and on average the number of shots and bears killed every season? | |||
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There is a lot of opinion and theory about that. I tend to agree with the use of the 30-06, with heavy bullets - for several reasons; Readily available, adequate - minimum, can be handled by those not recoil tolerant and not real comfortable with rifles, off-the shelf ammo, etc. For me though, I still remember that spooky feeling, in the dark alders, anywhere near a salmon stream in summer, or Sitka deer hunting in the muskeg. The quarters were close, and barely time for one shot at a charging bear. I wanted a stopper, but it could be just macho. I had a friend who always used the 300 H&H, in an old Remington. The rifle looked awful and the scope useless - to me. One fall day, he and his wife were berry picking. He walked a ways down a logging road, and was about 100 yds away when a brown bear got his wife and was mauling her something awful. He ran back, with their dog, towards her screams. She and the bear were down in a hollow place, so he could see only the top if its back. He was afraid to shoot for fear of shooting his wife. The dog saved her by biting the bear on the ass, repeatedly. My buddy got up on a high spot, perhaps a log or stump (cutover area), and about that time the bear charged him, head down, ears back. One shot into the shoulder and the bear turned. My buddy put another round up the bear's ass as it disappeared into the berry thicket. He's an old-timer, been living in Alaska most of his life. He's left-handed and the rifle is right handed. He was very familiar with it. They didn't find the bear until next spring - the remains, hair and bones. It had gone about 50 yds and died. Other bears and ravens and eagles had eaten it. His wife was in recovery a long, long time. Infections in addition to the mauling, broken jaw and collar bone, and lots of punctures and tears to tissue. She never fully recovered, but enough to live a good life thereafter. He told me that it took over two years to get past the bad dreams. So, the situations (of a charge - defensive or especially predatory) are almost never clean, where a clean shot is possible. It's a matter of luck and some nerve. I prefer a little extra wallop. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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12 ga. pump shotgun, .375's and the CZ Magnum Safari (because of 5 round mag) mentioned in this article as popular defense firearms. "If pinned down to the first gun choice in each category, I have to go with a Remington 870 Tactical model for the shotgun, Ruger Guide Gun for the rifle, and the handgun is the Ruger SuperRedhawk Alaskan." https://www.realtree.com/guns-...g-guns-for-bad-bears | |||
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medved. I`m not sure about the bullet used, but these are factory loadings, probably from one of the big supplyers, it could be Norma or Sako ? as this is government issue. Rifles are the stainless M77 MKII with open sights and the boat paddle stock. Newer rifles might have the more modern stock version. Bear shot annually are very few if any, and the rifles are used as a last stand. Usually they try to scare the polar bears away with flares or signal pistols. If they keep on coming, killing is the last solution. I have not found any statistics on bear shot, but usually there is a notice on the local TV-news or in the biggest national papers when it happen (small country, big news you know )Tourism is big business on the Svalbard islands, and guided and unguided tours are very popular. Once in a while tourists get mauled or killed by polar bears even if there is compulsory to carry firearms for bear protection. This is open treeless landscape, and polar bears can usually be seen on long distance, which gives you time to act in a way to avoid encounters. Shooting a bear even in self defence trigger truckloads of red tape and investigations. Arild Iversen. | |||
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I've used the Marlin 45-70 a good bit in Africa, it would shoot broadside through kudu and eland, taking ribs each way. Killed as well as anything else I've used there from .308 to .375 h&h. The 45-70 was legally transferred to my Pal there in Namibia. He is over 100 kills with it on Gemsbok, Kudu and Eland, he shoots for a number of farmers freezers. Being a lefty, he thinks it great and doesn't know why they don't bring them into the country more. I'd consider one in bear country. | |||
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I looked on gunbroker and there are many new Rugers in 416 Ruger for sale for around $1,000. Of course there are also lots of Marlin 45-70's for sale. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Sweet little rifle. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Bingo! 535 grain Woodleigh at 1900fps from the 50 alaskan marlin or same bullet at 2100fps in 50-110 in a modern 1886. | |||
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For what it is worth, the short, light Ruger Alaskan rifles in both the 375 and 416 Ruger are popular with Alaskan guides who ACTUALLY DEAL WITH LARGE BEARS ! Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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https://www.gunbroker.com/item/788039298 Custom Win. 71 Deluxe in 450 Alaskan with Dies https://www.gunbroker.com/item/793765820 RARE ION Bond Diamondblack .375 Ruger SS Alaskan https://www.gunbroker.com/item/792667178 Ruger Lefthand Alaskan New M77 SS Lam 375 https://www.gunbroker.com/item/793462977 Savage Arms 116 Alaskan Brush Hunter 375Rug SS LA https://www.gunbroker.com/item/793805796 Ruger Guide M77 Hawkeye 416 Ruger 20" Bolt Rifle https://www.gunbroker.com/item/793643711 Ruger M77 Hawkeye Guide Gun 20" 416 Matte SS NIB ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I like this concept. It is funny that the Lott with the shorter throat might be better to shoot 45-70 bullets.
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I would think the 375 Ruger Alaskan or 416 Ruger Alaskan would be about as good as any with their shorter 20" Barrel. Maybe one of the same calibers in one of the BLR conversions. | |||
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Well, if I have you along with a 9mm Handgun, I won't have to carry the heavy 86 or lighter marlin. I will be quite happy to let you handle the situation.   Unfortuately, if I have to handle this bad situation, I need something that I can shoot quickly and as a second nature, lever action for me. I own Ruger 77's, tang safety rifles, I find the newer versions with the side safety clunky and slow for me to operate. Nothing wrong with the cartridges though. | |||
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For me, it was a matter of what fits the action available. The Lott requires a longer action. And how much velocity is needed? The 458 WM case already drives the soft 400-405 bullets from Speer and Remington fast enough that they practically explode on contact. I have lots of them and plan to try them in my 458 SOCOM when finished. I hope they feed. The velocity ought to be about right. I have loaded my short throat 458 from about 1100 fps, basically sub-sonic, to close to 2500 fps with 350 gr Barnes and Hornady bullets. I've used the 300 gr Barnes SOCOM TTSX but kept the muzzle velocity at about 1800 fps - great accuracy. I was looking for something that feeds slick and sure, and got it. There's another advantage with the 458 case. I found out that there are some powders that produce a compressed load. When loading the bonded core 400 gr bullets or even the Barnes 350 gr, loaded hot if not max, when sitting on top of a compressed powder charge, the bullets will not set back in the case. So with the combo of the lee factory crimp die and compressed loads, that stopped the bullet set-back. I'm not sure what, if anything, that hard crimp with the Lee die does to accuracy. As I recall, it didn't seem to make a difference, and ruin accuracy. But bullets setting back are just not acceptable. With the lighter loads, I did the normal crimp and the loads were not compressed. In other words, with the hot 400 gr bonded bullets, the best loads are compressed loads. That might not work out with the Lott. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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What happened with the Ithaca Road blocker 10 gauge magnum?. Cut down to 18" barrel it would be a handy bearblocker....even with skeetloads.....bearskeeting!...why not?.. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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But they are heavy didn't have that great of a reputation of being overly reliable. I knew a fellow that kept a single shot 18 inch 10ga over is door just out side of Eagle River Ak. For nuisance bears that came into his yard. | |||
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Our friend dpcd put a ss no 3 douglas barrel in 9.3x62 on a LH ss Ruger MK II for me in a factory laminate stock. Dpcd also slimmed down the factory stock and put a nice decelerator pad on it. He tuned the trigger and ensured feeding and ejection. I traded some professional services here with a new client and got a NECG peep sight, a barrel banded sling swivel and a front sight put on it plus cerakote. It sure shoots nice and weighs 8 lbs o the nose with the peep sight. Really like dpcd's work. | |||
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I've been following this thread for a while not saying anything but shaking my head sadly...I don't know about ya'll but I want something a HELLOFALOT HAIRIER than a pipsqueak 450 Marlin or 45-70...and NOT in a levergun...I have at least 8 rifles covering both those cartridges(lever, bolt and SS) and several other larger cals and not even close to what many others can claim. I think a 45-60 cal DOUBLE would be closer to something that MIGHT save my fat, old azz from something the size and build of a pissed-off griz. I agree with some of those who know that we humans got SFB believing the garbage that comes off the web...and TOTALLY mindless when it comes to SAVINGOURAZZES. I'm not even sure my 50 cal Rigby wildcat, loaded to the gills with 500-700 gr slugs in my hands is enough in that scenario...and that God awful beast produces over 7500 #ft ME with 525 Cast WFNGC slugs...and even MORE with 650 gr FMJ's(and dammed near as much recoil).   What will kill a somewhat peaceful, grazing griz, buf, whatever...and what will kill an enraged animal are two very DIFFERENT things, and HOW a hunter handles BOTH is just as varied. But this is MY opinion...I know what I would want/need in BOTH those situations and it AIN'T some la-la land dream levergun thing!!!!!!  Good (and safe) Hunting  | |||
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