I should imagine a cool hand with good marksmanship is 2/3 of the equation leaving the choice of caliber unresolved.

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
What happened with the Ithaca Road blocker 10 gauge magnum?. Cut down to 18" barrel it would be a handy bearblocker....even with skeetloads.....bearskeeting!...why not?..

I actually know of a case where a guy killed a large brown bear, attacking his buddy, with a load of bird shot right between the eyes at about five feet.

Who amongst us has the nerve for that?

The shooter in the incident was a teenager who grew up in rural Alaska, and as a hunter and outdoorsman. His instincts took over, and he had no choice but to shoot, close, since the bear was out to get him too. The only reason he had time to shoot at all was because the bear got his partner first.

They were spruce hen hunting.

I wasn't there, but I got the story from the shooter himself.

I made a habit of interviewing people who were involved in the incidents, to get their story straight from them. I've also interviewed bear guides, but they probably wouldn't call it "interview", since a six-pack was usually involved. I've "interviewed" many native hunters who have had close encounters. I interviewed one native guy who had a brown bear snatch a dead Sitka deer right off his back. It knocked him down but with no injury. The bear only wanted the deer. The bear was gone so quickly that neither he nor his partner had time to get their rifles off their shoulders.

Most, if not all the native guys I knew didn't strap a shot deer to a back pack frame. If they carried a pack, it was a small one. instead they had a technique to cut the hide of the deer's legs and bend the legs at the joints to make a pack out of the deer itself. In the case of the bear snatching the deer, it just broke away the leather straps, and ran. Very quick.

Another native friend, who I hunted with often, told me of an incident where he was down on his knees, field dressing a buck, and looked up to see a brown bear sneaking up on him, doing the belly crawl. My friend stood up, his rifle propped up on a tree about ten feet away - too far - and he started talking nasty to the bear, with a tone of voice careful to avoid high-pitch. He said the old bear stood up, turned sideways, posturing, huffed several times, turned and walked away. That bear was no impetuous youngster. He may have been waiting on the gut pile, with no intent to attack at all.

My hunting buddy said his knees shook so badly that he had to wait a long time to carry the deer out. He said he quit hunting alone after that.

Another friend, a white guy, who was rather athletic, a logger, was mushroom gathering in the deep forest, and unfortunately walked right up on a sleeping bear. he and the bear were so startled, and the bear attacked immediately from about 20 ft. He threw his bucket of mushrooms at the bear's face, and climbed the closest spruce. The bear ravaged the bucket, and the guy held onto the tree till the bear left. He was carrying a pistol, big bore Ruger something, 480 I think, but didn't have time to use it, and chose to not shoot once in the tree.

I know for sure of two times I've been way too close to a brown bear. Once was a sow with cubs. I was deer hunting, in late August, walking and old logging road, being quite. I heard some movement real close, about 20 ft. then I saw some bushes move. I stood real still, rifle ready, but could not see the bear. If she charged, it would have been a five foot shot. Then I saw a small cub running up on a horizontal log, getting higher and more visible with the incline of the log. It stopped and was looking for a way down. I heard the sow "talking" to the cub, in low grunts and tones. That's when I made my exit. She had more than one cub. I could hear movement, but never saw the sow.

Another time my wife and I were berry picking. Or rather she was berry picking and I was watching with my 375 in hand. She wouldn't listen to me, and got further into the bushes. I could see her shoulders and head. I heard something large moving and cracking twigs, about 30' feet from her, and about 50' from me. I called for her to come my way, but she would not listen. I could see the tops of the bushes moving away from her, parting as the bear departed, very quietly. I never saw the bear, and she wouldn't believe me when I told he what happened.

I firmly believe that I've been close to a brown bear many times and didn't know it. I'm very sure they will lay down and let you pass, then resume their way.

Once, I saw a brown bear cross the logging road not far ahead of my truck. I pulled up to where it crossed and looked for it in the bushes, which were not especially dense. I looked for a long time, several minutes, and didn't see the bear. I was about to get out to take a leak, but looked down towards the shoulder of the road. About ten to twelve feet away lay the bear, partially hidden. It was waiting for me to leave, and I was glad to accommodate.

Another time, I had a very old and scarred up gnarly eared boar just act like my truck wasn't even there. He just sauntered by snacking on berries like I was transparent.

When I was a teenager I went out pheasant hunting with my friend who was using a 20 gauge shotgun, while walking through some heavy underbrush he walked up on a 6 point buck at about 10 feet, startled he shot the buck in the head facing him with a load 0f #6 shot, the deer went down and stagger around bleeding fairly well from the face wound, another friend ran over and shot him with a 22 to the brain which killed him, We skinned the head and nothing penetrated the skull just flattened shot all over the skull like little pancakes. His eyed where destroyed. Now this was not a big deer maybe 150 pounds or so. I surely would use it as a last resort but surely would not recomend it as a defense load.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
What happened with the Ithaca Road blocker 10 gauge magnum?. Cut down to 18" barrel it would be a handy bearblocker....even with skeetloads.....bearskeeting!...why not?..

I actually know of a case where a guy killed a large brown bear, attacking his buddy, with a load of bird shot right between the eyes at about five feet.

Who amongst us has the nerve for that?

The shooter in the incident was a teenager who grew up in rural Alaska, and as a hunter and outdoorsman. His instincts took over, and he had no choice but to shoot, close, since the bear was out to get him too. The only reason he had time to shoot at all was because the bear got his partner first.

They were spruce hen hunting.

I wasn't there, but I got the story from the shooter himself.

I made a habit of interviewing people who were involved in the incidents, to get their story straight from them. I've also interviewed bear guides, but they probably wouldn't call it "interview", since a six-pack was usually involved. I've "interviewed" many native hunters who have had close encounters. I interviewed one native guy who had a brown bear snatch a dead Sitka deer right off his back. It knocked him down but with no injury. The bear only wanted the deer. The bear was gone so quickly that neither he nor his partner had time to get their rifles off their shoulders.


Most, if not all the native guys I knew didn't strap a shot deer to a back pack frame. If they carried a pack, it was a small one. instead they had a technique to cut the hide of the deer's legs and bend the legs at the joints to make a pack out of the deer itself. In the case of the bear snatching the deer, it just broke away the leather straps, and ran. Very quick.

Another native friend, who I hunted with often, told me of an incident where he was down on his knees, field dressing a buck, and looked up to see a brown bear sneaking up on him, doing the belly crawl. My friend stood up, his rifle propped up on a tree about ten feet away - too far - and he started talking nasty to the bear, with a tone of voice careful to avoid high-pitch. He said the old bear stood up, turned sideways, posturing, huffed several times, turned and walked away. That bear was no impetuous youngster. He may have been waiting on the gut pile, with no intent to attack at all.

My hunting buddy said his knees shook so badly that he had to wait a long time to carry the deer out. He said he quit hunting alone after that.

Another friend, a white guy, who was rather athletic, a logger, was mushroom gathering in the deep forest, and unfortunately walked right up on a sleeping bear. he and the bear were so startled, and the bear attacked immediately from about 20 ft. He threw his bucket of mushrooms at the bear's face, and climbed the closest spruce. The bear ravaged the bucket, and the guy held onto the tree till the bear left. He was carrying a pistol, big bore Ruger something, 480 I think, but didn't have time to use it, and chose to not shoot once in the tree.

So, the point of our stories, in comparison, is to imagine how close one would have to be for the shot column to act like a solid, enough to penetrate a bear's skull, or knock it dead from the force of the blow.

That's too damn close.

IMO, buck shot is no better.

I've said many times to those who would listen - if you want to piss off a brown bear, shoot it with buckshot, a deer slug, or a 44 magnum.

In the small town where I lived, we had a police chief who dearly loved his ARs, 15 and 10. He killed a few "town" bears with his 308.

Then he got the fancy for a 450 or 500 Beowulf, can't remember which. Then there was a young bear who claimed a gut and hide pile as his own, at the gravel pit close to town. He was menacing anyone who came around. Fortunately no one went out there on foot, but by vehicle.


Ole Chief, along with his native subordinate officer, went out there and the chief shot the bear in the head, as he had done before with his 308. The bear went berserk, slinging its head and splattering blood all over, roaring. Chief's gun jammed. The jr officer finished the job with his 300 mag. Chief got rid of the AR big bore. IMO, the 458 SOCOM would have been better. More SD.

Later, the chief got a Marlin 45-70. That was a good choice. The problem with taking out a "town" bear is it takes a lot of caution and judgment because of what's behind the bear. The last thing an officer wants is a person getting shot as collateral damage.

The native officer was a very good bear killer. Full of shit, but a good officer. They used some sort of night vision devise. Anyway, he shot a very large brown bear in the night with his 300 mag, and it ran into the only main thicket in town. Actually that thicket was the main passageway for bears traveling through town and everyone knew to avoid it, especially at night. The officer had to spend the night in his patrol truck, listening to that bear moan for hours as it died. He had better sense than to follow it in. By morning all was quiet. The bear died during the night.

I have a cabin in that village and spend summers there.

As far as I know, bears have not traveled through my lot and been a problem, except for two years ago. We had a young, long legged dark colored bear (game camera) crossing through at night, We could see his tracks. One night he got into the smoker and fortunately I had a five gallon metal pot, crab boiler, on top of the smoker. When it hit the gravel, it sounded like a load of roofing metal hitting the road. Woke me up. When I got to the deck, I was looking the wrong way. The bear had already ran in front of the cabin. Next day, we set up a booby surprise. We propped up several noise makers, aluminum ladder, metal sheet metal, the pot, etc., all strung precariously with thin fishing line tied to each. Sure enough, that bear came back. This time the noise was really loud, and he roared as he shit himself running, trailing the pot and sheet metal a short distance. He never came back. Later we set up an electric fence.

I hope I'm not boring with my stories of bears, but I really like to reminisce.

For those who are truly interested, here is a documentary on brown bears of Chichagof Island. This is where I lived for several years, and where my cabin is, and where I spend my summers. I recognize many of the scenes and places in this film, and knew the biologist featured in this film. He's one of the people in the world who is the real deal.

If you have an hour, this is a fun and informative film to watch. Note that the biologist uses the 458 WM. The other biologist apparently carries a shotgun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x9n2pafCqY

For a purpose built bear rifle, FIX BAYONETS!!

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
For what it is worth, the short, light Ruger Alaskan rifles in both the 375 and 416 Ruger are popular with Alaskan guides who ACTUALLY DEAL WITH LARGE BEARS !

Well, if I have you along with a 9mm Handgun, I won't have to carry the heavy 86 or lighter marlin. I will be quite happy to let you handle the situation.
Unfortuately, if I have to handle this bad situation, I need something that I can shoot quickly and as a second nature, lever action for me.
I own Ruger 77's, tang safety rifles, I find the newer versions with the side safety clunky and slow for me to operate. Nothing wrong with the cartridges though.

When I know I am likely to have to deal with a wounded bear My preference is still my 458.
But when fishing and hiking in bear country I feel perfectly comfortable carrying a 357 or even 9mm with heavy loaded, hardcast bullets.

quote:

I hope I'm not boring with my stories of bears, but I really like to reminisce.

Not at all! Part of the process of learning for me. I know very little about Brown Bears, so this thread is very educational.


..far better than the Political Crater...

quote:

..far better than the Political Crater...

For sure. Surely, not surly.

It's so tiring over there. It's pleasant here, with like minded people.

That's why I dropped the agitating add-ons at the bottom of my posts. I'm going to try to participate in the other forums here, no stir intended.

BTW, I have shot one brown bear in my life, and hope to never shoot another. It was/is a haunting experience for me. It's a bit of a long story. Maybe I'll tell it sometime.


BTW, I used a 9.3x62. It was more than adequate in that experience. 285 gr Lapua MEGA Handloads. Pass through penetration broadside.

I'm taking a risk here, with a lot of personal info.

But for those who are interested, here's a short story I wrote several years ago. It's one chapter, part of a much bigger story. This is the first time I have exposed it for general view.

It is based on actual true events, time and place. I have fictionalized it by changing names of people and place. But the story is not fiction. I don't know the literary term for it.


================================================

Killing Misha

Narciss loved to pose for her picture to be taken. She was always careful to avoid impromptu pictures, but I managed to get a few anyway, by surprising her. She always watched me when I had a camera handy, to try to catch me taking a picture of her by surprise. It became sort of a game. It was like she wanted to pose like a professional model, with the correct stance and background and all. I have lots of pictures of Narciss posed that way.

In Delian the garbage dump used to be an open pit, and before the State required the site modified, there would be numerous brown bears at the dump, day and night. The bears and people of Delian had a relationship which may be described as sort of respect. Maybe standoff. Anyway, as far as I know there was never an act of aggression from the bears towards the people at the dump site, even though the bears and people were in close proximity many times, every day. These bears were frequent diners and had their hierarchy. Sometimes two dominant boars would want the same spot at the same time, and real drama ensued in the form of all out brawl; rare but it did happen. Mostly it was quiet, except for a few squabbles among themselves. But they didn’t bother people, and I never saw a sow with cubs there, only the big males. The dump was a death trap for cubs. I have seen up to seven bears at the dump at the same time, but when a big dominate boar was on site, he was alone, too grumpy and mean for all others.

Once, when I first arrived in Delian, Don Delian played a trick on me. We were at the dump together, looking at bears, and Don Delian motioned for me to come over for a look. The parking place for the truck was well above the pit below. There was a well-worn trail up the steep embankment, one path where the bears traveled to and from the site. When I stood there at the edge, looking down, there was an enormous bear head right there at my feet, clinging to the rocks in the worn path, looking up at me. It spooked me badly, and I got in the truck and glared at Don Delian who was laughing at me. The point is that bear actually stopped, politely, and waited for me to clear his path, standing less than five feet away, even though the bear was on a slippery slope, just hanging on.

Another time, I made the mistake of walking off the road a little ways in the vicinity of the dump, to take a leak. As I was whizzing away, when I noticed a snoring sound, and looked to my side, and less than twenty feet away lay a very large hump of fur, a sleeping brown bear boar. I departed ever so quietly, letting sleeping bear’s dreams go undisturbed.

A group of tourists and I were watching a group of bears below at the dump, and the bears were all quiet, picking through the garbage and practically ignoring the crowd above. Then a native boy arrived on his four wheeler. When he stuck his face over the edge where the bears could see him, one in particular started making roaring noises, looking up at the lad. The crowd all looked at the boy, and surmised what was going on. The boy had the look of shame, as though being caught at something wrong. He knew that they knew, and the bear had told the story. The native lad had been taunting the bears, and the one was protesting his presence. After the lad left, the bear went silent again.

When I wrote the above, I had to stop and think about what that meant, and consider the plausibility of it. It meant that bear in particular recognized that human face in particular. It could be argued that the bear recognized the sound of the four wheeler, but he didn’t start shouting until he saw the boy. And the bear was communicating with another species. He certainly wasn’t talking with the other bears, but looking straight at the boy and roaring, not threatening, just shouting. That’s stunning. And I believe it is so.

I’m sure Narciss didn’t understand, for a long time, that those bears were wild and potentially dangerous. During her visit in 2004, and during the summer of 2005 she always wanted me to take a snapshot of her posed with a big bruin in the background. That meant that she turned her back on the animal. It always made me nervous, for several reasons. Narciss never took any precaution around bears, no matter how much I warned her. Also, I worried about her going up there with another friend, who wouldn’t be cautious and look out for her. Narciss wanted to actually pet the bears, at least that’s what she said. I figured maybe she was just aggravating me, or spoofing me, but I never really knew that for sure, and spoofing wasn’t her style. I figured there was more than a slight chance that she was serious, and if she was serious, she would try it, unless someone was willing to rush over to grab her, and I was ready for that all the time when near bears. On drives out the logging roads with me, she would sometimes see a mother bear with cubs, and start this goo-goo noise, like she was talking to a baby, and sometimes reach for the door handle to get out of the truck. I would always grab her left wrist, to show that I would hold on to prevent her exiting the truck. She never pulled back on my grip, and took the hint.

In general, Narciss was unreliable around wildlife, almost completely lacking caution. I always made sure that Narciss didn’t see any of the deer I shot. I took them to a friend’s house for butchering. The first she would see of deer was the nice clean little packages wrapped in white freezer paper. Once, during the summer of 2005, we found a deer in the bush right next to where we were picking berries. Narciss started with the goo-goo thing again, speaking Russian in her little Ukrainian girl voice, and got so close to that deer, she could have touched it, and actually reached out to touch, but the deer moved away. I had to run the thing off to keep Narciss from messing with it, and only then did she continued picking berries.

In mid-summer, 2005, Narciss, Olek and I went fishing about 30 miles out a logging road at a place called kennel creek. The name comes from the swarms of dog salmon that spawn there. Chum salmon is another name for them. But we weren’t fishing for the salmon, instead we wanted the Dolly Varden trout that eat the salmon eggs. The trout are decent eating, fresh, but not the best. The salmon are no good for eating when spawning, having begun to rot in the fresh water. We were using light rods and reels. I had waded the creek to get to a lure that Narciss had snagged on a rock, an activity which kept me busy since both mother and son were constantly snagging something other than fish. I was watching for bears, and saw two coming our way, around the bend in the creek about one hundred yards away, emerging out of the forest, upstream. I had the big-bore rifle, of course, but the reason for it was a last resort. So, I tried to get the lure, but it was taking too much time, and the Ukrainians were not helping, even though I had pointed out the bears. These were young bears, maybe three years old, siblings who had recently parted ways with their mother. Young bears can be foolish, and these weren’t in a hurry, just taking their time, looking for an opportunity to catch fish. But they were steadily closing the distance, and showed no sign of turning, even though I was sure they saw us.

I quickly crossed the creek, and told Narciss and Olek to just bring what gear was not snagged, with Olek encouraging his mother to hurry. She was still struggling with the rod, trying to pull the lure loose. I finally said “leave it”, and insisted they hurry with me back to the truck. When in the parking lot, beside the truck, I realized that Lima the dog wasn’t with us. She was still a pup, maybe six months old at the most. So, I went back to the creek, through the tall grass, calling to Lima. When I got to the gravel, and could see down the creek a ways, an amazing thing was occurring. Lima and the bears were playing, or so it appeared. At least Lima was playing, and the bears may have been slightly amused and looking for an opportunity. The one image that stuck in my mind the most, when looking through and over the tall shore grass, is one bear, standing in the creek edge, and Lima standing on shore, nose to nose. Lima never barked at the bears. I called to Lima and she turned her head and attention towards me, and the bear rushed at her at that moment. I still don’t know if the rush was playful or not, for sure. Lima was quick, and I heard her yelp. I figured it was all over for the dog, but she ran up the creek and joined everyone at the truck, acting like everything was all fun. I checked her over, and found no marks at all. We all waited until the bears were gone, retrieved the fishing rod and reel and lure, and went home.

About early August 2005, it had been raining a lot, and the creeks were full. Narciss and I passed over a bridge, and stopped to view. In one of the little tributaries was a pair of spawning salmon, which were all red, and the male had a green head. Narciss jumped out of the truck before I could stop her, and wouldn’t come back. She ran down the embankment, and almost into the stream, trying to catch those salmon. They got away of course, back into the main stream. Her motive was to catch one of the salmon so I could take her picture with it, so she could email the picture to her friends in Ukraine. It scared the heck out of me, especially since she wouldn’t listen and stop. Under every bridge on the logging roads there is a well beaten bear trail, usually on both sides of the stream, where they wander through on their search for fish. There simply is no telling when a close encounter with a large brown bear might happen any time one wanders off the road, and that’s especially true next to a salmon stream. These bears don’t behave like the dump bears. I had to watch Narciss like she was a willful child, any time we went anywhere animal encounters were likely. It was a bit stressful. I never really understood her nonchalance about it. I didn’t know if it was whether she was really naive, or brave, or foolish, or childish, or willful, or just why she wouldn’t listen to my advice. Now I think it was all of those things.

Berry picking was always stressful because bears like berries too. I would always carry a rifle and watch while she picked berries. I remember once, sometime in August of 2005, I heard some popping branches back in the dense brush about fifty feet, and was sure it was a bear, but couldn’t tell whether it was going or coming. I warned Narciss several times, asking that she come out to the road, but she just ignored me. So about all I could do was get in a position so I could shoot without hitting her, if a bear was sneaking on her. Fortunately, apparently the bear was making his exit from the berry patch when he cracked the branches, the noise I heard, but it could have been different, and I know of specific close encounters and maulings, a horrible thing.

Don Delian’s son borrowed my landing craft boat to go moose hunting at Neil Neech sometime around September 15 of 2005. I drove by the harbor to see if he had returned and saw a group of native men standing there looking inside the boat. So, I figured the lad had gotten a moose. I wanted a quarter of the moose meat in exchange for loaning out my boat, which made it all possible. Narciss was with me that afternoon, so I invited her to walk down to the float where the boat was tied up. I said the word “moosie” to her and pointed at the group of men and the boat. She was enthusiastic about joining me. I wasn’t thinking too well of the possible consequences of my invitation. When Narciss and I got to the boat, I greeted Don Delian’s son, then looked to see what was on the floor of the boat, expecting to see a quartered up moose bull. Instead it was a bloody dead large brown bear hide, skinned out but with the head and paws still attached, tongue hanging out. I immediately realized my mistake, and simultaneously reached for Narciss’ arm as I looked at her face. She was ghostly pale, and looked like she was going to pass out. I quickly diverted her attention away from the boat, and began leading her by the arm back towards the truck. I could see past the place where the boat was moored, and see another big fat native guy cleaning a seal he had shot, and the animal’s guts and gore were all over the finger float the man was sitting on. I was glad Narciss didn’t see that. About half way up the ramp leading to the parking spot, Narciss vomited awfully, and remained very pale. She was vomiting, sobbing and gagging all at the same time. I was sick too, but not because of the bear or the seal, but because I felt severe empathy for Narciss and recognized the huge mistake I had made – multiple mistakes. I had felt something similar that way before, in Viet Nam, feeling another person’s suffering and pain, but not that deeply.

She was inconsolable. I was ever so gentle with her in this occasion, but it took several days for her to show any clear improvement of her emotional distress over the incident. After she had partially recovered, maybe two or three days later, she asked me, quietly, “Why they kill Misha?” I thought I knew what she meant by the word “Misha”, but it was the first time I remember her saying that word. I tried explaining it by saying it was the Native Way. She didn’t understand the word “Native”. I tried “aboriginal” and “original” people. She said, “ah, aborigine”. She seemed satisfied, and never mentioned it again. It should be assumed that I never made that mistake again, but circumstances conspired.

Some relevant facts that I didn’t know at the time:

The Russian Bear was the national symbol of the Soviet Union, and an integral part of the culture and mythology of Russian speaking people.

During the 1980 Olympic summer games in Moscow, the mascot was the Russian bear cub named Misha, also known as Mishka or The Olympic Mishka, the creation of children's books illustrator Victor Chizhikov.

Misha is the first mascot of a sporting event to achieve large-scale commercial success in merchandise. The Misha doll was used extensively during the opening and closing ceremonies, appeared on several merchandise products and had both an animated short film and an animated television series.

Misha also appeared in the 1980 Olympics episode of the Russian cartoon Nu, pogodi handing trophies to the Wolf and the Hare. In Russian, Mishka is a short form for the Russian male name Mikhail (Michael), and Misha is a diminutive.

This name, in any of its forms, is a common colloquialism in Russian for a bear, because it is similar to the standard name for bear медведь (Medved). Also, most anthropomorphic bears in Russian fairy tales have the name Misha. It is thought to originate as euphemism for Medved, which was tabooed because of magical thinking that letting out the "true name" of the dangerous animal may cause it to come and attack. Medved which also means "honey eater" itself is thought to be older Proto-Slavic euphemism.

In 1977, the committee organizing the Olympics held a contest for the best illustration of a bear. The judges chose Victor Chizhikov's design depicting a smiling bear cub wearing a blue-black-yellow-green-red (colors of the Olympic rings) belt, with a golden buckle shaped like the five rings. Misha was confirmed as an official mascot on December 19, 1977.

During the closing ceremony of the 1980 Olympic Games, Misha the bear appeared with a tear in his eye. He was holding a couple of balloons and at the end he was released and flew away from the stadium. He disappeared. A few hours later he landed on Vorobyovy Gory and later was exhibited at the Exhibition Centre.

“Farewell to you, our tender Misha,
Go back home to your wood of fairy tales,
Don’t be sad, give a smile before parting,
And recall these good days, please recall…”
Russian Author Unknown, translated to English

After learning the above information, I remembered that she often called me her Medved, and I thought at the time affectionately, at least she said it in tone of voice that way, and during our special times. Sometimes she would pinch me a little on my side, saying playfully, “my Medved”. I knew it meant bear, but not the true implications. It’s just the standard name for bear in Russian, but for Narciss it meant more.

Knarley asked me if I was sure that she meant the honey bear, rather than the taboo bear. I said I was sure, because she often used the term in relation to our honey massage sessions.

I have sobbed like a little boy, remembering the Misha incident.

“To weep is to make less the depth of grief.” ― William Shakespeare

================================================

Woman mauled in Delian
________________________________________
Web posted September 4, 2005 JUNEAU EMPIRE

Brown bear mauls woman near Delian

A Delian woman was mauled Friday by a large brown bear in a popular berry-picking area near her Cheech Island community, a nephew who was the first police officer on the scene reported.

Arlover’s wife, a teacher and longtime Delian resident, was in intensive care late Saturday at Bartlett Regional Hospital, where she was flown to have surgery after the attack, officer Arlenstad said.

"It was completely unprovoked," Arlenstad said.

Arlover was picking blueberries shortly after 7 p.m. Friday off an old logging road, also known in Delian as the Water Road, about seven miles from town, Arlenstad said. Her husband, Arlover, later said he thought it was their golden retriever he heard running through the woods.

Arlover told him the bear was on his wife and the dog attacked the bear. “He ended up shooting the bear three times with the rifle he had brought”, Arlenstad said, adding “He said the bear was very active, and he was afraid he would shoot his wife by accident."

After the bear left, he gathered his wife, put her into the car and drove to the clinic, and from there she was flown to Juneau.

At the hospital in Juneau, she underwent surgery from about midnight to 9 or 10 a.m., Arlenstad said. Her injuries included a broken jaw and a broken clavicle, numerous bite puncture wounds, and part of her hip muscle was almost torn from her body.

Searchers looked for the bear for several hours Saturday morning but couldn't find it, Arlenstad said.

He said the police can't stop people from going to the area. "That's one of the favorite spots for locals to pick berries. We're advising they use caution."

Friday's mauling scene was the first Arlenstad had seen, he said. "I pray that I don't see anything like it again."

While brown bears are common in the area, bear attacks are not, he said. "We had one a few years back when a young teen was attacked," he said.

"Most of the people here have a high respect for bears," Arlenstad said. "The bears were here long before we were."

===============================================

Narciss had become acquainted with Arlover and his wife. She and I had dinner with them on several occasions. Narciss knew about the mauling incident.

Arlover’s wife was in recovery for a long time, and required several surgeries. When I visited her in the hospital, all visitors were required to wear a mask and latex gloves, which were disposed outside the door upon exit. Visitors were prohibited from touching or hugging her or touching her bed. Visitors were given a sanitized stainless stool to sit upon, and required to stay seated on it at least ten feet away from her. The reason for this precaution wasn’t for her, but for the visitor. The type of bacteria that got into her system from the bear’s mouth was super resistant to antibiotics and flesh eating. It defeated the initial skin transplants, by making blisters in the new skin and required other attempts later, after the bacteria was controlled. The infection nearly killed her.

The first night at the hospital in Juneau, she almost died from her organs shutting down, and the shock. She puffed up from the liquid fed into her veins, and her system couldn’t flush it out. After the first night it was a long ordeal to recovery. Arlover was in about as bad a condition as his wife, but his was emotional. They say he nearly went insane, and they had to sedate him and keep him away from his wife, for his own safety. He was heartbroken, felt grief beyond imagination for her pain and suffering, and blamed himself for the accident. Only through real and prolonged counseling, and her slow but steady recovery, was he able to come out of it. The couple are living the Good Life now, deeply in love as always, and all is well.

Remember, Narciss loved “nature goosee” and wanted a fresh one for the holidays. I wanted her to have one very much. So I made arrangements with the local Christian farm community to buy one from them and also pay them to butcher it and prepare it for cooking. This farm is inhabited by some of the nicest people on the planet. The farm maidens kept a gaggle of geese for the community, a commune really. The girls would release the geese daily so they could feed in the nearby field and especially the green garden planted for them. Each evening the girls would round up the geese, who were used to the routine, and put them into the sheltered barn, protection for the night. These were the really big geese, some gray and some white. Narciss thoroughly approved and had seen the geese, again making the little girl sounds familiar to me, but with the gooses, her little girl voice was slightly different. We visited the farm several times and always enjoyed it.

So, it was all arranged. Then a big brown bear got into the barn one night and killed most of the geese and ate some, and those who survived were traumatized. The bear returned the next night and got into the animal feed store room, and gorged himself. That was more than enough reason for doing whatever necessary to put a stop to it. Bears like that will continue to return to a food source even long after the food is gone. It was very dangerous, especially for the girls. One of the women of the community, a rather hardy red-head beauty, about thirty, positioned herself, before dusk, in the loft of the barn. She had a large caliber rifle, and a flashlight. She made sure that the flashlight was not absolutely necessary by illuminating the goose pen and the store room with a small LED light. Soon after dark, the bear entered the barn, and the woman whacked him right away with a high velocity heavy 45 caliber rifle bullet straight down between the shoulder blades. One shot was all it took. They used the farm tractor, with the bucket, to lift the bear off the ground, then went home and got a good night’s sleep. Next day, they called fish and game (moose and goose to Alaskans) wildlife officer to come out and do his thing – report the incident. It was a formality, just in case the officer had any concerns about perhaps an illegal act or something, but the shooter had a valid brown bear tag. The hide of that bear is now hanging on the wall in the community dining facility on the farm, with a picture of the read-head beauty holding the rifle next to it and a plaque describing the event.

Narciss and I learned about it, the day after the shooting, and we went out there, to the farm, walking the mile long path through the old growth rain forest. We noticed the fish and game truck parked at the trail head, where the logging road ends. The dead bear was still hanging from the tractor bucket, but it was parked behind the barn. Fortunately, we took a path where the dead animal wasn’t visible to us. But she was heartbroken that a bear had killed most of the goosees and spoiled her holiday nature goosee plans. I bought her a frozen goose from the grocery store instead. She was told that they had to shoot the bear. The series of events caused Narciss to realize that those bears are dangerous; maulers and killer of goosees. Later Narciss saw the bear hide on the wall and showed none of the same reaction as before, and actually touched it and stroked her fingers through its fur, while I watched her carefully. The hide and fur of an animal apparently didn’t carry the same emotional connection for Narciss as live animals did, or a fresh bloody dead brown bear hide.

I made sure that she didn’t get within view of the dead bear, hanging from the tractor bucket, on our way past the barn, and the goosee garden, down the mile long forest trail, through the old growth rain forest, back to the truck parked at the end of the logging road, ten miles from Delian.

Nature Goosees at the farm



Dump Bears



Big brown Bear at the dump

Interesting story and very pretty woman a man does what a man has to do.

It was a case of one head over-ruling the better judgment of the other - very costly. Live in remote Alaska long enough and it impairs one's judgment, especially since I had a selection criteria of four-tooth minimum.


Perhaps you wonder why the fictionalized name for the story - Narciss?

Definition: The hallmarks of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) are grandiosity, a lack of empathy for other people, and a need for admiration. People with this condition are frequently described as arrogant, self-centered, manipulative, and demanding.

She was the most manipulative person I ever met, and got to know. She had her techniques for men and women, especially the "system"; a very creative woman that way; a true child of communism. She knew how to use the tools she was gifted with. I was no match for her skills in several ways. She presented herself to be an accountant back in Ukraine, but her measure of debit and credit was like that of a banker. I learned of evidence that led me to believe that her real profession was personal companion for the high political muckity-mucks in government. I think she got into trouble in the Orange Revolution and needed to get out.

What better place to escape than Remote Alaska, USA?

The key was the timing of her disappearance (cease to communicate with me) in Kiev during the Orange Revolution, re-emerging in January 2005 with urgent interest in coming to Alaska. Her visa had already been in process since November 2004, so to follow through with that was her quickest way out. Another key was her son's last name, which was different than hers. Her last name was old family Ukrainian. Her son's last name was Russian, coincidentally the same last name as one of the Russians who fled to Russia after the dioxin poisoning of Yushchenko, at a dinner party. I believe she was also present at the dinner party, as a companion, and knew something. She was definitely pro-Russian. She was very protective of her son. She would not let me discipline him, and refused to let me make him cook or wash dishes, or any house work. She treated him like an aristocrat and he acted accordingly, like a spoiled brat. I think that she wanted out to protect her son too, and didn't want to move to Russia. She had a secret sponsor, who provided her and her son money, smart phone, prepaid international calling cards, prepaid debit card, and she was very careful to have a secured email acct, PO box, and bank account, which I could not access.

In the story, I try to paint, with words, an empathetic picture of her and her complex personality.

Also, in this chapter, there are two purposes. I decided to consolidate bear stories, and also use them to broaden the reader's understanding of the character Narciss.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution

quote:

It was a case of one head over-ruling the better judgment of the other - very costly. Live in remote Alaska long enough and it impairs one's judgment, especially since I had a selection criteria of four-tooth minimum.

A lot of native gals around for sure the 4 teeth rule eliminated most I would believe.

Thinking with the wrong head has gotten more then one man into trouble and cost them a lot of money.

In most of those native villages, the main reason the young native gals would lure an older white guy was for drug and alcohol money. Toxic. And a condom can't protect you from a knife wielding raging alcohol/drug afflicted aboriginal and their incestuous kin.

quote:

In most of those native villages, the main reason the young native gals would lure an older white guy was for drug and alcohol money. Toxic. And a condom can't protect you from a knife wielding raging alcohol/drug afflicted aboriginal and their incestuous kin.

I worked law enforcement on a large reservation for some time I know all about it.

I would opt for a big bolt gun to stop a big bear, The Ruger Alaskan carbines seem a best choice to me and 375 or 416 would be my choice..

The last damn thing I would opt for is a shotgun with slugs or buckshot..That came about by a study by the USFS, having delt with those guys as to firearms, I just can't agree with much the conclude..Last deer I killed with a shotgun some many years ago, I ended up killing the poor bastard with a big big rock!! after 3 shoulder shots..and a two mile run with a n empty gun!! To each his own on the shotgun I love them for birds up to 3 lbs..

That's funny P-dog..

Magine,

Now this is getting interesting. Not the endless arguments over what it takes to stop a dangerous four legged critter but some real dangerous game!

So what's the next chapter in the saga with your Narciss?

Thanks for asking cougarz.

I was considering deleting my posts re Narciss. TMI - too much info.

I posted it to see if it drew interest and this chapter is related to this topic, mostly.

Obviously, Narciss was way out of her realm. This was a scenario doomed to fail from the start. I was also out of my league. Things got really sour when Alaska winter set in, short days, freezing slush, no local shopping malls, slim social circle, and a network of menacing Russian and Ukrainian women's advocates, and others, out of Juneau.

It took a while for me to figure out I was just being used - I was slow and hopeful - but getting out was much more difficult than getting in.

It's a long story, and goes all the way to Alaska Supreme Court - I lost BTW.

I have material enough for a book, and have actually written one, for therapy mostly, but haven't gone back to it for several years.

I would like to finish it, but it's not fun.

Maybe I'll share more. I'll have to think about it. I have a wordpress web page. I'll take another look and see what I can share and remain discrete.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
Thanks for asking cougarz.

I was considering deleting my posts re Narciss. TMI - too much info.

I posted it to see if it drew interest and this chapter is related to this topic, mostly.

Obviously, Narciss was way out of her realm. This was a scenario doomed to fail from the start. I was also out of my league. Things got really sour when Alaska winter set in, short days, freezing slush, no local shopping malls, slim social circle, and a network of menacing Russian and Ukrainian women's advocates, and others, out of Juneau.

It took a while for me to figure out I was just being used - I was slow and hopeful - but getting out was much more difficult than getting in.

It's a long story, and goes all the way to Alaska Supreme Court - I lost BTW.

I have material enough for a book, and have actually written one, for therapy mostly, but haven't gone back to it for several years.

I would like to finish it, but it's not fun.

Maybe I'll share more. I'll have to think about it. I have a wordpress web page. I'll take another look and see what I can share and remain discrete.

Good story!!

Magine, Sorry to hear about your experience with NPD. Maybe OT on this subforum, but it's a real story and not inappropriate.

You are not alone. My youngest brother's now ex-wife put him through that ringer. He's climbing the other side of the ravine now, but at one point was worried he'd take his life when we were in deer camp.

My wife and I knew she had classic NPD, and we just couldn't get through to him. You and he are so much better to have them out of your respective lives. No matter the monetary cost.

I learned the true meaning of the old saying/question.

Why does a divorce cost so much?

Because it's worth it.

I never had a negative attitude about women, and really still don't. But, I never understood some men's attitude. Now I understand. I was always very skeptical of men's story about some of the mess they said they went through; got themselves into. I always figured they were embellishing or somehow deserved it. Now, I'm ashamed of myself for thinking that.

I can't even explain with mere words how relieved I am to be past that experience. One doesn't just forget it, but learns to live with and own his mistakes.

I am envious of men who have a longstanding marriage, happy or tolerated. They are good men. To sum it up, I learned and came to the conclusion that I'm not a good husband. And I'm okay with that, and happy living free of having to live up to the constant pressure of someone else's expectations or demands.

I have a dear sister, and a brother-in-law. She has him trained. He's a great husband. The poor guy can hardly break away for a few days of deer hunting. He comes over here, and stays a day or two, then inevitably he has to leave because of some honey-dew. I don't even mention my view of it all. But when she tries her ploy on me - well you can imagine how that works out. She's pretty well trained to leave me the heck alone, or at least negotiate rather than demand or put on a show to get her way. I love her dearly, but I'm not hers to command.

BTW- we may not be all that like-minded politically, but that should never stand in the way of respect for another man.

You have a story worth your telling and worth our reading. A man's experiences tend to shape his outlook; it is a truly rare man who's outlook completely shapes his experiences.


That divorce thing- "been there, done that." Funny- those exact words (in the same context) were said by my 2nd (and still) wife when we met 15 years ago.

Anyway- continue to persevere, ME.

quote:

A man's experiences tend to shape his outlook; it is a truly rare man who's outlook completely shapes his experiences.

That's something to think about.


My "outlook" has been, for as long as I can remember, ya never know what's going to come at ya. One's path may be chosen, but circumstance conspires. Being entirely in control of one's experiences is an illusion. Maybe I'm one of those risk takers. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. But, so far, it has worked out. I don't even know the ratio of it working out as expected or planned, or luck, or plan B, or resort to damage control. I haven't kept tabs on that. My only "tabs" are to keep things from going really, really bad, and try to see it coming and move out of the way, and take the good when it is available, whether luck or skill. Sometimes, it is even difficult to recognize "good" when it's right there in plain sight.

quote:

but some real dangerous game!

I had more then one women after murdering husband/boy friend / partner.

Tell me.

That they only did it because they loved him too much.

A man does not need that amount of loving for most just some sex now and then would do.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I would opt for a big bolt gun to stop a big bear, The Ruger Alaskan carbines seem a best choice to me and 375 or 416 would be my choice..

The last damn thing I would opt for is a shotgun with slugs or buckshot..That came about by a study by the USFS, having delt with those guys as to firearms, I just can't agree with much the conclude..Last deer I killed with a shotgun some many years ago, I ended up killing the poor bastard with a big big rock!! after 3 shoulder shots..and a two mile run with a n empty gun!! To each his own on the shotgun I love them for birds up to 3 lbs..

Not that I would prefer a shotgun at all. But, if you have only fired Foster slugs, I understand your concern. Copper Solids or 1 3/8 Berreneke (hard cast) are a bit different animal.

The parts and tools for my 458 SOCOM upper have arrived. Feels like Christmas.



I have no intent on using it for bear protection, but I see no reason why it wouldn't be just fine for that purpose with the right load.

I think it would be a problem in Canada. They probably wouldn't let me cross the border with it.

Here's some factory loads that will probably be good choice:

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-flat-nose-box-of-20

Buffalo Bore Ammunition 458 SOCOM 350 Grain Jacketed Flat Nose Box of 20

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-flat-nose-box-of-20

Buffalo Bore Ammunition 458 SOCOM 400 Grain Jacketed Flat Nose Box of 20

Since I can handload, I would probably choose bullets like these, depending on whether they feed perfectly.

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-flat-nose-box-of-20

Barnes Original Bullets 45-70 Government (458 Diameter) 400 Grain Flat Nose Flat Base Box of 50

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...soft-point-box-of-50

Woodleigh Bullets 45-70 Government (458 Diameter) 405 Grain Bonded Weldcore Flat Nose Soft Point

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...soft-point-box-of-50

Woodleigh Bullets 450 Black Powder Express (458 Diameter) 350 Grain Bonded Weldcore Round Nose Soft Point

And this is my first choice that I figure will be most likely to succeed:

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-flat-nose-box-of-50

Swift A-Frame Lever Action Rifle Bullets 45-70 Government Caliber (457 Diameter) 350 Grain Bonded Flat Nose Box of 50



Speer and Hornady make seasonal runs of very good and reasonably priced .458 350 gr bullets. The Hornady is offered in RN and flat nose.

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?ta...sistedItemsPerPage=0 (scroll down)

I am with you. I'd like to build a 450 bushmaster on a Fight lite Ares lower.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
The parts and tools for my 458 SOCOM upper have arrived. Feels like Christmas.

I studied on the 450 bushmaster and decided it is not the one I'm looking for.

There are two very important reasosn.

First, it uses .452 pistol bullets.

Second, it headspaces off the mouth of the case thus precluding a roll crimp to hold the bullet in place.

Also, in general the cartridge doesn't use heavy enough bullets, nor bullets with heavy bonded jackets.

Take the Swift 350 gr .457 bullet shown above. That bullet is far better big bear medicine than anything offered for the 450 BM as far as I know.

The 458 SOCOM head spaces off the shoulder, and uses .458 bullets, which are RIFLE bullets.

If a 450 BM is what you want, knowing the issues mentioned above, then that's okay because you know what you are getting, but IMO it's not for bears.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/450_bushmaster.html

Take a look as a sampling of ammo available for the 450 Bushmaster:

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?ta...sistedItemsPerPage=0

None of those listed offer much in the way of sectional density. They are relatively light for caliber bullets, much like pistol bullets.

Plus there are not many listings. The 458 SOCOM offers much greater selection and much heavier and stouter constructed bullets.

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?ta...sistedItemsPerPage=0


IMO, for hogs or black bear, this factory load ought to be about as good as it gets in the moderate velocity big bore.

Buffalo Bore Ammunition 458 SOCOM 300 Grain Barnes TTSX Polymer Tipped Spitzer Lead-Free

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...-lead-free-box-of-20

1900 fps MV, 2404 ft lbs ME

It might work for large bears, but it is designed to mushroom quickly at SOCOM velocity. I prefer a bullet that doesn't open up so quickly for something as tough as a brown bear. In other words, I prefer deep penetration over quick expansion. But I don't want a solid or hard cast bullet.


===============================================

But for comparison:

The Brenneke Black Magic 12 gauge 3" magnum 1-3/8 oz slug.

That's 600 gr bullet at 1500 fps MV, 3014 ft lbs ME

It's a hard slug and won't mushroom much, if at all. But it's already large diameter.

That's why I have no plans to use my 458 SOCOM for bear protection. I have my shotgun and Brenneke 3" slugs

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...rifled-slug-box-of-5

===============================================

My thought on this is why make it complicated?

There are so many good and reliable inexpensive shotguns. Just get one and a couple of boxes of the Brenneke 3" slugs and bush whack bear country with about as high degree of confidence as any firearm will provide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs7h-WdjGuc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD2-M04fOgM

https://www.cabelas.com/produc...n-Shotgun/728565.uts

Benelli Nova Tactical Pump-Action Shotgun

$399 at Cabelas

Good gawd, Magine, ... dude, that was waaaay TMI about Misha.

That was the condensed version.

Just another take on bears - since Misha is one variant Bear in Russian.

===============================================

Here's a Big word for you: anthropomorphic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

Anthropomorphism is the attribution of human traits, emotions, or intentions to non-human entities.[1] It is considered to be an innate tendency of human psychology.[2]

================================================


I knew the word, but had no idea of the depth of it in some people until that experience with Narciss.

It should be an interesting twist on our views of bears, since a large segment of the world's population views it much differently.

If you are really interested:

This concept is not unique to cultures today, and just city people or those afflicted with the Disney syndrome.

It's connected to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism

Animism is the religious belief that objects, places and creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence.[3][4][5][6] Potentially, animism perceives all things—animals, plants, rocks, rivers, weather systems, human handiwork and perhaps even words—as animated and alive. Animism is the world's oldest religion, "Animism predates any form of organized religion and is said to contain the oldest spiritual and supernatural perspective in the world. It dates back to the Paleolithic Age, to a time when ... humans roamed the plains hunting and gathering, and communing with the Spirit of Nature."[7]

Animism is used in the anthropology of religion as a term for the belief system of many indigenous peoples,[8] especially in contrast to the relatively more recent development of organised religions.[9] Although each culture has its own different mythologies and rituals, "animism" is said to describe the most common, foundational thread of indigenous peoples' "spiritual" or "supernatural" perspectives. The animistic perspective is so widely held and inherent to most indigenous peoples that they often do not even have a word in their languages that corresponds to "animism" (or even "religion");[10] the term is an anthropological construct.

Animism encompasses the beliefs that all material phenomena have agency, that there exists no hard and fast distinction between the spiritual and physical (or material) world and that soul or spirit or sentience exists not only in humans, but also in other animals, plants, rocks, geographic features such as mountains or rivers or other entities of the natural environment, including thunder, wind and shadows. Animism thus rejects Cartesian dualism.[citation needed] Animism may further attribute souls to abstract concepts such as words, true names or metaphors in mythology. Some members of the non-tribal world also consider themselves animists (such as author Daniel Quinn, sculptor Lawson Oyekan and many contemporary Pagans).[13]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=...t2CEKChs7I-IL8ZrxhF4

https://www.google.com/url?sa=...XIxnAEAJPglBsBqp0v3x

Dersu Uzala (Russian: Дерсу Узала, Japanese: デルス·ウザーラ, translit. Derusu Uzāra; alternative U.S. title: Dersu Uzala: The Hunter) is a 1975 Soviet-Japanese co-production film directed by Akira Kurosawa, his first non-Japanese-language film and his first and only 70mm film. The film won the Golden Prize and the Prix FIPRESCI at the 9th Moscow International Film Festival[1] and the 1976 Oscar for Best Foreign Language Film.[2]

The film is based on the 1923 memoir Dersu Uzala (which took its name from the native trapper) by Russian explorer Vladimir Arsenyev, about his exploration of the Sikhote-Alin region of the Russian Far East over the course of multiple expeditions in the early 20th century.

The film is almost entirely shot outdoors in the Russian Far East wilderness. The film explores the theme of a native of the forests who is fully integrated into his environment, leading a style of life that will inevitably be destroyed by the advance of civilization. It is also about the growth of respect and deep friendship between two men of profoundly different backgrounds, and about the difficulty of coping with the loss of strength and ability that comes with old age.

http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/v...e-Mighty-People.html

In other words, there is a lot more to bears than just what rifle or shotgun kills them best.

Heck, the native Americans killed them with arrows and spears.

Meriwether Lewis once held one off with a pike.

The Grizzly Reclaims the Great Plains

https://sciencing.com/the-griz...plains-13400310.html

Top Predator on the Plains: Wolf, Bear or Human?

https://blog.nationalgeographi...-wolf-bear-or-human/

Here's a rather long essay on Lewis and Clarks bear claw necklace

http://www.lewis-clark.org/article/3043

Many "bear" experts recommend a 12 ga using buckshot or slugs. A pump is fast and reliable.

If you heart is set on a rifle, I would pick a Ruger Guide Gun in either .375 Ruger or .416 Ruger. They have excellent iron sights (shallow V with white line) similar to those on the best double rifles. They are also compact and very reliable. With a quick first shot into the chest, you should have plenty of time to get off a couple more.

I have both a 45-70 and a .375 Ruger Guide gun. I bought the Ruger after not being particularly impressed with the 45-70 (using heavy softpoints) on black bear.

The beauty of the Guide Gun is that you can put a scope on it, and have an excellent long range rifle for hunting Grizzly, black bear, and even cape buffalo.

As for the .458 Socom, a guy in bear camp lost a black bear this year after shooting one at 25 yds square between the shoulder blades. The bullet did not break the bear's spine. The bear flipped over on its back and squirmed a bit, and then jumped up and took off. Not hard hitting enough for a stopper gun IMO.

BH63

quote:

As for the .458 Socom, a guy in bear camp lost a black bear this year after shooting one at 25 yds square between the shoulder blades. The bullet did not break the bear's spine. The bear flipped over on its back and squirmed a bit, and then jumped up and took off. Not hard hitting enough for a stopper gun IMO.

Yes, I have reservations with the 458 SOCOM.

The analogy I'll make is with deer or hog hunters using the 223. The cartridge is certainly capable of taking deer and hogs, as is the 458 SOCOM is capable of taking a large bear.


In either case it mostly depends on using the right bullet. Many "hunters" don't appreciate bullet construction and density. Thus, many deer are lost from the use of varmint bullets in the 223. Most of the available factory rounds for the 458 SOCOM are very poor choices for Bear. It's also like shotgun ammo. Use a deer slug or buckshot, one should not expect desired results on a large bear.


Here's something interesting, for those who like history:

Journals of the
Lewis & Clark Expedition

May 14, 1805

https://lewisandclarkjournals....em/lc.jrn.1805-04-29


All bear encounters in the Journals:

http://www.lewis-clark.org/article/467

Almost any rifle in a big bore caliber is suitale for DG. most of the ones mentioned work.

For myself only two things are not acceptable and that is: Bear Spray and a shotgun..

quote:

Many "bear" experts recommend a 12 ga using buckshot or slugs....

Please, give us the details about all the “experts” who recommend buckshot as large bear defense. Please, enquiring minds want to know....


.

quote:

Originally posted by BuffHunter63:
As for the .458 Socom, a guy in bear camp lost a black bear this year after shooting one at 25 yds square between the shoulder blades. The bullet did not break the bear's spine. The bear flipped over on its back and squirmed a bit, and then jumped up and took off. Not hard hitting enough for a stopper gun IMO.

BH63

Stopper Gun ???

Yes, those two words pretty much sum up the premise of the title to this thread - "Large Bear Defense Rifle".

IMO, that would be a "stopper", decisively, of a large bear charging.

Simply said, IMO, that takes a large, (.411 +) relatively tough bullet that will mushroom controlled and retain near 100% initial weight, at velocity to generate at least 3000 ft lbs ME.

The Brenneke 1-3/8 oz slug (.690 @1500 MV) meets that criteria, except for mushrooming. None of the factory 458 SOCOM loads on Midway generate that much ME. No pistol cartridge generates that kind of muzzle energy that I know of, not even the 454 Casull.

Of course lesser cartridges and bullets can stop a bear, or turn it, with some luck. IMO, in a defense situation, some luck is always involved. I'm in favor of stacking the odds in my advantage. IMO, luck has run dry when the charge commences.

Also, IMO, not to disparage the 458 SOCOM, I personally feel comfortable with the AR15 platform. It's handy, quick, light, very reliable, and has multiple very quick follow up shots at the finger tip. My favorite is my AR15 carbine in 6.5 Grendel. I also have an Armalite AR10 in 308, with the carbine barrel. That rifle is a thumper on hogs. I think it would be great for bears too, although not a stopper as defined, but it's heavier than the AR15.

Just to satisfy my curiosity, since I never considered the 308 in the AR10 as a bear defense rifle before, I looked at the whole selection of 308 ammo offered by Midway. I screened for 180 gr bullets, then screened for bonded bullets, and came up with three. The one and only that I would choose is the Norma bonded Oryx; 2610 FPS, 2723 ft lbs ME. Not bad.

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...cted-point-box-of-20

If Lapua loaded the 308 with their 200gr MEGA bullet, I would get some if I wanted to carry my AR10 for bear defense. If they don't load the 200 gr, then I would handload some, or maybe a 200 gr Swift bullet.

The 458 SOCOM doesn't produce too much recoil for the average person to handle, even a woman. A 458 WM with a 400 gr bullet at 2300 fps would surely be a better stopper. But I've shot them a lot, and they kick. To me they are not fun to practice with and they destroy a scope from the inside by shaking it loose. As a defense rifle, a scope would probably just get in the way with a 458 WM, and besides that, I very much doubt a woman or small frame man or boy could handle it, especially with a scope, which would probably have to be surgically removed from the eye socket of the unfamiliar shooter after it was all over.

The 458 SOCOM lends itself to more practice. Familiarity with one's rifle is very important in bear defense mode. It has to be instinct. And there are some great tactical type iron sights that are easily attached, and there are the red dot scopes too. I have a 1x4 Leupold which is light and compact. In defense of a charge, it would be point and shoot, both eyes open, anyway. IMO, with the correct bullet, the 458 SOCOM light carbine (16" barrel) beats a pistol.

I would carry one for such purpose. If I keep on, I'm going to talk myself into it. As I'm writing this, I'm thinking that I could just ship my carbine to myself in Alaska, and bypass Canada altogether. And ship it back to my winter abode at the end of summer. I may just do that. It will give me a good excuse to develop and test some bear defense handloads this winter.

Hopefully, on this thread, I can post some pictures later of my tests on wild hogs. Just yesterday, I saw some fresh rooting about 100 yards from my back door.

I read this thread.
I have family in Ontario and went fishing with them, I didn't realize the danger I was in.
A cousin was OPP in Moosonee and we visited him. He said "watch out for the polar bears" and we just wandered around town. He said if we saw one to run into the nearest house, don't bother knocking just say bear going through the door.
He was involved with a program to identify bad bears, they shot them with a paintball gun then took pictures. Bad bears got a free helicopter ride way north.

M

I have a 450 Bushmaster(452 sized SOCOM), a 500 S&W Magnum rifle(same case volume larger bullet dia/weight) 450 Marlin(≈78 gr H2O) several 458 Americans(≈73 gr H2O), 444 Marlin(68 gr H20) and I guarantee I HOPE to hell I never have to confront an angry Griz or even a pissed black bear with ANY of those...you can dream on all you want. I also have a passel of REALLY LARGE caliber/large case guns I would much prefer to have in that instance. They all WILL kill a calm Griz or just about any other animal given good bullets and placement, but I want a REAL LARGE CALIBER RIFLE/SHOTGUN if it's pissed off and ready to chew on me. There are entirely way too many "stories" and bullshit floating all over the net about BEAR DEFENSE GUNS and not enough reality.

BEAR "DEFENSE" implies a dangerous scenario is happening or about to...do you really want a piddly 458 SOCOM with a 350 gr bullet producing about 2600 ftlbs of energy defending your person OR YOUR WIFE???? I load my 500 S&W to slightly over 3600 ftlbs and would feel none too safe shooting a sleeping griz without a rifle backing me up not that I would use it...I WANT A RIFLE not a toy.

HOW many people have been killed even using large caliber rifle that didn't stop the charge that were NEVER reported other than in the local papers.

I think the way you're acting puts you in that "victim waiting to happen" category, you don't seem to have a well defined sense of self preservation.

Just my observation. It's YOUR skin, do what you feel is adequate.

Good Hunting and Merry X-mas

Magine Enigam,

Thanks for the essay links, very interesting.

Make mine a .458 Winchester Magnum, of course.

Chevy Chase at age 75:



Have a Grizzwold Christmas!

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