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 +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Then I must not be a dumb SOB  because I never said that SD and FPE over-ride bullet construction. In fact, what I said in effect was that they all play about equal, and neither can be ignored in favor of another. In other words, the best mathematical SD and FPE can be defeated insofar as results by a soft bullet - pushed too fast and it doesn't hold together.You said: quote: "SD and FPE are irrelevant numbers. Bullet construction and shape are for more importsnt than calculations." And I responded that declaring SD and FPE as irrelevant is absurd. I took you literally at your word. You, however, took liberties with interpreting what I said, and got it wrong. Either you can't read, or you just make up stuff. So, who is the dumb SOB? If you had said something like: "bullet construction is the most important thing to me, because SD and FPE is what it is, and all bullets are not created equal" we wouldn't be arguing. IMO, we are actually close to agreement, except that the "Calculations" as you call it, are not irrelevant. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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You are, you posted SD & FPE figures which don't predict anything accurately in the field. You have sh9wn zero experience. Nose shape has more to do with penetration of solids than sectional densitygrain round nose solid factory load in the 416 Rigby at 2380 FPS was Out penetrated in wet print by a rep grain flat point Hard cast at west fps. SD was irrelevant. FPE does not predict lethality accurately in the field. Every animal I posted a picture of above was taken cleanly with 1 shot and exits. Many more variable than than you are listing. Go back under your bridge. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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This is exactly what I was getting at about erroneous assumptions, observations and misinterpretation of definitions. The FN 416 at 2800 fps penetrates deeper than the RN 416 at same velocity though according to the originator of this observation mass and SD are apparently the same ! Erroneously then interpreted then that the SD is irrelevant and nose shape is ??? Back to the definition of SD: SD of a projectile in motion = the ratio of its mass to its representative surface in the direction of motion also called the orthographic surface area which equals that surface area wetted by the target whilst in motion. What is irrelevant during penetration is the SD printed on the box in which the bullet was sold ! Simply because all oblong bullet are inherently unstable , Yes unstable even FN bullets ( that is why we spin them ) Round balls are not unstable Bullets may deform, erode, tumble and may fragment during the penetration process altering their SD as they penetrate ! This is why the RN 416 is out-penetrated by the FN of same mass and stated on the box SD ! The fact is that per unit distance penetrated the RN evokes more drag than the FN and specifically because of its dynamic instantaneous SD What about nose shape ? It might come as a surprise to some here that the rounded nose shape is the best shape for penetration and not the flat ( with the provision that the projectile remain stable) Experiments done on long rod erosion and penetration shows that rods that penetrate erode to a rounded shape and that this shape is the "best shape The issue in RN and pointed bullets vs FN bullets is that RN and Pointed bullets are inherently unstable based on their geometry of shape and thus distribution of mass around the centre of gravity . This instability causes the RN bullet to have a poor SD during penetration thus it experiences more drag and therefore sheds more energy to the target per unit of depth penetrated ultimately showing less penetration than the FN. As to the relevance of SD ! SD is central to all 3 branches of our ballistics system Internal, intermediate and terminal ! | |||
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So, jwp475, why are you not calling ALF a dumb SOB?
So, now we're talking solids for bear defense? One thing I've noticed is when some guys are caught in not knowing WTF they are talking about, they shift the bar, and insert a zinger. Who would seriously consider using a solid or hard cast for brown bear or white bear defense when there are very good bonded lead core jacketed bullets available? Well, maybe it's someone who thinks it's all about bullet construction, mixed in with other fallacies. Bullet construction isn't worth anything without some kinetic energy, which is physics. For me, bullet construction is so important that I would choose something like the 400 gr Swift for 416 or 458 bolt action rifles, and the 350 or 400 FN bonded bullet for the lever actions or AR15. Here's a picture of the 350 gr .458 Swift FN lever action bullet, compared to the Hornady 350 gr FN bullet. Yea, they both look "unstable" to me, especially the Swift on the left.   ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I've had ALF on ignore for so many years I have forgotten why. Packy | |||
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Magine Enigam; I happen to agree with your view on this matter. I've even created a simple formula for personal use and guidance. So hang in there without name calling. You're not alone in this matter as many past and present knowledgeable and experienced shooters/hunters would agree. Regarding the matter of camping in Canada with a LOADED shotgun: Canadian FIREARMS LAW is clear: Unless warranted by RCMP permit, it is UNLAWFUL to have a LOADED firearm at hand for self-protection. At 1/2 hour after sunset (in whatever location) it must be UNLOADED and with a trigger lock, or in a locked safe or cabinet separate from ammunition. That's Federal law in all of Canada. EXCEPTIONS have been discussed on several Canadian forums: the sole exceptions appear to be for TEMPORARY cleaning, repairing, working on, or display. As mentioned, I have a good friend who was a Conservation Officer (C.O.) for many years. He is now retired, but was an officer of the law, with full power as any regular police officer. In fact, he often worked on cases with the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) and RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police), which is the Federal police force (same as your FBI). He was very strict in these matters, that's how I know -- plus reading the regs. That's not to say, however, that an IMMIGRATION officer is fully aware of these regulations. No, the chance of you being "caught" in a tent with a loaded shotgun would be a very rare event -- but it's like a bear attack, it could happen! That's my last word on it! Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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I am certainly glad to be informed with that info about traveling through Canada with my shotgun. I didn't know, but fortunately never got into trouble over it. I never intend to flaunt the Canadian law, but make every effort to comply, regardless of whether I agree or not. I don't know what I'll do in the future, but such knowledge will affect my decisions. Someone mentioned that they quit camping in the small tents in bear country, favoring more room to maneuver. I'm the same way. I bought one of those Kodiak tents, China made  , but the best value for the money that I could find. It sets up quickly and has lots of room. I have one complaint, but it's a long story. The worst encounter I had on the trip was a rogue racoon in Arkansas, but one big dog woff from my bitch and the coon decided to leave quickly.  Someone mentioned cast bullets for bears. IMO - bad idea, unless one wants to wait a while for the bear to expire. I figure that the reason for some who want to use cast bullets is they enjoy to aroma of a pot of molten lead. I suspect that explains a lot about those who dismiss kinetic energy "calculations". Also, I'm not a fan of pistols. It seems to me that to carry one that's adequate requires some sort of custom shoulder holster, and also there is no way I can see that balletically any pistol can match even a modest rifle in killing power. I have owned numerous pistols over the years, but have only one now - a 40 cal Glock. My favorites were 44 Mag. One in particular I carried a lot and shot a lot - a S&W stainless slender 4" barrel. It carried easy. I toted it when bush whacking in ID, MT, and CO. But when I moved to the AK island and saw the size of those bears, I figured it was not enough gun. I owned a 480 Ruger for about a week. I bought it because a guy needed money and offered it way less than it was worth. I promptly bought some Buffalo Bore hard cast ammo and shot a poor little Sitka BT doe. That was the most difficult deer to find in all my hunting experience. It ran quite a ways before expiring in that thick growth of berry bushes and alders. Often bears will come to the sound of shot in early deer season, so one must presume that there is competition for finding a dead or wounded deer, and the bear has the advantage in several ways. That discouraged my view of the firearm and the ammo. Then I was offered a nice profit on selling it. Goodbye and never looked back. That 480 was accurate and not unpleasant at all to shoot. As I recall, the felt recoil was less than my S&W 44 mag. It was a good quality pistol and had a good feel and balance about it. But as Quigley would say - I didn't have much use for it. I knew that after the doe experience, I would never be comfortable with that pistol as bear defense. And besides, it seemed very awkward to draw the damn thing quickly. I can deploy my shotgun very quickly, shoot a bigger and faster slug, and follow up super quick. I've owned two 458 WMs. The first was a Parker Hale Mauser. I had it modified into a carbine, and shot it a lot. I killed a large moose with it - one shot, five steps, belly up in a depression, which made for very difficult field butchering. The bullet was a 400 gr Bear Claw bonded. Complete pass through. Those bullets are no longer available to the handloader as far as I know, but available in Federal factory ammo. A guy from Australia offered me far more money I had in the rifle, so I sold it. He said he was going to use it for water buffalo in Australia. For several years thereafter, I wanted a custom 458, so finally I had one made. The barrel started out as a 450 Marlin on a short action Ruger 77 MKII, but I could never get it to feed right, and spent a lot of gunsmith money trying. Finally, in disgust, I pulled the barrel and set it aside. I sold the action and stock. Later I got a long action Ruger 77 MKII and sent the action and the 450 barrel to PacNor, the barrel maker. Per discussion, they said it would be no problem to ream out the chamber length for the 458WM. They had to set it back a little on the threads (one turn I presume) because the belt on the 450 is wider than the std belted Mag belt of the 458 WM. I also asked them to cut the throat in a separate op - to the 45-70 specs. The barrel is 20" long with 1 in 20" twist rate. My intent was/is to handload bullets with the short ogive to not engage the lands, but be close. the throat of the std 458 is very long. The result is the rifle shown in picture of previous post. I have been more than satisfied with it, except now that I'm older, the recoil of the full loads (400gr Swift) are brutal in that light carbine. I also loaded some of the 350 gr Barnes TSX, but only punched paper with them. Very accurate, and I, not knowing any better, have high confidence in them, at the velocity I got, which as I recall was at or close to 2500 fps. I have seen the results when that bullet strikes at too low velocity. It doesn't expand. It needs velocity to expand as intended.The 300 gr Barnes TTSX boat tail is a different story. It's designed to expand at SOCOM velocity. The std 300 gr TSX flat base is not designed to expand at SOCOM velocity, as I understand it. I've never shot anything with that 300 gr flat base Barnes, but running at full speed in a 458WM, I suspect half a deer would be bloodshot from such a load. I've got about a box and a half of those bullets, and can't imagine what I would use them for. The SD is too low for bears!!!  I got the rifle out a few days ago, found some ammo previously loaded with the Barnes 300gr TTSX SOCOM bullets, (about 1800 fps MV) sighted it in, and plan to hog hunt with it until spring, or gets too warm and buggy, or I've shot all the hogs I want, whichever comes first.************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Momentum = force ? No it is not ! Momentum is simply the amount of motion a body has ie mass x velocity. You can have the same momentum for a body that has large mass and little velocity to a body with small mass and high velocity Force on the other hand is: Force = mass x acceleration ! or if you wish mass times change in velocity So force is not simply equal to momentum is is equal to change in momentum ! If your two bodies one light and fast the other heavy and slow impact a object the amount of force they subject the object to would by very different ! And in this lies the crux of the matter. It is the old analogy of being hit by a fast moving ping pong ball vs a slow moving solid billiard ball. In wound ballistics it not simply momentum or change in momentum that is important but the work done by the impacting body on the target Work = force X distance The SI unit of force is the Newton The SI unit for work is the Joule The rate of work is the Watt = Joule per second We know that the bullet has been gifted with a certain amount of kinetic energy. That is a Potential energy because not all of that energy translates to work done on the target. Some of the energy is "lost" to heat, some to sound. Some is used to deform the projectile. only the portion of energy that does mechanical work on the target to move material away form the penetrating projectile matters. It customary for ballisticians to refer to muzzle energy as useful and valid entity based on the knowledge that it is a potential energy only. It's usefulness based on certain premises and assumed prerequisites. We for instance have laws that govern permissible munitions in hunting based on this potential energy value. | |||
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The bullet, by itself is a static thing. It is not gifted with kinetic energy. It takes velocity to make it, dynamic, anything than a static object. The "gift" of the bullet is endowed by the manufacturer who use physics/math to provide something within certain parameters deemed desirable. Weight (mass) alone is not what they use to determine desirable, but weight to diameter ratio or aka sectional density, plus mfg techniques to achieve stability and integrity, within the desired velocity parameters.
So, state the obvious. Where is the problem? ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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WHOOEEEEEE, the testosterone and BS levels are so high you can't see the ground...Dam..ain't NOBODY right or wrong here, just differing perspectives getting covered with quasi-scientific nonsensical verbiage. WHATEVER bullet you use, if it kills, it kills, if not you made the wrong decision and need to reassess if you survive. Some people need to be Dan'l Boone and get to do it, others think hunters need to be the targets to save dwindling resources. I would HATE to be the one killing the last few members of a species, then walk around with a hard-on thinking I really did something...I think it should be Homo sapiens that is THAT species...sometimes...at least SOME OTHER species might last longer. Git a grip...if you want to argue semantics and BS, do it in your emails... This thread started out OK but then degraded, AS USUAL, into childish KRAP...ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to be learned and worse than tweeting garbage. Good Hunting and Merry...that  ANYWAY | |||
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  I like picking other's nonsense apart. But I also like sharing perspective and experience. If you are not learning something, then I suggest it's you, not the thread. Enjoy, Relax. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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The longer I have hunted the more I believe in heaver and tougher bullets for a caliber. The newer mono bullets are changing that view a little bit. I have had good luck with heavy hard cast bullets. Even at some what lower velocities they penetrate like heck and kill things well. | |||
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I have never understood the appeal of cast bullets in a rifle. I understand them for a pistol just fine. If hard enough, they act like a solid. My understanding of the purpose of a solid is to penetrate, bone and all, on the really big tough animals, with the intent of breaking something essential for moving, like a spine, shoulder, or brain. I can't imagine a solid being useful outside Africa. On a bear, for example, a spine shot or breaking a shoulder, to allow for a follow up shot, or a brain shot seems to me the only acceptable shot using a solid. It seems to me that an expanding, tough bullet is also capable of breaking bone, but if not then makes enough shock and damage to do a quick job anyway. So, someone please explain the appeal of a solid for use in North America - or Africa, whichever. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Heavy caliber hard cast (or equivalent) placed as shown. Within range at adequate impact speed punches clear through to sever the spinal chord and breaks both shoulders. 1 shot dead right there.   | |||
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Even if hit five inches lower, the shot would incapacitate. The problem is that's not the posture one would likely see when charged. Also, for defense purposes, a brown bear standing broadside isn't providing reason to shoot. There may be other circumstances, such as a black bear following and testing for vulnerability, or getting up the courage - which is almost surely predatory behavior. To be honest, if I or the company I was with was being followed by a black bear, and I couldn't get away, or run it off, I might just shoot the SOB and be done with it. BTW, those Remington factory loads, 405gr bullets, produce 1330 fps and 1590 ft lbs ME. https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...soft-point-box-of-20 I have tested those specific bullets in my 458WM, loaded to about 2000 fps. I shot several targets in the test, some for accuracy and some for penetration. Accuracy was no problem. Penetration at that speed was practically naught. I shot a soft dead and partially rotten spruce tree about 8" in diameter, and the bullet didn't exit. I dug in and the slug had just exploded. Those bullets are dead soft, look like pure lead. In fact, now I'm remembering those tests. I taped the targets to a large cardboard box, and the opposite side of the box (inside) from the entry hole was sprayed with lead wash. That meant the bullet started disintegrating on one layer of cardboard at that velocity. I loaded them down to around 1500 fps, and shot one deer with the load, in Texas, at about 100 yds. That worked fine. DRT. Big hole in - big hole out. I can only estimate the velocity at 100 yds, but you can do that too. I figured you would like to know that info. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I'm an A-Frame fan. Wish there was no hole in the bottom (maybe a solid boattail base)? Yes there's North Fork but they don't make their Soft Point in .510 caliber. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Head shot then. Don't miss.  | |||
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Cost being a big one for larger calibers. I think I cast them for a couple pennies each. I cast a hard 458 cal 460gr FP for my 45-70s even at a moderate speed of 1500fps out of a Ruger no.3 It has no trouble killing hogs of various sizes. One was about 250lb with a Texas heart shot running away hit at the base of the tail exited at the just below the snout. DRT others shot through the front from any angle dead really quick. | |||
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Actually there several opportunities with a frontal shot. Break any shoulder. Just hit the damn thing, then whack him again for good measure. If it's him or me, just get it done. On Chichagof Island I've been close enough to smell them, but never saw it. One like that lost his nerve and broke and ran. That was so spooky I can't describe it adequately. My buddy instinctively said "moose", but I knew that was no damn moose. Too many cracking branches. Plus there are no moose on the island. Remembering that raises the hair on the back of my neck even now. The thing is, for a split second, which seems like a long time, it's a big question of whether the bear is coming or going. Not being able to actually see the damn thing because the brush is too thick, and it being that close makes for a lot of after-thought about what-if. If his exit was that fierce sounding, what about a charge in that close situation. Split second for sure. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I load the 400gr Barnes Buster at 1800 fps muzzle speed in my .45-70 Marlin. Good reliable penetrator at close range. Also load the 405gr Remington JSP at 1800 fps. This one was recovered from Bull Moose at about 1650 fps impact speed. The 400gr Speer FNSP is of similar construction. Not very good penetrators.     | |||
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I think that hole doesn't matter in performance. That base jacket is thick, and the core is bonded to the jacket. Even if the bullet tumbles it will still penetrate and hold together - just deform a lot. The front half of the "A" frame is bonded too and the jacket is thinner up front and gets thick before the partition. this bullet is far and away different than the Nosler partition, which will shed much of the front - about 1/3 or greater of its weight. The Swift holds its weight very well. I have personally tested them on wet news paper and magazines stuffed tight in a tote. They penetrate very well and don't come apart. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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That's very encouraging. As you can imagine, my confidence level with that bullet was rather low, after the tests I did - long ago. The main thing is they didn't come completely apart at the speed you loaded. I still have a bunch of them. So, I planned on using them in my SOCOM for deer and hogs. Thanks for your test results. Now I know that in that cartridge I can load them to top loads per book, and shoot with confidence, assuming they feed. Oh - I took a second look at your pictures. You show a Speer 400 gr bullet. Is that the bullet mushroomed in the other pictures, or is it the 405 gr Remington bullet? ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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It's the 405gr Remington JSP recovered from a Bull Moose shot with a .45-70 Marlin. The 400gr Speer FNSP is thin-jacketed also. Both expand well but penetrate way less compared to the 400gr Barnes Buster. | |||
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That light # 3 must kick. I've shot some cast bullet loads, and messed around with casting some myself, using a friend's gear and help. I never took to it. I didn't like messing with the molten lead. So, I bought some already cast, lubed and gas checked. They are still on the shelf in the box they came in. I still have some interest in a muzzle loader, and figured some day to get one and use some sabot arrangement so I can use the cast bullets that way. I don't know if that would work? 458 bullets in a fifty muzzle loader? I don't know if they make sabots for that purpose, but they ought to. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I'm curious. I assume the moose died? How far did those 405 gr bullets penetrate? Also, is that Barnes bullet a solid? Have you killed anything with them? BTW, I really like the Marlin 45-70. Several friends had them and I got to shoot more than one at the range. But, I've never owned one. I had one of those Sharps modern production out of Big Timber Montana. Didn't like it. Sold. I had two Encores. One with the short barrel and muzzle brake. Damn thing kicked and the muzzle blast was awful. Sold. I also sold the other Encore after playing with it for a while. Then I tried the 450 Marlin in a bolt action. It didn't work out. Then I graduated to the bolt action 458. Now, the SOCOM. The barrel for the SOCOM came with a muzzle device, which I think is a brake rather than a flash hider. Based on my other experience with a break - the blast - I plan on not installing the damn thing on my SOCOM. I bought a thread protector, a threaded sleeve, and that's what I plan on using. I would far rather put up with a little more recoil than the blast. I have never worn hearing protection while hunting and don't plan to start. I always wear hearing protection at the range or just shooting other than hunting. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Raking shot, the Remington 405gr JSP penetrated only about 15". Broke the shoulder, snapped the spinal chord and lodged in the neck. Dropped dead right there. The 458 caliber 400gr Barnes Buster is a thick-jacketed lead core hollow point and has a hollow base. Not generally recoverable because it shoots clear through at most any angle like a solid. http://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/buster/   | |||
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Thanks for the info. I've shot a lot of the Barnes original 400 gr bullets. But I've never taken any animals with it. Mostly what I was doing was using the less expensive 400gr bullets for load development and familiarity, and testing my rifle and scope combo. For the actual hunting, I switched to the 400gr bear claw, which at the time I thought were very expensive bullets, and as I recall I bought only 25 of them. And at the time, at the range I used a 3X Leupold. The eye relief was long enough to be reasonably safe, and the recoil didn't break it. It worked, but the clarity was poor by today's standards, and the field of view was less too. It did slide in the rings after multiple shots, and I didn't want to glue it in. So, for the hunt I just used the iron sights. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Burris Z rings on my .45-70 Marlin. No issues with the scope sliding forward under recoil. Have seen that problem before on some of my real heavy kickers and solved it by moving the scope forward with the front ring against the turret (or ocular end against the rear ring, if possible) to prevent it from moving forward under recoil.  | |||
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IMO, that's rather impressive for such a soft bullet. I've taken two moose. The first was barely legal - just over 50". I was using a 338, and shot it three times. Lots of bloodshot meat. I probably didn't need to shoot it three times, but it wouldn't go down, and just stood there, head down. If I had waited it probably would have fell over, but I didn't want to take a chance and have it run off. That was an easy moose, close to town. The next one was much more of an adventure. I drew a tag for the hunt on the bench between Tustumena Lake and Skilak Lake on the Kenai Peninsula. That required boating and horses and an outfitter, which was an adventure in itself. That's the hunt I used my first 458. In that limited experience, there was an obvious difference on performance comparing bullet diameter. That moose was much larger, but the shot was one shot kill. Not DRT, but darn close. The shot was broadside through the chest and did not break major bones or spine. It was pure shock and fist size hole on exit. The outfitter sort of made sly jokes about my 458, but the results spoke for itself. Some of those outfitters are rough characters, and spending the whole season up there, living in a wall tent, tending horse and base camp doesn't help their disposition. This guy was nasty in several ways. He had the gall to make fun of my rifle, at first, but later, after I got the moose, he was cleaning his firearm, which I think was a lever 45-70, and he found that it wouldn't even fire because it was so dirty. No telling how long it had been that way. Of course I made no points with him when I made a big deal out of it and everyone in camp knew. In addition to a quite assistant, there were two commercial fishermen up there too, hunters with a permit, and they were just as rough as the outfitter, drunk or hungover the whole time, cursing and practically raging, playing a guitar and singing practically all Hank Williams songs, over and over, way into the night at the campfire. The guitar player got so drunk one night he fell face first into the campfire and they had to put him out. He singed his guitar too, and it didn't sound so good after that. Rather, it sounded worse than before. The outfitter got even with me when he practically demanded a nice tip later. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Miserable pricks eh. Good results with my .458 WM on Moose using the Hornady 500gr RNSP at 1950 fps muzzle speed. Close range with impact speed at about 1700 fps. Punches a big hole clear through the shoulders broadside. 1 shot dead right there. A rifle I like to hunt with in big Bear territory. | |||
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Yes, that 500 gr RN is a great choice. I've shot the 458 factory 510 gr load (as I recall) in my first 458 which had a factory barrel and chamber. Remember, I had the rifle cut down and lightened up to a carbine. That factory load kicked so hard that I thought my shoulder was dislocated. That's when I started handloading, and worked up to some rather stout loads, but not like that factory load. With the rifle I've got now, the throat won't allow for the longer 500 gr + bullets. That's okay since the 400 gr Swift will penetrate enough and run faster than the 500gr with a little less recoil. If I really wanted a heavy, Swift make a 450 gr bullet, as I recall with the same ogive as their 400 gr. I've not tested it, but as long as I could crimp in the right place, with the lee factory crimp die, I think I could use that 450 gr bullet in my 458. That ought to penetrate enough to satisfy anyone, and also expand enough to please those who like expanding bullets, plus provide the shock that I think is important. I've tested the Hornady 350 gr bullet a lot, and it's accurate in my rifle. I've never shot anything but targets with it, but there is plenty of favorable reviews from others who have shot moose, bear and such. It's not what I would call a soft bullet. I would use it on bear. Like I mentioned before, my hunch is that the 350 gr Barnes TSX would be great, running at 2500 fps MV and I've shot a few of them and they kick, but not in the shoulder dislocation class. My theory, for big bears, is to prefer the shock of an expanding bullet, that still penetrates and holds weight, but not like the heavies or the solids, which are more dependent on deep penetration. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Not finding .458 WM recoil to be excessive. Got my .458 WM Remington 798 now loaded with the 350gr TSX at about 2500 fps muzzle speed. A bit more range. Gonna give that a try. Have used the 300gr TSX at 2600 fps muzzle speed (in my .45-70 Ruger No.1). 1 shot dead right there on a big Bull Elk at about 150 meters. Hit the deck like a load of bricks fell on it. Devastating shock.    | |||
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That's the first report I remember about the 300 gr TSX. Thanks. Intuitively, one would think it would be great on elk and even moose. It's informative that at 150 meters it still produced plenty of shock, and presumably opened up. IMO, the TSX is worthless if it doesn't open and put those blades to work. Nice rifle, BTW. Elk too.************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I believe the .40+ calibers impart a lot of shock loaded at high speed. Always good results with TSX in .416 and .458 calibers. A .416 300gr TSX recovered from a Bull Moose shot with a .416 Ruger Alaskan. Impact speed was about 2450 fps. Piled up 1 shot dead right there.   | |||
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I have killed one brown bear. I don't like to talk about it because I'm not proud of it. I hope to never shoot another one. That may seem strange to some herein, but that's just the way it is. I can't help it. IMO, they are magnificent animals that don't deserve to be shot, just because I can. Can't eat um anyway. I now consider that kill a mistake, but didn't know that in advance, unfortunately. I thought it would be like my previous experiences with big game, but it wasn't the same.But I don't want to be attacked by a bear either. I used a 9.3x62 with handloads - the Lapua MEGA bullet. First shot was broadside, through the shoulders. It was a cold morning and I could see the steam plume from the bullet exit. The bear went down of course, and balled something awful, and rolled around but couldn't get up. I finished it with more shots for silence. The background and details and after-story are rather long, so I'll spare you. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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I always wanted a 416 Taylor, but couldn't justify it since I have the 458. ************* Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans. "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks" D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal. | |||
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Hunt for food, a passion. Moose and Elk...mmmm good. And organic. Used my .375 H&H Magnum on this here 52" Bull Moose, another commonly used big Bear caliber. Worked not too bad actually. But prefer the .40+ calibers. More shock, better chance it piles up right now.    | |||
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