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Karl, I guess Goldielocks was lucky... she only had to worry about three bears. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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And I seem to remember her bears were able to actually fit inside a house ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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HI, I like all the recommendations mention above. I will move to Ak, will use my 50-110. For a last option I would use my 500Linebaugh, but only if that is all I had at the time.I also think any of the big bore bolt actions would be great. Thanks,Kev | |||
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quote:This isn't quite correct. A 16" barrel is legal if it is stock from the factory, not modified. You can legaly own all the 'Trapper' style rifles with short barrels. You can own all the 12" barrel pump shotguns, as well. As long as the firearm comes form the factory that way, and it meets an overall length criteria. (For instance, a pistol grip 14" barrel shotgun would be illegal, but with a full stock it's fine.) | |||
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Mauserkid, The .450 Marlin is identical to a hot-loaded .45-70 (like the ammo from Buffalo Bore or Garrett). There is no difference; the .450 Marlin is an attempt to get money from people who don't know about those high-end loads. Get a .45-70-- it'll do everything the .450 Marlin will do, and there's no chance of the .45-70 becoming an "orphaned" cartridge. If you handload, you have the same options with both cartridges. If you don't, you'll have more choices in off-the-shelf ammo with the .45-70. I don't recall what they claim as .450 Marlin ballistics, but I shoot 400 gr. bullets at 1930 fps out of my Marlin .45-70. The recoil, due to the weight and stock design, is brutal. My .458 Lott is more pleasant to shoot. His shorty, with those full power "bear loads", is probably very painful to shoot. Better than being eaten, though. Pertinax | |||
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When people talk about guns for animal protection they are talking about shots out to so many feet not yards. My point is that the best rifle for the job is a shotgun. A double 12 guage is easy to point and shoot quickly. If 2 slugs don't work you were dead anyway. | |||
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Ok.... as to your side by side shotgun answer... what happens when the bear doesn't attack? What fun is it? ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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I bear stopper doesn't necessarily have to be a large bore, since shot placement is most important. I'd suggest a 338 mag, or stronger, in a boltgun, or a 45-70 or 450 Marlin, in a levergun, all using heavy bullets. Polar bears are near starving during the summer months (seals are out on the ice, they are not), which means you could be food quite easily. ~~~Suluuq | |||
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Pertinax,you have it right! I have been working on a cast 405 grain Marlin load all week,got it now. Anything from 1500 to 2100 fps (which is too much,definitely),the 1950fps had the best accuracy.1750 was good,too. Must have shot more than 200 rounds in the last four days, mostly from a bench.A recoil pad in a 1895 helps A LOT,I need one to make the stock longer anyway. Penetration and even expansion are both good,found the alloy at last.This load will replace my 350 grain Hornady @ 2150 fps from now on just because our dawgs sometimes find a brown bear instead of moose. ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} POI is the same at 75 yds. Vihtavuori N130 powder pushing these babies...  | |||
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NICE bullets. More specifics? Brinell hardness? Lube? etc. s | |||
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRHmDaDnwDU Don't be duped into thinking buckshot or deer slugs are an acceptable alternative. If you shoot a large bear with buckshot or regular slugs, you'll just piss him off. The 12 gauge and Brenneke 1 & 3/8 oz (600gr) black magic slugs are your best advice, as you are not hunting bear, and instead needing close in protection. This past Sept and up until mid-October I spend a lot of time neck deep in blueberry bushes in SE Alaska. At first I carried my 458, but keeping it handy began to wear my shoulders out, carrying the berry scooper and bucket too. So, I switched to carrying my 870 loaded with the Brennekes, which relieved the weight and was more plesant to carry. If I was HUNTING bear or moose, I would choose the 458. Altough the shotgun and slugs would do the job, they have very limited range usefulness where the 458 has all the range needed. After all, shots should be taken in personal protection from a bear in close encounters only, with no alternative for exit. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Kabluewy, You are spot on with the 600gr black magic slugs. But isn't this thread 10 and a half yrs old????? Did he go fishin and did the bear eat him or did he eat the bear!!! We need an update on the trip  | |||
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Kabluewy, this thread is from 2003...you must be Rumple Stillskin!!! :-) | |||
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Whatever you bring, make sure you put plenty of the rounds you plan to use through the action. I wouldn't use a new more powerful round in the 45/70 unless you're confident (by shooting them) that they will feed, shoot to point of aim, and extract well. Not meaning to say the ammo recommended isn't good, just make sure your rifle likes it before you count on it. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I use a Marlin guide gun for decades ,never have a problem ,and they are very practical specially is your goal is fishing and not hunting a bear i would carry that little carbine .With good Garrets you can stop a bear in his tracks . www.huntinginargentina.com.ar FULL PROFESSIONAL MEMBER OF IPHA INTERNATIONAL PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS ASOCIATION . DSC PROFESSIONAL MEMBER DRSS--SCI NRA IDPA IPSC-FAT -argentine shooting federation cred number2- | |||
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Man this winter is long already bring to life a 10 yoa thread plus I the mean time there has to have been several others on nearly the same subject. Now let talk about bear rifles the one you have in your hands at the time you need it is the best. Other then that a 6.5 or bigger with a heavy for caliber bullet should work well. | |||
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For big bear I've got a Steyr Pro Hunter in .376Steyr. It has a 20 inch barrel with an illuminated 1x to 4x scope. I've also mounted an RSR 2 to the side like my designated sniper rifle has. Plant the dot at close range pull the trigger. An old double rifle with tubes cut to 21 inches in .400J fills my bear medicine needs. JOE MACK aka The .41FAN HAVE MORE FUN AND GET THE JOB DONE WITH A .41 I am the punishment of God… If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you. (GENGHIS KHAN) | |||
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I'm surprised too. I don't know how that happened. I didn't notice the date of the last post until you mentioned it. I was assuming it was fresh.   KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Everyone has their favorite, a good thing as confidence in your gun is actually quite helpful. ADF&G and US Forest Service in Alaska use a lot of short (18-20") barreled 375 H&H bolt guns, both Winchester and Remington. There are some 338 Win's used also. There is a smattering of 30-06's for those deemed unable to use the 375's proficiently. Shotguns not so much. As both groups are not really wanting the paperwork with a dead bear, pepper spray is the preferred first defense. Defensive guns are a completely different animal than a hunting gun and tend to be of larger caliber than hunting guns. SHORT and fairly light with large bullets are usually what is found for strictly defensive use. If you get into a pissing match with a bear just pray that you have time to use whatever you're carrying before the bear arrives in your personal space.  | |||
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Or save your $$$ and DON'T buy the Lott reamer and use the .458WM as is. Just seat the bullets to Lott length (easy in the CZ) and you have Lott ballistics anyway... You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life... | |||
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www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152 Here is an interesting article.. You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life... | |||
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So the oldness of the thread must explain why no one mentioned the 20"-barrelled Ruger Alaskan in 416 Ruger calibre? So I'll add: a 20"-barrelled Ruger Alaskan in 416 Ruger calibre Use the iron sights as a camping/fishing defense gun, then put on a scope for a hunting rifle. It's a small neat package, 7.8 lbs without scope, with decent diameter and enough power for anything that moves. CEB or TSX bullets will guarantee any angle penetration. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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B&M Super Shorts.................. The End... http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I love the 45-70 in a short little lever gun. I think it is a great gun for anything in North America including the big bears with the right bullet. Fast handling and plenty of power. If I were going to be using a gun for back-up and packing everyday in rough weather climate I would agree with Michael that his B&M Super Shorts are the best. They can be stainless with a syn stock and really short and light weight. They are shorter and weigh less than the Marlin and have much more power. In the Model 70 SS action you can load the B&M Super Shorts to amazing power. I watched Michael's two sons smoke Austrailian buffalo with a 475 and 50 Super Short. All three B&M Super Shorts 458, 475 and 50 are great cartridges. CEB has got the perfect bullets designed for these and there isn't a bear out there that can take what these cartridges offer. More guides and PH's should look into the B&M line of cartridges for their backup guns. Sam | |||
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Srose is right - If you're not a reloader, the 45-70 in a guide gun package is the way to go. Several companies load bada$$ ammo that will take anything on earth. I have a stainless Wild West Guns "Guide" conversion that shoots the 45-70 and the 457 Wild West Mag interchangeably. Unbelievable horsepower in a very small package! | |||
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My pick of "Alaskan Combat Fishing and Bear Defense Rifle" would be either the Marlin 45-70 GG, or the .458 B&M M70. The .458 B&M is 1/2 pound lighter, and much more powerful. OK, I'll take both along. Gotta have a backup.  | |||
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That CZ is a tank and may carry like a truck axle. I've owned one for quite awhile, and it took a bit of work to make lighter, reliable and slick. My barrel is 22" and it sports NECG sights, but even so, she carries much heavier than a nimble sporter weight rifle. I'm of the opinion, the CZ is better fit for bigger chamberings. I'd personally be satisfied with a much lighter, quick handling 30-06. Something easy to manage and pack may prove handier. | |||
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Two Guns... Might have Two Bears......... "I have Two guns, one for each of you" My Two #1 Alaskan Rifles, 18 inch Ultimate stock 458 B&M 6.75 lbs, 38 inches overall length, very handy. Same with a 416 B&M..... However, the Super Shorts come in with 16.25 inch barrels, 36 inches overall, and 6.25 lbs.... Extreme Handy. 50 B&M SS 335 NonCon at over 2300 fps, 475 B&M SS with 325 NonCon at 2300 fps and 458 B&M with the infamous 250 Socom at near 2600+ fps... no bear is going to catch any of these, and hold them! We already have several guys in Alaska now with Super Shorts for this purpose. In a couple of weeks sending a 18 inch 416 B&M to a bear guide in Alaska, his choice for his backup rifle. Until you lay hands on one of these its hard to imagine just how good they really are. I do warn you however, once you lay hands on, you will be ruined for the rest of your entire life, you won't go to the field with anything else..... Or even consider it. Every time you drag out that 10 lb 4.5 foot long POS CZ you had before hand, you will ask yourself this; WHY? Then you will think back, "How in the world did I ever carry such a POS around for so Long?" HEH HEH... I know this as fact, as I think that every single time I drag out one of my 24 inch Winchester M70s in various 458s or 416s............... Never again....... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Socrates, Since you asked, I can only give you my opinnion and its certainly argueable it appears. I belive that going down below 500 grs. in the .458 is the wrong way to go..You loose the length of bullet and SD, even with a monolithic the velocity within the animal slows quicker. IMO a good rn soft that will expand is the way to go..A 500 gr. .458 loaded to 2000 to 2100 FPS will stop any animal alive and do it with class. I have always been opinionated on this subject and would opt for a 458 Lott loaded down to 2100 FPS to get away from compaction or load density that dominates the .458 Win..The conversion to the 458 Lott is inexpensive and easy to do, so why not, and you can still shoot .458 Win ammo in it..Seems like the thing to do. I belive the 9.3x62m 375, 416 and 404 are ideal bear guns, and bullet choice is more important than caliber..Also which one can you shoot best as to recoil..I am not sold on lead bullets when it comes to killing and animal quickly.. Push comes to shove with me, I will always pick a 404 Jefferys, I love the caliber and the design of the case. I am also confident that the 30-06 with a 200 or 220 gr. Nosler will surfice for dangerous game. It would be my minimum choice, but I would be comfortable with it. Its still a matter of bullet placement over anything else. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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How about a Benelli R1 semi auto rifle in .338 Win. Mag. cut the barrel to 16 1/2" install XS big dot sights. Forget about optics. Adjust the stock with the inserts provided for best fit. Use 250grain Swift A frame or similarly wicked bullet. Nothing will be as fast or light recoiling which aiding placement. Where a heavier caliber rifle can become a real challenge for repeated shots at the worst of times. Benelli's has proven it's dependability. While I am a Mauser/CRF staunch addict. I am thinking outside the box. | |||
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mlfguns I doubt that would be legal anywhere in Canada although it seems like a reasonable choice otherwise. | |||
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I actually have 2 rifles that fit the bill and one was actually constructed by Les Womack for an outdoor writer specifically for that purpose. Both are actually based on a 1903 Springfield platform. One an A3 but with regular bottom metal. Both have 16" barrels. The one constructed specifically for that purpose has had the barrel and all the fixtures cut to 16" length. Still has all the wood,handguards,etc,just shortened. The Bolt handled has been forged and the root of the bolt handle is so marked with Les Womacks distinctive 'Womack' stamp inside a border. It has a 3 position Mdl 70 type safety and has a Griffin and Howe side mount with a Lyman Alaskan scope. The side of the butt stock has a small (about 1 1/2") good quality compass inlaid in it.The original butt plate trap contained a plastic canister like Polaroid film swabs came in with polaroid film that contains a fishing line and some hooks and some matches. Looks like aexactly what it is a short 03 Springfield. The second 03 has the same bolt,safety,scope mount and the bolt handle rood is also marked with Womacks stamp though it appears to have been poorly stamped. The barrel is a rather heavy 458 chambered one with a Lyman Banded ramp that has been considerably worked over as the band appears very thin. The sight is a long Redfield Sourdough with a bronze insert. The stock is a nicely made Schnabel tipped one with 3 crosspins and nice checkering. It appears to be Birch with a steel gripcap.the rear sight is a fully adjustable open Williams on the barrel. The barrel band front sling swivel appears to be custom as it is open on top and unlike any I have ever seen. The trigger guard has been sculpted nicely as was done at the time. The buttplate is a Neidner checkered steel with widows peak. Trigger is a Timney on both rifles. The 458 barrel is marked A&M Rifle Co Inc in neat script. The Griffin & Howe mounts are well and professionally installed with no screws or pins showing. I would guess both rifles were built in the 50's when Womack and A&M were active. Both are excellent shooters and extremely well constructed. Out of the ordinary rifles and obviously purpose built. Incidentally both were purchased at the same shop here in Tucson, Az. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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Gents: Lots of nice rifles mentioned here. If not hunting but just self defense, I carry a pump shotgun (Win M-1300, but 870s are common) with slug loads. Quick, light, fast, cheap, and I don't care about the weather or if I damage it. Different story when I hunt, though. I carry a .450 or .600 double rifle and cry each time it rains! Cheers, fellas. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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from a forwarded email, but without the two pictures: Holding Bear's Paw These pictures are of a man who works for the US Forest Service in Alaska and his trophy bear. He was deer hunting last week when the large grizzly charged him from about 50 yards away. The guy emptied his 7mm Magnum semi-automatic rifle into the bear and it dropped a few feet from him. The big bear was still alive so the hunter reloaded and shot it several times in the head. The bear was just over one thousand six hundred pounds. It stood 12' 6' high at the shoulder, 14' to the top of his head. It is the largest grizzly bear ever recorded in the world. The Alaska Fish and Wildlife Commission did not let him keep it as a trophy, of course; but the bear will be stuffed and mounted, and placed on display at the Anchorage airport to remind tourists of the risks involved in the wild. Analyzing contents of the bears stomach, the Fish and Wildlife Commission established the bear had killed at least two humans in the past 72 hours, including a hiker missing two days prior to the bear's own death. Backtracking from where the bear had originated, the US Forest Service found the hiker's emptied 38-caliber pistol. Not far from the pistol was the remains of the hiker. The other body has not been found. Although the hiker fired six shots and managed to hit the grizzly with four (that the Service ultimately retrieved, along with twelve 7mm slugs, inside the bear's body), it only wounded the bear and probably angered it immensely. Think about this: If you are an average size man, you would be level with the bear's navel when he stood upright. The bear would look you in the eye when it walked on all fours! To give additional perspective, this bear, standing on its hind legs, could walk up to an average single story house and look over the roof; or stand beside a two story house and look in the upper bedroom windows. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I remember this from years ago, right after I had hunted Hinchinbrook with no success for bear: Snopes.com clarifies the exaggerations. http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/bearhunt.asp | |||
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Nothing larger than the .35 or the .366 on an -06 cartridge. If you're using a .375 or larger for bear defense its because you're scared or bored. | |||
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There are so many correct answers to your question. But for me, the ultimate gun for protection against bear of any kind while fishing would be a drilling set up as a 12 /12 /9.3x74, loaded with buck shot for an eye shot on the first shot, followed by a slug, then a 3rd shot with a 286gr solid. There are several accounts where the buckshot to the face is all that is needed. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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Scott....... Must be shooting "Rat Bears" up your way, with those "rat calibers"......... LOL...............   http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I use my 458 because I like it, and I have it, and it's a good excuse to tote it. Need it -- well that's debatable. I have toted my 30-06 for the purpose and occasion, but it surely doesn't feel right. Soon, I plan on getting my 458 out and using it for deer and hog hunting. I'll use some mild handload with the 300 gr Barnes SOCOM bullet or perhaps the 405 gr Remington jacketed soft FN. When last tested they shoot close to the same spot at 100yds or less. I think Scott is right about the 9.3 PROBABLY being big enough. I KNOW my 458 is big enough. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I have 06 scout that is very accurate with its 220gr hog load. Very handy I wouldn't feel bad about using that. | |||
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