What would generally be considered acceptable accuracy for hunting whitetail deer. I live in SE Oklahoma and would rarely have a shot over 200 yds. Under such conditions what would be acceptable 100 yd groups for my 30-06? 1", 1.5", 2" at 100 yds? I'm not a mathematics major, but is it in the ball park to say that a 1.5" group at 100 yds would be a 3" group at 200 yds? Is there a rule of thumb for such calculations? Yes, I would like for my gun to shoot .5" groups at 100 yds, but it won't.

The smaller the group the better as it instills more confidence in the shooter. However, anything from 2 inches down will be all the accuracy you will ever need. My father killed deer for 40 years with a Remington 742 that would rarely group less than 4 inches for 5 shots on a good day.

On our plot near Red Oak the only place we could take a 200 yard shot would be on a well service road or a well platform. Unfortunately, there are too many of those in a once prestine area.

Perry

Acceptable accuracy is what it takes to cleanly and humanely kill the game. A 3" group at 200 yards is good.

One thing most people don't bear in mind is that most animals don't have a bullseye glued on them. And there's not too many shooting benches that you can drag around in the boonies.

It doesn't matter if your rifle will put five shots in a .308 diameter hole at 300 yards.

The question is, can you keep your shots in an 8" circle at 100 or 200 yards standing on your hind feet, shouldering your rifle? That's what you need to be consistantly able to do under stress with adrenaline pumping.

If so, that's what it takes to get your deer. Go out and practice throwing the rifle to your shoulder and see if you can hit a 3lb coffee can or smaller target at 100-200 yds off hand.

Our Game Commission did a study. They determined that from the time you see a deer in brushy country(Western and Central Oregon). You have an average of 6 seconds to shoulder your rifle and shoot before the deer is gone.

Guys who can't shoot groups smaller than a dinner plate
still bring home venison.

Frankly I'd like to find the guy who decided that 1MOA (a bit over an inch at 100yd) was a "Benchmark" for rifle accuracy because whie it sounds "neat" in truth it isn't necissary, what it is is hyperbole, and I think that guy should have some sense "bitch slapped" into him.

I'll admit I don't go shopping specifically for
a LESS accurate rifle myself either, but I do not
believe greater accuracy confers any greater ability to bring home meat.

I remember in the 1970's that a car manufacturer was quoted as saying that "handling" was irrelevant because
"we can't advetize handling the way we can horsepower"
Well as soon as some brighter engineer did they started
advertising Drag coefficients and lateral G road holding, not
that anone buying a car understood those figuires, but they sure sounded cool....

Thus the saying: "minute of deer is more important than Minute of Arc"

Especially since a rifle that can shoot into less than an inch isn't any significantly more likely to hit the same point of impact offhand under field conditions on a live target at an unknown distance than a rifle and shooter that struggle to shoot into 3moa.

That is REALITY

Across an unknown distance on a slope in a variable crosswind? luck or telekinesis (guiding the bullet into the target by mental power) are more likely than skill or quality of rifle for explaining that perfect 375yard heartshot you made last year.

I've made two shots I consider spectacular, one at 420yards
against a feeding spike buck who was stupid enough to start nibbling stoff 20yards from a 400yads target stand.
I had a 25-06 and had JUST checked the sighting against that target after an inexplicable miss earlier that morning.


the other was with the same rifle against a running doe
and I managed to shoot her in the back of the neck/head as she jumped to clear a fence that I KNEW she had to jump over and that shot was well under 150yards, again with a varmint rifle.

I've shot atleast 10deer where a brown bess smoothbore
and a grotesquely undersized ball would have been accurate enough as the deer in question were literally within bayonet range.

Bow hunters rarely shoot further than 25yards, yet they get their deer too...

1" is an arbitrary accuracy standard.
the target you are shooting at in a deer is a little bit bigger than a baseball if you want a perfect heart shot that's what you've gotta hit, but in truth anywhere within a 4" radius(and greater in some directions) of that point will be just as fatal.

So if you can hit a 7" circle centered on the heart the deer will likely be DRT or only move a short distance.

What I tell people is if they can hit the bottom of a 3lb coffee can or gallon paint can at 200yards the rifle is good enough. any better doesn't impress the deer it's only useful for bragging.

Personally the only rifles I have that cannot reliably hit the bottom of a 12oz Coke can at 200yd are my 45-70
and my iron sighted (actually aluminum sighted, as the rear sight is a Williams FP) Winchester 94 30-30.
However, either rifle can keep all of their shots in a 5" circle at 200yds, so I only miss the bottom of a 1lb coffee can with either of my lever guns when it's particularly windy.

Not that it matters because I don't take those rifles anywhere where I am even remotely likely to have
a 200yd shot, that's why I own a 30-06 AND a
7mmMag (with a heavy barrel)

The only really valid purpose for more accuracy than you really need is to inspire self-confidence

Anything better than 1.5" to 2" at 100yds is "nice" but not strictly "necissary".

Insistance on having greater accuracy borders upon OCD.
The guys that insist on 1/2MOA FOR A HUNTING RIFLE have a severe case of OCD.

AD

Something else to add. A friend and I will often go out in the off season and practice by putting out a target (coffee can or deer sized hunk of cardboard). Back off about 100 yards and stand sideways to the target. Right handed shooters face to the left, left handers to the right so you have to turn to face the target. Don't turn your head and look at it. The non shooter will yell "go" and start counting out loud "1-1000, 2-1000, 3-1000 on up to 6 seconds. The shooter has to turn , aquire the target, shoulder and shoot before the counter gets to "6-1000".

It's great practice and fun. The counting out loud adds the adrenaline and edge.

I practice off a bench rest I load for accuracy off a bench rest. That being said what counts is not how accurate your rifle is rather how accurate you are with your rifle. Shooting paper is not like shooting living animals that can and will move while you are aiming. Paper doesn’t make your heart pump faster and give you the shakes only live game will do this. Yes I practice standing freehand but given the opportunity to use a tree limb, or a fence post I will grab at the chance every time.

If my accurate rifle with a scope and using a benchrest will not group 3/4" or less at 100 yards I get rid of it.

1.5 inches at 100 yards will put you inside the average cantelope (which is smaller than the average heart/lung area of deer) at 350 yards, easily accurate enough for any deer. if you keep your shots within ranges you are comfortable shooting you'll never have a problem.

6 inches would do the job at 100 yards-- i like mine to shoot better than this also. But it would work fine

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
What would generally be considered acceptable accuracy for hunting whitetail deer. I live in SE Oklahoma and would rarely have a shot over 200 yds.

Acceptable? 6" at 200 yards will still be putting the bullet in the kill zone.

Desirable? 1/2" or smaller at 200.

With the info you have given, you'll be fine with your current set up. No worries.

A 2 inch diameter circle arount your POA (1 inch on any side) at 100yds, using a rest, is gonna be excellent with most shooters and most rifles, for deer or other big game. Very few people and rifles will shoot better than this with factory loads.
Sandbagged prairie-dog shooters with handloads may scoff at this statement.

Red, you should always remember that if a rifle shoot 4" groups at 200 yards: Any one shot on average is no more than 2" from the point of aim, so benchrest accuracy is not required in the field. The confidence that it gives you to have the 1/2 minute rifle is rather nice to have though.

Shooting a 30-06 leaves room for it to be a fairly precise bolt gun or a fairly crappy semi-auto. For me, 1 MOA is a rifle benchmark in that a decent rifle with decent loads worked up by a decent reloader should be able to achieve that.

If I had to shoot factory ammo out of a semi-auto I might have to settle for four inch groups. That's life.

If I have a decent bolt action and I cannot bring it below an inch no matter what I do, it will belong to someone else before long

The way I look at it is if I can put every bullet in the same hole at 100 yards, then every thing larger than that that I can hit and still make a clean kill is just added room for me to make a mistake in. If I have a 6 inch diameter kill zone and my rifle puts every round into 1 inch I have 2 inches of forgiveness in every direction

That's what makes it worth the effort to get the best out of the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:
Shooting a 30-06 leaves room for it to be a fairly precise bolt gun or a fairly crappy semi-auto. For me, 1 MOA is a rifle benchmark in that a decent rifle with decent loads worked up by a decent reloader should be able to achieve that.

If I had to shoot factory ammo out of a semi-auto I might have to settle for four inch groups. That's life.

If I have a decent bolt action and I cannot bring it below an inch no matter what I do, it will belong to someone else before long

The way I look at it is if I can put every bullet in the same hole at 100 yards, then every thing larger than that that I can hit and still make a clean kill is just added room for me to make a mistake in. If I have a 6 inch diameter kill zone and my rifle puts every round into 1 inch I have 2 inches of forgiveness in every direction

That's what makes it worth the effort to get the best out of the rifle.

Your kidding Right?
my 30-06 semi gets 2 inch groups at 200yrds from the sticks(not a bench)... semi's are not inaccurate guns by all means

Growing up in Northern Minnesota I was always told that if you can hit a dinner plate at 100 yards you and your gun are ready for hunting Whitetail. In fact with an old WWII Mauser in 8X57 with a rather poor barrel it always worked for me. Never failed to get a deer all of the years I hunted Minnesota. Now that I am out West I like 1 MOA. Also have quite a bit more experiance with rifles and bit more money for a better rifle. Back home Minute of Deer is about 12" at 100 yards.

My requirements are 1" from the bench. While the hunting here is mostly withing 50 yds it's comforting to have an accurate rifle when you have to place a bullet in a small opening in brush or when only a small bit of deer is visible.The vital area is considered about 10 " but everything is additive.1" + some for wind ,uncomfortable position, cold , tired etc.It's paid off when for example I shot through a 4" opening to get the deer. Knowledge of anatomy is important also.

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
What would generally be considered acceptable accuracy for hunting whitetail deer. I live in SE Oklahoma and would rarely have a shot over 200 yds. Under such conditions what would be acceptable 100 yd groups for my 30-06? 1", 1.5", 2" at 100 yds? I'm not a mathematics major, but is it in the ball park to say that a 1.5" group at 100 yds would be a 3" group at 200 yds? Is there a rule of thumb for such calculations? Yes, I would like for my gun to shoot .5" groups at 100 yds, but it won't.

Well Red my question to you is why won't it and what are ya doing about it.
If you don't mind spending a little on the rifle you might be surprised and just how good it will shoot.
Bed it, free-float the bbl, get a trigger job, and if needed a quality scope. Many times I have done a bed and free float for fellas and turned their rifles into tack drivers. I won't mess with another fellas trigger but they usually get them smithed.
A decent scope can make a big difference too, especially if its mounted properly!
So don't give up on ole Betsy yet just get her a little tlc and then look out.

Interesting thread.
When I first started Deer hunting in Pennsylvania in the late 1940's, a rifle that would shoot 3" groups at 100 yards was considered adequate for Deer. Not many scopes were used on Deer rifles back then, so iron sights ruled. 35 Remingtons were used by a lot of hunters I knew. My first Deer rifle was a Remington Model 722 in 300 Savage, and I shot my first Deer with it in 1950, with iron sights.

Don

Regarding that mystical .5. Many, many talk that talk but not too many walk that walk when it comes down to targets and measuring sticks and WITNESSES. Consistantly.
I've seen it happen at the factory matches too many times.
Usually, the difference between a 1.5" rifle and a .5" rifle is quite a bit of tweaking and a whole lot of practice, practice, practice. Even if the rifle is up to it, you don't just sit down and start pumping out .5 groups.

Ain't that the truth, I have shot sub .5 groups with 3 of my rifles but those groups don't come everytime. I think in my case it is my errors rather than the rifles, rather it be shooting or reloading. I can usually go sub 1" but .5 every time is elusive. As a michigsn whitetail hunter I was always concerned of shooting thru small holes in the trees or brush so I wanted to know my trajectories to about 200. Anything that grouped more than 1"-1.5" wouldn't allow me to pick a spot in the brush I could get a bullet thru and make a clean kill.

I have know a couple of guys for years that just do not take the sighting in thing very seroiusly. When they get to the field they are deadly shots. They simply have no interest in shooting paper. I can shoot their rifles and get 3/4" groups. They are out there at 3"+.

With my deer/elk/antelope rifle I try only to get on an 8 inch paper plate at 200 yrds. Amazingly this horribly inacurrate shooting has managed for me to only have to shoot twice at one animal in the last 5 yrs, and he was already dead, just neither he nor myself knew it.

4" at 200 will get the job done.

I guess that I should qualify my 12" at 100 yards as minute of deer statement. That figure would not apply to bench shots, only positions normally used in the field. I remeber that I could get about 3 to 4" off the "bench" with that old Mauser when my mentor told me to stand and shoot off hand at the same target. Needless to say I had a bit more work to do. Not to many benchs in the woods. Finally got to where I could hit a dinner plate (actually paper plate) regulary in any position at 100 yards. I then passed the "test" went hunting with the group and got my first whitetail that year.

Here is my take. If my pistol/rifle is capable of MOA, my bullet strikes within 1" of my aim-point at 100 yds. If my pistol/rifle shoots 6 MOA, and I am holding 6 " high, I might miss, not acceptable. Talk all you want, talk is good, venison is better.

Thanks for all the input Interesting and informative reading. Has really been helpful. Think I'll keep my old 30-06. It shoots more than adequately to take deer where I hunt, if I'll do my part, and I will. You guys have given me some good ideas for practicing. Thanks!

Perry (PWN375)
We don't live too far from each other. I live over just west of McAlester and my son-in-law has a ranch over by Wilburton where I hunt some. The vast majority of my deer are taken under 100 yds, but occasionally out to 150. My farthest one was 220 yds, but there are very few good hunting spots where I have a shot that far. I've been trying to determine what the capability of my old NEF 30-06 is, so I'll know what situations to use it. Good Luck and Good Hunting in Red Oak! P.S. Yes, there are getting to be way too many gas wells over here too, and it is beginning to have some affect on our hunting.

In my humble opinion, a shooter should be able to put rounds in about an 8" circle at the range they are shooting using similar rifle hold. If you can only do that at 50 yards, then don't shoot past that. If you can do it at 800 yards, than go for it.
I can only do that leaning to about 200 yards leaning, so anything past that I have to do with a rear rest of some sort. My Hunting rifle will hold a .75" 200 yard group very regularly, but I can't do that with just a leaning aim.

I want my rifles to shoot 1" or less, I am somewhat of a accuracy freak, I might want to poke something in the eye...The year I had a hog stick his head out of the high grass, I shot him in the eye, I might not have done that with a less accurate rifle than my 6x45..

My rifles are very capable of sub MOA shooting, off a benchrest... I can come pretty close to that while sitting or prone... My off hand shooting on the other hand sucks (at least from greater than 50 yards)... I've accepted that fact and simply won't take an "off hand" shot without something to rest the forend... I find that if you can hit consistently within 3 or 4 inches of POA at 100 to 150 yards you are good to go.. Though we have a long shot range here I don't regularly practice there... The normal range goes to 200 and I'm very confident at that range either sitting or prone or a supported off hand shot... Much further then that I generally won't take the shot because I'm not practiced at those ranges...

Ken....

Minute of deer is rather large. If you limit your shots to 200 yards, then a gun shooting a 4" group at 100 yards will get the job done if you can hold it well.
That said, i have not seen many, if any, guns that shot that bad.
I shoot a rifle that shoots everything i can load or buy at or under 1 1/2"s. I have practiced long range and off hand. Sitting and prone. I am very comfortable shooting out to 450 with a rest, 350 off my knee, and 200 off hand. The gun is more than accurate enough.

Busted a coyote this past season at around 450, on the lope and off my knee. He rolled and i smiled.

The reason for all that is to state that i have a great deal of confidence in that rifle although it is not the most accurate deer rifle i own, it is the gun i have made some of my most memorable shots with.

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
What would generally be considered acceptable accuracy for hunting whitetail deer. I live in SE Oklahoma and would rarely have a shot over 200 yds. Under such conditions what would be acceptable 100 yd groups for my 30-06? 1", 1.5", 2" at 100 yds? I'm not a mathematics major, but is it in the ball park to say that a 1.5" group at 100 yds would be a 3" group at 200 yds? Is there a rule of thumb for such calculations? Yes, I would like for my gun to shoot .5" groups at 100 yds, but it won't.

A hunter who was a good rifleman would have little difficulty harvesting deer w/ a 3MOA rifle. There was a time when a 1.5MOA rifle was considered highly accurate and in the hands of a hard holding Marine would be capable of impressive field accuracy well beyond 200yards.

GVA

How about hitting a canteloupe at 300yds ? I can do it every time with my inaccurate Bar 06 and my lousey ...............remington 7400

Whew, I know I came in here late, but I can't BELIEVE some of the stuff I'm reading. Aside from what you might owe the animal you're takeing, what the hell are you guys thinking about what you owe YOURSELVES?

If I had a gun that wouldn't shoot less than 1 MOA out of the box from a bench rest, I'd trade it in. It is absurd to be satisfied with "acceptable" standards in hunting. Not very often will you ever get into a situation where you have the perfect rest and the stationary animal to shoot at that a bench rest offers you. So now your one minute of angle becomes a 4 to 6 inch group and that's if you don't get buck fever. If you're an ethical hunter wanting to put the animal in a pile on the spot and enjoy taking that high should shot that will do that, then you're SOL with a 6 inch group. When you're talking "acceptable", nothing but the best should ever be considered. If you're satisfied with less, your expectations should shadow right along.

No offense intended; But if a person is a 4 to 6MOA shooter from field positions, I think learning to shoot in the field would be the ethical choice over obtaining a 1MOA bench gun.

A marksman w/ a vetted 1.5 to 3MOA rifle would have little difficulty in cleanly and ethically harvesting deer. A person w/ a sub-MOA rifle shot from a machine rest who is a poor marksman from field positions would probably be the one having issues.

GVA

George,
I need to find out where you buy your rifles and what brand. In my life I think I have had two out of 20+ rifles that would shoot less than MOA out of the box. That old Mauser that was my first deer rifle was a POS.. But after I learned to shoot it within its limits I never felt I was unethical or not giving the game its due respect. In fact of the dozen or more deer I got with that rifle none required a second shot. Granted in Northern Minnesota woods the longest shot was perhaps 75 yards. Now with a little more experiance I expect much better accuracy out of the box, but a clean kill on a whitetail is still hitting a 12" kill zone area. If a person can hit that area reliaby it will result in deer in the freezer.

Gary, that's apples and oranges to me. Any hunter should know his or her physical limitations before ever setting a buttstock to their shoulder. The disciplines of a bench rest shooter are the same in the field. If you don't have the strength to hold the gun up for the require period, you use the shooting sticks like all African PH's carry. I like the Stoney Point with the two extenible legs. I use it as a walking stick, and carry it to my stand and adjust it accordingly. I'm not a bit ashamed of doing what's necessary to steady my aim and make a good shot. I don't shoot at running deer anyway, so it works for me. It only makes sense to insure ANY gun is 1 MOA at any distance from the bench before taking it afield. That insures that when I'm NOT, I can feel reassured that the gun is. All my training over the years demanded that I be able to "call my shot". If I don't know where the bullet is supposed to be, how can I know where it went the moment I pulled that trigger. Twelve inches won't cut it for me. I don't shoot at "spots", I shoot at "hairs" when I'm hunting big game.

George, why don't you post a few pictures of your groups and show us....

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:
Shooting a 30-06 leaves room for it to be a fairly precise bolt gun or a fairly crappy semi-auto. For me, 1 MOA is a rifle benchmark in that a decent rifle with decent loads worked up by a decent reloader should be able to achieve that.

If I had to shoot factory ammo out of a semi-auto I might have to settle for four inch groups. That's life.

If I have a decent bolt action and I cannot bring it below an inch no matter what I do, it will belong to someone else before long

The way I look at it is if I can put every bullet in the same hole at 100 yards, then every thing larger than that that I can hit and still make a clean kill is just added room for me to make a mistake in. If I have a 6 inch diameter kill zone and my rifle puts every round into 1 inch I have 2 inches of forgiveness in every direction

That's what makes it worth the effort to get the best out of the rifle.

Agreed. Tune your loads, dial it in for point blank range, and then practice shooting in field positions, sitting, kneeling, and standing. Prone for western antelope hunters and other game where you have a chance to get prone, for that is the steadiest shooting position.

I shoot hundreds of rounds every year from standing and kneeling positions with four different rifles. Practice makes the shooter. If you only shoot one box of ammo the week before the season opener, be prepared to miss. If you shoot several hundred rounds throughout the year and stay current, you'll likely score. Shooting is a frangible skill.

jwp, I can see that you're a legend in your own mind, but I'm wondering if you're actually old enough to vote yet. A three shot group with less than a minute angle would look the same regardless of who fired it. I COULD show you a shotgun slug group of less than a minute angle if I'd bothered to keep it. I just ASSUMED that any responsible shooter would be able to do the same if he'd matched the rounds to his firearm properly and used good glass. Sorry to hear you aren't able to perform the same way.

Now, just a question here for the adult contributors. I suppose I've been fortunate, but I've always heard that the semi's are not on the same par with the bolts. To some degree, I can buy that because of the loose tolerances at the breech to handle the feed. HOWEVER, is it that far off for some of you? Jim Carmichael in one of his shooting books says that the 'average' shooter won't notice that much difference in a hunting situation. I own BAR's in .243 and .300 Win Mag. The .300 is a 1 MOA gun when rested properly (I tend to shoot it at 3 MOA cause I just like blowing rounds that make big BOOMS quickly). But the .243 is a subminute of angle gun. I put 2 shots in a penny and the third one touching the rim. Did I just get lucky with these two guns?