quote:

DB, doesn't need a lot of post to spot you for your "Imaginary Intelegence"

Damn good reply.

I have seen way to many of these sub MOA artists show up in camp, complete with a loose leaf binder and some of "Their Targets" in tow.

Problem was that when you get them set up shooting at hair, they are some of the most piss poor animal wounders on the planet.

I will go with minute of critter accuracy over 1 hole bench shot groups any day.

Besides, unless I am really naive, or all those critters I killed were not actually dead when I gutted them, the first well placed shot finished the job so that shots 2 and 3 were not needed.

Thank you two for validating my post. Crazyhorse, since you made such an insightful post about MOA shooters, why don't you scroll back up to the one with the pictures of pockmarks in the steel plate and see what pigeon the crap came from that you're smearing around. I just asked an honest question, and the little girls tea club showed up to protect their own. And don't worry, I've seen your types my whole life and I still sleep well at night. OH, and BTW, all the animals save one Axis deer were killed during fair chase hunts, not in some game farm.

Hey george, I have some more shooling for you in the Handgun Hunting section....

Give it a rest.... This is getting old quick.

Hello,
Tell you what to do when assesing someone's shooting skills and the ability of his rifle/firearm is to merely inquire about his various hunting experience, both good ones and bad ones(we all have them,) but if you want to find out if the person has done a lot of shooting, and I do not mean from a bench, sticks, rest, bipods, etc., inquire if he has a certification as either a High Power Shooter or a Long Range Shooter. Those with Master or above have definitely done a lot of shooting and have had a lot of difficulty in attaining those levels of skill. It aint easy! I pretty much disregard those claims of shooting when a bench or rest is involved and so do the rest of the Master or High Master shooters.

Oh Jesus, now we got to have a certificate to shot a fucking deer? What about the tens of thousands of us great unwashed that have never heard of that particular batch of back patters? Does that mean we can't shoot? You sound as bad as the auttermatic shooter.

Shooting paper and shooting game aren't the same thing........

Amazing this thread has gone this far and gotten so personal on such a simple question.

Personally, I'm in 100% agreement with Mr. Roof and Mr. Atkinson about my accuracy requirements in a hunting rifle. If a gun I'm going to use for hunting won't shoot less than MOA (not counting lever actions, and I like them to be damn close to that level or they go away too)then it can go on down the road and hopefully my "go to" rifles shoot WAY less than MOA. But I am fortunate in that I can pick and choose what rifles I use and I choose to use damn accurate rifles.

Is that level of accuracy really necessary, certainly not, but just like Mr. Roof says, it helps when you KNOW the gun will do its part, and all you have to do is yours. Anyone who has competed at upper levels of almost any sport knows that MENTAL CONFIDENCE is a HUGE part of success. For me, as well as for many others, accurate rifles are a great start for giving me confidence. A good trigger doesn't hurt either. Of course, without going into all the paper plate scenarios, all the above has to be coupled with practice and more practice. I don't practice as much as I used to, but then, I've been shooting a helluva lot for over 50 years and I'm not nearly as mad at them as I used to be either. As a side comment, the "3 seconds" and shoot deal is kind of silly IMO, that goes back to the mentality of "I've got to kill something".....no you don't, you can pass on the shot if you don't have the time or don't like it. Many hunters should do this more often.

What would I consider the absolute maximum level of acceptable accuracy? Well, that depends, but certainly anything over 3 MOA would be out, unless I was in a jungle somewhere and they handed me the only gun they had and said "tirelo (shoot him)." Been there, done that. It is situationally dependent, but for a North American average conditions hunting rifle, I'd say 2 MOA should be the max UNLESS your are using something like a 94 in .30-30 and restricting your shots to under 100 yards.
Does all that make me a rifle snob? Damn right, I like my rifles to shoot a helluva lot better than I can and I can shoot pretty good.

Finally, I don't own any Browning lever actions, but I've got a Savage 99 in .308 that is sub MOA any time you care to shoot it from a benchrest, it used to be a lot less than that until I cracked the stock. I don't see any reasons why a Browning BLR can't be in that league as well.

I don't know him but Mr. Roof can come hunt on my little chunk of God's country (that's abbreviated TX for those not in the know ) anytime, some of the others need not apply.

Gatogordo, very well written post. I could not add one thing to your post.

Thank you Gatogordo. I was beginning to think that my form of "ethics" was an endangered species on this forum. It's gratifying to know there are still some people who take pride in the standards they set for themselves.

quote:

I'm no legend in my own mind

quote:

Go to Amazon.com and click on books. Type in my name and send them some money so I can pay a few more of my bills. LOL

Some contradiction here....

I've got to say, you must be an expert. You wrote a $14 booklet(on sale for $8) on Bisquits and Squirrels. I'll bet that made the best seller list.

That dashing cover photo is quite an inspiration too. Squatting in a corn field with a shotgun, just screams rifleman to me.

I've seen your type all my life. You try to shout down and bullyrag people into thinking that you are somebody. The truth is the more your mouth flaps the more insignificant you become. Just from what you've posted in this thread exposes a transparent bloated ego, nothing more.

BTW, I've never owned a Browning, because I have shot them. Decided to buy a good rifle instead.

You have a wonderful weekend...

Now I've got 14 posts.

Well, DB, why don't you give us a list of your writing/publishing and hunting accomplishments and then we can decide if you have the standing and understanding to be so critical of others? Based on your screen name, all we can guess is that you admire a dead thief.

It is extremely rare today not find a factory rifle - bolt action - that cannot be made to shoot within 1 MOA off the bench.

But, in the field, I found that the person behind the rifle is the weakest link.

Hunting accuracy requires a different technique than shooting off the bench. I have seen people who are great shots from rest, find it very hard to shoot accraterly in field conditions.

Off the becnch, one has to SQUEEZE the trigger SLOWLY.

In the field, one has to YANK the trigger.

It seems there more people who are very good at SQUEEZING rather then YANKING accrately.

It is really like shooting at a moving target. There is a precise instant that you have to pull the trigger to hit your target.

No matter how accurate the rifle is, if it is not pointing in the right direction at the instant the trigger is pulled, it will not hit anything.

quote:

Originally posted by D B Cooper:

quote:

I'm no legend in my own mind

quote:

Go to Amazon.com and click on books. Type in my name and send them some money so I can pay a few more of my bills. LOL

Some contradiction here....

I've got to say, you must be an expert. You wrote a $10 booklet on Bisquits and Squirrels. I'll bet that made the best seller list.

That dashing cover photo is quite an inspiration too. Squatting in a corn field with a shotgun, just screams rifleman to me.

I've seen your type all my life. You try to shout down and bullyrag people into thinking that you are somebody. The truth is the more your mouth flaps the more insignificant you become. Just from what you've posted in this thread exposes a transparent bloated ego, nothing more.

You have a wonderful weekend...

Now I've got 14 posts.

Never assume anything, it makes you look like an ass. If you have no idea about his book, how can you comment on it? If you don't know the man personally, how can you judge him?

I think you need to step back and think before you post. Assuming gets people into trouble.

I agree with George about shooting abilities. I have an arsenal of guns and they all shoot very well. I take pride in my shooting ability and if a gun is not accurate, it gets the boot.

I don't agree that shooting targets and shooting animals is any different, the only difference is the mind set of the hunter. If my gun shot MOA on paper, it will shot MOA on game. The guns accuracy does not change, the shooter is the only variable in the equation.

And for the record, I have seen George shoot, he is an accomplished shooter and outstanding hunter.

The problem in this thread is, some guys just can't handle the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It is extremely rare today not find a factory rifle - bolt action - that cannot be made to shoot within 1 MOA off the bench.

But, in the field, I found that the person behind the rifle is the weakest link.

Hunting accuracy requires a different technique than shooting off the bench. I have seen people who are great shots from rest, find it very hard to shoot accraterly in field conditions.

Off the becnch, one has to SQUEEZE the trigger SLOWLY.

In the field, one has to YANK the trigger.

It seems there more people who are very good at SQUEEZING rather then YANKING accrately.

It is really like shooting at a moving target. There is a precise instant that you have to pull the trigger to hit your target.

No matter how accurate the rifle is, if it is not pointing in the right direction at the instant the trigger is pulled, it will not hit anything.

Saeed, I guess I was typing when you posted your post. I guess great minds think alike...lol

Well, Stillbeeman, until you can present some level of classification, either High Power or Long Range, you can not shoot. Go to a local match and give it a whirl, you might even learn something about shooting, your rifle, and yes, even your personality and attitude. Wouldn't that be worth your time??
Go shoot a High Power Match or Long Range Match and then let us all know how well you did. Believe it will be a real eye opener, but some folks simply do not want to be confused by the facts or truth. Oh, and by the way clean up your language in your postings, it is not becoming nor necessary.

quote:

Never assume anything, it makes you look like an ass. If you have no idea about his book, how can you comment on it? If you don't know the man personally, how can you judge him?

I think you need to step back and think before you post. Assuming gets people into trouble

I'm not assuming anything. "Ol One Hole" has confirmed everything by his own words.

And before you start making threats Sweetheart. You should step back and think.

By the way what's the story here? You and "Ol One Hole" dating? You keep jumping in and "rubbing" his ego.

quote:

Originally posted by dsiteman:
Well, Stillbeeman, until you can present some level of classification, either High Power or Long Range, you can not shoot. Go to a local match and give it a whirl, you might even learn something about shooting, your rifle, and yes, even your personality and attitude. Wouldn't that be worth your time??
Go shoot a High Power Match or Long Range Match and then let us all know how well you did. Believe it will be a real eye opener, but some folks simply do not want to be confused by the facts or truth. Oh, and by the way clean up your language in your postings, it is not becoming nor necessary.

I don't have to participate in shooting matches to make me an accomplished marksman. I don't need a certificate to prove my abilities to you or anyone else for that matter.

I do know, when I shot my rifles and handguns or whatever I am shooting, I am going to shoot them well.
Weather I am shooting a target or an animal.

I think you need to re-read the above posts.

quote:

Originally posted by D B Cooper:

quote:

Never assume anything, it makes you look like an ass. If you have no idea about his book, how can you comment on it? If you don't know the man personally, how can you judge him?

I think you need to step back and think before you post. Assuming gets people into trouble

I'm not assuming anything. "Ol One Hole" has confirmed everything by his own words.

And before you start making threats Sweetheart. You should step back and think.

By the way what's the story here? You and "Ol One Hole" dating? You keep jumping in and "rubbing" his ego.

I made no threats, there you go thinking again, kind of like working without a tool box, smart guy.

No we are not dating, but you seem to be the one with the sugar in your tank, calling me sweetheart. Only my wife calls me that. Your on the wrong site for that.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo: Based on your screen name, all we can guess is that you admire a dead thief.

And so you admire Fat Cats?

I have no need to prove anything to anyone. I know who I am and what I can do. I'm not the one who is claiming to be The world's all around best shot, author and critter stuffer. I'm merely letting George prove to everyone who he really is. A bully and a blow hard with an idolized ego who thinks the world of himself.

Hold it!! Let me get my shoes off...Yup! That makes 16 posts.

quote:

Originally posted by D B Cooper:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo: Based on your screen name, all we can guess is that you admire a dead thief.

And so you admire Fat Cats?

I have no need to prove anything to anyone. I know who I am and what I can do. I'm not the one who is claiming to be The world's all around best shot, author and critter stuffer. I'm merely letting George prove to everyone who he really is. A bully and a blow hard with an idolized ego who thinks the world of himself.

Hold it!! Let me get my shoes off...Yup! That makes 16 posts.

Nor does Mr. Roof if you'd read his posts instead of engaging your obvious inferiority complex.

Yeah, I like fat cats, I are one, on multiple levels, it is a pun in Spanish, probably you wouldn't understand.

quote:

Originally posted by D B Cooper:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo: Based on your screen name, all we can guess is that you admire a dead thief.

And so you admire Fat Cats?

I have no need to prove anything to anyone. I know who I am and what I can do. I'm not the one who is claiming to be The world's all around best shot, author and critter stuffer. I'm merely letting George prove to everyone who he really is. A bully and a blow hard with an idolized ego who thinks the world of himself.

Hold it!! Let me get my shoes off...Yup! That makes 16 posts.

Doesn't take smart people a lot of post to reconize the PAPER HAT BRIGADE.......PRICELESS

quote:

Yeah, I like fat cats, I are one, on multiple levels, it is a pun in Spanish, probably you wouldn't understand.

I understand completely. More's the pity...

Now you're going to impress me with your power and wealth?

Hold it, let me catch my breath, lest I swoon.

Let's see...carry the one, That makes 17! When do I get my decoder ring?

quote:

Originally posted by D B Cooper:

quote:

Yeah, I like fat cats, I are one, on multiple levels, it is a pun in Spanish, probably you wouldn't understand.

I understand completely. More's the pity...

Now you're going to impress me with your power and wealth?

Hold it, let me catch my breath, lest I swoon.

Let's see...carry the one, That makes 17! When do I get my decoder ring?

Wow it did not take you long to make new friends here... Keep going you may just be down to one now...lol

New guy starting shit already.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by D B Cooper:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo: Based on your screen name, all we can guess is that you admire a dead thief.

And so you admire Fat Cats?

I have no need to prove anything to anyone. I know who I am and what I can do. I'm not the one who is claiming to be The world's all around best shot, author and critter stuffer. I'm merely letting George prove to everyone who he really is. A bully and a blow hard with an idolized ego who thinks the world of himself.

Hold it!! Let me get my shoes off...Yup! That makes 16 posts.

Doesn't take smart people a lot of post to reconize the PAPER HAT BRIGADE.......PRICELESS

Do you realize how stupid that sounds, but I guess you don't care, that is your comfort level...

quote:

Wow it did not take you long to make new friends here... Keep going you may just be down to one now...lol

I don't want you as a friend. And I'm not the one starting shit. A member asked for advice on hunting accuracy. Several of us were offering help from our experience.

Then P T Barnum and his hunchbacked sidekick jumped in regaling us with his been there done that B.S. "Even seen me a squirrel stampede once't."

The hero doesn't need friends. He has you to fawn over him and his Bisquit hunting exploits. Did you ever consider growing a life?

Red C.
I would disagree with you! Your rifle can do .5" groups or better! It's you that can't! Now to answer your question if you get a constant 1.5" at 100 yds then you have the accuracy to hunt whitetail out to 250 yds confidently! If you want to extend the range to your rifles potential(400 + yds) then you need to get to.5-.75" groups consistantly at 100. yds!!We are the limiting factor's of our rifles not the other way around!

quote:

Originally posted by D B Cooper:

quote:

Wow it did not take you long to make new friends here... Keep going you may just be down to one now...lol

I don't want you as a friend. And I'm not the one starting shit. A member asked for advice on hunting accuracy. Several of us were offering help from our experience.

Then P T Barnum and his hunchbacked sidekick jumped in regaling us with his been there done that B.S. "Even seen me a squirrel stampede once't."

The hero doesn't need friends. He has you to fawn over him and his Bisquit hunting exploits. Did you ever consider growing a life?

What an asshole, move on with all your knowledge. We can see you for what you are.

Who is "we"? You & george??

quote:

What an asshole, move on with all your knowledge. We can see you for what you are.

Well, oh yeah!

What a snappy comeback! The sign of an intellectual individual. I wasn't aware that you and ol' one hole owned the forum.

Cute little monster thingy. Is it yours?

quote:

Originally posted by dsiteman:
Hello,
Tell you what to do when assesing someone's shooting skills and the ability of his rifle/firearm is to merely inquire about his various hunting experience, both good ones and bad ones(we all have them,) but if you want to find out if the person has done a lot of shooting, and I do not mean from a bench, sticks, rest, bipods, etc., inquire if he has a certification as either a High Power Shooter or a Long Range Shooter. Those with Master or above have definitely done a lot of shooting and have had a lot of difficulty in attaining those levels of skill. It aint easy! I pretty much disregard those claims of shooting when a bench or rest is involved and so do the rest of the Master or High Master shooters.

Shooting from a bipod or "sticks" in the field
is entirely acceptable in my book.
Hell I'll use every advantage I can find.

Next thing you'll be telling us that using scopes, particularly high power scopes instead of the iron sights on your Palma rifle is "cheating".

No you haven't said this yet. but that is the ATTITUDE that is comming across.

like someone else said, paper shooters and "hair" shooters are quite different.

Sometimes skilled target shooters do translate to superb field marksmen, Carlos Hathcock springs to mind, but I think he is the exception that proves the rule rahter than an example that target marksmen make good hunters.

If I were looking for expert longer range field shooters I'd look not for expert paper shooters... I'd look for guys buying 40gr 223 varmint bullets 1000 at a time, or anyone buying Benchmark in a large container...
In other words Varmint shooters.

a typical varmint shooter has more trigger time on live moving animals than any large collection of target shooters combined.

And BTW, the guys who spend all that time getting awards and official ranking for target shooting?
I would not take the advise of ANY of them about getting into position on game.
because there is simply no way that most of those guys have time to scout and get used to the way deer move on a particular piece of property.

Hitting paper has nothing to do with being in the right place at the right time and bringing home the venison.

Do they have an "edge" in shooting skill?
mabey, but there is more to hunting than hitting something.

If your words are to be believed then all those deer out there that have fallen to Foster slugs launched from 12ga smoothbore shotguns didn't really die...

MOA accuracy at 100yards (or greater) is utterly irrelevant to hunters who kill their deer at 30yards OR LESS.


Hell, I've killed a deer with a load of buckshot in a shotgun with an a Improved-modified choke that would make 2foot circles of holes at 30yards, yet the only deer I killed with that combination was close enough that the buckshot hits were all confined to a 10" circle.

And all Twelve pellets were in the deer.

Range? MABEY twelve yards.

I've shot a doe (more reflex than intent though I did have a doe tag) at a range of less than 20yards as well...

What is the MOA there Scooter?

quote:

Sometimes skilled target shooters do translate to superb field marksmen, Carlos Hathcock springs to mind, but I think he is the exception that proves the rule rahter than an example that target marksmen make good hunters.

Carlos Harhcock was a skilled hunter (hair shooter) before he became a skilled paper shooter. In fact it was Carlos's great hunting skills that he aquired as a youth growing up in Arkansas that aided in his ability as a Marine corp. Sniper of which if not the best ever, certainly one of the very best....

PUMA454
You really got me thinking. I shoot very well (sub MOA) with some of my other rifles. I wonder if using something like a Lead Sled would help me know if the problem is me. I didn't think it was, but maybe its me and not my '06. However, I believe I can come up with some loads that are better than what I've come up with so far. I've shot some factory loads that shot better than my reloads. This is the only rifle I'm having this problem with.

As to the other contributors, please know that I'm not advocating slip-shod marksmanship or sloppy reloading. I believe the sport and the game deserve our close attention.

That said, I don't believe everyone has to shoot (I'm not talking about whether the rifle is capable of shooting) sub MOA in order to successfully and humanely deer hunt. My brother-in-law has an old British 303 and I know he doesn't shoot sub-MOA, but he does harvest deer effectively with it. He knows its, and his, limits and respects them.

I can see there is a lot of disagreement on this subject. I like the heated discussion. It has certainly made me think. Thanks!

quote:

That said, I don't believe everyone has to shoot (I'm not talking about whether the rifle is capable of shooting) sub MOA in order to successfully and humanely deer hunt. My brother-in-law has an old British 303 and I know he doesn't shoot sub-MOA, but he does harvest deer effectively with it. He knows its, and his, limits and respects them.

That is the point that brainiac george fails to comprehend...

Same subject, different web site (and no george)


http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb...t/all/gonew/1#UNREAD

Red, I think that acceptable rifle accuracy is that which is able to hit the animal where you want it to be hit, when you want it to be hit. It takes a combination of things. It takes a rifle that you are comfortable with, first and foremost. If it shoots MOA and you hit where you want to with it, great, it is acceptable. If it shoots 2 MOA and you hit what you want, when you want, great, it is acceptable.

I also want a rifle that is as accurate as possible to make me comfortable. It is not a magic number with me. I have some .5 MOA and some 2MOA and they all suite me well, IF I can hit with them.

The reason that I harp so much on the comfort level is that I currently have one rifle that I know is very accurate because I have targets from the folks that put it together for me as well as from others that I have let shoot it. I can't seem to shoot it worth a shit. I know it is me and I am just not comfortable with it. I missed two deer with it the same year. So I amuse myself with trying to find better loads and thoughts of what other caliber I could make it into or if I should sell it. Sometimes, it's just you.

As for the pissing contest, I really don't have a dog in the fight other than to say, the best way not to hear what someone is saying that you disagree with is the ignore feature. If you don't respond, they can't argue. I don't care much for certificates as they only state ones ability to play that particular game. Some of it is useful, some not. I played various shooting "games" for a while, so I understand. I know that some of the best knock-out artists never stepped into any ring, they just got off their barstool, cleaned someone's clock and went back to what they enjoyed. They learned it as a kid and were still good at it, just like some hunters I know.

quote:

Red, I think that acceptable rifle accuracy is that which is able to hit the animal where you want it to be hit, when you want it to be hit. It takes a combination of things. It takes a rifle that you are comfortable with, first and foremost. If it shoots MOA and you hit where you want to with it, great, it is acceptable. If it shoots 2 MOA and you hit what you want, when you want, great, it is acceptable.

Exactly....

Larry makes a very good point. The ignore list sure does clean up a thread.

Larry, I've never argued that. Somepeople just aren't able to comprehend English. Read what I stated about the gun being sub MOA. Most imbeciles (one of the present company excluded) can understand that if your rifle shoots sub MOA FROM A BENCH REST DURING SIGHTING IN, it eliminates any doubt you may have when a shot goes astray. When I learned to shoot, the guy who taught me made me call every shot. I quickly learned to take a mental snapshot of my crosshairs each time the sear was tripped. If the bullet was not where that mental picture told me, the first impulse every hunter has is, "my gun must be off". Seldom is it, maybe I choked on the shot. So I spend an inordinate amount of time on that bench with that paper. When the gun is on and I don't put an animal down, my first reaction now is "Let me see what's happening on paper". If you shoot a 3 or 4 MOA, that's only 4 inches at 100 yards. But out past that, it's a multiplier and with an 18 -24 inch kill zone on most animals, that can well mean the difference between a kill and a long tracking job. Nothing makes you a better shot than having to follow wounded game a couple miles. This practice also tells me my own personal limitations. If I can't shoot well at 200 yards off a bench, then I shouldn't be taking 200 yard shots in the field. And anyone who'd argue that reasoning needs to stay with the game farm animals that get herded past you at less than 100 yards.