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| One of Us |
Holy Christ One Hole! You must sit on the crapper for hours thinking this stuff up. Where exactly is this world of halucinations and self worship that you dwell in? WOW! 27 posts...I be somebody!!! "Isn't it pretty to think so." | |||
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Hello Stillbeeman, Very clever response and definitely shows you put a lot of study into it as well. However, you still need to work on your somewhat limited vocabulary. Do your friends and family know you talk that way or is just an internet thing with you. It does not matter one whit to me and sure others whether you or I want to pursue improving our shooting skills or not, but to answer your question as to what an MU is, try marksman unclassified. Means that you have not shot enough or scored high enough to qualify for anything but the lowest of ratings. Perhaps you would understand entry level, neophyte, novice, newby, etc. Do you get it now or should I slow the pace down a bit. In closing, I would urge you to attend a local High Power Match in your area and do try your hand at it and see how you fare. Again, you might, I repeat might, learn a thing or two about shooting even though I am sure you have vast experience. Be sure and report back your scores at 200, 300 and 600 yards for you may well jump right up there to High Master scores the first match out of the box. Oh, and by the way, if I did not tell you earlier, no bench, no sticks, no artificial supports. Rifle sling only, not allowed in off hand at 200 yards, only in sitting, prone rapid fire, and slow fire prone at 600 yards. Think you can cut it?? | |||
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dsiteman, I'm not understanding why in your mind a title is required as proof of what kind of a rifle shot you are, or are not? It pretty much boils down to, either you can hit something or you can't. Does this "title" cause game animals to surrender when you announce it? A friend and I shoot off hand at two and three hundred yards on a regular basis. I don't see that a title or certificate will make either of us a better shot. "Isn't it pretty to think so." | |||
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You know, as a grunt in the Marine Corps, I got quite extensive marksmanship training and LOTS of practice. I never got a certificate unless you count my honorable discharge as a certificate, but this doesn't make me less of a marksman and more importantly, hunter than a competetive paper shooter. But that is just my humble opinion. Why get hung up on certification? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Hello Whitworth, I congratulate you on your service and shooting in the Corps and have shot many times at Quantico. One thing that I am sure we can agree on is that the training, practice, etc. certainly did nothing but make you a better rifleman. There is no certificate, but a NRA classification given upon displaying over a given number of rounds, attaining a percentage score. If you shoot good enough in any of the Services you would be given the opportunity to compete and all shooters are classified via the NRA system of classification be they military or civilian. It is the governing body for accomplishments in the shooting sports. Never said that anyone had to do such shooting to hunt deer or any other game, but can assure you one who has done so and obtained higher classifications are excellent shooters not only in different postions but at varying ranges and all conditions. Furthermore they are well acquainted with the use of the sling and generally not fond of any sort of sticks, artificial rests. Most are very good at range estimating, reading/doping the wind, very aware of the amount of adjustments to give whether short or long range, light or strong wind, dull days, bright days, etc. All those things hunters like to have going for them. To say that such training and experience is not to ones advantage is incorrect. | |||
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Whitworth, you just haven't looked in the right place yet. The Marines put it on your DD 214, so there is a certificate there if you shot well enough. I always laughed at the "expert" rating the Air Farce gave me. All you had to do in the Air Force was hit the silhouette 40 out of 50 times. Some "expert" that is. RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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We had no choice but to shoot well, George. Not qualifying wasn't an option! My vision was a lot better back in those days, though.......  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Of course not you are a Marine...  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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dsiteman, Whitworth kinda beat me to the punch but I qualified as Expert in the Marines but that was a long, long time ago I was young and innocent though and thought I was fighting for the right to keep and bear arms and the right to say an occasional "fuck" when some sophist twit tried to impose his particular brand of elitist snobbery on me. One of the things I stress when I am sharing my MU opinions with folks is the need to abandon the controlled positions and practice, practice, practice from positions one might encounter in the real world of hunting. A .5 rifle ain't worth a shit (uh oh, there's another one of those words that show how limited my vocabulary is. I just don't know what the fuck I'm gonna do.) if you can't shoot it from real world field positions. | |||
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When it counts? What are you suggesting, Alf? When it counts in combat or when hunting? Actually Alf, we were/are the only service (US) that qualifies up to 500 meters. And quite contrary to what you suggest, their battle record is long and proud. Don't mess with my Marine Corps! We are talking US Marines, not some third world (or is "Developing Country" the pc term?) military outfit. Alf, I consider myself a hunter first and a paper puncher second. The only time I spend on the bench is for load development and/or to sight in, otherwise I shoot field positions for practice and I hunt fairly frequently. So, I am on the other side of this need for certification arguement, and believe that field time is more pertinent. But, I also believe in practice, practice, practice........"Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Alf, do you know what a field of fire is? | |||
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Exactly! Regimented static shooting positions might be great in competition or if your're trying to get a certificate. What happens in the real world? "Oh, I can't assume the correct prescribed position, so I won't shoot!?" SEAR training taught "Adapt and Improvise". In other words, do whatever it takes to survive. I was taught at a very early age that hunting could be the difference between eating and starving. I didn't learn to shoot and hunt to have somebody give me an atta boy. My Uncle once killed a buck on my grandad's ranch, that was hoplessly entangled in a barbedwire fence, with a 14" Crescent wrench. I'm sure he wouldn't have done it if he had known that he needed to be rated, certified, patted on the head, tucked, rolled and put away. And I sure as hell didn't risk my life for two years so that I could come home and have the naughty word police dictate morality. "Isn't it pretty to think so." | |||
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Damn, I hate coming back to this rodeo, but I still think the point is completely missed. I actually agree with everything that's being said right now, HOWEVER, you all speak of "sighting in". Now without passing any judgements or pissing off the jarheads, will you guys just tell me when your "sighting in" is finished? Is it when you're clustering them in the 10 ring or is it when they get on paper? I can't agree more with the "real world" scenario where you don't have a Ransom rig and a bench. Though I'll never buy into the "Ghetto Grip" for pistols, I understand "improvising". RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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George, we qualified every year on the range, and then the shooting we did was of the quick reaction drill variety and field exercises. So, there was formal range time and then "field work" for lack of a better term. The Marine Corps takes marksmanship very seriously. You're not pissing anyone off. We aren't very thin-skinned! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I too was hoping not to get dragged back into the fray.......  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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George, Wasn't a Marine. I was Navy with an Navy Expert Rifleman Medal. Not many of those were given out. I was given the option of qualifying for, and shooting on, the Navy Match Rifle Team or go to the fleet and Vietnam. I went through training and qualifications at Camp Pendleton right along with the Green machine. Then after SEAR training at Whidby Island, WA detailed to River Boat duty in the Delta. I was a boat engineer on a "Tango" (transport) boat and worked with SEALS and Force Recon Marines. "Isn't it pretty to think so." | |||
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A lot of our Navy corpsmen were as much Marine as we were! Thanks for your service DB! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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When I graduated boot camp, one out of three men in the company was sent to Corps School. I got skipped by one guy. All land based Navy personnel in Vietnam were required to go through a 4 week qualification at Camp Pendleton or Parris Island with the Marine Corps. "Isn't it pretty to think so." | |||
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Today, with the great barrels by Lothar Walther and others, glass bedding, etc. its not difficult to come up with a 3 shot one inch gun....Most factory rifles when glass bedded will shot close to one inch for 3 shots. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I qualified as both expert pistol and expert rifle in the Navy. All of our shooting was conducted by Marine Cadre on a Marine course of fire. In fact because I did qual as expert with the M14 I got the honor of having to carry a full auto version.. Why a skinny 6' kid got a full auto M14 and the extra ammo I'll never know. It was fun to be both young and gung ho. To be honest I could not get more than 3 or 4 rounds on target in full auto before the rifle walked up. Single shot was a different story. The Navy kept the older weapons much later than anyone else, I had a 1911 45 until 1991. I'll stand with my 4" groups with that old Mauser at 75 yards or less it brought food to the table. It was not that I could or did not know how to shoot better, it was all that that rifle with its poor barrel and trigger could do. | |||
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Five shots in a paper plate at 100yds, off hand! | |||
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For Sure... I was assigned to the landing party on my first ship in 1969, a 2250 class "Tin Can". My issue weapon was a 1918 Navy B.A.R. that was in as new condition. My issue weapon when I arrive on station with my River Boat squadron was an older Marine hand me down M-16 which I later "traded/requisitioned" for an M-14 from an ARVN unit. "Isn't it pretty to think so." | |||
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I had to read this thread... ...because I couldn't understand why it took 6 pages and 200 plus posts to say... While not ideal 1 1/2 MOA is plenty accurate because it equals only an 2 1/4 inches of dispersion out to 300 yds Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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LOL, Mike! It did take a few turns in a few different directions! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I shot expert with every weapon in the army and won the company trophy with one of the highest scores ever shot. That was the 500 yd KD range. I could balance a nickel on the end of my barrel with a slung M1 and break the trigger without the nickel falling off. My daughter shot one of the highest woman's scores ever in the Marines, she outshot all of the men. What does it take for hunting? THE BEST ACCURACY YOU CAN GET, nothing less. Why does ANYONE say it is good enough? Some of you sound like a smoothbore is good enough at 400 yd's. As your accuracy diminishes, so does your range. Is that hard to understand? I DEMAND 1" or WAY less from a revolver at 50 yd's even if I am shooting at deer at 15 yd's. Does anyone think a rifle should shoot worse and still be OK for hunting? Why is shooting at animals less important then shooting paper? I am not even getting into the discussion of bullet effect here. Ask Whitworth what accuracy accomplishes! Both of us has no confidence in a gun that is not accurate and will NOT shoot at game with that gun. Ethics? YES, is that not what hunting is about? | |||
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I was going to reply to the latest, but I think it is time for this one to die off.. I will say that I have never owned a revolver that was capabale of shooting inside 1" at 50 yards. Not at least with all chambers. This is mounted in a Ransom rest. All of the many Colts, S&W's I have owned all had at least one chamber that would give a flyer. Autos yes my High Standard military model will do it all day long if the wind is not to high. Maybe the newer revolvers will do it but not the 20 or so older ones I have owned. At 25 yards a couple of them could stay with in 1" A Colt Officers model Match, and a S&W L Frame 357. | |||
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Good idea since it's six pages of bullshit and bragging with a few common sense answers thrown in and has become a snooze fest.  | |||
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And too, in West Virginia "the best accuracy you can get" is a very scientific measurment. It falls midway between kinda-sorta and pert-nigh. | |||
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I beg to differ. That would be 5 pages of bullshit and 1 page of unadulterated bullshit. "Isn't it pretty to think so." | |||
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one of us |
Loaded question. For me, "acceptable" for my .308 is around 1 MOA (actually, I want a lot more but that is pretty much what the rifle is capable of). For my .454? Maybe 3" at 50 yards on a good day. I just bought a muzzleloader, and don't really know what to expect. Most I talk with say "2-3 inches at a hundred yards". You need to be accurate enough to give a quick and humane kill. Beyond that really doesn't matter in the field. | |||
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I'm an avid handgun hunter and a pretty good shot (if I do say so myself  ). I am able to shoot 1-inch groups at 50 yards off of sandbags with little trouble, but bfrshooter, 28 years my senior, can shoot circles around me with a handgun. This photo shows a number of targets shot with his .475 Linebaugh BFR at 50 yards, the target in the center is at 200 yards, and the paint can was shot with two shots (one ragged hole) at 100 yards. So, West Virginia, Mississippi, New York, California, doesn't play much of a role in shooting ability -- I don't think.........  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Oh, I happen to be a Mountaineer myself (transplant) and happen to be a fair shot but I just can't resist taking a tug at Superman's cape when they start sermanizing at me about me meeting their standards. I've spent too long developing my low-life way of doing things to change now. 'Sides, if it wasn't for the great unwashed, like me, who would bfs and dsiteman have to feel superior to? I feel I am providing a needed service to the shooting world.  | |||
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Hey, I resemble that remark! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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