I am not and was not disparaging semi autos. My point is that they tend to be less accurate than a bolt as a breed. As an individual gun, especially with well worked up loads they can be accurate.

I have two 760s which are basically a manual action 742. A 243 and a 30-06. One shoots under an inch with a lot of ammo and little work. The other can easily shoot 4" groups at 25 yards. Until that crappy 243 finds a load it likes it will shoot Blue Dot loads and Varmint Grenades at coyotes. So far, that's the only thing it does shoot well.

yup, those semi's are really accurate. That's why you see so many of them at the factory matches. Next thing you know, they'll be slickin' them up for the stool shooters.

I didn't know we were talking about three shot groups. IMO it'd be hard to find a modern bolt box gun with decent ammo that wouldn't give you 3 shots in 1" if the shooter was up to it.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
jwp, I can see that you're a legend in your own mind, but I'm wondering if you're actually old enough to vote yet. A three shot group with less than a minute angle would look the same regardless of who fired it. I COULD show you a shotgun slug group of less than a minute angle if I'd bothered to keep it. I just ASSUMED that any responsible shooter would be able to do the same if he'd matched the rounds to his firearm properly and used good glass. Sorry to hear you aren't able to perform the same way.

Now, just a question here for the adult contributors. I suppose I've been fortunate, but I've always heard that the semi's are not on the same par with the bolts. To some degree, I can buy that because of the loose tolerances at the breech to handle the feed. HOWEVER, is it that far off for some of you? Jim Carmichael in one of his shooting books says that the 'average' shooter won't notice that much difference in a hunting situation. I own BAR's in .243 and .300 Win Mag. The .300 is a 1 MOA gun when rested properly (I tend to shoot it at 3 MOA cause I just like blowing rounds that make big BOOMS quickly). But the .243 is a subminute of angle gun. I put 2 shots in a penny and the third one touching the rim. Did I just get lucky with these two guns?

You dolt I know what they look like, but I would like to see if you can shoot or just run your mouth..

And I know you did the shooting and the distance was 300 yards because.............??? OH YES! THE PICTURE TELLS ME SO. I'm not doubting you did the shooting or the grouping, but the picture is no validation. If I were simply going to prove a point, I could have set at the 7 yard line, fired the group and then written across the target "700 yards,.22WRF, 20 gr. hollowpoints". I'm no legend in my own mind and I am old enough to vote. You???

Humm, well back to the man's question. How accurate does the rifle have to be?

Here's a little NO BS test. Take your rifle and shoot it from a bench rest at say 100 or 200 yds.Record the group size for 3 or 5 shots, whatever you like.

Now, shoot it at the same distance sitting, kneeling with sticks or whatever to approximate field conditions. Compare it to the first group. With rare exception, get ready for a nasty little surprise.

Who was it that said there are plenty of MOA rifles, just not many MOA shooters...

A MOA rifle is nice because it helps eliminate "mechanical error" If you miss, well YOU missed, not the equipment. Maybe that's a bit rough on the ego.

Bluntly, if the rifle and the shooter can hit a 6 inch dia. circle from a give distance, EVERY time, from ANY position and under ANY conditions. Then that rifle/shooter combination will be very successful give those parameters.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
And I know you did the shooting and the distance was 300 yards because.............??? OH YES! THE PICTURE TELLS ME SO. I'm not doubting you did the shooting or the grouping, but the picture is no validation. If I were simply going to prove a point, I could have set at the 7 yard line, fired the group and then written across the target "700 yards,.22WRF, 20 gr. hollowpoints". I'm no legend in my own mind and I am old enough to vote. You???

That is the point you are clueless.....
You have NO PICTURES of anything no game, no groups. Just running off at the mouth...

jwp, see, that's the difference between juveniles and adults. I don't need to prove anything to you or to anyone else about my own prowess. The discussion was on physics and facts, not libido and machismo. Hunter Montana got it. Shame you missed out. So what do you want me to say? "Yours is bigger than mine"??? OK, yours is bigger than mine. Do I get to tell you where you can put it?

George, Your BS that anything other than MOA rifle is unsuitable for hunting just shows how clueless you really are. You run off at the mouth alot and back it up with more runnig off at the mouth. By allmeans don't let us stop your crap...

I am happy with 1 MOA. I have a couple of M70 .300's that shot that way right out of the box with Federal factory ammo.

My .375's do it with factory ammo.

I just got my .280 back from Hill Country Rifles and now it shoots .75 MOA.

I want the most accurate I can afford.

jwp, please stay out of the woods where I hunt. There's enough idiots out there that don't know where their gun is shooting without adding you to the mix. And since it's obvious I'm not on your Christmas card list, how about you just stop acting childish because you don't agree with my point of view and move on to some other topic.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
jwp, please stay out of the woods where I hunt. There's enough idiots out there that don't know where their gun is shooting without adding you to the mix. And since it's obvious I'm not on your Christmas card list, how about you just stop acting childish because you don't agree with my point of view and move on to some other topic.

You are a certifiable memeber of the Paper Hat Brigade....... I don't hunt with the Brigade members...

George, I think he likes you, he keeps following you from thread to thread, I think they call that stalking...lol

Well, I'm going to throw in here.

To hell with groups. I judge my rifle "hunting ready" based on the first shot from a cold dry barrel. That's the one that's going to matter and determine whether you break out your skinning knife or you tracking glasses. (tracking glasses? oh, I thought everybody had a pair)

The paper plate challenge is the way to go. Tack three paper plates up at 100 yrds. Take a shot at each plate - standing offhand, sitting, and prone. You have 3 seconds to take each shot. Minuet of paper plate is pretty good for an old guy with tracking glasses.

Alan

tracking glasses....lol

I guess us older guys need them.....

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do have a comment for Mr. Roof: I've read many of your posts, and you seem to possess a great deal of knowledge, and have much to offer. That said, many times, it seems to me, that you come across in your posts here as a cranky, sanctimonious, self-righteous, know-it-all dickhead, and it's maybe not so much what you have to say, but how you say it. I respectfully suggest that a slight modification in your delivery and tone will be received much better by many folks here. And yeah, I know my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it--zilch.

Cheers,

KG

KG, your opinion is a very good one and I respect it for what it is. I don't TRY to be that way, it just seems to happen. I try to avoid blowing my OWN horn on issues, but get a bit testy when science and physics is argued. I'm not anal about reloading and not much more on ballistics, but I know the principles behind them. I figure 99% or successful hunting is dumb luck, but the more often you're out there, the luckier you seem to get. I don't throw money at hunts that much anymore as they tend to come with some expectation of success. Being able to crap and take a leak bear more importance with the most being centered around doing them at a time I WANT to do them. JWP has just decided he's a toy poodle nipping at my heels because I exposed him for what HE is. That's OK too. Now he's mad because he can't insult me into doing what he wants me to do and that makes it even sweeter. You can all do me a big favor, however. Go to Amazon.com and click on books. Type in my name and send them some money so I can pay a few more of my bills. LOL

You had me right up until the last couple of sentences, George, but hey, you know what they say about opinions...

Cheers, and carry on.

KG

Edited to add: what the hell is a 'cat-head biscuit'? I know, I know: buy the book, right? Excellent reviews, anyway. Congrats. Will you sign it if I send it on?

george you need to buy a vowell........ The paper Hat Brigade is alive and well, with it's charter member leading the way to Stupidville. Ignorant is one that has not had the oportunity to learn, but stupid is the inability to learn...

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
I don't need to prove anything to you or to anyone else about my own prowess.

So why do you keep pontificating on these forums?

As Kamo pointed out George, you seem to be knowledgeable but given your attitude I'm certainly not inclined to buy your books and thereby pay for your attitude.

I agree with Scott!

I agree with Scott and Pegleg.........

Scott, actually "prowess" has nothing to do with knowlege. I don't have to know how to play the piano to tell you when the pianist screws up. And actually, it's turned into a macabre enjoyment of wiring up jwp. If immitation is the highest form of flattery, then I'm flattered that he followed my posts all the way over to the Taxidermy.Net. You see, I made a statement very similar to his about stupidity over there last week. Guess I'm been "Obama'ed" now. But then again, maybe great minds think alike. LMAO They say that the qualities you most dislike in someone else are the same qualities that you, yourself, possess.

What an egotistical pompus ASS.......I have never ever visited the site that you listed..........

When I started this thread I was asking a genuine question because I own some guns that won't shoot MOA and my guess is that the vast majority of shooters do as well. I do not have the luxury of buying only high dollar guns (not that all more expensive rifles are inherently more accurate). I was not advocating sloppy shooting and reloading. I believe in practice. I also feel I am at least a decent reloader and getting better, but I have some guns that I haven't been able to work up loads for that will produce 1" groups at 100 yds. They are older, "high mile" guns. I also have some newer guns that won't shoot MOA. I wanted to know what was accurate enough for safe, ethical deer hunting. I was disappointed at the tone of some of the responses--they seemed out of harmony with the good will and comradery that is usually demonstrated in the Accurate Reloading forums.

Red, I've heard some say that every gun can be a MOA firearm with the right load. I think that's an easy way out as I'm sure there are some that are not and might never be. You say that you can't afford the "expensive" guns that are noted for it. Have you tried gun shops that sell firearms on consignment or sell used guns. So absolutely superb firearms are "found" this way. I'd also ask you about the glass you have atop them. If I'd saved all the money I'd wasted on Bushnells, Tascos, Widefields, and Swifts over the years, all my guns would be matched with Leitz or IOR Valdada's. There's much to be said about owning ONE good gun topped with ONE good scope. They may be expensive, but having one won't cost you like not owning one does.

Aww come on Red don't get mad at us, we mostly all get along and those that don't I think in most cases are just pulling each others leg.

To prove our good will JWP and I are going to fly out to Georges house and group hug. Photos will be posted.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Aww come on Red don't get mad at us, we mostly all get along and those that don't I think in most cases are just pulling each others leg.

To prove our good will JWP and I are going to fly out to Georges house and group hug. Photos will be posted.

Uh, oh. The transition from AR to GAY-R has apparently begun...

quote:

Originally posted by Kamo Gari:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Aww come on Red don't get mad at us, we mostly all get along and those that don't I think in most cases are just pulling each others leg.

To prove our good will JWP and I are going to fly out to Georges house and group hug. Photos will be posted.

Uh, oh. The transition from AR to GAY-R has apparently begun...

LOL!! That's funny Kamo Gari!!

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
What would generally be considered acceptable accuracy for hunting whitetail deer.

Hey Red, I'd say that would be any level of accuracy that gives "you" 100% confidence in making a clean 1-shot Kill.

quote:

I live in SE Oklahoma and would rarely have a shot over 200 yds. Under such conditions what would be acceptable 100 yd groups for my 30-06? 1", 1.5", 2" at 100 yds?

I've not hunted that area of the country so I'm unfamiliar with your terrain and the size of the Deer you would consider Killing.

If it is flat or rolling prairie, your requirements can be a bit different than the situation which mete described:

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
...it's comforting to have an accurate rifle when you have to place a bullet in a small opening in brush or when only a small bit of deer is visible. ...

If you are hunting creeks with dense growth, what mete described would be common. Here is where a very accurate firearm will prevent you from creating firewood instead of venison.

And it depends on the size of the Deer you are hunting. Where I prefer to hunt, the Deer typically run 14"-16" from the withers to the bottom of their chest. Some are a bit bigger, but those are rare exceptions in the Lowcountry.

Call it 14"(for the worst case) and cut off 2" from the top and bottom which gets the Kill Zone to 10". And I like to take half of that, 5", as the actual Kill Zone. That way any wobble, cold chill, slight mis-alignment, whatever, will still get the Bullet into the Kill Zone. Then I just need to see how far out I can maintain a 5" group.

But when you are shooting in a dense grown-up area, similar to what you find along a creek, more accuracy is a real advantage. It allows you to thread a Bullet in-between limbs, briers and weeds, through small openings, that would cause you to hesitate with a less accurate rifle.

quote:

I'm not a mathematics major, but is it in the ball park to say that a 1.5" group at 100 yds would be a 3" group at 200 yds? Is there a rule of thumb for such calculations?

That is a typical assumption that quite often proves to be true - but it is not always true. The only way to really know what your firearm will do at 200yds is to shoot it at 200yds. There are numerous reasons your rifle "might" begin firing a 10" pattern rather than the 3" you are expecting. Or it might actually shoot a tighter group at 200yds than at 100yds.

There are no shortcuts to verifying your Load at the distance you anticipate taking shots. You simply have to shoot it and see what it does.

quote:

Yes, I would like for my gun to shoot .5" groups at 100 yds, but it won't.

Some of mine will and some won't. It can be as simple as the Load or a combination of things that add up to prevent the good groups.

Some rifles just do not like a specific Bullet, or a specific weight of Bullet. No way to explain it, but that is just the way it is. Or maybe I drank too much tea, or my mind is on other issues, etc.
-----

People can tell you what works for them, but only you can decide what will work for you. You have to decide how large the Kill Zone is on your Deer and you have to determine what will be between you and the Deer.

And it does not take a $1-$3 Bullet to Kill a Deer in your 30-06. Any inexpensive 150gr, 165gr or 180gr Bullet designed for Hunting from Hornady, Nosler, Sierra, Speer, Remington or Winchester will Kill any Deer you (or I) will ever see.
-----

So, what size are your Deer and what kind of terrain are you hunting?

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
When I started this thread I was asking a genuine question because I own some guns that won't shoot MOA and my guess is that the vast majority of shooters do as well. I do not have the luxury of buying only high dollar guns (not that all more expensive rifles are inherently more accurate). I was not advocating sloppy shooting and reloading. I believe in practice. I also feel I am at least a decent reloader and getting better, but I have some guns that I haven't been able to work up loads for that will produce 1" groups at 100 yds. They are older, "high mile" guns. I also have some newer guns that won't shoot MOA. I wanted to know what was accurate enough for safe, ethical deer hunting. I was disappointed at the tone of some of the responses--they seemed out of harmony with the good will and comradery that is usually demonstrated in the Accurate Reloading forums.

You are quite correct many rifles do not shoot 1 MOA groups at 100 yards yet are still very capable in the game fields in the hands of a good hunter (shooter). The that shot the group in the picture I posted earlier routinely shoots in the mid .3 MOA range and occasionaly better, ( it is a custom built rifle) with that being said I have taken A LOT of game withboth rifles and handguns that do not shoot MOA at 100 yards. Hot Core gave some good advice as have others. Don't let anyone BS you into believing that a rifle that only shoots 2 MOA at 100 yards won't reliably take game and do so very consistently if you shoot it well.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by Kamo Gari:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Aww come on Red don't get mad at us, we mostly all get along and those that don't I think in most cases are just pulling each others leg.

To prove our good will JWP and I are going to fly out to Georges house and group hug. Photos will be posted.

Uh, oh. The transition from AR to GAY-R has apparently begun...

LOL!! That's funny Kamo Gari!!

Now that's funny I don't care who you are...

All of a sudden I'm feeling a little self conscious and insecure.

Don't worry--I'm tough I can handle anything that comes my way. I also have a meter connected to my computer that quickly identifies it I love the AR forums and have appreciated this thread.
The diversity of thought makes the world go round. If everyone thought the same way we'd all be using the same caliber with the same load. What would we talk about then. Thanks for the input. It will all be carefully considered. Some will be noted and others will get the

Wasn't a bad thread until "Ol' One Hole George" showed up and started impressing me.

Been shooting, hunting, and building custom rifles for 40+ years. Never seen a B.A.R. yet that will shoot sub 1" groups. Course I ain't been to Delaware either. And don't plan on going.

DB, I didn't know you worked for Browning and tested all their rifles. I'm impressed! Did you send the money back to the airlines as well?

Never worked for Browning. Wouldn't own a Browning.

Bite your tongue, D B Cooper. Just buy his book. He'll tell you what a real legend is.

As I said, you'll be seeing them auttermatics at the stool shooter matches before long.

It's been a long time since I've seen a bunch with such fragile egos that they immediately bristle when someone questions their "expertise". Taxidermists were like that in the 50's and 60's, but I figured maybe that kind of people had all died. I was wrong, they just became reloaders. Here's DB Cooper (with 12 whole posts here - hmmm, imaginary name, imaginary expert) talking trash about Brownings admitting he's never owned one and someone else claiming to know what my book says while obviously never having read it. Is this site made up of just imaginary friends or is it open to real people?

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
It's been a long time since I've seen a bunch with such fragile egos that they immediately bristle when someone questions their "expertise". Taxidermists were like that in the 50's and 60's, but I figured maybe that kind of people had all died. I was wrong, they just became reloaders. Here's DB Cooper (with 12 whole posts here - hmmm, imaginary name, imaginary expert) talking trash about Brownings admitting he's never owned one and someone else claiming to know what my book says while obviously never having read it. Is this site made up of just imaginary friends or is it open to real people?

This site is made up of people that can spot you for what you are "Imaginary Intelegence"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by george roof:
It's been a long time since I've seen a bunch with such fragile egos that they immediately bristle when someone questions their "expertise". Taxidermists were like that in the 50's and 60's, but I figured maybe that kind of people had all died. I was wrong, they just became reloaders. Here's DB Cooper (with 12 whole posts here - hmmm, imaginary name, imaginary expert) talking trash about Brownings admitting he's never owned one and someone else claiming to know what my book says while obviously never having read it. Is this site made up of just imaginary friends or is it open to real people?[/QUOTE]


DB, doesn't need a lot of post to spot you for your "Imaginary Intelegence"