If you're talking whitetail deer guides, maybe they are split. Southern whitetail deer are no test -- you can blow them away with just about anything.

If you're talking elk guides, Alaskan guides, Canadian mixed-bag guides, or African PHs, you couldn't be more mistaken. Almost to a man, these guys demand the use of good bullets that'll stay together.

As far as I'm concerned, any self-proclaimed elk guide, for example, who is casual about bullet construction is too green to hunt with, and he won't be getting any business out of me.

What I can't figure out is, what's the WORST thing that's going to happen to you if you use a good, dependable bullet, such as a Nosler Partition, versus some tin-foil job?

Usually, the answer is "accuracy", but you can get 1" or 1/2" groups (sometimes even less) out of Partitions if your rifle is good, so that iconic answer is really and truly lame. You can also get the same ballistic profile as a BT out of Nosler's new Accu Bond, as well as superb accuracy and vastly superior structural integrity, so again, why use BTs?

"Cost" is the other lame excuse, never mind the fact that bullet cost is a tiny, tiny, tiny portion of the cost of the overall hunt, even do-it-yourself hunts. I've seen guys complain about bullet cost, but man, they've got plenty of money available for booze, cigarettes, chew, junk food, etc. Go figure............

This season, I've loaded up a batch of 180 Nosler Partitions in 300 Win. Mag., and I'll use that same batch of ammo for elk in New Mexico and Oregon, plainsgame in Tanzania, and whitetails and hogs in Texas. And based on rather extensive prior experience, it'll work -- without fuss -- on elk as well as eland, and on whitetails as well as hogs, or even a lion if some mix-up should arise at the wrong moment. No complication; no need to screw around experimenting -- it'll just plain work on the whole shebang.

But if you put BTs to the same set of uses, I'll flat guarantee you that you'll have some bitter episodes ahead of you..........

And for the sake of WHAT?????????????

AD

Allen,

No matter how well you write about the NP being the best all around bullet people are going to go on their own experience. I've done no little amount of preaching about the merits of the NP myself but when you talk to a guy that has shot his last 7 of his 42 career elk with a 7STW and 150 NBT(my neighbor)with no problem your argument sort of falls on deaf ears. From the elk hunters point of view a change of bullet would be way stupid.

Having said the above I would pick the NP or any premium bullet over a NBT or Sierra anytime for any game other than varmints.

I've got a pretty serious antelope and a very spendie mule deer hunt planned this year as well as an elk hunt. There is no way I would trust my hunts to less than a premium bullet. I want to be sure that whatever angle shot is presented that I can take that shot and not have to worry about penetration to the vitals.

I'll be shooting NP's and for the first time the TSX.

Regards,

Mark

Mark, I'd like to hear about your pending mule deer hunt!

AD

Mark, you pretty much nailedit, it's just a matter of time until the big one gets away & the "tin foil" bullet guys quietly switch to something else. I'm curious how many NBT shooters are stand hunters?

Reloader,
Being a pro guide means your a hunter and thats about all and a lot of pro guides don't even deserve that title...

Most good guides are good hunters, but few know a lot about firearms other than most can shoot them well enough...I have delt with guides all my life and some are gun nuts but most have limited knowledge or even care much about firearms and many will give you poor advise, the same thing applies to African PHs, few are true gun nuts...Heck look at some of their rifles.

Some are gun nuts, good hunters, and cover all the bases, but they are the minority I assure you.

Just my two cents based on my experience in the hunting business...

Reloader, I realize you qualified the statement and I'm not looking for a hoo-haa over the issue. Yes, if a bullet hits perpendicular w/o a bone strike it will follow a fairly straight path if it doesn't tumble. Boat tail designs often do this however and it further skews the probability of less than true course in the terminal phase. Given those two possibilities though, I'd say a straight path is unlikely at least 50% of the time for a shot thru the rib cage, more so for anything else. Gimme a dollar for each post on the BT discussion where someone qualifies their usage by saying, "If you slip it between the ribs...", and We can both get plastered at the finest bar in town. I have serious doubts that any among us can do that more than once in a row...on purpose.

My objections to the use of thinly constructed bullets for big game of any sort are founded on two reasons only. Penetration is unreliable and they destroy a lot of meat. This I've experienced personally. I am not a premium bullet whore however, at least not until muzzle velocities wander up to the 3000 fps mark anyway. I say "muzzle" because it is a handy reference for the type of hunting I do wherein there is often little difference between muzzle and impact velocities. In other circumstances I'm quite content to use garden variety bullets.

All of that said however I note that a certain style of bullets has merit for BG hunting, that being the SSP intended for hand cannons or pocket rifles as you desire. The impact velocities are low for the most part, and in this scenario the lightly constructed bullet may have merit. Likewise the NBT and like types may be desirable for LONG range shooting. They do expand at low impact velocities after all, and that can be a good thing with proper application.

To answer the posted question while I'm at it, I like Hornady bullets for my mundane 2000-2700 fps impact velocities. I have also had success with Sierra, Speer, Corelokts, and cast. I load for varmints with VMAX and NBTs for the most part, but use some conventional varmint bullets as well. I also use Swift bullets, Nosler Partitions, and may even try the Barnes TSX one of these days. What I don't do is let one aspect of bullet performance such as accuracy, dictate my choice for big game. I've yet to lose a head of big game, and have no intention of breaking that string.

Two holes rule IMO, and it helps if they're in the right spot. So, if one is to trade off some accuracy(maybe) for terminal performance, just how far do you go with that theory? Well, I look at it like this. Dispersion is predictable with a given rifle. I don't care what size groups it shoots actually, it may shoot an honest 1/2 MOA out to 300 yards with one bullet, and .9 MOA with another. Or even 3 MOA. IF this dispersion is uniform in nature, a point more significant to me than actual MOA dispersion, then you have the basis for determining the effective range for the load and rifle. My thinking is somewhat structured as the military looks at it, in terms of C.E.P., or circular error probability. In other words, if my 3 MOA rifle barks, it will place a bullet within 1.5" of point of aim(100 yds. of course) in approximate terms. This means further that at 300 yards that if all else is equal it will place them within 4.5" of POA. Chest cavity accurate certainly, be it deer or elk. Not brain shot accurate, or even neck shot accurate, but good enough to bring home the meat if I don't try to impress somebody.

So, my point in taking you thru this tour of the cobweb laden recesses of my mind is this: The accuracy gain that is often found with thinly constructed bullets does not provide a SIGNIFICANT qualitative advantage in regards to bullet placement. It does provide a greater probability of break down in necessary terminal performance however, leaving one with the certainty that the rules of statistics and probability will eventually catch up with you and your quarry. The latter deserves greater consideration in my opinion.

quote:

Bullet failure is 99.9% of the time shooter error not bullet failure. Bullet failure is just a good excuse to blame equipment instead of yourself.

Reloader, I couldn't agree more with your comment above. Everytime I've blown an opportunity on bagging my game - IT WAS MY FAULT! Not the gun or bullet. For me the biggest mistake has been shooting too high at intermediate ranges, that is at ~200 yds. This is not surprising, because at ~200 yds the bullets are at the zenith of their trajectories when sighted-in 3" high at 100 yds. When "buck fever" sets in, it is easy for me to shoot too high by over estimating range.

My life-long experience, which includes that of my family of hunters, is that NBTs, SBKs, Speer BTs, Hornadies, etc. all work very well on North American big game when the animal is hit in a vital area. Miss that vital area and you've got problems. In fact, a well-placed shot trumps caliber and bullet type every time.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
In fact, a well-placed shot trumps caliber and bullet type every time.

. Depends on what your definition of "well placed' means. If it means a 165gr NBT out of a 300 Win mag on the point of the shoulder of a bull elk at 100 yards, I submit that is NOT a well placed shot. Now switch that bullet to a Partition, A Frame, TSX, TBBC, etc., then it is. And that is the crux of this whole argument. Given all things equal regarding shot placement, a Premium bullet reduces the chance of failure over a thin jacketed one. What is it that some of you don't get? jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
In fact, a well-placed shot trumps caliber and bullet type every time.

What's wrong with hitting them right with a better bullet?

Chuck

There isn't a better bullet for North American big game.

None better, huh?

How so? By virtue of WHAT??

AD

I have about 6 boxes of various caliber and weight Ballistic tips with anywhere from 10-20 bullets in each box.

The kids sure think the multi-colored tips are neat and I think they make excellent foulers....but I will never use them on game larger than coyotes.

IV

AIU, Now you are just being goofy. I wouldn't even say that about the Partition & it's true!

You guys don't want your NBTs, then send them to me. I'll take everything in .224, .257, .280, and .308.

They are all "fall apart/auto failure" abortions and it is a wonder that any animal has ever died from any over the counter bullet, which is why Im going exclusivley to hardcast. Kidding.

Actually wherever possible I am in the process of replacing BT's with accubonds, they are everything that the BT's should have been. Wonderfull bullets. The exception is with my Whelen. If 225 gns of BT wont get it done then the failure is mine alone.

Also, my experience has reflected the Nosler claim that the larger caliber BT's are a tougher bullet. The small ones do need to be placed well, but even they have improved since their introduction.

I get a kick out of all the rich folk and there opinions on bullets when gas/expenses and out of State fee's ar no problem or Outfitters expenses,Yet the little locals who rely on the bullet to provide food have no idea what it takes..Shooting in is laying over the hood of the pick-up and hitting a paper plate ar 100 yards with a nice X on it from electrical tape.

Its food boys to some unfortuanates and as broke as a guy may be,he never scrimps on bullets that work.

I have a friend that is an experimenter and gets his Elk every year but told me never use a ballistic tip for Elk.It was ugly as it blew up ruining much meat and a tracking job that the normal Nosler Partition never gave him....

Shoot your paper and read all the articles you want,but the bottom line is atleast in Idaho,Is your guides and helpers need the meat and no what works best in the field not off the bench on Elk.

I have been doin it for close to 50 years in Idaho as a Logger and have seen some real maucho men wanting "Us" to help them out from there larger than they can handle rifles and the wrong choice of bullets.

My opinion...Jayco

Reloader

Actually that statement is not false, and as stated by someone else any guide who only cares about shot placement doesnt live in the real world or is not experienced at all.

As we all know good intentions often go south quickly. You say that it is a persons fault if he is using a "frangible" bullet and then takes a close shot. Well thats called hunting, if you know the range that your target is going to be at you must be a psychic or something. Why would you use a bullet that couldnt be used at close or far distances? or only on a perfect broadside animal, or only on rib shots, or only, sounds like way too many conditions to me.

I have never heard of premiums failing more than frangible bullets but maybe your psychic powers are kicking in again.Hey if you like your venison looking like it was hit by a train then good for you, but a BT or Sierra will never foul any of my barrels.

Sorry, I forgot; I'll take your 6mm NBTs as well.

Ackley

You are either the funniest guy in America or delusional, but hey either way its entertaining. Keep coming up with good one's like it the best bullet for North America i cant stop laughing my ass off! On a more serious note i can list at least 6 to 7 much better bullets than a BT or Sierra but i have a feeling it would be a waste of time.

For Deer and antelope, I think BT's are fine especially if they have a lot of SD, I think that is important with BT's. Ive used 115 gn 257's on Mulies and they work fine. Having said that though I think that Accubonds are a better choice, especially for such a small caliber.

Now you use a 30 cal 180 gn BT on a light skinned animal and unless you are an idiot and aim at its ass or its thickest bone on its body its going to work. Place it in the lungs and that deer or lope is gonna die! Quick! A 130 gn one just might not as core seperation is much eaysier to obtain.

Of corse when you spend $10,000 to shoot a mangie deer though, and it shows you its ass only as if to say neener neener chump, I can understand the cumpulsion to pull the trigger. But having never thrown that kind of jack at pulling the trigger on a critter, I can afford to pass up such a smart assed deer. But what "I" would do is either try to jockey for a better shot or shoot the bugger in the back of the neck.

Generalizing BT's and saying that all of them are too frangible for all hunting is a simple minded view. And reading these forums helps me to understand that folks have different reasons for their choices.

Very few would argue that BT's are very accurate, and sometimes in the field that extra margin of accuracy can be as usefull as an extra 6" of penetration.

fhulla, you seem quite confident. Thus, maybe you can explain to me how our forefathers managed to exterminate most of the big game in North America (including 99% of the buffalo [as you know very large beasts]) with nothing more than LEAD CAST bullets? Now, you guys can't seem to kill a deer without solid, semisolid, partition, or some other star wars bullet. How did those LEAD CAST bullets kill all those big critters? Do you think our forefathers could have killed all those monstrous buffalo with NBTs? Probably not. According to you guys, those bison would have been shacking off the "frangible" NBTs like mosquito bites!

AIU, you're kinda steppin' in a pile of it with that comparison. Inasmuch as cast lead of the alloy type used back then was very soft their bullets shed almost no weight at all. Quite contrary to your position on why NBTs are so successful. With tongue only mildly in cheek it might be reasonably stated that Paper Patch bullets were the original controlled expansion projectile. What most of them do is give you near double caliber expansion, 95+% weight retention, and penetration beyond a great number of modern jacketed projectiles. THAT is how they kill so much game and nearly drove the bison to extinction. I know that because I have experience with them. Round balls tend to penetrate quite well too, even though they expand too, and even though of poor SD. They shed no more weight than conicals.

I'm pretty sure that shooting them with Ballistic Tips in a horridly poor idea. Bambi they ain't, and 2 tons of pissed off buff can be as hazardous in North America as in Africa.

Someone above summed up the matter susinctly with the reply the well aimmed or well placed one. A premium bullet from a cannon poorly placed will not kill humanely. A run-of-the-mill factory bullet will kill quickly if well placed. Alf really outlined well the difference that the hunted animal's size has to do with the equation.

Regarding BT's and Partitions, I like both, but let me add that the stoutness of Nosler's BT's vary by caliber considerably. The 250gr BT in 9.3mm is a really tough number. I understand that the same is true of the .338 BT. I have used the 9.3mm on various African animals with good results. The 286gr Partition in the same caliber, 9.3mm, is almost too tough. On broadside shots at zebra, eland, and at least one other large animal, the Partition hardly expanded at all. It did indeed cause a great deal of tissue damage passing thru and we recovered the animals; however, we had a challenging tracking job and I was very glad we had some expert trackers to do it. Two of these animals were hit in the vitals and just took a long time to bleed out. The other, a Topi, was poorly hit, but hindered by a "mobility" hit. The second shot from the rear using a Partition penetrated well and put the Topi down.

Contrast my experiences with the the 180gr .308 BT with those of 9.3BT, above. My first animal, a blue wildebeest, taken with a 180 BT died before it hit the ground, having been hit solidly in the spinal plexus with a shot in the chest. However, my second animal, a gemsbok, required three shots to bring it down, a fourth to quiet it, and a fifth to kill it. The shots were "almost" good, hit solid bone, fragmented,and did not penetrate deeply. It was clear to me that the 180BT in .308 was not stout enough for large African game notwithstanding how well it performed on deer and hogs here at home. The bad news was I had brought only fifty rounds, all 180's, for my 30-338, and only ten of them were partitions. I shifted to partitions and killed all the other animals I shot with partitions. Only one required more than one shot, another blue wildebeste, which I shot twice before my ph said enough.

I believe that for the majority of hunting in the USA, the non-premium bullets (Hornaday, Sierra, Speer, Remington and Winchester) are sufficient for most uses if, repeat if, a heavy enough bullet for the caliber is used. There is a tendency in the USA to use bullets that are too light and to depend upon velocity to enhance the bullet's kill ability. As Alf pointed out, blood loss is what causes incapacitation and death, and penetration contributes to that, given equally well placed bullets, more than the bullet's expansion. A shallow wound will not kill cleanly. Where the premium bullet comes into its own is with special situations such as hunting dangerous game, using a lighter bullet in a given caliber for long range shooting, and where you need to take raking shots requiring extreme penetration.

In sum, what bullet you use first depends on the animal(s) you hunt; the nature of the hunting situation (long range in open plains, mountainous, thick brush or forrest); and the caliber of your rifle relative to the hunted animal(s)' size. Given a mix of situations, pick the bullet that will work in the worst case scenario. That is why so many depend on the Partition and similar premium bullets because they will deliver in the worst case where you need deep penetration, moderate tissue disruption, and pretty fair accuracy. Kudude

Back to the topic:

1. Round Nose bullets ( Anyones!)
2. Partitions
3. Ballistic Tips with an MV under 2700 fps..
4. Speer Hot Cores
5. Hornady SPs ( on par with the Speer in my book).
6. Corelokts

That is the way I see it and a Good Bullet starts with the Corelokts... Any of the ones above that are better...

I don't care for the accuracy ( or lack of it !) of the Barnes X.. However I have a lot of good to say about their 53 grain 22 caliber XLC and their 85 grain 6mm XLC as far as terminal performance...

Good luck out there guys..

cheers
seafire

My experiences with the Ballistic Tip bullet have been moderately successful, but after witnessing failures both from my rifles and from those of others, I decided to move to other types of bullets.

My first failure was out of a rather pedestrian 6.5x55 load, which averaged 2800fps at the muzzle. This is no ultramagnum load. I used it for two years for deer and harvested a total of 7 in that period. I experienced one failure, which I disregarded, after all, 7 deer in 8 shots is pretty good. The third year, on my first hunting opportunity, I grabbed a half dozen rounds and headed afield. I glassed some cut trenches from a treestand and couldn't find much, but the tracks were easily viewable and I settled in to a stalk. A good 40 minutes in to the stalk, I came to a clearing near a watering hole. There was a nice buck standing near the edge of the hole while some others were taking a drink. The group moved off, but the buck stayed and drank his share. As he moved away, I zoomed in on the point of his shoulder. He quartered a little more, exposing a perfect shot, about 70 yards. I fired, and saw the impact in the scope. It looked like an exit wound! The buck wailed in pain and turned to make an exit, I fired another into his shoulder, knowing full well if he ran off into the sticks it would be hell to track. He went down hard, but got back up. I was a little shocked at this point, and decided to place one into the spine, which finally had him lying dead on the snowy ground. From the first shot to the moment he hit the ground was a solid 15 seconds. Not a long time, but when mortally wounded, it must feel lke eternity. Closer inspection revealed the first shot hit a rib and the bullet came flying apart, the jacket exploded lke an eggshell and the core deformed itself and barely penetrated past the ribcage. The second shot had a similar effect on the shoulder, the bullet did it's most damage by ripping thru some cartiledge and tissue in the shoulder, it did not smash it to pieces as I would have assumed. The third shot smashed through the spinal column, but there was no exit. It was enough to kill my quarry, but sadly no before he had to suffer unimaginable pain.

I switched to Hornady Interlock bullets in that rifle with the same powder and primers and have never had a failure of any sort after another several years and 10 nice whitetails.

My .270 was often used from treestands as it would muster up near 3200 fps from 130gr. Ballistic Tips out of it's 24 inch barrel. I figured that it had the power and trajectory to take down deer and black bear as far as I had business shooting. My first shot at a deer 200 yards away resulted in the same hideous surface wound, right on the point of the shoulder. It was almost nightmarish seeing the creature stand up with a horrible and not immediately fatal surface wound like that. I put the second bullet in the spine immediately and thankfully it hit the ground a heartbeat later. Upon inspection, both Ballistic Tips performed the way the others in the 6.5 had, one came apart on the rib and the terrible wound was caused by the jacket self-destructing, and the spine shot severed the spinal column but there was not much penetration beyond that.

I've since switched to 150gr. Partitions in my .270 at around 3000fps and would prefer to figure out a bit of holdover than enjoy a slightly more efficient trajectory. Everything that has been hit with a Partition has been penetrated completely, including a 350 pound black bear, two moose, and an elk. One shot, one picture perfect wound channel and instant, humane kill.

My Dad chastised me for some time, talking about my "whizzbang" calibers and "toy" bullets, while I was busy trying to justify them, he was shooting 165gr. Partitions from his '06 and wouldn't even consider letting me work a load up for him with the Ballistic Tips. "You keep those toy bullets to yourself, son," he'd say, "These Partitions worked fine for me since before you were old enough to even hold a gun". Who am I to argue.

A friend of his, though, insists on using Ballistic Tips through his stoutly loaded 7x64, and he experienced failures similar to mine, but his occured on very expensive guided caribou and moose hunts, where bullet performance should not be left to chance. He barely made it out of those hunts with trophies, and he was one of the first to switch to the Accubond technology when it became available to help prevent future failures.

I know of two others off of the top of my head who've moved from Ballistic Tips to other bullets because of bullet failure resulting in horribly wounded or lost game. You will not see any of my meager collection of rifles shooting Ballistic Tips any time in the future.

For me, Barnes X flat base for big game. Also worked good on a cape cobra in Namibia.

Nosler BT's or Speer TNT's for varmints.

Berger and Sierra for paper.

You guys crack me up. The thread immediatly deteriorates into a bash BT's and a chest pounding about Partitions. I would have to say that easily 100 times the elk every year are killed with Power Points and Corelokt's than any so called premium bullets. Most people with anysense don't aim for the "point of the shoulder" amd even at that the common factory loads do pretty well. I favor heavy Speer and Hornady bullets and have never had either fail to give plenty of penetration. I have trailed a bit of game that was hit by people who thought a "Premium" bullet allowed them to hit an animal anywhere with success gauranteed, BS!

Rick300: I like Hornadys also. Even used them in Africa. But I have to take issue with you on two points. The point of the shoulder IS an optimum place for bullet placement. It anchors the animal by breaking down it's skeletal architecture on it's way to the vitals with the added benefit of bone fragmentation aiding in the destruction of said organs. The down side of course is that it does damage more meat.

Second: No one here that advocates premiums said anythig about "you can hit them anywhere with a premium!" That's nonsense on your part. A premium does give you more latitude in taking less than optimum shots and I'll give you an example:

I was hunting bushbuk this past June and to make a long story short, As I pulled the trigger, the buck turned away so my bullet angled from behind the paunch and out through his chest. The range was about 80 yards and the rifle was a 300 Weatherby with 180 Partitions. With a softer bullet, who knows what might have happened, On a 20K hunt "might" ain't good enough. jorge

quote:

Posted 18 August 2005 03:27
Reloader

Actually that statement is not false, and as stated by someone else any guide who only cares about shot placement doesnt live in the real world or is not experienced at all.

As we all know good intentions often go south quickly. You say that it is a persons fault if he is using a "frangible" bullet and then takes a close shot. Well thats called hunting, if you know the range that your target is going to be at you must be a psychic or something. Why would you use a bullet that couldnt be used at close or far distances? or only on a perfect broadside animal, or only on rib shots, or only, sounds like way too many conditions to me.

I have never heard of premiums failing more than frangible bullets but maybe your psychic powers are kicking in again.Hey if you like your venison looking like it was hit by a train then good for you, but a BT or Sierra will never foul any of my barrels.

Get Real! You obviously have a very closed minded opinion on things and aren't willing to accept hard evidence and proven facts. It is a FACT that guides, Very Experienced Guides value shot placement over Bullet choice any day of the week. If they don't, they are not someone you need to be hunting w/ because they obviously haven't been doing it long enough. You are imediately saying I'm advocating the use of Varmint Bullets on Big Game animals but, I'm not in any way. Bullets definitely need to be matched to the game at hand.

W/ your way of thinking then just because you have a Barnes X or a Nosler Partition You can shoot a Elk in the Rear Ham or the Guts and he's going to pile up on the spot. Get Real.

These post always get thrown off coarse by folks not wanting to accept the facts.

I could care less what bullet you use. If you want to use a FMJ, go ahead. Any bullet will kill as long as you put it in the right place.

The load of Bull about premiums taking up the slack for bad shot placement could go either way. If you place a Hard bullet through the guts, you're in a world of trouble. If you place a Hard bullet through the Shoulder Blade, Sure, you stand a better chance but, you still had bad shot placement because large bones can deflect even the best bullets in production.

Shot Placement is the Key to hunting success!

Tough Bullets have there Place as well as the Plain Jain bullets do.

Tough bullets were envented for tough game. If I were hunting big Elk, Moose, or Bear, I'd take a Nosler Partition or Barnes X but, I'd feel quite confident w/ a 180 Grain NBT at a Moderate Velocity placed right through the lungs on the ELk or the Moose.

On Game that is from Mule Deer size and below, a run of the mill soft point or a properly weighted NBT at a reasonable velocity will kill like lightening and that was what this whole post was about. NBTs are hunting bullets that have design parameters, they ARE NOT Varmint bullets like some idiots like to think, they are designed for thin skinned big game and for that my friend, they are great. There has been Millions of game animals taken w/ plain cup-n-core bullets and there will be many many more to go.


Have a Good One

Reloader

quote:

You guys crack me up. The thread immediatly deteriorates into a bash BT's and a chest pounding about Partitions. I would have to say that easily 100 times the elk every year are killed with Power Points and Corelokt's than any so called premium bullets. Most people with anysense don't aim for the "point of the shoulder" amd even at that the common factory loads do pretty well. I favor heavy Speer and Hornady bullets and have never had either fail to give plenty of penetration. I have trailed a bit of game that was hit by people who thought a "Premium" bullet allowed them to hit an animal anywhere with success gauranteed, BS!

Very True indeed.

Reloader

AIU,

I'm not attempting to sway your opinion based on your experience, but am just sharing my experience w/ the 30cal 165gr Sierra Gameking.

I utilized a Chandler M40 for a couple years culling deer during kill permit operations. This rifle shoots several military and law enforcement loads extremely well but I wanted a traditional expanding hunting bullet close to 168 grains. The Sierra 165 Gamekings proved to be the most accurate hunting bullet I could find and were spot on and nearly as accurate as my best long range loadings.

I used this combination for two seasons to take more deer than most take in a lifetime. I worked very hard to make this bullet work for me as I was so pleased w/ its accuracy compared to my standard ammo. It was a struggle to say the least.

In the end, I came to the conclusion that this bullet limited my ability to take the majority of the shots I needed to make. In addition, on the deer I took, the bullet caused more waste of venision on the whole than I could accept.

Below I included two posts I made previously on the subject. Keep in mind this relates to the 165 Gamekings only as I cannot relate enough experience on the other calibers in this bullet.

This was a post I made reference that all Gamekings are not equal:

I don't think that all Gamekings are created equal. Certain calibers of the Gameking bullet are thicker constructed either due to intended game and/or magnum velocities. Even w/in the same caliber, certain weights are built w/ either thicker construction or thinner construction depending on Sierra's intended use for that bullet.

The conclusion I've made on the specific Gameking in this discussion is that it is too lightly constructed for my needs on medium to heavy whitetail deer when shot in the 2600-2700fps or faster at the distances I normally shoot. Sierra engineered this bullet to perform its best at mv of 2600-3200fps at distances of 150-500yards. It is a long range hunting bullet that is stretched too thin when it strikes bone or it's used on the bigger deer at close range.

The 180 and 200 Gamekings are slightly better constructed, but the 150,180 and 220 Pro-Hunters are better suited in .30 caliber if Sierra is used.

Below is a post giving an overview of my experience culling deer w/ the Gameking bullet:

Wildboar,

I didn't read all of the above posts, so I may just be duplicating info.

I can't speak for other calibers, but I've had nothing but spotty performance w/ this bullet in a 308win on whitetail deer. I've culled deer on an annual basis since around 1994. For a couple of years I used an as issue M40 sniper rifle. I used an identical handload to the standard 168matchking round but w/ the 165gameking bullet. I took quite a few medium to large deer w/ this combo at distances from point blank out to approx. 300yds. All were killed, but much meat was destroyed at close range and many traveled great distances w/ vitals hit before expiring on quite a few of the longer shots.

I had several not open on these long shots and the majority would completely come apart on shots inside 50yds. One of the worst that I recorded was shot slightly 1/4 towards, behind the left shoulder, level w/ the horizon. If the bullet went straight thru, it would have exited the right side ribs in the rear vitals area. Instead, the jacket separated from the lead and made a right hand turn. The jacket ran the left side of the deer opening it up like a zipper w/ the intact and undamaged entrails falling out the opening. This jacket came to rest in the left rear ham (jacket was all intact but jagged). The lead core disintegrated into small chunks and was scattered from the right front shoulder all the way to the right rear ham. The heart and lungs were intact but for small holes, rips and tears. The only bone this bullet hit upon striking the deer was a rib!

This was the last time I used that bullet for hunting.

AIU, so as far as my needs are concerned, I've developed a solid opinion on the Gameking bullet based on lots of personal experience. I wouldn't consider myself biased (against this bullet) as I worked so hard to make it work.

Your experience and needs are clearly different than mine as you are able to make this bullet work. I respect that as your opinion.

Gary

It really is not a question about "will it kill," but more of a question of "is there something better."

Would Nosler come out with the Accubond if there was not some evidence that the BT had issues? Or was it simply a marketing issue?

I have experienced some pretty good results with the "premium" bullets, especially the solid copper bullets. Since I handload, I find no reason not to use better quality bullets when I hunt.

GaryVA, do you have as much experience with a different bullet as you have with the SGK?

This is what Nosler has to say about the NBT, AC, and Partition. What do they know?

Ballistic Tip Bullet:

In a perfect world, there would be no changing winds, no hunting pressure, no wary, spooked, or running game that might require a fleeting or distant shot. And all it would take to bring down that trophy buck would be a textbook 100 yard broadside shot..Fortunately for us, the real world of hunting is a bit more challenging than that. In fact, the more you hunt, the more you realize how unpredictable and unforgiving nature can be--which is why we engineered the Ballistic Tip® Hunting bullet to be very predictable and extremely forgiving.

1. The Ballistic Tip® Hunting bullet's polycarbonate tip resists deformation in the magazine and initiates expansion upon impact.

2. Fully tapered jacket and special lead alloy core allows controlled expansion and optimum weight retention at all practical velocity levels.

3. Heavy jacket base acts as a platform for large diameter mushroom.

4. Ballistically engineered Solid Base® boat tail configuration combines with the streamlined polycarbonate tip for extreme long range performance.

Nosler AccuBond:

The Ultimate Bonded Core Bullet…Any way you look at it. A serious hunting bullet designed to typical Nosler standards. AccuBond™ represents the most advanced bonded core bullet technology to date. Through a proprietary bonding process that eliminates voids in the bullet core, AccuBond marries Nosler’s traditional copper-alloy jacket with its special lead-alloy core. The result is a bullet that flies true, penetrates deep and retains its weight—and won’t cause extensive barrel fouling. Nosler AccuBond™--the benchmark by which all bonded core bullets will be measured.

1. Fully tapered, heavy alloy jacket is bonded to the special lead alloy core through a proprietary process designed for controlled expansion, deep penetration and 60-70% weight retention.

2. Totally concentric, impact extruded jacket bonds completely to the bullet core for extreme accuracy.

3. The AccuBond bullet's polymer tip resists deformation in the magazine and initiates expansion upon impact.

4. Nosler Solid Base® design jacket base acts as a platform for large diameter mushroom.

5. Ballistically engineered Solid Base® boat tail configuration combines with the streamlined polymer tip for extreme long range performance.

Nosler Partition:

Favored the world over for its superior penetration and bone-crushing stopping power, the Nosler Partition® bullet provides the ultimate in accuracy, controlled expansion and weight retention in any caliber, on any game, and in any situation. Nosler Partition® is truly the standard of excellence and value in big game hunting bullets.

1. Fully tapered jacket ruptures instantly at the thin jacket mouth, yet the gradual thickening along the bullet's axis controls expansion and curls the jacket uniformly outward, at high or low velocities.

2. Nosler's special lead alloy dual core construction provides superior mushrooming characteristics at virtually all impact velocities.

3. Nosler's integral partition supports the expanded mushroom and retains the rear lead alloy core.

4. Special crimp locks in the rear core section, adding strength to resist deformation under the pressure of heavy magnums.

5. Enclosed rear core retains more than half the original bullet weight for deep penetration.

My only experience with the Ballistic tip shas been with a 150 grain bullet in my 7MM mauser and this bullet hit a going away whitetail behind the las rib on the right side, exited the left side in front of the shoulder, hit the ground, bounced and went thru the side of a galvanized steel water trough thet was full and left out the top of the trough never to be found. All this negative talk of BT's has caused me to not use them again. Sierra's are a different story. For a while in the 70's I used a lot of them and they worked fine as long as I hit no major bone on the side of the animal I was shooting at, this with the 130 Prohunter in a 270. One day I took an inexperienced friend hunting and she hit an antelope on the shoulder bone just under the shoulder blade and I saw the only impact bullet explosion I've seen. A crater wascreated 5 inches across, the bone was broken but only a few fragments made it into the chest, four miles later we caught up and finished this amnimal. Range 50 feet. The other major failure was a 250 grain Gameking thet hit an elk thru the ribs at 450 yards from my 338 and did not expand creating a recovery problem of magnificent proportions. On the other hand a favorite deer bullet is the 7MM 160 grain Gameking, nothing but good to excellent performance when started at 2600 FPS.

To me it seems if everybody is missing the whole point of bullet construction and performance...

Because bullets are made so differently, there are advantages and disadvantages to each, it is our job as hunters to exploit the advantages and minimize the disadvanges based on the game animal sought, the caliber, the likely distance of the shot, the terrain involved, muzzle velocity, etc.

I use a lot of different bullet styles and constructions depending on the application involved. Unfortunately, there is no perfect bullet for any situation, but there are some good all around bullets. For example, the partition or the barnes solids are great all around bullets, but not 'perfect' in every situation. For my whitetail hunting (average wt 175# in Tennessee) on the big fields where shots are 200-500 yards, I use a 7mm 150gr NBT at 3250fps mv. I aim for the center of the kill zone (which is an inch or two BEHIND the point of the shoulder) which consistently results in animals dropping like a sack of potatoes in the 200-350 yard ranges, usually with the bullet lodging just under the hide on the opposite side, and at 350-500 yards I usually get a complete pass through with the animal running 50-100 yards before exsanguination. If I miss and hit the shoulder, I still get excellent penetration and performance at these distances.

I hunt with a different rifle completely in the woods or where shots may be closer... here I use either a 7mm140gr NBT at 2850fps or a 150gr accubond at 3000fps, depending on the rifle used. Similar terminal performance, dead deer period. Would I use the ballistic tip to shoot a 700lb game animal at 50 yards with the 7mm, heck no. But neither would I ever consider using a partition or a barnes on a whitetail close to thick cover where a 200 yard tracking job could result in a lost animal due to poor expansion and small exit holes.

I am however considering trying the barnes tsx 7mm 120 gr at 3500fps this year in the big fields... anybody out there with experience on the lighter barnes bullets per caliber at high velocities?

Reloader, AIU, Rick300, etc: You people make Mother Teresa want to climb a water tower with a sniper rifle. NOBODY's advocating, saying or insinuating that if you use a premium bullet you can feel free to gut shoot animals. Nobody. What is so difficult for you to comprehend?

All I am saying is premiums give you added flexibility in that if you are at close range a premium stands a better chance of not failing or if that elk of a lifetime is behind a tree and all he's giving ou is the shoulder, the premium can give you an edge over an NBT particularly if impact velocity will exceed 2700 fps. Do you need repetition like in first grade? well just in case: NOBODY IS ADVOCATING GUT SHOOTING ANIMALS JUST BECAUSE A PREMIUM IS USED. And again, just my opinion, a shot to the point of the shoulder is the best shot one can take. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by megalomaniac:
For my whitetail hunting (average wt 175# in Tennessee) on the big fields where shots are 200-500 yards, I use a 7mm 150gr NBT at 3250fps mv. I aim for the center of the kill zone (which is an inch or two BEHIND the point of the shoulder) which consistently results in animals dropping like a sack of potatoes in the 200-350 yard ranges, usually with the bullet lodging just under the hide on the opposite side, and at 350-500 yards I usually get a complete pass through with the animal running 50-100 yards before exsanguination.

How come you get complete pass through shots at a longer distance, than a shorter distance, when you are hitting them in the same place?

long heavy for cal bullets ( good s.d. ) with good shot placement. shot placement is the most important so get close or shoot better. for deer i prefer a bow or 45-70 to bring the "hunting" aspect into it

Peak, you get less expansion w/ less vel. & penetration increases. That's why all this talk about this bullet or that bullet really depends on how you hunt. Like I saud earlier, NBTs may be great for the guy in a treestand that can pick his shot, but for the guy in the bush, any shot may present itself & then the bullet will count as much as the shot placement.
jayco, I know a lot of guys that aren't rich but only hunt w/ a Nosler Part. You buy a box, work up a load & just hunt w/ them. You can practice w/ cheaper bullets. Really a $30 box of 50 should last you 10 years of hunting. Are you talking about the same guys that will spend $35K for a new truck & then want to scrimp on the cost of their bullets?