I believe bullet killing power is a topic worth discussing, because too much emphasis is placed on "penetration," especially when hunting North American big game (possibly excepting very, very large grizzly bears).

A recent thread referred to a piece (i.e., posted here 05 August 2005 04:55 http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html#solids) has little to do with the reality of killing an actual big-game animal, because animals are not constructed like plywood sheets, telephone books, wet newspaper, and the like. (Although, if you want to shoot through walls and penetrate bunkers, this piece is probably relevant.)

We've all removed the entrails from a deer or elk and seen the construction of the body cavity. The thorax is somewhat like an egg – that is, a relatively thin rib-cage shell with soft friable insides. For a typical chest shot, the bullet must penetrate the skin and rib cage, which at most are only a few inches thick. Once the bullet is inside the thoracic cavity there’s very little to cause further bullet expansion, even of the softest bullets. The lungs are spongy and filled with air and blood, and the heart and great vessels are firm but essentially blood filled cavities. Because of this construction, I want a bullet that will get through the skin and rib cage, but already starting to expand and even break-up. The expanded bullet and the break-up pieces will act like the pellets of shotgun – ripping and tearing tissues in all directions and cutting across many great vessels, thus causing massive internal bleeding, shock, and rapid death. If the vertebral column is hit – GREAT! - the animal will be knocked out, paralyzed, and go down in flash. There can be no more humane death.

Now you’re saying, what about a shoulder shot? Again the shoulder muscles and scapula/leg bones are not that thick when compared to the hind quarters. The shoulder will start bullet expansion and start bullet break-up; such that, once inside the thoracic cavity the deformed bullet and fragments will wreak havoc on the heart, lungs, and great vessels.

Velocity is also very important, because the forward momentum (or kinetic energy) of the bullet is transferred to lateral movement of water as the water is pushed to the side. You’ve all seen the exploding watermelon as a speeding bullet goes through it, and we’ve all witnessed the macabre movies depicting an exploding prairie dog as a high-velocity varmint bullet hits it. This transfer of forward bullet momentum to lateral water momentum explains the EXPLOSIVE (hydro shock) effects of being hit by a high-velocity bullet. The massive hydro shock is very important in the killing power of a bullet.

I’ve used Nosler Ballistic Tips (NBT) for years and killed many big game animals from antelope, deer, elk, and caribou. NBTs are perfect for killing animals, because the bullets are not too heavily constructed. They penetrate the thoracic wall and shoulder and demolish the lungs, heart, and great vessels. I’ve never experienced a failure, and the animals drop dead in their tracks – just like a bomb went off inside the chest. This is what I want – A HUMANE DEATH with minimal suffering.

In summary, the NBT and similar bullets (Sierra Game King) are ideal hunting bullets, both accurate and producing humane kills. I’m staying with my NBTs. Using bullets that are too solid for North American big game seems silly to me, because it's like shooting them with a fast moving arrow. Go with the NBTs.

I consider Nosler Partitions to be first-rate, humane, 100%-reliable, do-it-all hunting bullets, and they are superbly-accurate out of a good rifle. They'll do all that the tin-foil bullets will do and then some, and on all classes of game, from pronghorn to moose.

I don't see any good reason to go with Sierras or NBTs for ANY big game hunting, and I no longer use them for any big game hunting.

AD

I think a lot depends on your style of hunting. For the stand hunters, you can pretty much sit & pick your shot, so fragile bullets, say NBTs, that you can zip between a couple ribs on a broadside shot kill very quickly. If you still hunt, you may only get one chance at an odd angle, so a bit harder bullet, say a NP, would insure you get to the vitals from any reasonable angle. I don't stand hunt so I like the insurance a NP or other premium bullet gives me, even on deer. I've never had a tracking job using NPs, that's my story & I'm stickin to it.

Ackley Improved User
You are correct, as long as your shots are broad side, and your velocity is not too high. I have killed a lot of game [deersized] with Sierras and Nosler Ballistic Tips. However on bigger game, or any game where I might haver to take less than a perfect broad side shot I agree with Allen. The Nosler Partitions kill on broadside shots almost as well at Sierras and NBT's but preform much, much better on raking shots. It is the bullet that does all the work, The Nosler Partition is probably the best allround bullet there is.

I can only speak to my experience w/ 30cal 165gr Gamekings used on medium to large whitetail deer at approx. 2600-2700fps mv, close to mid-range; I will never use them again. I find there are far better choices available.

Gary

quote:

In summary, the NBT and similar bullets (Sierra Game King) are ideal hunting bullets, both accurate and producing humane kills. I’m staying with my NBTs. Using bullets that are too solid for North American big game seems silly to me, because it's like shooting them with a fast moving arrow. Go with the NBTs.

Your conclusions are too general. Sure if the Ballistic Tip is a huge bullet going fast enough and the game is on the small side but not the opposite.

Allen Day gave the correct "why not" answer.

So either use enough gun no matter what, a premium bullet or limit your aiming.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Ackley Improved User
You are correct, as long as your shots are broad side, and your velocity is not too high. I have killed a lot of game [deersized] with Sierras and Nosler Ballistic Tips. However on bigger game, or any game where I might haver to take less than a perfect broad side shot I agree with Allen. The Nosler Partitions kill on broadside shots almost as well at Sierras and NBT's but preform much, much better on raking shots. It is the bullet that does all the work, The Nosler Partition is probably the best allround bullet there is.

Ackley Improved User,

I have to agree with "N E 450 No2" when he says "You are correct, as long as your shots are broad side, and your velocity is not too high.". I have seen to many drastic failures(bullet fragmenting and not reaching the vitals) with Nosler Ballistic Tips when the velocity goes over 2,900 fps.(not my figure but the figure supplied by the Nosler technicians). The best bullet for big game hunting is one that penetrates deeply, expands without fragmenting and leaves an exit wound(helps when having to track wounded game). It is for these three reason I used to use Nosler Partitions(for over 40 years) but now have switched to Barnes TSX. The TSX penetrates as well or better than the Partition, is more accurate and does all that at a lighter bullet weight which gives a flatter trajectory. Lawdog

AI,
I couldn't agree with you more... one more thing to consider- the effect of 'spinal shock' which is produced by a rapidly expanding bullet in the chest cavity which carries the hydrostatic shock wave through the chest cavity to the spinal cord and produces the immediate collapse of the animal. While this does not sever the cord, the trauma inflicted by the bullet allows the animal to exsanguinate before it can regain its feet.

Most of my shots on deer are at 200-500 yards, so I have the benefit of waiting for that perfect broadside shot or I don't shoot at all. My ideal bullet penetrates into the chest cavity and completely transfers all energy into the chest cavity with no exit hole. Don't have to worry about the blood trail, as the animal will almost always drop instantly.

The biggest problem with NBT's (and I use them almost exclusively on whitetails), is hitting game in the scapula at ultrahigh velocities. My cousin shot a deer at 50 yards with a 7mm bullet travelling at 3350 fps which hit the scapula and exploded, which allowed me the opportunity to provide the follow up shot and put the animal down. As long as one realizes that all bullets have some limitation and tailors their shot selection and placement to those limitations, no problem

I use the BT's in my 270 for prairie dogs, a great bullet. I used them on deer and it was a mess. The bullet exploded on a quartering away shot, It was a 6 x 6 mulie and it was a good angle, but the wrong bullet. I recovered the deer but it took another shot. I'll never use them on big game again.

In my opinion the Barnes X (TSX, XLC or XBT/XFB--->you pick) kills quickly and humanely. I also prefer it over Nosler BT or any bullet which is designed to transfer all of its energy into the animal. I prefer complete penetration with very little of the "hydrostatic shock" which I have found merely destroys meat. I have used Nosler BT's and every animal I have seen killed looks like an M80 went off in the impact area. I am not convinced that the animal was killed any more "humanely" than if the bullet had neatly penetrated clear through. Others may have had better experiences with Nosler BT's and worse experiences with Barnes, but that has been mine....

As far as the term "bullet failure" what exactly is expected of an inanimate object? If I shoot a 165 Sierra Game king out of a .300 Ultramag at a 25 yards and the bullet hits the scapula and explodes and somehow the critter survives this and gets away.....who has failed? The bullet? It came out the end of the barrel at the speed I determined (+/- 20 fps) and impacted the target at the point I determined. With as much information as is available on places like here, how could I argue that I did not know that was possible? YET, I STILL made the decision to pull the trigger. That would not be the bullets failure....that would be mine.

IV

A well aimed one.
JS

I've always found the NBT to be fairly tough bullet, always penetrating to the opposite thoracic wall, usually completely through the animal. The NBT is not a fragile bullet. I've never had the problems you guys describe.

What sort of animals have you hunted, and where?

The most avid BT enthusiasts I know of are dedicated whitetail hunters who don't hunt much of anything else.

Just because you haven't experienced any failures with this bullet doesn't mean that the rest of us haven't. I've had catasrophic blow-ups with these bullets on deer as well as pronghorns, and no, I'm not making this stuff up. They're no elk bullet by any means, and I would NEVER use them on elk, moose, sheep, bears, or on any African game except for baboons.

BTs are NOT a tough bullet. Premium bullets were created for a reason, and that's to perform where the tin-foil bullets fail.......

AD

Allen Day is still on the safe ground here as a Partiton may perform about the same as a BT in terms of fragmenting yet it would penetrate deeper if it had not reached a vital area yet.

The BT will work on smaller critters and smash them up good thus the bullet must be matched to the game. The BT's in general have less flexibility than some premium bullets thats all not that they might not be optimum in some specific instance.

There have been many reported cases of the polymer tip bullets disintergrating on impact when velocities are in excess of 3000 fps on impact.

I have recently done a lot of shooting with the solid copper bullets. Barnes and Lost River are two that I have most experience with. The Barnes TSX is commercially available and is outstanding. I recently took a Dall Sheep with a Lost River J36 135 gr bullet out of a 270 WSM. I was shooting down while the animal was lying on a bench below me. I had to place the shot below his chin, in order to hit the mid-neck area, so it would angle into the vitals. It was very effective.

I have tried and used a bunch of different bullets through the years and the Nosler has by far worked the best for me for the "Instant" if you will,kill.With all things being the same as shot placement etc,the Nosler just has stood out for being more reliable in putting them down quicker which is very important to me in the steep terrain I hunt.

Good luck on your choice.

Jayco

Jayco, do you mean Nosler Partitions?

AD

Peakbroke-me thinks you were hunting with Kelly Hogan were you? Just curious, it was the dog that made me ask.

THX

MD

sorry for the thread deviation guys

Ballistic Tips in 338 caliber seem to hold together, at least according to a survey of my relatives that use them. They are all unanimous that the smaller calibers are too soft to be reliable on anything but varmints. I'm not inclined to doubt them as some of them have shot loads of game with all sorts of different bullets.

I was hunting with Stan Stevens in the NWT. The guide was Scott Boyd.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Jayco, do you mean Nosler Partitions?

AD

Allan-Yes I do.The good old Nosler Partition although I also use the 300 grain Nolser Protected Point in my 45-70.I haven't got anything with that one yet as I chose to use the 300 Barnes XFN last year on my Elk hunt and it sure is a penetrater and killer also.Great results and penetration.Dropped him on the spot.

Jayco

Peakebrook, how do you like those pants? Cabelas Dry-Plus it looks like. They look like one heck of a garment, but I haven't ventured out in mine yet.

Nice Ram by the way.

Chuck

Like most who post on these forums, OPINIONS rarely change. To each his own, but I have COMPLETE CONFIDENCE in NBTs. I've dropped 5 bull elk with .30 caliber 165 and 180 gr. NBTs - two dropped so fast after one shot, I thought I'd missed. The other 3 staggered a few steps and dropped dead. Ranges were from 250 to 350 yds, and they were shot at both angles and broadside. The NBTs were located under the hide on the opposite side of entry with estimated 50% weight retention.

NBTs might be too much bullet for antelope and great for deer and caribou, just like elk. I've not killed a moose with a NBT, but I saw one killed with a 22-250 using a 55 gr. NBT. It was shot in the neck, and it dropped dead - just like moose killed with 460 Weatherby Magnums.

Actually, I believe all these modern hunting bullets work great, but only when the animals are hit in vital areas. A GUT shot with the latest-and-greatest, "titanium-coated triple X-squared solid sledgehammer" is still a gut shot - you might as well use a bow-and-arrow. A poorly shot critter - no matter the bullet or velocity - is going to run off and taste like shit latter, if you find'im at all.

Bullet construction is a very big deal to me. With very few exceptions, it's also a very big deal to every professional hunting guide I've ever known anywhere in the world.

Bullet construction is more important than the rifle, action-type, scope, cartridge, engraving pattern, wood versus synthetic, Keith versus O'Connor, Browning A-Bolt versus Griffin & Howe, or 1/2 MOA groups versus 1 MOA groups. It's the one single variable that has the biggest effect on the outcome of the shot, and ultimately, your investment in that hunt.

It can keep you from trailing an elk for half a mile because the bullet blew up going in (been there, done that), and it can keep your sorry fanny alive in the face of dangerous game --been there, done that as well. There is absolutely NO excuse for using some tin-foil projectile on any sort of big, tough, tenacious big game animal, and in our elk camp here at home, that's the first thing we talk about with any guest who gets invited into camp. We don't care if he brings a 30-06 instead of a 338 Win., but we do care that he brings ammo that's stoked with a good, dependable, premium bullet that won't come apart. Assuming the shot was well-placed, that's the ONE issue that's cause problems for us -- not whether the cartridge was big enough, not if the rifle came from Walmart or some custom shop, but where the bullet was capable of staying together or not.

What I can't figure out is why anyone would cling to a bullet with a checkerd reputation like the BT to begin with. The most common is another one of those 21st-centry icons I've grown to despise, "benchrest-accuracy", but I've found that paper-puncher's preoccupation to be entirely misplaced when it comes to big game hunting. It's fine if you're hunting varmints, fine if you're shooting scrawny whitetails out of some tower, but for all big game under all conditions, it's the wrong priorty.

AD

You are completely right AIU, opinion's vary, but you did ask, so? Everyone is free to hunt w/ the bullet they choose, even the SMK but when, & it will happen, things go wrong & the animal of your dreams is lost to another hunter or just lost, you'll come around to what many of the guys here have, better bullets are out there.

My experience isn't as extensive as some of you here, but I think it's enough not to use NBTs when there are other bullets out there that will do the job much more effectively and with virtually zero chance of coming apart before reaaching the vitals.

The NBTs worked on those elk at 250 and 350 yards respectively because the bullets were probably well under 2600 fps (or thereabouts) and probably no large bones were hit. What if the elk was at 50 or even 150 yards and you hit him smack on the shoulder? (where I aim to place all my shots BTW). When I'm out there on a high dollar hunt I don't want to be fooling around like those idiots on hunting shows that always "wait until they turn sideways" to make a lung shot in order to avoid bone. Not me, thank you. If the animal's in range and I can make the shot, I'm taking it and with a Partition, TSX, TBBC or my favorite Swift A Frame, I don't have to worry. Break bone on the way into the vitals and you don't need tracking skills. Try that with an NBT or a Sierra and you're just asking for trouble. jorge

Allen;
Well put, I couldn't agree more !!!
Charlie

Chuck

The pants are Cabela's Micro fleece. Very light and dries quickly. I had one set of light rain pants on the trip. It was all about weight on this trip. Everything was backpacked. The Mackenzie Mountains are simple amazing.

I was a long time proponent of the Nosler BT and repeated the same as AI, "I've never had the problems you guys describe." That held until about 12 years ago. I shot a Mule deer at 160 yards, just behind the shoulder from a .257 Roberts. The deer staggered and dropped and we lost sight of it on the way up to get it. When we got there he was not where he was hit. It was found some 75 yards away but on wobbly legs, obviously in shock, and a finishing shot put it down. The first bullet had entered betweeh the ribs behind the shoulder and may have been deflected. There was no evidence of the bullet making a solid hit on a rib. The deflection was almost 90 degrees and the bullet travelled up the neck before coming apart 2/3 of the way to the head. There were small cuts on the outside of the neck all the way around, where the bullet fragments had acted like shrapnel.

I had been using Nosler Partitions for elk and went to them for all my big game hunting. I have had total success with those bullets and will never use another BT for game.

BTW, you say that there is very little inside the chest cavity to cause expansion. Take a look at the expansion of a bullet fired into gelation blocks.

quote:

I've always found the NBT to be fairly tough bullet, always penetrating to the opposite thoracic wall, usually completely through the animal. The NBT is not a fragile bullet. I've never had the problems you guys describe.

My experiences reflect the same when they were used on Whitetail and Wild Hog sized animals.

I've only seen 3 NBTs fail to exit the animals specified. Two were severe quartering shots on large bodied whitetail bucks (210 & 240) at close range (50 yds) and .284 140 grners w/ a MV of 3200+ fps both of which went completely through all vitals and ribs and lay pressed against the skin w/ 40+% weight retention. The other, an Absolute Huge Boar. The Boar was visably larger than a 350# Boar that had to be piece weighed and verified on a 300# scale (He was Estimated in the 500# range). That Boar was taken at 50 yards w/ a 7RM w/ a MV of 3100+ fps the shot was broad side in the center of the Shield at the rear of the shoulder blade, that bullet went through the shield, Bones, Lard, Meat, & Vitals before coming to rest on the far side. By the Way, That Boar fell like he'd been hit w/ a 1000# Sledge Hammer. Anyone who has hunted Wild Boar will tell you that the large Boars are some of the toughest constructed game animals we have in NA.

By hearing the strange encounters witnessed by very few hunters that have seen very few animals taken w/ the NBTs and developed such strong disbeliefs in their Performance, It makes me wish that I had documented every Kill (With Photos) that I've experienced w/ the NBTs. It wasn't until I started reading accounts on the Internet that I'd heard of poor performance from NBTs, They're quiet the bullet around here.

I don't hold any disbelief in those that swear by the Nosler Partitions at all. If they've worked great for you, then by all means use them. I've personally had bad results w/ them on smallish Whitetail sized animals by leaving pin holes in and out on rib shot animals, that's my reason for staying away from them on smaller big game. If you are a Shoulder Shooter, they are the ticket for sure.

As for the best Humanely Killing Bullet, IMO it's the NBT. They flat strike deer sized game like lightening, I've dropped a pile of deer w/ hits just through the lungs and ribs as well as shoulders and spines. I think they are not too soft and not too tough (Just Right ) for smaller big game animals. I've found them to hold up better than traditional Cup and Core Bullets which, I believe is due to the thicker jacket and Solid Base features. I believe if more people looked at the profiles of different "plain jane" bullets, they be surprised at the characteristics of the NBTs.

Good Luck!

Reloader

quote:

I was a long time proponent of the Nosler BT and repeated the same as AI, "I've never had the problems you guys describe." That held until about 12 years ago. I shot a Mule deer at 160 yards, just behind the shoulder from a .257 Roberts. The deer staggered and dropped and we lost sight of it on the way up to get it. When we got there he was not where he was hit. It was found some 75 yards away but on wobbly legs, obviously in shock, and a finishing shot put it down. The first bullet had entered betweeh the ribs behind the shoulder and may have been deflected. There was no evidence of the bullet making a solid hit on a rib. The deflection was almost 90 degrees and the bullet travelled up the neck before coming apart 2/3 of the way to the head. There were small cuts on the outside of the neck all the way around, where the bullet fragments had acted like shrapnel.

I had been using Nosler Partitions for elk and went to them for all my big game hunting. I have had total success with those bullets and will never use another BT for game.

I have a few questions about this:

First, it's virtually impossible for a bullet to deflect at 90 degrees when it hits an animal on a broad side shot especially, w/o touching bone but, you didn't mention whether he was broad side or not?

Could the bullet have hit a twig, branch, etc. on prior to the animal?

And Last, Why give up on a bullet after one mishap? If that was the case, no bullet in production would work because someone somewhere has had a so called mishap w/ that type of bullet.

I try to at least base my opinions on bullets after I've seen several of them in action.

Reloader

I think I'm beginning to sound like a broken record.

#1) I have personally never had a problem with the Nosler Btip but I've only killed deer with them. (Well, aside from a few yotes and such).

#2) I've never had a problem with a Partition

#3) I've never had a problem with the Swift Scirocco

#4) No problems with accubond, no problems with AFrame, no problems with wildcat bullets, or speer hotcore or boat tail. No problem with Hornady interlokt boat tail.

#5) and most of all, I've never had any problem with the Barnes TSX, in fact, I have the most confidence knowing that THAT bullet is stuffed in my shell on a hunt. The partition falls close behind, but simply put, the accuracy difference makes the choice for me.

Any "problem" or "failure" I've ever witnessed for me was, as put earlier, My failure, or poor judgement, or poor shot decision.

But still, I have to admit, I've never lost a deer with the Btip...but none were traveling at excessive speeds either.

For example, in my Ruger 270, my 150's were at 2700fps 10-15 feet from the muzzle. Beautiful results on game. 140's were roughly 2820, and 130's were around 2910.

My attraction to the Btip was simple: it was "pretty" and looked "cool" and it is very accurate. But, like AD stated, with good tuning, the partition is a very good shooter.

.

AIU, I'll have to disagree with you on two points. I will not use NBTs or SGKs because of their frangible nature. I too have seen what they do, I don't like it. Best of luck to you with your choice. I do not think that North American big game requires premium bullets for the most part either, just something a bit tougher than your two choices.

The other item is your reference to the link in your post. Sometimes you need to read all of a web site to gain context. The fella that wrote that stuff is discussing the work of his profession, a ballistician with direct dealings in terminal ballistics. When you have several hours to kill(bullet of your choice) try this, it's the WHOLE THING:

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

When I hunt big game and that is often, I want a bullet that will shoot through that animal lengthwise or come real close to it and on most angling shots and broadside I want two holes and that places penitration way up the list for me....Bullets that don't exit often don't leave much of a blood trail...

Light exploding bullets will kill like lightening and that sucks the amatuer hunter in fast, but you simply cannot depend on them, because sooner or later you will lose a fine game animal...I would rather get full penetration with a little less expansion, and a good blood trail for 50 or so yards and positive killing...

I use Nosler Partitions, Northfork, Woodleigh and GS Customs bullets for most of my game hunting, see no reason to use a lesser bullet or a bullet prone to failure and that is any bullet thats not a premium bullet...the extra cost is so little per animal that its not even a consideration....Gas prices bother me not bullet prices....

Reloader,
I am glad you think it is "virtually impossible", but it isn't. It was a broadside shot and it did not hit any twigs. When I said it may have been deflected it would have been the result of the edge of a rib. I gave up on it because it exhibited the same failures that I had been labelling as BS from others experiences, =only now it had happened to me. I also had much better success with the partition. If you wish to stick with this bullet go right ahead. There are far better bullets from my experience and the partition is one of them and the one I choose to use exclusively for big game.

Ackley

why anyone would want a "bomb" to go off inside a game animal is beyond my comprehension. I love venison and even with a rib shot frangible bullets blood-shot too much meat, and thats a fact.

It's ironic that you mentioned the 165gr ballistic tip for elk. Noted gun writed John Barsness once wrote an article about a friend who used the same, in a 30-06 for elk. John warned the guy that sooner or later he was going to have a bullet failure and a wounded animal. Well every year the guy would call and say, yeah got my elk this year, rubbing it in his face. One year the guy calls and says, what other bullet would you recomend for elk, turns out the bullet failed and he chased the elk around the mountain for awhile.

Any person who has a lot of experience with killing big game stays away from frangible bullets. Ask any good guide or professional hunter and see what they say. If you use them long enough you will have a failure, but of course thats your perogative.

I have used Barnes X bullets on small whitetail does with perfect expansion and very quick deaths. I would also not be worried about any shot angle as i know it would penetrate completely. I feel that the least that i owe any animal i would point a rifle at and shoot.

quote:

First, it's virtually impossible for a bullet to deflect at 90 degrees when it hits an animal on a broad side shot

Actually it is not. I've seen more than a few tracers deflect as much as 180*. I also shot a deer some years ago with a 30-30, using a Hornady 150 gr. RN for a lung shot as the deer quartered away from me at about 40 yards. The bullet exited the off side ham without touching the off side lung, after hitting a single rib. The last 12-14" of bullet travel before exit was contained by the hide and caused only minor injury prior to exit. The deer traveled approximately 100 yards before collapsing. There may have been additional bone strikes that contributed to the deflection though they were not apparent.

quote:

Any person who has a lot of experience with killing big game stays away from frangible bullets. Ask any good guide or professional hunter and see what they say. If you use them long enough you will have a failure, but of course thats your perogative.

False, The Pro Guides and very experienced hunters are equally split in what works the best. A good guide realizes the importance of shot placement, not what bullet you have.

The Ironic thing about this whole issue is that I can tell you far more stories from my own experiences and from other's I've heard about tough bullets failing than softer bullets failing. That should tell you something.

Bullet failure is 99.9% of the time shooter error not bullet failure. Bullet failure is just a good excuse to blame equipment instead of yourself. If I shot an Elk w/ a 300 RUM loaded w/ 165 NBTs at close range directly in the shoulder that would be 100% my fault due to many issues and not the bullets "failure."

Reloader

quote:

quote:
First, it's virtually impossible for a bullet to deflect at 90 degrees when it hits an animal on a broad side shot



Actually it is not. I've seen more than a few tracers deflect as much as 180*. I also shot a deer some years ago with a 30-30, using a Hornady 150 gr. RN for a lung shot as the deer quartered away from me at about 40 yards. The bullet exited the off side ham without touching the off side lung, after hitting a single rib. The last 12-14" of bullet travel before exit was contained by the hide and caused only minor injury prior to exit. The deer traveled approximately 100 yards before collapsing. There may have been additional bone strikes that contributed to the deflection though they were not apparent.

Come on Dan, you've got to quote the whole line .

This is what I said:

quote:

First, it's virtually impossible for a bullet to deflect at 90 degrees when it hits an animal on a broad side shot especially, w/o touching bone but, you didn't mention whether he was broad side or not?

I don't disagree w/ you a bit, I know bullets can deflect. I've seen them deflect quite badly when shot into dense bones such as head shots of pigs.

It's virtually impossible for them to deflect off of hide and muscle at a 90 degree angle especially, when impact was perpendicular.

Reloader