I agree with Jorge. The 'feel free to gut-shoot' concept is ludicrous. You have to place your shots well no matter what bullet you're shooting. No one has suggested otherwise.

Premium bullets don't make up for poor shot placement, but they DO take up where other bullets leave off in terms of performing well on big animals as well as small, pnching through bone as well as easy lung angles, and under less-than-ideal circumstances. Back in the 1940s, John Nosler developed the Partition for a REASON, and if anyone would bother to read his book, they'd find that those reasons are very similar to why so many modern hunters prefer premium bullets today.

And just so there is a documented point-of-reference to turn to, I'll point this out: A few years ago Craig Boddington interviewed a wide range of North American hunting guides to determine which rifles, scopes, cartridges, bullets, etc., were most popular with the professional hunting fraternity. The Nosler Partition was the overwhelming choice across the board by a resounding margine, a fact that does not surprise me at all. Read Craig's, "American Hunting Rifles", and see for yourself. It's also been the favorite bullet amoung elk hunters over the years, as surveyed by Wayne Van Zwoll for the RMEF, and it's been the number-one soft-point bullet with every single African professional hunter I've ever discussed bullets with.

Bullet selection isn't that complicated, and no, you don't have to perfectly match bullets to every blooming hunt and every sort of animals that you're going after. This practice is a redundant waste of time and an exercise in mental gymnastics. The KISS formula works best every time! Pick the premium bullet that shoots best in your rifle, and go hunting -- for everything from pronghorn to elk, and from bears to African plainsgame. The premiums work best under all conditions and the greatest disparity of big game, while the tin-foil selections do NOT. Big, big difference........

And to this point in this thread NO ONE who has advocated BTs and their ilk have answered this one question: What's the WORST thing that's going to happen if you go with a quality all-around premium bullet instead of a BT, etc.? Nor has anyone bother to answer this question, either: "Why were premium bullets developed to begin with?"

In a lot of ways, I believe this thread was born out of no small amoung of inexperience, and no small amount of stubborn ignorance, and you guys can tar and feather me and run me out of here on a rail for saying so if you want to.

Some guy can shoot whitetails out of a tower stand for twenty years with BTs if he wants to, and without a single failure to report, but the redundancy and limitations for that experience won't prove much. As Jack O'Connor so coyly and truthfully stated many years ago, "Experience can be narrow, though deep"...............

AD

quote:

And to this point in this thread NO ONE who has advocated BTs and their ilk have answered this one question: What's the WORST thing that's going to happen if you go with a quality all-around premium bullet instead of a BT, etc.??

The NBT is more accurate and has a higher BC than the NPart - hence, flatter trajectory and higher retained energy at long range. Also, when shooting at long range, the increased accuracy is valuable. Finally, you don't need a bullet as "tough" as the NPart in North America. The NBT is tough enough, and the NPart may not open-up causing a "arrow-like" wound, rather than a killing wound from the NBT. Thus, where extreme flexibility is needed - hunting the Rocky Mountain West where a long-range shot is very likely - the NBT will outperform the NPart resulting in a clean hit and kill from the NBT and a missed opportunity with the NPart. There - question answered.

quote:

In a lot of ways, I believe this thread was born out of no small amoung of inexperience, and no small amount of stubborn ignorance, and you guys can tar and feather me and run me out of here on a rail for saying so if you want to.

AD, in this repect, you're the first to bring this up, hence you must be thinking of your inexperience and stubborn ignorance - correct?

Allen: AIU's comment about "retained energy at longer ranges" as well as increased accuracy dovetails perfectly into O'Connor's statement. AIU, have you EVER really looked at the difference in downrange energy between the two? My 300 H&H (just to name one rifle) shoots half inch groups...at 200 yards with 180 Partitions. What more could I possibly want than that? Did you READ what Allen said regarding Guides and people with more hunting experience than you'll ever have? To say the NP is not needed for ANY North American game is absurd! Obviously you are not going to let simple things like FACTS get in the way. But then again I should have known better P.O Ackley? give me a break. jorge

jorge, tell us more about those 1/2" groups your shooting with that 300 H&H Magnum using 180 grs. Nosler Partitions at 200 yrds. How many shots in the group? It must be a hunting sporter you're using - correct? And, you have other hunting rifles that shoot as well? Please, tell us more.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
GaryVA, do you have as much experience with a different bullet as you have with the SGK?

AIU,

As far as culling deer is concerned; W/ the .308 M40...no. W/ a M70 30-06...yes. In 30-06 I had good results using 180gr. Core-Lokts and Nosler Partitions. I've had outstanding results using a 350RM w/ 225gr. Nosler Partitions. I've also had good results using a .270Win w/ 150gr. Core-Lokts and Nosler Partitions.

By accident I came across a great combination for my needs in culling deer. In preparation for an upcoming bear hunt, I decided to use a 375H&H bear rifle during my deer culling for that year. My goal was to get maximum trigger time w/ that rifle. What I found was that this rifle shooting my standard 270gr. or 300gr. loads became the best performer of all on whitetail deer. I could take deer regardless of hitting major bone yet it caused the least amount of meat damage. I've shot straight through the shoulder of large deer yet could eat the meat almost to the bullet hole. This cannot be done w/ a .270Win. In addition, a medium sized deer hit through the lungs broadside...goes down quick, and you can still eat the heart. Most of the deer I've taken on the kill permits have been w/ this 375HH for the last several years. It gives me maximum flexibility, performance and edible meat.

If I come across something that works better for me, I'll change.

Gary

For $h!ts and giggles Throw in a Hornady Round nose (gasp!) and compare it to the NP and BT out to 500 yards. It is easy to conclude, so easy that you can do it from the ballistics table of any manual, that this notion of a marginal increase in BC equates to a vast increase in flatness of trajectory is horseapples. From the back of Noslers third edition manual. Starting both a 180 grain NP and BT with an initial velocity of 3000 fps and a 200 yard zero the NP is down 19.1 inches at 400 yards. The BT is down 18.9 inches. At 500 the NP is down 38.5 and the BT 38.1. I bet the Hornady round nose is still within an inch of both. My pet bullet the 200 grain NP is still within 2/10 of an inch of both the 180 grain NP and BT. It is nonsense to beleve that fraction of inch will dictate the outcome of a hunt on an animal the size of an elk. They still look big at 400 yards. Can anyone here hold that steady from a stand? I know I certainly can't on the side of a ridge in the Rocky Mountains. But I will take the known reliability of a Partion and deal with trajectory to the best of my shooting ability rather than second guess the end result of my bullet after the trigger is pulled.

AIU. How do you conclude that the Partition is "too tough of a bullet" for North American game?

quote:

The NBT is tough enough, and the NPart may not open-up causing a "arrow-like" wound, rather than a killing wound from the NBT.

AIU, that is one of the sillier things I've heard in a long while. I can understand your lack of understanding regarding the performance of soft lead bullets used in days gone by, but jeez o'pete man, nothing could be further from the truth than your statement above. Your puttin' a serious dent in your credibility with this thread.

The NPT will expand at very low velocities, possibly as low as the NBT. The jacket on the nose section is quite thin at first and thickens as it progresses to the partition. The nose section alloy is soft, the aft section a fair bit harder. Did you read the info from Nosler that you posted? Have you considered using the Accubond which shares many of the accuracy attributes of the Ballistic Tip, and has a bonded core? Or are you just stirring the pot?

Here's the down range trajectory/energy data for a 180 gr. NBT v. NPT. fired at 3200 fps.

Calculated ballistic data

Muzzle velocity: 3200 fps
Bullet weight: 180 grs
Ballistic coefficient: .507 (NBT)
Altitude: 5000 ft
Temp: 40 °F
Sight height: 1.5 in
Max range: 600 yd
Increment: 100 yd
Zero range: 300 yd

Range/Velocity/Energy/Trajectory/Total drop/Flight time

000 yd 3200 fps 4092 ft.lbs -1.5 in -0.00 in 0 sec
100 yd 3030 fps 3668 ft.lbs 2.94 in -1.76 in 0.096 sec
200 yd 2866 fps 3283 ft.lbs 3.61 in -7.29 in 0.198 sec
300 yd 2708 fps 2931 ft.lbs 0.00 in -17.09 in 0.306 sec
400 yd 2556 fps 2611 ft.lbs -8.33 in -31.63 in 0.42 sec
500 yd 2408 fps 2318 ft.lbs -21.88 in -51.38 in 0.54 sec
600 yd 2266 fps 2052 ft.lbs -41.57 in -77.26 in 0.669 sec

Calculated ballistic data

Muzzle velocity: 3200 fps
Bullet weight: 180 grs
Ballistic coefficient: .474 (NPT)
Altitude: 5000 ft
Temp: 40 °F
Sight height: 1.5 in
Max range: 600 yd
Increment: 100 yd
Zero range: 300 yd

000 yd 3200 fps 4092 ft.lbs -1.5 in -0.00 in 0 sec
100 yd 3018 fps 3640 ft.lbs 2.99 in -1.76 in 0.096 sec
200 yd 2844 fps 3232 ft.lbs 3.67 in -7.33 in 0.199 sec
300 yd 2676 fps 2862 ft.lbs 0.00 in -17.24 in 0.308 sec
400 yd 2514 fps 2526 ft.lbs -8.47 in -31.96 in 0.423 sec
500 yd 2358 fps 2223 ft.lbs -22.39 in -52.13 in 0.546 sec
600 yd 2208 fps 1948 ft.lbs -42.75 in -78.73 in 0.678 sec

I haven't been able to duplicate the accuracy of NBTs with Accubonds or NPTs. Accuracy of SGKs = NBTs. Admittedly, not a significant difference in performance, but accuracy and failure-to-expand differences remain significant in my hands. MAXIMUM ACCURACY is especially important to me. I haven't used Accubonds on game, but NPTs have been used by my family - and the experience is that they don't expand sufficiently and the animals often run off, requiring serious tracking to eventually find.

Look, guys, we can argue this issue until we're all blue-in-the-face, but you're not going to change my mind (I like NBTs and they've worked wonderfully for me - why should I change), and I'm not going to change your mind (you like NPTs and the like). To each his own. Happy shooting/reloading/hunting, AIU

Ackley, yeah, I'm sure you're one of the most experienced hunters on AR alright, and I'm sure that everyone is in agreement on that point, and sees that reality very clearly, but I'm going to argue with you some more anyway....

The way I figure it, if you own a 30-06 Ackley Improved and stoke a 180 gr. Nosler Partition (BC .474) to 2900 fps. and zero for 250 yds., then do the same thing with a 180 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip (BC .507), the BT will drop .8" less at 500 yds., and drift less at the same distance by 1.4".......

Big deal! And we're supposed to trade structural integrity and terminal performance for THAT???????? Pal, you're some kinda theorist alright, but I'm afraid you've got pocket gopher hunting confused with big game hunting.

I've shared some photos (Echols thread on the the Gunsmithing forum) of targets I've fired with Nosler Partitions at 100 yds. that were five-shot groups as small as .350", and a little over .500" at 200 yds. But I know, such accuracy simply isn't good enough, is it?

Oh and, by the way, you still haven't answered my questions. Why?

AD

Pre-64 Model 70. Load consists of 65gr IMR 4350 WW cases CCI350 primers. It's also unusual in that it shoots 200gr Partitions to the same POI up to 200 yards. BTW, I checked the Weatherby ballisitcs table and the difference between the NBTs and the Partition is TWO TENTHS of an inch at 400 yards. TWO TENTHS. Hey I KNOW that we are not going to convince and that's fine by me, only don't try to tell us the NBT is better. Oh here, you go AIU:



jorgehttp://www.lavikinga.com/jorge/target_1.jpg

AIU, you answered your own question concerning BC. IN your own tables you can see you get about an inch flatter traj. & 100ft# energy @ 500yds. Hardly worth the trade off when you have a 90yd tough angle shot on a monster whitetail or mulie or elk, or? Give me a bullet that will do it @ 50-500, from any reasonable angle, it's just not a NBT.

Getting a little spicey in here. I just bought a box of 160 Accubonds for the 7 mag. Hopefully a happy medium.

.

Yea, ol' AD and jorge are beginning to heat up - I can just see the smoke coming out of their ears. I bet both are often guilty of ROAD RAGE, shootin' at cars with their deep penetratin' NPTs. This should be easy with that 300 H&H sporter shootin' 1/2" groups at 200 yds. LOL!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Peakebrook:
It really is not a question about "will it kill," but more of a question of "is there something better."

Would Nosler come out with the Accubond if there was not some evidence that the BT had issues? Or was it simply a marketing issue?

I have experienced some pretty good results with the "premium" bullets, especially the solid copper bullets. Since I handload, I find no reason not to use better quality bullets when I hunt.

Nothing wrong with a ballistic tip... just how it is applied...

All people who have failures, seem to be shooting it at higher velocity.... throttle it down to 2700 fps or less MV, and it will do quite well....

All the Accubond is doing is giving a ballistic tip an even tougher core, for those that are shooting the Ballistic Tips at too high of a velocity...

A slow going ballistic tip frequently will out penetrate a faster velocity partition... And for all the guys that cry no way, any of you ever tested them side by side into media at different velocities....
I did and the results were the exact opposite of what every one says on sites like this....Which drew me to the conclusion a lot of people don't know what they are talking about.. they are just regurgetating what someone else told them....

But at lower velocity, the ballistic tips are some very fine performing bullets.. even in the lighter 22 and 6mm "varmint" ones when their velocity is under 2700 fps...

cheers
seafire

This has been fun and interesting, to say the least! Gentleman thank you kindly.
I am brand new to this AR game. I have hunted with my father who shoots the cheapest damned thing at the local sportin' goods store...and he has a few kills over the years.
I just recently aquired myself a .300Whby I want to kill quickly, humanely and advocate fair chase.
My good friend is going to help me load up some boo-lits, and I am going to do my part to learn all there is to successful reloading, because i am certain there is a marked correaltion to it and a successful hunt.
Since this tends to be a Nosler related thread, everybody break out your Nosler Reloading Guide #4, turn to pages 49-56 & READ!!!!
The last 2 paragraphs say it all. Shoot them like Nosler intended. Enough said.
Personally, I believe a hunt is just that, a hunt. I want my elk within a 100 yds or less. The muzzleloader guys do it, and so do the archery guys. I don't need a bullet that can kill from 1 mile away. I'll hunt Partitions this season.

Alf: It's a great rifle and a great caliber. Mine is actually a pre-war Model 70, having been built in Feb of 41. It's all original. BTW AIU, there's no such thing as a "Sporter" in the Model 70 line. No, don't tell me, you use a bull barrel to hunt game. No closer than 600 yards of course. jorge

quote:

Thus, where extreme flexibility is needed - hunting the Rocky Mountain West where a long-range shot is very likely - the NBT will outperform the NPart resulting in a clean hit and kill from the NBT and a missed opportunity with the NPart. There - question answered.

DING DING DING DING!!!!!!! We have a new leader in the clubhouse for most ignorant statement of the year

Jeff

I think BT's work great if used at speeds below 2700; however, I had one blow up on the shoulder of a big Whitetail from my 7 MM Rem at 40 yds once. He showed no signs of being hit till he died; I was about to hit him again when he fell over. There was a crater on his shoulder with penetration of maybe 2". Bone fragments killed the deer.

A friend was on one of those very expensive desert mule deer hunts several years ago, and shot a huge buck with his 300 Win and a BT. I told him that the Ballistic Tip probably blew up, but he said there was no blood trail at all. He's a big believer in BT's, so he decided his 300 Win wasn't powerful enough and bought a 300 Ultra.

quote:

Originally posted by JD:
A friend was on one of those very expensive desert mule deer hunts several years ago, and shot a huge buck with his 300 Win and a BT. I told him that the Ballistic Tip probably blew up, but he said there was no blood trail at all. He's a big believer in BT's, so he decided his 300 Win wasn't powerful enough and bought a 300 Ultra.

Another candidate for the "Shallow end of the gene pool award!" jorge

PS: JD your observation regarding the 2700 fps limitation on the NBT is one I can agree with. j

The Accubond is likely to blow the BT off the market anyway so you might as well get used to the idea of using a tougher bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Finally, you don't need a bullet as "tough" as the NPart in North America. The NBT is tough enough, and the NPart may not open-up causing a "arrow-like" wound, rather than a killing wound from the NBT.

AIU: That's a good one!

On a recent boar hunt, I watched a sow get hit with a 7mm Rem Mag 160gr NP. Believe me when I say that there was no "arrow-like" wound, despite the less than perfect shot placement. In fact, you could drop a quarter right through it (both sides), and almost a .50 piece:



See an arrow-like wound there? The hog droped dead right on the spot. A NP is too tough? Nonsense.

As for NBT-type bullets, last year my brother watched a young boar run up a hill after he whacked it "Texas-heart shot" style with a ballistic tip/boat tail type bullet. The bullet didn't penetrate very far, and it broke apart. Our guide luckily got around in front of it before it could get away.

I could not imagine using a NBT on angle shots for brown bear or elk.

quote:

And to this point in this thread NO ONE who has advocated BTs and their ilk have answered this one question: What's the WORST thing that's going to happen if you go with a quality all-around premium bullet instead of a BT, etc.? Nor has anyone bother to answer this question, either: "Why were premium bullets developed to begin with?"

Allen, I actually have talked of that countless times on this forum.

First of all, I have never said that Nosler Partions or Tougher bullets were not great bullets. They are great bullets when they are used for what they were designed for, BIG TOUGH GAME. That's why they were invented.

On smaller game they can fail quite miserably. The only failures I've seen on smaller Big Game animals was due to poor expansion of tough bullets when the bullets did'nt strike heavy bones. The tracking jobs were long and hard on those animals and blood was sparse if any. Some animals were lost. The animals that were found had tiny entrance and exit holes hence poor expansion and very little internal damage resulting in long slow deaths. The question of this whole post is what bullets kill the quickest and most humanely. Well, it's common since to know that the more internal damage a bullet inflicts the faster the animal will expire. I can agree w/ you that the Bullet has to make it there to do that damage and when The Big Big Game animals are the Quarry a tougher bullet needs to be used. The construction of the smaller animals doesn't take a tough bullet to get to the boiler room even if shoulders are hit. I would venture to say that Rem Corelocts and Win Power Points have taken more game animals in NA than any other modern bullet in production and they are two of the Softest Bullets Out. I've seen 100s of small big game animals taken w/ Plain Jain bullets and like I said the only failures have been the tough bullets.

I think you can agree that game animals such as Whitetails, Mulies, Pronghorns, Ferral Hogs, and Sheep can easily be taken w/ Plain jain bullets unless you want to shot them in the South end while their facing North and even then those smaller animals would fall to normal cup-n-core bullets. Heck, Millions of them have been taken w/ the plain jain bullets in the past.


You may think I'm Full of Crap and inexperienced because I've only taken Well Over 100 Big Game animals and that may not meet your quota for Experience but, for me, I base my opinions simply on the 100s of accounts that I've experienced w/ my own eyes.

Have a Good One.

Reloader

Reloader: I think had youposted your last from the begginning things might have been different. I have no problems with your last post other than to slightly differ in that even if you are shooting smllaer, thin-skinned light boned animals like deer and pronghorn AND you are using a rifle/caliber above 2700 fps, the NBT is not a wise choice especially if the shot is to be made at close range.

Your Question at the bottom of the page I would change to "WANT" to have trouble tracking while elk hunting?" Get some Ballistic Tips jorge

"On smaller animals they fail miserable"? Oh, there's bound to be a few yokels around here who will believe you, but that hasn't been my experience.

Not on scores and scores of Texas whitetails, many pronghorn, and a vast number of African plainsgame animals that are about the size of a pronghorn or deer. Shoot 'em properly and down they go, and very reliably as well, even with super-tough bullets such as the Fail-Safe. Plus, you're far, far better off with the same bullet on elk, eland, etc. Of course, I live in a major western elk state and have only been hunting these animals for thirty-three years, so what do I know?

The Nosler Partition opens well even with broadside shots on smallish animals, and typically the front core comes apart, materially aiding killing power. You have the best of all worlds in one bullet.

Try again!

AD

Allen,

IF YOU ARE GOING TO QUOTE ME, QUOTE ME CORRECTLY!!!!!!!

I Said:

quote:

On smaller game they can fail quite miserably.

Geeze, You just had to make it sound like you wanted it to.

Have a Good One.

Reloader

Reloader, I did leave out the word "can", and thus I did misquote you.

You have my apology for that !

AD

quote:

they are just regurgetating what someone else told them....

Seafire, with all respect the regurgetation I offered was based on experience.

No Problem Allen. We all make Typos all of the time.

It's so hard to get the meaning behind someones words when their on a dang computer screen anyway.


I don't no about you fella's weather but, It's about 100 degrees here and I'm dredin' the Bush-hogging and trail triming we are going to do at one of our Leases Tomm.


Have a Good One

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:

And to this point in this thread NO ONE who has advocated BTs and their ilk have answered this one question: What's the WORST thing that's going to happen if you go with a quality all-around premium bullet instead of a BT, etc.? Nor has anyone bother to answer this question, either: "Why were premium bullets developed to begin with?"


AD

Good questions and good points. I will answer the questions.

My answer to the first question is a penciled wound channel followed by a wounded/lost animal. Now Im not suggesting that this happens a lot or even with all premiums. But it does happen, which is why it is important to "match the bullet with the game, AND THE VELOCITY".

In no small part, the answer to your second question is addressed in my last three words of the last paragraph. Now I have a question for you, why were "hunting" bullets developed to begin with? Why not just use a tough penetrating solid for everything, which is not far from the logic of some premium/anti-BT advocates, and is also not far from the performance of certian "premium" bullets.

Now if one takes the time and is open minded enough to add all of this up then they might come to the conclusion that the partitions are indeed an "all-around" premium bullet. I would have to agree even though I myself dont use them. But it would also stand to reason that one could use a plethora of different bullets and have just as satisfactory of results, if not better, provided that they were well selected. No??

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
Why not just use a tough penetrating solid for everything, which is not far from the logic of some premium/anti-BT advocates.

Careful with that logic word. You obviously didn't use any of it with that statement.

I think maybe I need a sabatical. How many times must one say that I agree with the "match the bullet to velocity" axiom?

That's my argument PRECISELY and if you use an NBT above 2600-2700 fps you "risk" (this means it's not always the case) bullet failure particularly on elk sized animals and shoulder shots. Using NP, TSX Swift etc AT VELOCITIES ABOVE WHAT I QUOTED reduces that probabilty significantly. Now if all you do is shoot 120lb whitetails out of a tree stand with a rifle caliber/velocity combo as suggested above, the NBT is adequate. Above that, you'll probably ruin a lot of meat, but that doesn't bother me, I usually just donate or give away the venison I take, jeez.jorge

Of course you can use more conventional (i.e., less heavily constructed) bullets with great success and less expense. Winchester, Remington, Hornady, Federal, etc. have been doing it for decades and with great success world wide. But then, what do all those people know?

I have never had a Nosler Partition fail on any game.I have had Winchester Fail Safes not perform admorably on especially Deer but Elk also.I have shot more than one deer with a 180 grain Nolser out of the 300 Win Mag and they all dies and fast.The nice thing about the Nosler Partition is the front core being so soft that it works great on Deer sized animals also but Elk to.

I am pretty particular to the bullets I use and go way back to Silver Tips and the bullets of old and I haven't found to date one that will do what the Partition will from Horseflies to Elephants....

Just as an example the .458 300 grain Nosler Prtocted point opens at 700 fps untill whatever..

I like to eat every bit of the meat I harvest and want no bullet that blows up.

My opinion...Jayco

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
Why not just use a tough penetrating solid for everything, which is not far from the logic of some premium/anti-BT advocates.

Careful with that logic word. You obviously didn't use any of it with that statement.

Not sure what you meant by that remark, I didnt suggest that a solid would seem to suit YOUR theorys, I said "some premium advocates".

Otherwise we seem to be in general agreement reguarding bullet performance and proper selection thereof with the exception of our specific bullet choices in the field.

Jorge,

You seem to like shoulder shots and dont care about the meat. I like lung shots and dont care about RIB meat. But I do like shoulder meat.

This is fine, different strokes. But as such you will usually need a tougher bullet than I. We can get on the the pros and cons of which shot is best in another thread. But what I am also getting at is that using the kind of shots that a guy like myself does, a BT is perfectly adequate for even the tougher animals "provided that it is well selected and accordingly placed".

Im reminded of an article by Barsness reguarding the introduction of the 250 gn 9.3 BT. He used it on plainsgame including Kudu with very satisfactory results. He simply used enough BT and put it in the right place without exceeding the bullets optimum velocity window. I see nothing wrong with this approach unless the ability to take undesirable shots in spite of their downside is of importance to the user.

Wsternhtr: Can't argue with most of that post. I Do care about the meat, I'm just not what one might call a meat hunter.
Where you and I diverge is that you apparently CHOOSE your shots in order to minimize meat loss and bullet fragmentation because you like and use NBTs for example.
I care to give myself a bigger "window of opportunity" if you will, hence, my predilection for Partitions. For example if that bull of a lifetime just gives me say, a quartering away shot, I would feel perfectly comfortable with a raking shot out of my 300 Weatherby and 180 Partitions. Same for a shoulder shot at under 100 yards. With an NBT, I would feel compelled to wait for a full broadside or maybe a head on chest shot and that bull might not be so obliging. Hence, I like a bullet that increases my chances and the NBT is not it. Makes sense? jorge

Jayco, am I misreading or did you say or imply that you had a failsafe fail on a deer? If not I apologies. Not trying to create more problems here.

Works for me Jorge!

Actually the only way I will use a BT for Elk is if Im in the mood to get a little nostalgic and decide to take my Whelen for a stroll through the timber. Otherwise I will use a much tougher bullet.

Happy hunting.

If you boys would hone up on your hunting skills a little more you would not have to worry about those 300 yard-infinity shots you worry so much about. You are talking about hunting bullets and hunting rifles so hunt a little better and you don't have to worry about bullets/smullets. Some of the deadest of dead deer I've killed were taken with a .22 rimfire or .17 rimfire.