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RXM That's very odd, I've had great results with just that bullet and at much lower speeds(longer ranges)  . Did you try the 150 on any other deer?Gabe | |||
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The only two animals I've ever shot with that bullet were that poor little Michigan doe and a very nice Montana whitetail buck. I loaded the Noslers for a Montana deer/elk excursion back in 1997. I was still in Michigan at the time and probably never would have bothered with the partitions otherwise, having had outstanding success with plain old Remington corelokts in several different rifles. Yeah, I thought it was pretty strange, too. But it happened. RXM | |||
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All bullets in a given situation can fail. Some bullets have a greater track record than others, that's when you start looking @ the bullet as suspect. For every NP failuer story there are probably 15-20 NBT stories. In your case, you used a bullet designed for elk & shot a small deer with it. I've used 160grNPs forma 7mag to take a buck antelope. Bullet is definetly in the elk class but bang/flopped the buck w/ a .25c piece exit. I did put the bullet thru the shoulder though & the range was about 120yds. Little blood shot meat & no offroad race for the buck.  LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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This is the diffence between a paper puncher and someone who has a wide variety of hunting experience. Your obviously an accuracy guy. So am I. But to agrue that the NBT is the "best hunting bullet for North America" is so silly. In hunting situations of big game you will get burned eventually. Do all the math you want. | |||
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Fred, There's lots of NPT failure stories as well. I've seen them pencil on several average size whitetails. The NPT is a very fine hunting bullet and works quite well on larger game but, it's simply not needed on smaller big game animals. Anything will work on deer sized game. Reloader | |||
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I have got to agree with you here Gabe. Over 43 years using Nosler Partitions, hundreds of heads of game from little deer up to big bears and never had one fail. The only reason I have quit using them is I found a better bullet. By better I mean one that will penetrate deeper at a lighter weight and is more accurate. Barnes TSX and Banded Solids. Now if for some reason I can’t get the TSX bullets from Barnes then I will go back to Nosler Partitions. Lawdog  | |||
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In my hunting family we have considerable experience with NPTs "penciling" on chest-shot elk - yes ELK! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why this can happen when used on a large deer. If you shoot an elk, deer, antelope, moose, big bear, whatever through the thorax - that is, your typical or average chest shot - the bullet will travel through the following structures: 1. Skin & hair - ~1/2 to 3/4 inches thick (not much and all soft-tissues). 2. Rib cage - 3/4 to 1.5" inches thick (not much). The rib cage is ~50% rib bone and ~50% muscle, and the bullet has about a 50/50 chance of hitting a rib bone or passing clean through hitting muscle only. If the bullet passes between ribs, there's been very little to start expansion - even for a NBT, let alone a solid or semi-solid bullet of some type (i.e., NPT or TSX). Even if the bullet hits a thin frangible rib bone, which are mostly hallow and filled with cancellous bone and marrow, there is little to start bullet expansion - but admittedly more than an inch or two of pure, inter-rib soft tissues. 3. Lungs - lungs are air-filled, friable tissues built much like very soft sponge. - ~80% air - yes, just AIR! Admixed are blood, pulmonary vessels, and elements of the tracheobronchial tree – thankfully, the vessels are there to be torn causing massive internal bleeding. 4. If you’re lucky (especially at long range) you'll hit heart and/or the great vessels entering and exiting the heart and lungs. Again, these are very friable thin-walled organ structures, which when hit, even with a bullet fragment will be devastated. 5. Also, if you're really lucky (again especially when shooting long range) you'll hit the vertebral/spinal column. This is stoutest structure in the thorax, and very vulnerable. If you hit with a bullet fragment -even the size of a 22 rim fire bullet - the animal is going down. It's like a brain shot – that is, the animal is going down from the shock and subsequently from any meningeal bleeding (dural hematoma). The animal is going nowhere, if it can’t move it’s legs. 6. The opposite rib cage - but WHO CARES if you hit the opposite rib cage. You're not going to kill the animal by puncturing the opposite rib cage. If the bullet hasn't done significant damage by the time it hits the opposite rib cage, you’re going to track that animal a long time with possible wastage. Trust me guys, I know what the internal organ structure is of a large mammal, and there isn’t much in the thorax to cause bullet expansion. A bullet that doesn't open up fairly easily can quickly "pencil" an animal shot in the chest – including any sized North American mammal. The effect can be much like being shot with an arrow. Don't get me wrong, arrows and "solid" bullets will kill; but, I want my bullets to open up and expend all that kinetic energy within the thorax. I prize accuracy, and I hit my animals in the chest (where most hunters hit their animals), even at 400 yds. plus ranges. I take pride in not gut-shooting animals. My experience with the NBT is that they're just about ideal for killing North American big-game mammals with chest shots. The NBT is plenty tough enough, yet it will open up and kill quickly and humanely. (NBTs will penetrate bone effectively as well.) I've experienced no bullet failures with the NBT. Animals from the size of prairie dogs to large bull elk drop in their tracks when hit in the "vitals" – miss the vitals and you got problems with any bullet. | |||
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Reloader, the "penciling" of NPs is usually from using a heavy for caliber bullet on a thin skinned animal/rib shot/low impact vel. I saw my son's 1st muley go a fare distance w/ a 180grNP from his 06, thru the ribs. We followed him up & had to put in a finisher. We were on an elk/deer license so were loaded for elk. I would have just put the bullet thru the shoulder instead, but the deer still died, failure, well placed shot & a hard bullet, no. Dropping to a 150gr or 165gr would have probably given a bit better perf., higher impact vel. & more expansion (the shot was about 275yds). I would still hunt elk w/ the 165grNP & might work that up as a dual purpose load. I hate switching ammo in the middle of a hunt. Maybe there are more stories about the NBT because more guys hunt w/ them, since most hunters in the USA are deer hunters.  AIU, I would be very surprised to hear of an honest "penciling" of NP thru an elk's chest.  I've seen the nose wiped off & a caliber entrance & exit, but the heart/lungs turned to jello, showing at least some expansion &/or fragmentation w/ the rear core exiting. But like you said, no one is going to change his or her minds, so hunt w/ what you like, I will.  LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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You know, I, too, have noticed that no one ever seems to change their opinion. Could it be that we're just a bunch of hard-headed old men? (grin) | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by fredj338: Reloader, the "penciling" of NPs is usually from using a heavy for caliber bullet on a thin skinned animal/rib shot/low impact vel. [QUOTE] I believe this is where 95% of the few partition failures happen. [QUOTE] I've seen the nose wiped off & a caliber entrance & exit, but the heart/lungs turned to jello, showing at least some expansion &/or fragmentation w/ the rear core exiting. [QUOTE] This has always been my experience with partitions. However, I never use heavy for caliber partitions only 6.5mm 125's, 140's or 150's in .284 and 150's in .30 cal.. I have used 150's in .270 and 180's in 30 cal. but expansion there has been somewhat balky, but I've NEVER gotten none. Almost all of time when using light for caliber it's been as Fred said, front half gone rear half exits with a hole about the size of a quarter. The critter never goes more than 100 yds. and then with a great blood trail. The chest cavity's contents are like oatmeal. Gabe | |||
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Ligntning, Your comment that "you will eventually get burned using Ballistic tips on big game" could possibly be true if we confine the statement to elk sized game. But I am far from convinced that I will ever experience a true problem with this bullet on whitetale deer. On this thread everyone seems to be mixing and confusing the two. Sure, I sometimes fail to get an exit wound if I hit one of the shoulders or have a substantial angle to deal with but this has never had an adverse affect on the deer dropping to the ground. I also hunt with Sierra and Hornady convential bullets and alway use the one that provides the best accuracy. With my style of hunting accuracy is king and I have great confidence in my ability to properly place the shot. Deer are simply not that difficult to kill. I am not exactly a rookie with somewhere over 200 deer plus other varmits. I have never seen one of the "tin foil" bullet turn to a blue mist and evaporite on the shoulder of a whitetail. I would actually contend that the convential bullets will, on average, give you a guicker kill, and a more accurat load at a more economical price. Sure, I have lost and crippled deer over the years, but I also realize the fault was mine when this happened. This is only my experience. | |||
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After that, we have all changed our mind. We didn't know this sort of extensive knowledge and theory behind the greatness on the NBT. This really should from now on be the only bullet made for North American hunting from this day moving forward. Just Kidding, but.... Man your arguments are amazing sometimes. From this thread to your Alaska hunting thread to others. It's really not what you say, your opinion is valid, it's that you really come across that you know so much more than everyone here. Use the BT's if you want, but just to make such finite broadstoke statements ("Best North American bullet") and then try to prove it in manner you do. You really come off wrong to some. Granted, your not trying to appease everyone, but go back and read some of your responses. It's really amazing sometimes. Best of luck to you, I hope you never have bullet failure and take all the game your heart desires. More than that I hope you can take diffent points of view. | |||
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I couldn't agree with you more, I don't think this is what AIU is saying. Unless I am wrong, he is trying to prove the greatness of the NBT on all game. Let's exclude proghorn, whitetail, ect. But to say that it's best on elk,moose,bear,caribou. I think it will get you burned sooner or later. My real point is why take the f.ing chance. Accuracy on a Moose? If we wanted you and I both could hit a moose in the vitals at 500. But would I take that chance? No. I don't equate shooting prairie dogs at 800 yds with moose hunting as it relates to accuracy. I love accuracy. But when I pay $10,000 to go moose hunting, I am not going to shoot at 500 and I am not going to take the chance of bullet failure on an animal of this size to slightly improve accuracy. I am going to get within 300 yrds (hopefully closer) and kill the animal with a well placed shot with a premium bullet to give myself the BEST CHANCE of good penetration and a swift kill. Can things still go wrong. Of course. But it's just like poker, you put as many of the odds as possible in your favor. In hunting we try to increase our odds with a good area, good equipment, good outfitter, ect. AIU's agrument is like when a friend tried to argue with me that he would rather have AK as his starting cards than 2 Aces. Man, just look at the odds. Can the Aces be beat, sure. But I will take them every single hand and see how I do in the long run. Good hunting shoot what you would like. The best thing AUI said on this thread is "To each his own." I agree with this wholeheartly. | |||
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Lightning, this thread topic is not meant to be personal. Please, don't take my comments so personally - they're not intended to make anybody think I know more, but when it comes to anatomy, if you knew what I did for a living, you'd likely accept me as having expert knowledge of internal organ structure and what makes large critters die. In any event, take in the comments and observations, think a bit about the reality of animal anatomy, extract the hyperbole of manufacturer advertisements and writers selling articles to gun rags, and then match them with your own real-life experiences and oberservations, especially the experience of cleaning a big game animal. Indeed, next time you gut your deer, elk, or whatever, look carefully at the lungs. At the gutting stage they're collapsed and much denser than they are while air-expanded inside the thorax. During life ~80% of the contents of the thoracic cavity is AIR inside the lungs. Get on the internet, GOOGLE up a normal chest X-ray, and notice all the "black" meaning AIR and nothing (no density or H20) to stop the X-rays. Ask yourself, does air cause bullets to expand? - NO! Even collapsed lungs have the consistency of a porous sponge. How much is lung tissue going to cause your bullet to open up? - essentially hardy any at all. The expansion of any bullet passing through the chest is essentially dependent upon the thin (frangible) rib cage. Even the shoulder muscles and bones are not that dense when compared to the hind quarters or spinal structures. I once shot two large bull caribou just behind the shoulders at ~75 yds. with 180 gr. NBTs, both shot from a 300 WM with velocities ~3250 fps. They both went down and were dead on contact with the ground. Neither moved once. One's spinal column was turned into "hamburger." It looked like someone had taken a chainsaw to the ~400# bull just behind the shoulder. I've always been open-mouthed impressed with how fast big-game animals drop dead, after being hit one time with a 165-180 gr. NBTs just behind the shoulder. I once killed a buck deer (8-point Eastern count) with a 165 NBT at 140 yds. (~3200 fps at the muzzle). He dropped dead in its tracks and still had the grass he was eating sticking from his mouth - he didn't live long enough to even open his mouth and let the grass drop out. That's a instantaneous HUMANE death, and that's how I want to harvest my game - NO suffering. | |||
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If you like'em, I love'em. Keep shootin' them.  Just not for me on animals like caribou. | |||
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I went out today to shoot a 30-06 A-bolt I sold to work up a load for the new owner. I loaded several 180 NBTs and some 180 HDY SPILs (He said he'd be hunting whitetails at less than 200 yards so, trajectory was nil). Getting to the point, one of the NBTs launched at roughly 2700 MV hit the target at 120, traveled through the card board box, traveled through a small sapling then, traveled completely through a 5" diameter hardwood tree exiting w/ a hole about the size of a dime. I guess the point to that little episode this evening is that that bullet would have most likely passed though any animal on this continent. The NBT is a fine bullet when used at proper weights w/ proper impact speeds as are many other bullets on the market today. Even though that NBT did so well penetrating the brush, I decided to go w/ the HDYs simply because they shot sub MOA at 120 yards and at distances less than 200 the trajectory of the two is almost identicle. I think threads like this often get alittle silly. The fact is that normal bullets will work fine on NA game and they've done so for many many years and will continue to do so in the future. There's nothing wrong w/ using a premium bullet. I have no problems w/ those that do but, I personally have witnessed too many failures w/ them on smaller game so, I choose not to use them on those type of animals. The premiums where designed to be used on bigger big game animals and for that, they work splendidly. Sure, No One has changed their minds but, Hey, if we all agreed on every issue, these forums would be quite boring. You fellas are welcome in my house any day .Have a Good One Reloader | |||
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I have killed 8 elk and 2 moose with the 180gr ballistic tip out of my 300ultramags.I have only recovered one of the bullets and that one passed through both shoulders of an elk and lodged against the hide.Even so,this year I am switching to the 180gr tsx.It is nearly as accurate ,fouls no more than the ballistic tips and does give me the confidence to take shots that I would pass on(and have passed on in the past) with the ballistic tips.The ballistic tips have not failed on me,but the tsx's just add a lttle insurance for some shot angles. | |||
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I agree. No doubt there are many good bullets on the market today, and all would be (and have been) effective when properly used. But the quality I like most about the NBTs is they are so accurate in my guns - often equivalent to match-grade bullets. I can't get anything to shoot as well (maybe it's a mental thing with me). I've tried Swift Sciroccos, SSTs, Interbonds, Accubonds, NPTs, TSXs, LRBs, etc. The only bullet that is as accurate and consistent is the Sierra GK, but that polymer tip doesn't ding-up in the magazine. I like the polymer tip. I wish Sierra would develop a line of upper caliber polymer tip bullets; I'd try them, because they'd likely be very good bullets. The word amoung those in the "industry" is that Sierra has a tremendous quality control program, possibly the best within the industry. I like their Blitz King varmint bullets. I will admit though, I'm trying the LRBs - they have VERY, VERY SEXY BCs. Of the "solids" out there the LRBs have the edge in may opinion (but very expensive at over $2.00 per bullet). | |||
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Yep, that's pretty much what I had to say about it when I mentioned it before. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting What Bullet Kills Quickly and Humanely?
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