quote:

Originally posted by MontMike:
Jayco, am I misreading or did you say or imply that you had a failsafe fail on a deer? If not I apologies. Not trying to create more problems here.

Mike-I suppose it didn't fail and ofcourse there was no bullet recovery,but it just cut a very small hole in and about the same out on a pretty nice Buck that had to bleed out and all down hill in some nasty country.Didn't appear to have any shock factor at all..Two days later a good bull and a good shot.He bucked like a buckin bronk and took off down hill ofcourse into one heck of a mess.Same thing.A pencil type hole in and out without any apparent shock/trauma or whatever.

That was several years ago when they first came out,but I want nothing to do wwith them ever again.The Nosler works just fine and I ain't changin for beans.

The NP has always done great for me and like most.I thought I would try the new bullets out..Dang..If it ain't broke don't fix it.Them Elk quarters get heavy packin them just to where you can get the horses.

Jayco

quote:

Originally posted by one-ORIFICE:
. Some of the deadest of dead deer I've killed were taken with a .22 rimfire or .17 rimfire.

Sorry, I couldn't resist the poetic license after THAT profundity! jorge

So, basically, it worked too good. No expansion. One of my biggest contentions, is that here in the west most of our shots tend to be quite long. If that is the case then pretty much any bullet will work out to say 300 yards. I shoot a 7 mag, and at 50 yards it's too close for most bullets, but how often do we really get those shots? That's my only gripe. I'm by no means knocking pemiums as I use them myself, but I do think that many hunters have started to use them as a way to make up for their own misgivings. Of course that's not the case with all, but just maybe a few.

I really don't consider the Nosler Partition a Premium anymore compared to the super premiums meant to hold together no matter what.The Nosler Partition works for me on close or long as the front is soft and does expand even at 50 yards if you don't go overboard and think you need 200 grainers like I thought one year to try out.Not good on Deer at 2930 fps at 50 yards while the 180 at standard velocities did well.

To much hype in my opinion on speed and super premiums,sometimes not the case.My 200's will be in the closet for a while unless I go to Alaska or something.The 180's do it all or atleast have for me..Like you probably know,Its the shits to pick out a bullet for both Deer and Elk on the same hunt,but the Nosler is about as close as I have seen for both out of my .300 and .270.

Jayco

OK so, some one display some of their knowledge for me. (Especially you AD or Jorge...& any other NP proponent)
I want a humane (as possible) kill. I'm going to be shooting a .300 Weatherby, I want to shoot Partitions. I am going to be elk hunting this season in the Colorado Rky Mtns.
I prefer to get in close, hopefully 100 yds or better. But reality says that I might be taking a farther shot.

I am in the process of loading my own, which will perform better 180's or 200's?

Cheers!

In my experience, the 180gr is all the bullet you'll need in a 300 Weatherby. Id on't think you'll get a definitive answer so I would pick the one your rifle shoots best. jorge

Thank you George--I will take that as a compliment. I have always been a one-orifice kind of guy. I no longer use any boat-tail for hunting as I have experienced jacket seperation. Nor do I use any ballistic tip. For what you guys are hunting I'm not sure you even need a "Premium" bullet. Flat base Hornady hunting bullets should do just fine. Your BT's at high velocity=shorter ranges often fail to deliver what is expected. However, if the bullet is placed properly it's going to die. Once again Jorge its not magic to make something die. All you really need to kill something is a decent bullet, a good shooter, and proper shot placement. You don't need Premium.

I cant whine about speer hotcors,but a certain big elan bull I know of can...I was told on this forum and others that the 458 speer hotcor 350gr wouldnt hold together at the 2800+ my lott drove it..Well as the big bull stood to run at the 90 yd +or- he turned diagonal. I dropped it in behind his right rear rib and smashed out his front left shoulder(Thats two honkin big bones on an elan).An 1 1/2" wound trac the whole way..Through him face first into the dirt like he was a submarine and just got the dive alarm. Didnt touch a singal vital...The shock was more than he could bare

One-holer:That you can kill an aniaml with just about any bullet is not in doubt here, especially whitetails. All I'm saying (for about the hundreth time) is that a premium gives you more opportunities to take your trophy from less than optimum angles. Your 22 and 17 caliber comments were irresposible and not funny if that was your intention. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jaycocreek:
I really don't consider the Nosler Partition a Premium anymore compared to the super premiums meant to hold together no matter what.The Nosler Partition works for me on close or long as the front is soft and does expand even at 50 yards if you don't go overboard and think you need 200 grainers like I thought one year to try out.Not good on Deer at 2930 fps at 50 yards while the 180 at standard velocities did well.
Jayco

I agree with this.....I, too, don't consider the Nosler Partition a premium bullet. It's always bothered me that the core of the front partition is shed in the trauma channel. I use the Swift A-Frame as a premium bullet instead as the front partition is bonded and the bullet retains its weight for deeper penetration.....and penetration is the key word here.....yes it must mushroom as well but they all do it seems.

When it comes to deer and pronghorns the premium bullet is a waste of time and money.....any bullet will do. Premium bullets are of value in larger game such as Kudu or Elk etc.

In my .300 H&H I've been using 200 grain A-Frames with excellent success and I suspect 180 grain bullets would also do the job as well. However when it comes to the Nosler Partition there's one thing that cannot be denied.....more people swear by them than any other bullet. This forum is crawling with folks saying good things about Nosler partitions and while I don't use them I've never said anything bad about them except for the shedding of the front cores.....they still work and again and again and the question "at what point dressing out the animal did you discover the bullet failed?" is a very hard to argue with question.

While I'm sticking with the A-Frames I must admit that the proponents of the Nosler Partition out number me by an incredibly wide margin. That many folks can't all be wrong.

The front core design of the Nosler Partition, which often comes apart, materially aids killing power (those fragments have to go SOMEPLACE!), and is an ingenious design feature. In no way is it detrimental to performance, and NO, it doesn't need to be updated or improved. In fact, this design not only aids killing power, but it helps the rest of the bullet to penetrate FURTHER than some other bullets with bonded jackets.

John Nosler had it right to begin with, and you can bet your sweet bippy that the Partition is a true premium bullet -- in fact, as far as performance goes it's more 'premium' than many of the super-premiums. I have a box full of recovered Partitions, from all sizes of game up to 2000 lbs. in weight. EVERY ONE of those bullets was found under the hide on the opposite side, and the majority of Partitions I've fired at animals have gone clear through and were not recovered. I have NEVER had a penetration problem with these bullets (.277 thru .338) -- only first-class performance. If anything, Paritions have put animals down faster than have most of the "supers" I've used.

But as usual, guys get all hung up on statistics. Percentage of retained weight doesn't tell nearly enough of the story to paint a realistic performance picture.

Sometimes less is indeed more........

AD

I am going to agree with Allen.
If you use a lot of Nosler Partitions, in many different calibers, you come to realize that it is sort of a Super Duper Bullet.
The front is soft, so it expands at long range, if it impacts at high velocity up close the front will fragment, leaving a flat nosed solid to continue into the vitals.
With the Nosler Partiton you have the best of all worlds. It is the expanding bullet with the widest operating envelope.

Allen Day and N E 450 No2, while we seem to disagree on why we are not disagreeing on what.....I concurr...the Nosler partition works and it's performance record is all that need to be examined as proof.

vapodog
Make no mistake I like the Swift A Frame, and the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. They are excellent bullets, as are the Woodleigh Softs [and Solids for that matter]. I have used them all.

quote:

I suppose it didn't fail and ofcourse there was no bullet recovery,but it just cut a very small hole in and about the same out on a pretty nice Buck that had to bleed out

If a bullet not expanding as it passes through a deer like that isn't an example of a bullet failure, then neither is a bullet that explodes on impact when it hits a rib. That "Failsafe" did just what a cheap FMJ bullet that you can buy from Sierra would have done.

Ifr you want a quick death, look at X bullets.

I have been astounded by how well they kill.

And Partiitions work great, too.

~~~~~~~~~~JANE...YOU IGNORANT SLUT!~~~~~~~~~~

That's how Dan Aykroyd ended a debate with Jane Curtain decades ago on Saturday Night Live.

This thread is almost at that point because of closed minds.
Sure, some NPT's have penciled in and out somewhere, sometime. And some NBT's have exploded on the skin and not penetrated enuff somewhere, sometime. And I'm pretty damn sure no one is going to change their bullet type or hunting style from this thread.

The correct answer to this topic question, mentioned many pages ago, is the bullet that penetrates the vital organs to cause a quick death to the CNS.

However, given the choice by my gunsmith, Bobby Hart, who has taken many more species in more different terrain than I have, I chose the Barnes X over the Nosler BT even after he showed me holes clean through a half inch thick steel plate, put there at 100 yards by NBT's fired from his 30 Hart rifle. They act like a cherry bomb going off inside 'em, is the way he explained it. Pretty convincing evidence backed by a living room full of trophies. But my PH said to bring 'premium' ammo for plains game in Namibia. I chose Barnes X flat base bullets. They outperformed my expectations by a factor of 10. I had no pencil-throughs. A 225 gr .338 @ 2600fps zippered a steenbuck from stern to stem. That antelope is tiny, like a red fox. An 85 gr .257 @ 3200 fps zippered a hyrax nothing short of 'red mist.' They are like a groundhog without a tail. Both shots were at about 100 yards. But they also dropped springbok in their tracks at 300+ yards and kudu at 225 yards.

Those solid copper hollow points really opened my eyes but I don't expect everyone reading this thread to run right out and buy them. As a matter-of-fact I couldn't care less if no one here bought them, just as long as Randy and Coni Brooks keeps making them for me!

I'm surprised that none of the out-west-shooting-elite haven't stepped into this fray claiming the Sierra Matchking kills quickest and most humane. But then again, there's not much difference between NBT's and SMK's.

I too have been amazed how well the Barnes X bullets perform. I've shot darn near everything with them, from coyotes to elk and have always been happy with the performance. For those of you who have never given them I try I highly reccommend them.

I know for some of you it's like "I'm only a Ford guy! or Chevy guy, or Partition Guy, or Sierra Guy!" Heck, it is only a box of bullets!

In all honesty, I would put Barnes up against anything and feel confident about it.

MG

This is a fascinating discussion. I especially like the part where everyone takes their penis out to see who has the biggest one.

Any projectile, from a round lead ball to a round nosed solid, can fail to give you the results you want. Each one has its strengths and its limitations. Our job is to make our choice and adapt to the limitations. If that means passing up a shot or NOT trying to break shoulders, that's the price we pay.

Anyone who tells you that some wonder bullet is the BEST choice in ANY possible situation is selling something, even if it's just their own opinion.

I've had a NPT fail to expand AT ALL on a 15-yard broadside hit on a 100-pound whitetail doe. It was a 150 grain from a .270 Win, probably at about 2800 fps but I can't be sure because I never chronographed that load. It took a follow-up shot to put her away. If she hadn't been the first deer past my stand on fresh snow, it would have been a pretty miserable tracking job because there was zero blood for the first 80 yards or so. Does this mean that NPTs SUCK? No, it means that it was the wrong choice for my hunting conditions.

Similarly, if I jack a NBT up to 3200 fps or aim for the point of the shoulder and the bullet blows up, that just means it was the wrong choice for that shot.

I'm working up a load for my girlfriend's .270 using 130-grain NBTs right now. She weighs about a buck-oh-three and is a little sensitive about recoil. I'm shooting for (no pun intended) about 2600 fps muzzle velocity. I figure it should work fine, especially if she picks her shots well. I won't be using NBTs in my .270, by the way.

I don't know why people figure that their choice should be everyone else's choice, too. We pick our bullets for our own reasons and adapt. Seems simple enough to me.

RXM

Jorge point well taken. It has been my experience at the range with the 7Mags,300 Win.Mag and .338's that quite often the "premium" bullets you tout so highly print some of the worst groups. Elk hunters seem to be a favorite target of mine. My point is that you guys don't need premium bullets, $1500-3500 dollar optics,or custom rifles with 24-30" barrels to kill an Elk. The bumper on my Ford pickup sure as hell isn't "premium" and it kills elk just fine if I hit them correctly. If I make a piss poor hit they limp off the road on three legs back into the woods. Much like you guys and your 600 yard shots. As for my favoite elk rifle--a 25-06 with 120's. It drops them right on their face. I use the .338 for coyotes. Jorge--I really do like you guys, you pump a lot of needed money into the shooting sport that helps us all. Oh, and I guess the reason you would shoot your elk in the shoulder is so you will have less meat to pack out?

I suppose it's kinda AR-Forum fun batting around this topic, but it's clear nothing much will change people's minds. It's like fisherman and their favorate line or baits - that is, if they have confidence in their idiosyncratic tastes in line and baits they're likely to catch more fish, than if they're forced to use some other equipment. To each his own, because all the various modern bullets work well, when aimed properly with the correct caliber and load. There are many correct guns, bullets, calibers, and loads.

Happy/Safe Shooting/Hunting - AIU

Ackley Improved. You've got that right. Jorge what I should have done was start a new thread and not interferred with yours. My view and opinions are very clouded and one sided because of my experiences with "the elk hunters" at the range. Day after day after day I see the same thing and its disturbing. Hunters who are extremely over-gunned who are happy when they hit a paper plate off the bench at 100 yards. They don't wish to put in the proper shoulder time because their big guns kick the hell out of them. Jorge, really the point I was trying to make was that the majority of elk hunters that I have met at the range couldn't hit an elk size target past 200 yards--so it just wouldn't matter what bullet they used. And as Ackley said--I'm singing to the choir. I don't need any hate mail as I realize I'm in the minority here. Guys happy hunting this year and the best of luck. If anyone is interested I've got some good slightly used Ford bumpers for sale if anyone is interested.

One holer: well I guess I must be lucky becasue some of the most accurate three shot groups I've ever accomplished have been with Partitions, A Frames and now Triple Shocks. The furthest I've ever shot at anything was a measured 354 yards, I would never even contemplate a shot at 600, so where you got that idea is beyond me. AS to your broad-brushed generalization of "elk hunters you know that can't hit an elk past 200 yards", that is in direct conflict with the people I associate with.

I don't care how many elk you've taken with a 120gr 25/06, (and I'm sure it's a Sierra or an NBT) but it's not the optimum bullet caliber combo for such an animal that big, but I'm sure you pride yourself in your tracking prowess. Finally, the reason I aim for the shoulder on just about any game I take is it offers me the highest probability of anchoring the animal and I really don't care if I ruin meat in the process, I'm primarily a trophy hunter and secondly I always have somebody to pack out the meat for so it's inconsequential to me. jorge

I would like second the statement about the accuracy of the so called "premium" bullets. It has been my experience that the nosler Partion has a great nack for turning my 1/2 in. groups into 2.0 in. Preforming rifles. That is just not acceptable with me. I realize that accuracy is of little importance to many of the posters on this forum, but for thoes of us that hunt deer from stands that provide 300 to 500 yd. shots frequently, the partion just does not have a place. It seems to me that even on stands that offer only modest range, you might be called upon to place a shot close between trees, limbs or brush and the highest degree of confidence in your rifle is a large asset that would always trump a stout bullet on deer sized game. For elk you could always just move up to a heavier bullet to keep the performance without going to the inaccurate premiums. Just my opinion.

B18, FWIW, I've never had a NP shoot anything close to 2" groups from any rifle I own, can't say that for the mighty 'X' bullets. In fact, several loads I have are MORE accurate w/ the NP than the NBT. Every rifle is diff. & if the rifle is capable of MOA accrucay, I'll bet you can get a NP to shoot close to that.

B1878,

My observations mirror your comments. My experience with NPTs and Lost River Ballistic J36s is that they don't shoot as accurately as SGKs or NBTs - or, at least, they're harder to get shooting as accurately. Also, NBTs and SGKs in my hands have also been more accurate than conventional Speer and Hornady bullets.

I shoot 55 gr. NBTs in my 22BR and 6mmBR, which are both competition BR rifles, and they consistently produce 0.20" 5-shot groups at 100 yds. Using custom match grade Berger BR bullets, I'll improve those groups to circa 0.15-0.18" 5-shot groups. This is amazing accuracy for inexpensive varmint/hunting bullets. I should try some of Nosler’s match grade bullets.

Moreover, NPTs and LRB J36s are more erratic in velocity variation and apparent PSIs, especially with full-bore hunting loads. Stiff (“premiumâ€) bullets are a bit touchy to load. Hence, I've a tendency not to load them to the same performance levels as the NBTs or SGKs. This tends to detract from their "supposed or reported" improved game-killing performance, especially beyond 300 yds, where I frequently kill big game.

I insistent on 1.0 MOA performance for my big game hunting, and 1.0 MOA performance is quite possible (even easy to obtain) with NBTs and SGKs. I usually use SGKs to work-up a load, but hunt with the NBTs – I find both bullets quite comparable in their loading/pressure/velocity characteristics. I use 115 gr NBTs for antelope and Coues deer, 165 gr. NBTs for mule deer, and 180 gr. NBTs for elk/caribou/moose. I haven’t lost one yet, but all had been hit in the thorax and/or spine.

Safe/happy shooting/hunting - AIU

quote:

Originally posted by B1878:
I would like second the statement about the accuracy of the so called "premium" bullets. It has been my experience that the nosler Partion has a great nack for turning my 1/2 in. groups into 2.0 in.

After using Nosler Partitions for over 40 years and trying Nosler's Ballistic Tips I found that while the Ballistic Tips did, in many calibers, give a very slight edge in accuracy over Partitions it was never enough for me to stop using the Partition due to the added advantage the Partitions gave(holds together at higher velocities and gives deeper penetration). I have never had a Partition give that bad of accuracy as you report. Lawdog

Jorge:
Good answer. You are correct about your "broad brush" statement. On this forum if you broad brush or go the other way and get too specific you are going to get hammered. I'm a meat hunter. We leave the big ones alone and save the racks for the tourists. No, I am not much of a tracker. I learned long ago if you lose your game animal all you have to do is look for the camera man. Walk toward the camera man and your animal will be there dead and propped up for a photo op.

I'm not bright enough to fathom you answer regarding teh cameraman as I've never seen one in the wild so I'll let it go at that. Your "meat hunter" comment does explain the use of 17 and 22 calibers to hunt though. Didn't know you could use those calibers. jorge

Post title
WHY NOSLERS KILL QUICKLY AND HUMANELY

I've noticed that Nosler Paritions work for "meat hunting" as well as trophy hunting.....

AD

Yes the Nosler Partitions, GrandSlams, are all very effective killers and are easy on the meat.
Jorge: You can use any damn thing you have available at the time that will get the job done. You can also use knives like those crazy ass guys from Argentina--doesn't mean I'm going to though.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:

quote:

And to this point in this thread NO ONE who has advocated BTs and their ilk have answered this one question: What's the WORST thing that's going to happen if you go with a quality all-around premium bullet instead of a BT, etc.??

The NBT is more accurate and has a higher BC than the NPart - hence, flatter trajectory and higher retained energy at long range. Also, when shooting at long range, the increased accuracy is valuable. Finally, you don't need a bullet as "tough" as the NPart in North America. The NBT is tough enough, and the NPart may not open-up causing a "arrow-like" wound, rather than a killing wound from the NBT. Thus, where extreme flexibility is needed - hunting the Rocky Mountain West where a long-range shot is very likely - the NBT will outperform the NPart resulting in a clean hit and kill from the NBT and a missed opportunity with the NPart. There - question answered.

quote:

In a lot of ways, I believe this thread was born out of no small amoung of inexperience, and no small amount of stubborn ignorance, and you guys can tar and feather me and run me out of here on a rail for saying so if you want to.

AD, in this repect, you're the first to bring this up, hence you must be thinking of your inexperience and stubborn ignorance - correct?

With all due respect, the trajectory difference between a partition and Btip, in the field, under field condidtions.............is nil.


You say a partition may not open up.........OK, well, any bullet can have a manuf flaw. Perhaps the BT will disintegrate?

The absolute worst thing that can happen if you use a more expensive bullet instead of Nosler Ballistic Tips is that you will spend more money. Fifty NBT .30 cal bullets in 180 grain will cost you $11.99 at Cabelas. Fifty Nosler Partition 180 grain bullets will cost you a whopping $21.99. Just think! Those Partition bullets are twice as expensive.

Now, let's compare the cost of the bullets to the cost of airfare to Wyoming plus the cost of a guided hunt in Wyoming with a typical outfitter for elk. In most cases, you will be spending more than $4000 on the trip. So, now tell me how important it is to save ten bucks on a cheaper bullet that MIGHT not work as well and MIGHT result in the loss of a wounded animal? Seems penny wise and pound foolish to me.

quote:

Originally posted by patrkyhntr:
The absolute worst thing that can happen if you use a more expensive bullet instead of Nosler Ballistic Tips is that you will spend more money.

This would be true ONLY if partitions never failed in any way to perform as advertised, which isn't the case.

(Edited to correct typo)

RXM

Since Partition bullets fail, and since Ballistic tip bullets also fail, your point is moot. If we are talking about using the two for big and tough game, the probability of bullet "failure" is much higher for the more lightly constructed ballistic tip bullet than it is for the partition bullet, especially at the higher velocities found in magnum calibers. So, I ask again. If you are spending several thousand bucks on an elk hunt, which of the two bullets would you use? The one more likely to fail? Since the difference in price is so small, one would have to be brain damaged (IMO) to think the ballistic tip is the better choice.

Now, having said the above, I would like to state for the record that I seldom use either bullet and have not had a "failure" with either. If I am going bear hunting, I usually use Speer Grand Slam bullets in my .30-06, Barnes X or Trophy Bonded bullets in my .300 Weatherby, or Swift A-frames in my 7mm Rem. Mag. They shoot well in the respective guns, and I have taken a bunch of game on several continents with the three rifles with no instances of bullet "failure."

In my limited experience as a hunter, most cases of bullet failure were actually due to poor shot placement. I'm done beating this dead horsie. Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has at least one.

quote:

Originally posted by patrkyhntr:
Since Partition bullets fail, and since Ballistic tip bullets also fail, your point is moot.

I disagree completely that the point is moot. What needs to clearly understood is that the nosler partition is not the be-all, end-all, absolutely failure-proof hunting bullet that some people around here make it out to be.

As I said someplace around here before, all bullets have their plusses and minuses - you make the choice and then you live with it. There is no "best bullet for all possible hunting situations."

That said, if I were hunting elk, I would choose partitions OR some other strongly constructed bullet that would give me the penetration I want.

RXM

quote:

Originally posted by rxmoore:

What needs to clearly understood is that the nosler partition is not the be-all, end-all, absolutely failure-proof hunting bullet that some people around here make it out to be.

RXM

By that I assume you have had failures with the Partition? As a long time user of same, I have not. I would appreciate it if you would share these failures with us.

BTW, I'm not mocking your experience, just curious.

Gabe

quote:

Originally posted by papaschmud:

quote:

Originally posted by rxmoore:

What needs to clearly understood is that the nosler partition is not the be-all, end-all, absolutely failure-proof hunting bullet that some people around here make it out to be.

RXM

By that I assume you have had failures with the Partition? As a long time user of same, I have not. I would appreciate it if you would share these failures with us.

BTW, I'm not mocking your experience, just curious.

Gabe

Fifteen yard broadside at a 100 pound whitetail doe. Zero expansion, no blood trail for a considerable distance. She was alive when I found her after following her after tracking her through fresh snow. The bullet was a 150-gr NPT out of a .270 Win., probably with a MV around 2,800 fps.

I concluded at that time, and still believe, that the bullet was just too heavily constructed for the use to which I was putting it. It certainly doesn't mean that I will never use partitions again.

On the only other whitetail I ever fired an NPT at, the bullet performed very well.

RXM

This THREAD is amazing - it keeps going on-and-on. Has anybody changed their minds? - NO! And nobody will. Stange but true.