I knew when I saw it that this would be a shit show. These guys have been shooting pen raised animals before and I knew this buck was a penned deer when they posted this picture. They have denied doing this in the past but the cats out of the bag....



Well, oops.....



If your gonna do this then do it and be honest about it. IMO it's a glaring omission when they leave out the words "estate" and/or "SCI" when they say it's a potential world record. It's not a lie but it's leaving out pertinent details that leads people to believe that it may be something other than what it is. That is what disgusts me more than anything else.

I have had booking agents call me appalled at what's going on because they were told this operation never hunted pen raised/pen fed pets. This just leaves a bad taste in my mouth

Really great looking buck, really sad at the minimum that folks can not openly admit the circumstances surrounding the killing of such an animal.

Guess that's what happens when hunting becomes a competition sport.

Wonder what the price of that puppy was.

Drum - We talked about this one a week ago! You know my opinion on high-fence deer/elk hunting, I have NO problem with it. I don't choose to do it myself, but I'm not bothered if others do. However, I do have a real problem with this, when one is lead to believe its a "WILD" deer. First off, as guides/outfitters here in the U.S. and Mexico as you and I are - this sort of thing makes our job twice as tough. Its hard to compete with outfitters who pawn 226" muleys off as "WILD" deer, when we're hoping to find 180" plus bucks for our clients, that truly are WILD!!!

Its not much different than the CANNED LION hunting in SA. I have zero problem with it, except for all the TV shows lately who have failed to say what it really is, but instead tell the viewing public what a hard/adventurous/dangerous "HUNT" it was.

Just be honest, period! I can't see how anyone would ever trust this outfitter again? Not in Mexico anyway!

one solution is to leave the hunters name out of the book - oh my -crushed ego

So

does this dis-credit Wade Lemon and all of his "hunts"

I wouldn't know the guy from anyone....but it does stink

I agree that what a man does with his $$$$ is his business and support that
but when a raised animamal is billed as wild and a hunter feels they hunted said animal
I lose all respect for the entire mess but if it's SCI it's an estate world record

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
I knew when I saw it that this would be a shit show. These guys have been shooting pen raised animals before and I knew this buck was a penned deer when they posted this picture. They have denied doing this in the past but the cats out of the bag....



Well, oops.....



If your gonna do this then do it and be honest about it. IMO it's a glaring omission when they leave out the words "estate" and/or "SCI" when they say it's a potential world record. It's not a lie but it's leaving out pertinent details that leads people to believe that it may be something other than what it is. That is what disgusts me more than anything else.

I have had booking agents call me appalled at what's going on because they were told this operation never hunted pen raised/pen fed pets. This just leaves a bad taste in my mouth

Is that lower right pic a Mexican Wrestling deer???

I agree with Aaron, if it is a high fence deer, fine. Just represent it as so. Don't try and say it is anything else... especially if using it to market a hunt to unsuspecting hunters. That could be construed as fraud.

What the Hell is up with that lower right picture??

the lower right picture shows the same deer with a mask to keep him quiet after being sedated. that's when he was measured, then released. absolute bullshit. strike Wade Lemmon of the list of people i would ever hunt with. you can still see the blood on the upper points where the velvet was stripped off.

Damn, just when you think you've seen everything some other shit happens. I knew as soon as I saw that bottom right photo that this whole thing was a scam and major fraud.

I have known Wade for many years . I have done many hunts with him
.

On my last hunt with them, I was offered a massive mule deer in Mexico that was to be the new #1. If I recall, they wanted $60,000 for the deer. No where was high fenced mentioned. I thought nothing about it as I had never been on a hunt with them involving a high fence.

It never occurred to me that this could be a high fence deer offered to me. I would imagine it is the same deer.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have known Wade for many years . I have done many hunts with him
.

On my last hunt with them, I was offered a massive mule deer in Mexico that was to be the new #1. If I recall, they wanted $60,000 for the deer. No where was high fenced mentioned. I thought nothing about it as I had never been on a hunt with them involving a high fence.

It never occurred to me that this could be a high fence deer offered to me. I would imagine it is the same deer.

This is most likely the same deer although there are others in the same pens. I have pictures of a buck they have advertised with that had a tag in his ear. Fucking pathetic that they wouldn't disclose this information but it's not surprising as they have denied shooting penned animals until this came out.

There is a lot to this and I am in Mexico hunting until the 26th but when I get back I'll tell y'all how this sucks in more ways than them just misleading people about it.

Just reread your post, if it was the "new #1" that you were offered then this was it. What a fucking joke. They obviously knew what it would score as I'm sure the Mexicans taped it when it was drugged up. Not hard to believe they didn't disclose it was a penned pet as that's been their MO

doesn't surprise me one bit.
sad really.

Nice work exposing this crap Drum, and good luck on your hunts down there. I know you do it right, but the intentions, lying, and egos of some hunters and outfitters never cease to amaze me. Remember the "hunter" last year, posing with that great MX buck on other forums, that you just so happened to have pics of his buck eating out of a protein feeder, with high fences in the background? Absolutely pathetic.

I realize that DSC has, essentially, awards for natural/ free-ranged animals as well as canned animals....but the whole thing, IMO, just makes B&C appear more genuine and real ( even with their strange " deduction" measuring process - - as if an animal in its naturally- developed state of antler growth isn't " good enough"). Don't yet know enough about Rowland & Ward to commment.

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have known Wade for many years . I have done many hunts with him
.

On my last hunt with them, I was offered a massive mule deer in Mexico that was to be the new #1. If I recall, they wanted $60,000 for the deer. No where was high fenced mentioned. I thought nothing about it as I had never been on a hunt with them involving a high fence.

It never occurred to me that this could be a high fence deer offered to me. I would imagine it is the same deer.

This is most likely the same deer although there are others in the same pens. I have pictures of a buck they have advertised with that had a tag in his ear. Fucking pathetic that they wouldn't disclose this information but it's not surprising as they have denied shooting penned animals until this came out.

There is a lot to this and I am in Mexico hunting until the 26th but when I get back I'll tell y'all how this sucks in more ways than them just misleading people about it.

$60k for a Deer in Mexico? Ya, I would say they were pretty darn sure what it scored, and confident of the success. I would love to hear the hunter's version of the story. Was this one released just prior to his arrival, and in this case he thought it was "Wild"?

I too returned from a hunt in Sonora for Desert Sheep, just a few weeks ago. I've hunted/guided in Sonora several times over the years, but its obvious the "high fence" hunting/raising of game is becoming more and more frequent down there. Now that's NOT to say that a lot of wild/free range hunting is not still done, it is of course, but the other is certainly more main stream than it was 10 years ago.

I hunted damn hard for my free range/wild ram, only seeing a handful of rams over a week's time - and mostly at long distances. The sheep were few/far between, so we really needed more good sheep footage if possible. After the hunt, we drove the 5 hours back to Hermosillo and met up with another outfitter friend who has a big ranch close to town. He runs wild/free range deer hunts, but also has a 600 acre enclosure for desert sheep and coues deer, and other pens where he raises/sells muleys too. It was a perfect place to get some much needed "B" role, of desert sheep. While there he told us about a "safari outfitter" who recently shot one of his high fence rams (191" as I recall) and is claiming it as a WILD RAM for foreign awards purposes, etc?? But guys, in this case there's NO WAY this hunter or others could be "duped" into thinking they are hunting a wild ram. The 10' tall fence that circles the 600 acre mountain is kind of a dead giveaway!!!!! Not to mention the tower he sat in, and watched the ram approach the feeder at afternoon feeding time - could have been a clue as well. These hunters in most cases are just as complicit as the outfitter, don't think otherwise.

My outfitter and friend, Luis Romero and I also planned to hunt mule deer after the sheep hunt, if we had time. Just prior to my departure, Luis send me a short video clip of a giant muley - through a spotting scope. He was easily 230", if not better. But Luis made it very clear to me, that we would need time to try and find/hunt this deer, and getting him was in no way a guarantee! With only 2 - 3 days left to hunt, after my sheep was down - Luis decided against trying for the big muley. He said we simply didn't have time in his opinion to re-locate/hunt the big buck. Obviously if it was a pen-raised/released animal, that would not have been much of a concern. I could have shot a 190" high-fence buck at the 2nd ranch - but what for? The ranch owner also offered to let me hunt for 2 days on the big/wild ranch, but told me that no one yet had spent alot of time looking for muleys - so he was uncertain what was there, or what I might see? We chose to come home early.

Bottom line, there are good wild/free range hunts to be had in Sonora - Drummond runs some of the best. And so does my outfitter - Luis Romero. But the BS of these 180" plus mainland/wild rams, and the muleys like the one shot here - then announced as a WILD buck, are just crap! I don't care if you shoot a 300" mule deer, and 200" ram in a high-fence, its your money/time - who am I to say different. But just tell it like it is, especially if you are the outfitter!!!!

I wonder if those guys in the pic know what this does once it gets out of the hunting community and is viewed by the wider public...

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
I wonder if those guys in the pic know what this does once it gets out of the hunting community and is viewed by the wider public...

The publicity probably won't hurt them financially at all. There is a market for this type of crap and now people know who to call.

I don't care about them. I was thinking of our sport. The old game itself. That I've enjoyed for six decades now.

I've read this thread with interest. Apparently WLH is saying at least that they do not shoot penned animals. This is puzzling as Wade told me a few years ago in no uncertain terms that he offered both free range plus high fenced mule deer hunting in Sonora. I've actually never booked anything for Wade but he's always seemed very up front about what he could do.

Mark

I am not shocked,dismayed or even give a shit.People now a day make such a big deal about what an animal scores more than about the satisfaction of The Hunt.Most hunters now if dropped into a wilderness area would not have the knowledge to actually kill wild game.So truth is hunting now is just a dick wagging contest.Look mine is bigger!!!Makes me wanna puke!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I've read this thread with interest. Apparently WLH is saying at least that they do not shoot penned animals. This is puzzling as Wade told me a few years ago in no uncertain terms that he offered both free range plus high fenced mule deer hunting in Sonora. I've actually never booked anything for Wade but he's always seemed very up front about what he could do.

Mark

Mark - See Larry Shores post above.

$60K for a deer would be enough to pay my mortgage for about 3 years! I'll stick with my DIY mule deer hunts here in Colorado and whitetail hunts in Oklahoma!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I've read this thread with interest. Apparently WLH is saying at least that they do not shoot penned animals. This is puzzling as Wade told me a few years ago in no uncertain terms that he offered both free range plus high fenced mule deer hunting in Sonora. I've actually never booked anything for Wade but he's always seemed very up front about what he could do.

Mark

I had a booking agent in camp last year and he sent a few hunters to the Lemons and they killed big deer. I asked if they were penned deer and he said that the Lemons don't hunt high fences. Another booking agent that sends hunter to them called me the other day just appalled that they shot a penned deer, they never told the booking agent that they engaged in this activity and I have had numerous people in the industry tell me in the past 2 weeks that some of Lemons guides swore to him that they never did this.

Again, my issue is the lack of transparency here. If you're going to do this you better tell potential hunters the whole deal and once you've killed it you better not try to mislead people. If the Lemons are honest with themselves they'll understand why people are pissed

Drummond.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to cast doubt on what you wrote at all. I'm just relaying what information I rec'd straight from the horse's mouth or Wade Lemon in this case.

Mark

WOW!!!
W.

Gee, I opened up this thread hoping to see some horn porn and instead I feel sick to my stomach. Kind of like opening up a Playboy and finding out Hillary is the centerfold

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
Gee, I opened up this thread hoping to see some horn porn and instead I feel sick to my stomach. Kind of like opening up a Playboy and finding out Hillary is the centerfold

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHH!!!!!!

What a POS! Are they booking through Jeff Blair? They sound like a perfect match.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
$60K for a deer would be enough to pay my mortgage for about 3 years! I'll stick with my DIY mule deer hunts here in Colorado and whitetail hunts in Oklahoma!

60K would buy my house outright in 1995 (when I bought it) with 5K to spare

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
I am not shocked,dismayed or even give a shit.People now a day make such a big deal about what an animal scores more than about the satisfaction of The Hunt.Most hunters now if dropped into a wilderness area would not have the knowledge to actually kill wild game.So truth is hunting now is just a dick wagging contest.Look mine is bigger!!!Makes me wanna puke!!!!

Why do you think all the emphasis is on "look how far away I shot him". Most of the dumb sob's wouldn't begin to know how to stalk and most are afraid to get out of sight of the truck.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
What a POS! Are they booking through Jeff Blair? They sound like a perfect match.

Let me defend Wade a little bit. I have probably known him over 20 years. During that time I have hunted the following with him:

Pronghorn
black bear
elk (twice)
mule deer
desert big horn
CA big horn
prairie dogs ( 2 or 3 times)
mountain lion (twice)

He has always been honest. He has done EXACTLY what he said he would do. The only problems I have had were weather related. There were no surprises. I can absolutely guarantee you that there was no chance any of these hunts involved high fences or pen raised animals.

I know several people who have hunted with him extensively as well. All have the same opinion as I have.

I would have to disagree with him being a perfect match with Jeff Blair.

Is this the same deer offered to me? I have no idea.

Is this deer a pen raised deer? I have no idea. Based on what Drummond posted, I imagine it is. How did he sell this to the client? I have no idea. If it is pen raised and that was not disclosed, then it is wrong. I have a problem with that.

Make no mistake, these are GREAT hunters. They put in a lot of effort into their big game hunts.

Would I go with him again? ABSOLUTELY!

quote:

Make no mistake, these are GREAT hunters. They put in a lot of effort into their big game hunts.

Would I go with him again? ABSOLUTELY!

***There is absolutely no question that the drugged deer with the cover over it's head is the same dead buck in the picture after it had it's velvet stripped off. It's hard to believe anybody, especially one like yourself with animals taken from all over the world, would not immediately know that something is not on the up and up if they asked you if you wanted to pay $60K for a new world record deer. The price alone should alert anyone that something is not kosher with an offer like that! To say you would go anywhere with them after this absolute fraud is exposed says more than anything you can offer in their defense and is really unbelievable!!! I wonder how big the pen was where this buck was shot and then declared "pending world record". What a GD farce and it says a lot about a person who says they would continue hunting with an outfit that would perpertrate a fraud like that and probably have done the same with other animals in the past the way it sounds!!! How they put up the tag line under the photo is what is upsettig averyone and not the manner in which they sold it to the client!!! The client didn't put that photo up to make a big deal out of it. WLH did and if they did that one it is one too many!!!

I was not looking for a mule deer. They offered it to me. I didn't give it a lot of thought as I was not interested. I did ask how they could be sure they could get it. As I recall, they said they knew the home range. I didn't think much about it at the time.

As far as the price tag, yes it is astronomical. There are lots of places in the world where the fee is based upon size. For example most of Europe or elephants with Johan Calitz in Botswana.

I haven't seen what he told the client nor has anyone here. He may or may not have told the client this was pen raised. As I said before, if he didn't tell him, I have a problem with that. It is a pretty far stretch to call this a fraud with no idea what the client was told. It is POTENTIALLY a fraud. It is also possible that the client knew full well what the story was on the deer. None of us know what the client was told about the deer.

I still believe in being innocent until proven guilty. If Wade is guilty of misrepresenting this hunt, then he deserves what he gets.

I am thankful for this thread. I can put a black "X" through Wade's Lemons and move on.

I would like to point out that ethically challenged outfitters, selling penned farm animals, reflects more on the piss poor quality of us hunters than on themselves. They are simply supplying a need. They could not get away with this without the hunters turning a blind eye or openly agreeing to the farce.

Larry S. I'm frankly surprised at your posts. Unless this a complete fraud of a post created to smear WLH, I guess I need to brush up on my evaluation of fellow AR members. No way in hell this was a once in a career move by Hunt Lemons. Do they sell pen raised Prairie Dogs too? Disgusting.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I was not looking for a mule deer. They offered it to me. I didn't give it a lot of thought as I was not interested. I did ask how they could be sure they could get it. As I recall, they said they knew the home range. I didn't think much about it at the time.

As far as the price tag, yes it is astronomical. There are lots of places in the world where the fee is based upon size. For example most of Europe or elephants with Johan Calitz in Botswana.

I haven't seen what he told the client nor has anyone here. He may or may not have told the client this was pen raised. As I said before, if he didn't tell him, I have a problem with that. It is a pretty far stretch to call this a fraud with no idea what the client was told. It is POTENTIALLY a fraud. It is also possible that the client knew full well what the story was on the deer. None of us know what the client was told about the deer.

I still believe in being innocent until proven guilty. If Wade is guilty of misrepresenting this hunt, then he deserves what he gets.

BS! Yep, they certainly knew the deer's home range when they talked to you, LOL!!! However, that's not what the main problem is here. It's the fact that the Outfitter, WLH, has posted his name up on that photo and is declaring it as a pending world record like it was a fair chase free ranging animal. I could give a shit what they told the guy who killed it, but I would have to say he probably knew what the hell was going on if they told him what they told you. Again, they have certainly committed fraud on the public with that photo and we have no idea if they committed fraud againtst the hunter too, as it doesn't sound like anyone has interrogated him about the kill. Your defense of them when what you stated is not even what the main thing we are talkng about is pathetic and trying to get around the real issue here!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
What a POS! Are they booking through Jeff Blair? They sound like a perfect match.

Let me defend Wade a little bit. I have probably known him over 20 years. During that time I have hunted the following with him:

Pronghorn
black bear
elk (twice)
mule deer
desert big horn
CA big horn
prairie dogs ( 2 or 3 times)
mountain lion (twice)

He has always been honest. He has done EXACTLY what he said he would do. The only problems I have had were weather related. There were no surprises. I can absolutely guarantee you that there was no chance any of these hunts involved high fences or pen raised animals.

I know several people who have hunted with him extensively as well. All have the same opinion as I have.

I would have to disagree with him being a perfect match with Jeff Blair.

Is this the same deer offered to me? I have no idea.

Is this deer a pen raised deer? I have no idea. Based on what Drummond posted, I imagine it is. How did he sell this to the client? I have no idea. If it is pen raised and that was not disclosed, then it is wrong. I have a problem with that.

Make no mistake, these are GREAT hunters. They put in a lot of effort into their big game hunts.

Would I go with him again? ABSOLUTELY!

I guess I'm having trouble reconciling the above and below posts.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have known Wade for many years . I have done many hunts with him
.

On my last hunt with them, I was offered a massive mule deer in Mexico that was to be the new #1. If I recall, they wanted $60,000 for the deer. No where was high fenced mentioned. I thought nothing about it as I had never been on a hunt with them involving a high fence.

It never occurred to me that this could be a high fence deer offered to me. I would imagine it is the same deer.