Just to make it easy to compare

In broad general terms, I have no problem with high fences. Some are more sporting than others. I cannot conceive how anyone would want to shoot something inside a 10 acre pen.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
In broad general terms, I have no problem with high fences. Some are more sporting than others. I cannot conceive how anyone would want to shoot something inside a 10 acre pen.

Larry, I am not positive that they shot that deer in a 10 acre pen. The deer I photographed were in 10 acre pens.

From what I've been told they move the deer to a larger pen on another ranch and I've been told it's anywhere from 800-1200 acres but this isn't fact, just what I've been told. It won't be hard to find out and I can do so with one phone call

Here I am still with a muledeer spot or two to fill this fall, true wilderness hunting on horseback and I have to compete with guys like this. It sure chaps my ass.
Old Wade is starting to look like Obama with a major Bengazi cover up in the works.

Drummond stated: Edit to add that I was gone most of the month and don't know if I got the point across to TopGun that I find it ridiculous to call out Larry Shores in any way, shape or form. Trying to compare his AI sheep hunt to these pen raised shoots make me want to puke.

The AI sheep hunt provides much needed funds for a nursery herd in Utah whereas shooting these pen raised bucks does nothing but let a couple blowhards feel like they really did something and try to pass it off as some sort of "best in the world" accomplishment without telling the full story. I have no problem if they want to kill pen raised bucks but I have a serious problem when they advertise it without full disclosure. My issue is with the Lemons and the Lemons only. The bullshit they are pulling makes my blood boil


***I was not "calling out" Larry and comparing in any way, shape, or form the AI sheep hunt he did to this pen raised crap! I know his Auction tag money is supposed to go for a good cause if it gets used for what they say. What I was referring to was when he made the comment on a thread about the other animals on the island, specifically Bison, as less than a fair chase type hunt while saying how tough his sheep hunt was climbing that mountain. The hunt he went on took one day because the sheep are on a small part of that island and everyone knows where they are. IMHO that is not a tough hunt, but damn near a gimme, and as far as I know we are allowed to express our opinions on these threads just like you're doing on this one! Fair enough if anyone else doesn't agree with me, but I did get a number of PMs agreeing with my assessment of that "hunt"! ANYONE with the money to pay for that auction hunt could have done the same thing and that's all I'm saying. Good for Larry to have the cash to bid on stuff like that, but it's not my cup of tea! I am aware of the other hunts he's done all over the world since he put up a list back at me earlier, so more power to him for being able to do so when they're just in most of our dreams!

The only problem I have/had with Larry on this thread is that he disagreed with you, Aaron, me and all the others that think the picture of the buck that says "pending world record" is a misrepresentation of what is really going on. I would hope now that you have come back with all the pictures and evidence to back up what you have said and with what we have agreed with changes his mind on this situation no matter how many good hunts he's been on with Lemon!!! I put those two pictures in your OP up on another website and started a thread about it and it's now had about 1700 views and not one person has posted a comment that they thought it wasn't misrepresenting the hunt! Therefore, it looks like the vast majority of people being made aware of it are in your camp on this and if Lemon keeps on doing what he's doing I hope people such as yourself keep "outing" him for his dishonesty!

PS: Maybe you should start a quick alert type post on this shady shit Lemon is doing and we can keep it right near the top of this Forum just like we're doing with Blair and his dirty outfit!

quote:

Originally posted by chilcotin hillbilly:
Here I am still with a muledeer spot or two to fill this fall, true wilderness hunting on horseback and I have to compete with guys like this. It sure chaps my ass.
Old Wade is starting to look like Obama with a major Bengazi cover up in the works.

Exactly! Guys that have low fence, fair chase, free range hunts cannot compete with guys that kill a handful of pen raised freaks every year that don't disclose that they are pen raised. People tend to believe what they want to believe and when you look at the website they talk about bringing deer in and keeping them year round, they just don't tell you it's with the help of a fence.

As I've stated before, if you're going to do it at least have the moral fiber to be honest about it

Drummond:

Is this kind of thing legal in Mexico?

Before this, I had never heard of high fence hunts in Mexico. Obviously, they do exist.

I do not have a problem with the one picture. It does seem to be an accurate description. I haven't looked at the FB things yet but I will.

On my computer, my first thought is that there was a fence in that picture. However, after studying it a while, I tend to think what I am seeing is caused by the camera.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Drummond:

Is this kind of thing legal in Mexico?

Before this, I had never heard of high fence hunts in Mexico. Obviously, they do exist.

I do not have a problem with the one picture. It does seem to be an accurate description. I haven't looked at the FB things yet but I will.

On my computer, my first thought is that there was a fence in that picture. However, after studying it a while, I tend to think what I am seeing is caused by the camera.

Yes, these hunts are legal in Mexico. I have never questioned the legality or even the morality of these hunts. I have absolutely called into question the lack of full disclosure by every operator that does not tell the full story when selling these hunts or when advertising the animals they've killed.

The screen shot of the video does NOT show a fence. There is a fence in the photograph that I took and its blurry because I was actually taking that picture through the fence. The deer were in the corner of the pen. Its the best picture had to show that it was the same deer and showed the pen at the same time

People can try to defend this type of utter bullshit but at the end of the day its still bullshit. These clowns won't even own it, according to one of their clients they place the blame on an employee but only after the shit hits the fan. If nobody would have brought it up they would have run with it.

They had every opportunity to tell you about the fence when you asked, they list all the reasons they kill big deer on their website EXCEPT the fence and they advertise killing a world record deer and not disclose that it was SCI and a penned animal and at the end of the day they blame an employee for it all?

Do you have a problem with the video they posted? Standing around and acting surprised and happy that the buck they killed was a "world record" like they didn't know the score beforehand and using pen raised, protein fed animals to promote their business without letting the potential clients know the truth? I am curious like a cat because maybe I am the one doing it wrong. I wouldn't fucking dream of ever pulling a stunt like that.

I haven't looked at the video. Busy day here but I will look this week.

How can a client do a high fence hunt and not know it? The client had to know. At some point, they drove through the gate.

How do they get deer that big? Do they use drugs to accomplish this or is it purely genetics?

I have a 7,500 acre lease that is ALL high fenced. This is the thickest nastiest terrain you can imagine. It is not at all easy. Hell, I have not even seen a shooter in some years despite the fact that I know they are there. The owner has introduced genetically superior deer in an attempt to increase the quality of the bucks taken. Have the Mexican done this or is it through the use of drugs?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:


How can a client do a high fence hunt and not know it? The client had to know. At some point, they drove through the gate.

How do they get deer that big? Do they use drugs to accomplish this or is it purely genetics?

I have a 7,500 acre lease that is ALL high fenced. This is the thickest nastiest terrain you can imagine. It is not at all easy. Hell, I have not even seen a shooter in some years despite the fact that I know they are there. The owner has introduced genetically superior deer in an attempt to increase the quality of the bucks taken. Have the Mexican done this or is it through the use of drugs?

Its genetics and protein Larry.

Its obvious that the guys that kill the deer in the high fenced areas know what they're doing. However, when you also sell low fenced hunts and do not differentiate which animals are low fenced and which animals are penned then you are misleading potential clients. You understand what I am saying?

A guy that is looking for a free range hunt would watch that video and look at their website and not know that they are looking at pen raised animals. I would say that they wouldn't know unless they asked the Lemons but its now obvious that they might not even get the real answer then either.

Look, if you don't understand why guys like me are pissed at guys like them then you will never get it and you're just going to keep asking questions like "is it legal" and I don't have time for that just like you don't have time to watch the video. I like you Larry, I think you are a great guy and I'd share a campfire with you anytime but if you don't yet understand why a lot of people are fucking pissed about this kind of shit then you'll never get it and we should just quit wasting each others time as it pertains to this issue

Drummond:

I am asking questions for my own information not as it relates to what Wade did or didn't do. The entire subject of high fenced hunts in Mexico is news to me. I am trying to learn.

I do know that Wade got some inquiries at DSC that he was not expecting.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I haven't looked at the video. Busy day here but I will look this week.

How can a client do a high fence hunt and not know it? The client had to know. At some point, they drove through the gate.

How do they get deer that big? Do they use drugs to accomplish this or is it purely genetics?

I have a 7,500 acre lease that is ALL high fenced. This is the thickest nastiest terrain you can imagine. It is not at all easy. Hell, I have not even seen a shooter in some years despite the fact that I know they are there. The owner has introduced genetically superior deer in an attempt to increase the quality of the bucks taken. Have the Mexican done this or is it through the use of drugs?

They don't know because these dishonest outfitters grow these super bucks in a pen, capture them (just as the pic Drum posted earlier of the drugged/hooded buck), take them out to a low fenced place, and let the guy shoot it. No offense, but for a guy who has a high fenced lease, and hunts all over the freaking place, you ask some strange questions.

I finally got around to watching the video. I could hardly understand what they were saying at the end but they did say something about #1. They were clearly congratulating the client. It was clearly not a surprise to be the new #1 based upon what they told me. The exact score may have differed from the estimates.

I have to agree that this type of thing should not be used to market hunts as fair chase even though they do offer many fair chase hunt in the US. I can surely see why this bothers you.

Again, some of my questions today have been for my own information. I have another. Until recently, I had no idea that some of these sheep hunts in Mexico were high fenced. I may be wrong but I think Aaron posted something about that. I am not sure but I know I read that somewhere. My question is whether these sheep hunts on the video were high fenced? Also, how prevalent are the high fenced sheep hunts down there?

Honestly, Mexico scares the hell out of me. I doubt I will ever go back. If I do, it will likely be for sheep or turkeys. I would rather whack a big whitetail than a big muley all day long. That is me, others may think differently.

I imagine Wade will get many questions at SCI as well he should.

Larry

I'm not interested in sheep. I'm not interested in Mexico. Yet I was well aware of the Canned deer and sheep hunts in Mexico. Knowing how little effort I put in to keeping up with hunting practices here and there, I am surprised you were caught unaware. I guess it could happen to anyone then.

Put and take "free range" hunting is nothing new. Maybe it exists in part because hunters tend to pull together when they should call bullshit? Maybe it exists because hunters are easily tricked? Maybe it is simply a marketing short cut to build up or stay competitive in the guided hunt world. Obviously its existance reflects badly on hunters when viewed by many voters.

Navaluk:

Mexico has never been high on my list of hunting priorities. Perhaps I didn't pay enough attention.

The post here about the big deer was the first I had ever heard of high fence hunting in Mexico. The Hunting Report ran an article recently which I posted here. This was all new to me.

The only high fence sheep hunting I ever heard of was in Montana. It is hard for me to get excited about a place where you can get a grand slam in a day.

I hope the guy who shot this deer didn't do it in 10 acres.

I have changed my opinion over the years. The record book causes a lot of problems. No doubt this deer was shot for the record book. Just look at the current SCI debacle. He wants to restore all of the awards he lost. Personally, I could give a fuck about the awards.

Larry I realize nobody can keep up with all the goings on in hunting. I think that hunting would last longer if we did not have people funding this type of fenced or put and take hunting. Valuing the animal based on how many people it impresses is poison in my view. That being said, we have to deal with the way the world is.
With any competition animal whether it's Mule deer or WT or any sheep, there is always going to be a risk of having a free range hunt that is actually a put and take hunt, especially on any private land hunt. That's just the way hunting is today. For the outfitters it's easy to see how the big money is in these competition hunters and so they can earn a better name with only a few "salted" hunts with the right client who wants to publicize the animal and his or her individual hunting greatness.

Sucks but that's the way it is.

No doubt that shenanigans have happened world wide on all sorts of critters. Read the stories world wide for a while. Some of it is shocking. You ever her the story of the frozen leopards? Absolutely unbelievable that it occurred.

The record book, the inner circle and all that BS are massive problems. They cause a lot of this behavior. Probably 20 years ago, we saw a (then) SCI big wig fly into a farm on a helicopter to execute (not hunt) a top 10 something or another. That is simply not for me.

Would I like to shoot a deer that big? Of course, who wouldn't? Would I want to do it the way it was done? Absolutely not!

We certainly have more than out fair share of high fence operations here in the US. Every time I see one of those nasty knobby white tails with more points that I can count on a ad somewhere, I get disgusted. Again, some high fences can be sporting. Others are nothing short of executions.

I realize some are bothered by the initial picture. Personally, I wasn't. Perhaps it was because I have seen many similar (as to format and writing) pictures over the years. Apparently, it is the pending #1 for estate deer. The video on the other hand is disappointing. I am disappointed in these people who I have had great faith in. I have had many absolutely fair chase hunts with them. I guess I had better ask all outfitters from now on.

Like it or not, high fences are here to stay and not just in this country.

It all got started when a few groups elevated hunting, especially for deer, white tail deer more specifically, to a competitive(?) Sport(?).

Capitalism at its finest. A demand was created for huge antlered bucks and good old American ingenuity figured out a way to meet that demand.

Now it has moved on to Mule Deer and Elk and in some ways Bighorn Sheep. If someone/anyone can figure out a consistent method for providing a commodity that is highly coveted, people will take advantage of it, even though the procurement of that "Trophy" is not done in a manner that adheres to the concept of Fair Chase.

For some individuals in todays world personal notoriety means more than ethical practices. JMO.