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Lhook7---I think Larry S. has dug a hole for himself that he isn't going to be able to get out of! | |||
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Admirable to believe in "innocent until proven guilty". I agree. Hell I even believe Boddington is innocent in the hole Banteng mess, since he hasn't been "found guilty". I imagine WLH will say that its a pending world record in the 4H record book kept by SCI. | |||
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You really feel comfortable saying this? There's been accusations made and no rebuttal or informed differing opinion offered and you make this kind of condemnation? This thread is hours old and you write off how many folks? I don't know Larry, Wade, or the Mexican Wrestling match deer in question, but I find your remarks more disparaging for you than anyone else. | |||
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Absolutely. It is frigging ridiculous for the couple of uninformed idiots above to make judgments about Mr. Shores INFORMED decisions about who he chooses to use as a guide. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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A Happy New Year to you Gato! Gotta go eat some prime rib, have a good evening! | |||
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Welcome Gato, it looks like there are three uninformed idiots on the thread now. Please show me where I made any judgement about Larry Shores. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Gentlemen: I have read this thread again. I can see something that I didn't really notice before. It seems that some of you are more upset over the picture and what it says (or doesn't say) than you are over what may have been sold to the client. Personally, I am more concerned with what may have been sold to the client. I am bothered a whole lot more about some client THINKING he just killed a new #1 deer in a fair chase manner when it may not have been. Did that happen? I have no idea. As I said before, if Wade misrepresented this to the client, that is a problem, a BIG problem. He deserves what he gets for that. Having hunted with the guy so many times over so many years, I would be surprised if that happened. I have been surprised in life before. I hope Wade would not do that. If he did, it would definitely impact my decision of where to hunt in the future. While we do know what the picture says, not a one of us know what the client was told. That is my entire message in my posts, pure and simple. I imagine that Wade will be at DSC. That is the perfect opportunity to ask him. If not, he is always at SCI. Good evening gentlemen. | |||
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And a Happy New Year to you as well. Coincidentally our family just finished a dinner of black eyed peas, turnip greens, sweet potatoes, bone in prime rib roast, and chocolate mousse. All done by my wonderful wife. The greens and peas are a Southern tradition for luck and money for the New Year. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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At least you know you're an uninformed idiot. And a Happy New Year to you as well. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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in GA. the tradition is black eyed peas and hog jowls for New Years dinner- just FYI Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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We had the jowls in with the peas, forgot to mention it. That's what happens when you're an uninformed idiot.  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Just a little clarification here, but at any point were any claims made about the animal in question being recognized as a Boone & Crockett trophy animal? I understand the implications of misrepresenting the hunt, but from what little I know of SCI, this animal does qualify for their awards program. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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that's the way we cook 'em too. 1 big pot with peas and jowls. and yes, we do throw in a batch of turnip greens( cooked separate with bacon/fatback for seasoning) if we can get 'em. damn, i may have to go hit the leftovers! Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Part of the problem I have, and it's a big part, it the omission of details from the Lemons. Larry, you say there was no mention of high fences when it was offered to you yet this was a fenced animal. That is a huge misrepresentation IMO. They damn sure knew the "home range" as it wasn't very big The other issue I have is the "pending world record" statement. By omitting SCI from the statement it leads people to believe its something other than what it is. I'm sure the hunter knew what he was doing before the trigger was pulled but I guess I could be wrong. I am not knocking him in any way shape or form, he can hunt however he likes. My issue is with the Lemons sales and marketing practices. It's actually quite sad | |||
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I am with Larry on this one. A lot of people are doing a lot of assuming about what happened. The only thing we can be certain of is that the masked deer and the "record" deer are one in the same. Lets wait to hear what Wade says in a face to face. If I see him at SCI I am going to be asking about it. If this was not represented as a penned hunt, Wade should, at all costs be avoided, by us. As he would be a fraud. If the hunters don't correctly represent how this hunt took place, they are the frauds.
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Drummond: When the deer was brought up to me in conversation, there was very little discussion. I had no interest and I told them them that from the word go. If I had jumped on it, would they have told me? I have no idea but I would like to think so. But maybe they wouldn't have, I don't know. I have seen pictures sent by Wade similar to the one posted . Every time I have seen similar pictures, it was a text message. Obviously, a limited amount of information can be put on a picture sent via text. I know very little about the record book. I know a high fence animal does not qualify for B&C, at least I don't think it does. Does SCI 's record book include high fenced animals? Do they distinguish between free ranging and high fenced animals? Personally, I have no idea. To summarize my thoughts: 1- I am not too upset about what was said to me. It was a VERY SHORT conversation . It was a little like a waiter in a restaurant offering the daily special. More details were not provided because I said no immediately. 2- If this deer was sold as free ranging, I have a big problem. 3- If this deer is passed off as free ranging for record book purposes, I have a big problem. 4- The fact that it cost $60,000 doesn't particularly bother me. There are lots of places in the world where cost is based up size. For example, go check Kambako's website to look at the cost of elephants. Does a 100 pounder cost the same as a 50 pounder? They do not. Check Glenroy's website for the cost of red stag. They vary with size. Check various websites for the cost of ibex hunting in Europe. The fees vary by size. High fence hunting can be less than sporting or it can be extremely difficult, depending on the circumstances. I have a lease with 7,500 acres that is all high fenced. This is is 7,500 acres of the thickest nastiest stuff you have ever seen. There have been years I have not even seen a shooter buck, yet it is high fenced. Yet, some would automatically condemn it. I remember years ago, taking my kid on a hog hunt to a high fence place. They had a bunch of exotics. At this facility, they got out of the truck, rattled some corn in a bucket and the exotics came running. I would never have shot an exotic there. I will be interested in what Wade says about this. | |||
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That still puts me one step above you. I'll ask again for you to show me where I made this judgement, or was your post more about the insult than the facts? ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Larry! Thanks for this post. In your original post you stated that there was no high fence mentioned I took that as them telling you it was free range, but, as this latest post shows, that is not the case. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Is seems to me like you were far enough into the conversation with the "how can you be so sure" question you posed that they should have offered full disclosure but I wasn't there and am just offering an opinion based on what I have seen you post here..
I'm sure Wade will have his answers ready at DSC, he would have had plenty of time to come up with something to try and put this to bed. | |||
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If I gave the impression that they said it was free ranging, I apologize. That was not the case. They also didn't say it was high fenced. I assumed it was free ranging. it seems likely my assumption was not correct. As far as the conversation, it was very brief. They showed me a picture, told me the cost. I said no immediately. However, I did ask them how they could be sure they could get the correct animal as the price tag was so high. This was out of idle curiosity on my part. | |||
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I've gathered a few things from this situation myself. 1. Drummond knows his stuff and I trust his judgement. 2. Hunting penned animals is not my thing, but I could care less who does it. 3. I've been chasing mule deer since 1971. If someone offered me a 230" buck for $60k I'm smart enough to immediately send up the red flags, at least in my mind, and could probably deduce this wasn't a fair chase situation. | |||
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Any idea who the shooter is. | |||
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Since you keep pushing the point, and admit that you are an uninformed idiot, even though not one I was referring to, WHY DON'T YOU LEARN TO FRIGGING COUNT? Hint: "couple" equals 2. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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If you did not mean me, then I guess I should apologize, but since you also admit to being an uninformed idiot there is no reason to. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Funny I get jumped all over when I really haven't said much more than what Drummond keeps repeating. I'll also stay with my statement that anyone offered a new world record for ANY amount of money and asks the question that Mr. Shores did and is told that they know it can be taken because they know it's home range should be a tipoff that something is drastically wrong and chances are that the hunt is canned. We're talking about an animal in Mexico, not a mule deer taken by a Governor's tag holder where big bucks can be found pretty easy on the winter range in the US where everybody is out taking pictures of them. The hunter doesn't appear to be representing anything but a big smile and unless he's dumber than a stump or has never hunted before, which I find hard to believe if he has money to shell out for what that deer cost, I don't see any way in the world that he wouldn't know the score on that deer (pun intended)! I wonder how long it took to find and shoot that monster. Anyway, as I stated earlier, my problem and what Drummond keeps repeating is the picture posted by the outfitter completely misrepresenting the hunt to the public. If he did the same to the hunter, or actually merely a shooter in this case, is a whole different situation to be investigated. Maybe I'm laying too much on our member here, but he gets around a lot on high priced hunts and IMHO it should seem obvious to him and everyone else that the picture is fraudulent. | |||
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The most disturbing thing about this, again assuming its as it appears, is how those on the fence about whether they support hunting or not are going to respond to "farming for horns". | |||
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Your ability to count and recognize irony are similar. I wouldn't expect an apology from you. 'Nuff said. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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***Yep, along with all ethical persons who know what hunting is all about, rather than just shooting, which that certainly was!!! If SCI or anyone else has a book for those types of animals it sucks the big weenie!!! | |||
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Does such a record book exist? I honestly have no idea. | |||
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Larry, Yes, SCI has categories for 'estate' (fenced) trophy entries. Very common for European hunting. SCI also has separate categories for free-ranging trophies. Hope that helps answer your question. | |||
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I want to say a little about penned SHOOTIN' vs.fenced in HUNTIN';or more correctly;huntin' behind fence.To my way of thinkin',penned shootin' is like the old bison culling lottery shoots to thin selected bison on certain federal properties...no hunt to it...they drove 'em in a pen,the SHOOTERS pulled the trigger;and that was it.In my younger days,I used to drill and service water wells all over south and west Texas and especially in the Hill country of the Edwards Platoue (? splng.)...;many fenced properties,some very high.Never did I see a fence stop a deer,( and other things) that wanted to get out over the fence...a seven footer was nothin' to a deer standin' right there at the fence,so a running jump was no sweat,and the little ones had little trouble going under the many fences that had no bottom tension wire.I dont care for "STAKED " quarry shoots;but then the HUNT is what I'm in it for not the head or braggin' rights and while I may not like the situation bein' discussed.....it's not my business;nor my place to comment either way.It's not my way...but others have their way.I have my opinion as do we all...,but unless asked for it as a standard by the party/ies concerned,my ethics are just that,MY ETHICS;each man must search himself and decide these things for themselves. Thank You and don't forget to tip your waiters.  NEVER THE LEAST DEGREE OF LIBERTY IN EXCHANGE FOR THE GREATEST DEGREE OF SECURITY | |||
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The question has been raised regarding how this deer was sold(as free ranging or pen raised). I have not seen where this was pointed out but Larry said that they told him that they could find it because "they knew its home range". If this does not make it clear that they were trying to sell it as free ranging I don't know what does. Would a pen raised deer have a "home range".  Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Yes A very small one ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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For whatever it is worth , I just send Wade a text and asked him. He clearly said it was high fenced . | |||
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I have no doubt that this would be his answer at this point. There was some conversation here in Mexico among the Mexicans(outfitter and landowner) that they would try to enter this buck in to the Boone and Crockett record book and claim the ranch wasn't entirely fenced. Obviously these new pictures crush those dreams. This entire thing is a goat rope and there is a reason the entire truth never came out. This thing stinks. There are more details that have been known but I'll just take a wait and see approach | |||
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Okay, WHO, is most at fault in this incident? Wade Lemon or SCI for recognizing and awarding medals/record book status for animals shot inside of high fence operations? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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What was he supposed to say, after that pic of the hooded buck has been shown all over the internet? He wouldn't be stupid enough to deny it now would he? No offense, but he offered you this buck, told you what he would score, for $60,000, and you had to ask if it was high fenced/pen raised or not? | |||
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***Exactly what I said earlier in this thread and I got dumped on by a bunch of members. There is no fuggin way anybody with even half a brain that would be so naive that they wouldn't have known exactly what the score was (pun again intended) in a conversation like that. | |||
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