p dog shooter-
I have used the ballistic gelatin, but I live in a fairly remote area, and acquiring it is more of a problem than it is worth. And I agree with you, just like I mentioned in my earlier post: NOTHING compares to what happens when jacketed metal chunks encounter the resistance of flesh and bone.

But my system does compare favorably to results using the gelatin, so therefore, it does offer a decent medium for testing purposes and basic bullet evaluation. (The gelatin would be MUCH better if it could be set up with intermediate air pockets, but then it's really hard to handle when sliced into chunks...)

Well, shit. I didn't think anybody could do it but it appears that Bobby has. Your check will be on the way shortly Bobby.

Since I'm the only person to put my money where my mouth is for this stupid thread, I would like to add some comments. I believe $100 is worth everybody's attention.

First, I only made that challenge to show that I am 100% confident this will not happen when I shoot MK's at game. I was wrong thinking somebody couldn't make it happen under artificial test conditions. Bobby did. My bad. I'm the only one that has to pay for it.

I would not knowingly risk wounding an animal. I want to place the bullet as accurately as possible and will count on that bullet to blow a big hole through the vitals. I am confident my load will do this. My testing has shown it will.

Secondly, I do not believe Bobby's test reflects the reality of MK's being used by anybody in this thread or anybody I have ever heard of.

Nobody that hunts with long, aerodynamic MK's launches them at 2475 fps muzzle velocity. What would be the point? My load won't drop to the impact velocity he posted until about 950 yards--much farther than I, personally would shoot at a game animal (right now anyway, I'll never say never).

The 140 6.5mm MK is a very long bullet and should be fired at a much higher velocity. That thing was barely stable. Just because it doesn't keyhole in a piece of paper doesn't mean it won't want to tumble the second it impacts something.

The bullets didn't tumble because the noses bent. The noses bent because the bullets tumbled. Once a bullet is going sideways, the nose isn't going to expand. If it goes sideways immediately due to lack of stabilization, it never has a chance to expand. Had this bullet been launched at 3100 or so (like anybody using them on game would launch them) and had slowed to your impact velocity due to distance (beyond 500 yds) their rotational velocity would have been much higher and would not have decayed nearly as much as their longitudinal velocity. They would have been very stable. They would have stayed straight long enough for the nose to expand. Those noses don't look "pinched shut" to me at all. They look bent because they were going through the medium sideways. Because the bullet was being used improperly (too low a velocity). If you want to prove me wrong on that, give it a try. We'll make arrangements....

That's the biggest flaw I see in this test. However, out of curiosity (since you seem to be honest) what kind of wound channel did these tumbling bullets make? A "pinhole" that would easily heal? Just curious.

In summary, I didn't think anybody could make a MK not expand. Bobby did. I was wrong. He'll get his $100.

But, I do not believe the test conditions under which he attained them reflect even remotely to the conditions in which people in this thread use them in real life.

If you feel differently Bobby, how's this? Do the same test with any MK in the 300 RUM at MAX velocity. 1:10 twist minimum. Any range (as far as you can hit your contraption). And I'll want one of my TX MK-using buddies to witness. This isn't a one way challenge, this is a bet. If you fail, I get my $100 back.

That might prove something...you up for it?

Jon A-

I commend you for making good on your offer. That was an honorable gesture and shows character. I will post here when the check arrives.

I never claimed my test conditions duplicated or even remotely resembled anyone's hunting load. And that was never my intent. THat test was done simply to evaluate a particular rifle's accuracy potential, something I often do with MKs. Never did I state any velocity parameters -- and neither did you in your challenge.

But I have experienced similar results from both 24.5 and 26" 6.5-06 rifles, when the starting & impact velocities were considerably higher. (On the opposite side of the coin, I have also seen 120 grain MKs expand a bit at velocities obtained from a 10" 6.5 TCU)

Maybe it's the 6.5mm/140s -- I don't know -- but I have seen other such incidents of the MKs. Note that I do not say every fired round will not expand; some certainly do, and I have recovered a number of these as well. Then, too, some are nicely mushroomed while others suffer from jacket-core separation while a small percentage even display "rips,;" by this, I mean the jacket (separated from the core) appears to be torn from tip to nearly the point just ahead of the boat-tail.

As to your current challenge: I have no interest in your bet. In fact, I do not like the RUM series or any other overbore cartridges and instead utilize cartridges which do the job with a reasonable blend of power, accuracy and efficiency. And that's why the 6.5x55 is one of my all-time favorite rifle cartridges. And that's also why I hunt quite a bit with handguns. I can make a MatchKing without 100 grains of powder. But doing it consistently is another story and takes us back to your origianl challenge and my subsequent posting of the photo.

I took you up on your initial offer here simply because you made a blanket statement and were quite adamant that no one could fire a MatchKing without getting it to expand. I knew otherwise.

I was tired of hearing how "fragile" the MKs were when in fact I have recovered a number of them over the years that indicate performance is anything but consistent. Yes, some come unglued quickly; others don't. They are designed for surgical accuracy and deliver the goods in that category. Sierra doesn't care what the on-game performance is; what counts is the number of shots that comprise those tiny, bug-hole groups and the measurements thereof. And to that end, the MKs know few if any peers in their price range. But for someone to say that they can't be fired and not expand was simply wrong.

And, I proved my point to prove that statement wrong.

Jon A-
I forgot to answer a question you posed regarding the wound channel created by these bullets. With these particular 3 bullets in the photo, I honestly can't say. These were fired a while back, and data regarding such was not recorded as it was not pertinent (accuracy was the only thing I was interested then as I was debating whether or not to keep the carbine which I acquired in a trade). I happened to fire them through the medium simply because I was already set up for expansion testing of another caliber. But I will add that many times, the MKs are among the toughest to recover because, if they don't expand, they slice through all of the medium and into the compressed, shredded cloth "stop", which is rather substantial. Those that are bent or show other damage seem to make it through the first five or so sections before giving up a straight-line path. And penetration with these is often limited as well. They don't make "wound channels" per se as a bullet that does not expand will not generally do so in my medium. Shoot a FMJ into dirt or phonebooks, and you may get a false channel, for the bullet may accelerate foreign particles through as well. The air pockets in my medium helps negate this to a degree (but not totally).

This is akin to secondary bone fragments causing a large exit, leading many to believe that the bullet expanded to a gigantic (and impossible!) frontal diameter to create the exit. (I once had a fellow tell me his 100 grain Rem PSP-CL .243 WCF load "flattens out to silver dollar size" in every deer he shoots.)

When the condition of secondary bone fragments (or the more simplified explosive exhalation of a collapsing wound channel) comes into play, the scene (exit) may be impressive but gives no true indication of the bullet's actual expansion.

Bobby,

I won't fault you for not taking the 300 RUM bet. I wouldn't pressure anybody into anything. If you don't want to do it, fine.

But, have you ever tested any sort of large calibler, heavy MK fired from an "overbore" cartridge at high velocities?

Of all the people I have been in contact with that use MK's, the vast majority shoot big heavy bullets from gigantic over-bore cases at insanely high velocities. If none of your testing reflects this reality, please say so. It has much to do with the validity of your tests to the context of this thread.

I wouldn't expect a 240 MK to perform all that well from a 30-30. But it's a different story from a 300 RUM.

JonA: You said "Of all the people I have been in contact with that use MK's, the vast majority shoot big heavy bullets from gigantic over-bore cases at insanely high velocities."

I can point you to many folks (and people who have posted here, in fact) who use them or have contemplated doing so in conventional cases such as the .270 WCF, .308, etc. In fact, and while I am not sure I still have it as it was not my bullet, I had a .30 caliber, 168 grain MK fired from a .308 that had flattened on one side but not expanded. This load was factory -- Black Hills, if memory serves -- and the guy had taken a nice buck with a frontal chest shot from his Savage FP with 24" bbl. He was on a ridge and shooting downhill, and his shot went a bit high. The bullet entered the front of the neck, angled down to clip the spine and then traversed a good portion of the body cavity. I think (and don't hold me to this) that he found it in the left ham.

He told me the range was 175 yards, but, in all fairness, he also thought my 200 yard berm was 300 yards away, so his range estimation should not be given much thought in this example.

Tonight, I will look and see if this bullet is still in my possession. If so, I will post a pix of it as well.

But back to your question: The largest case capacity I have used the MKs in was a 7mm Rem Mag, that being a 168 grainer at something on the order of 2900+ fps. Like I said, I have no interest in the large capacity rounds. I've owned a few but find them completely unnecessary for my usage.

I am not saying nor have ever said they won't expand in the RUMs, etc. (I HAVE said they may not do so consistently). But when MK proponents make blanket statements that the bullets kill game like lightning and are the ne plus ultra of "hunting" bullets and even go so far as to verbally assault others with differing opinions, they may be encouraging shooters using the 7-08, '06, etc. to load up and try the MKs on game. There's a tremendous difference between the impact of a 240 grain, .30 cal MK at top-end velocity from a .30/.338 and a 168 grainer a more pedestrian speeds from the compact .308 WCF. These factors must be considered, and when they are, conventional hunting bullets win out every time (and that's why Sierra continually states that MKs ARE NOT designed for proper expansion/penetration on game).

I actually developed the 7RM/168 grain load for a fellow who was interested in long range paper punching. He took an aoudad ewe at nearly 200 yards and a sika doe at 100 and had very good results. But he quit using it for game after he laced a close-range coyote that went 200-225 yards before giving up the ghost. Fortunately, this was in the western edge of the Texas Hill Country in an area where he could see great distances and watched as the coyote expired (he had cranked out 2 more shots in the meantime but did not connect). I didn't see the coyote, but he tells me the bullet appeared to have minimal expansion -- and I warned him that could happen at any time with any game when using the MKs. (Thankfully, he's now gone back to his conventional hunting load with the 162 grain Hornady BTSP.)

What was proven was that 2 6.5 140 mks at 2400 fps shot into Bobby's test media tumble and do not expand. That is all. This test does not relate to hunting or the use on game except that 6.5 140 mks at 2400 or so most likely are not the best.
'''''''' Not one of us Mk users would say you should use a load or bullet como that does not work. I have yet not have a 180 gr .308 mk not expand nor have I had one blow up on game with the rifles and vel. that I use. A lot well say it is just a matter of time. To that I say your right that goes with any bullet or rifle combo It is just a matter of time before something strange happens. Of all the hundreds of big game I have seen shot I have seen of stange stuff with all kinds of bullets. Just last year I freind shot a smaller whitetail doe at about 40 yards with a 30-06 180 corelock factory load. He hit her at the base of the neck almost took her head off large entrance wound even bigger exit wound. Why the bullet hit a limb about 6 feet from her(found it broken off. Bullet failure no I don't think any body here well say a 180 gr rem would not be a good deer load. We all heard or have seen animals take multi hit even with the best bullets and keep going why because stuff happens. No bullet is 100 percent and if you require your bullets to be that you should give up hunting because it isn't. It id going to happen because as soon as you think you have it something happens to blow you right out of the water.
'''''''''''' I well continue to use Mk's in the rifles and loads that I find that they work the best in. I have 3 or 4 brands and differant type of bullets in my reloading room now. I have 8 or ten differant types of powder 3or 4 differant manufacutures of dies Why because I use what works the best in the situation I am going to place my self in. Why did I use my 300 win mag on this elk hunt instead of one of my 338's or 30-06's or any of the other elk capble rifles I have. Is because I wanted to. If I want to hunt elk with my 25 -06 or any other legal rifle I well and I well kill my elk with it and most likey with one shot. But I am not going to say if the game is still moving I am not going to shoot it more then once hell I'll shoot it ten times if need be because STUFF HAPPENS WHEN YOUR HUNTING.

PDog,
Sorry I left that impression, I could scold no one on any type of hunting, I have had a try at all kinds....

RMK,
I really think that was a cheap shot, and shows a total lack of personal dignity and intelligence, A mans 6 yr. old son is reading this forum in his father lap and you come up with that kind of trash, I would bet you would never say that to his face, it was just too cowardly...You sir are a troll of the first order, commonly known as white trash where I come from......

p dog shooter said: "What was proven was that 2 6.5 140 mks at 2400 fps shot into Bobby's test media tumble and do not expand. "

And there's the 3rd bullet in the photo that is virtually pristine. It penetrated and did not tumble...

But I never set out to "prove" anything with that expansion test/recovery. NOR DID I CLAIM TO. (Like I said, it was simply an accuracy evaluation which happened to be performed on my recovery setup.)

But what I took objection to is the blanket statement made by Jon A and insinuated by you that a MK will ALWAYS expand. That is simply not the case.

THE PHOTO PROVES IT.

And this should be the END of the matter -- and hopefully, of the thread.

That is, of course, unless you again misrepresent or simply skew what I said as you did in two earlier posts. If so, I will again go in, quote the references, correct the error and clear the matter -- and prove again that what I said then still stands now.

Bobby for arument sake you need to read all my posts over not only on this tread but the famous match king tread. I have never stated that they expand all the time. What I stated was I have never experiance one not expanding with my rifle and load. I did state that when shot into a snow bank I well recover one that isn't expanded. I think we both need to read before typing as we both have are own ideas as to what makes a good hunting bullet.

Bobby, thats how we get those huge holes. If the bullet isnt going fast enough to fully expand, it will tumble once it gets a few inches in flesh. Those bullets if reacted the same way inside a deer would have been nasty. It reminds me of the old US Army 5.56NATO(not green tip) ammo. You could be shot in the stomach and it exit your head, destroying everything in the wound channel, and leaving a gapeing exit hole.I'm sorry but if they dont expand but ''pinch'' shut they will tumble. Warren Jensen, owner Lost River Ballistic Technolagy, explained this in one of his posts on Longrangehunting.com, they may not produce consistant expansion, but they will tumble and the permanent cavitation is extensive. Personly for the way I HUNT, I would rather have them tumble than expand.

I AM THE INFANTRY,FOLLOW ME...HOOAH!!!

I have no dought as to the mk`s long range accuracy,I read Precision Shooting and The Accurate Rifle and have seen pic`s of some of the 1000 yd groups,if you can place your shot with the precision these guy`s show,I think you could use damn near anything(maybe even my old cleaning rods)and reliably kill your game,I personally will use a good bullet designed for hunting(unless for some reason none will shoot into a vital sized area at 75-100 yds)but,that is my choice.I thought that`s what our country stood for,FREEDOM even the freedom to disagree.I hope the first time (if ever)these mk users wound an animal because of bullet selection,they will post to that effect,or,at very least,change to something else.I lost a deer to a poorly placed speer 165gr btsp in my 30-06 in 1996,only took out the lungs so it made it over the 40yd hill to be effectively "killed"by a 16 year old`s 30-30 in the "ham".when I helped the kid`s dad gut the deer he informed me his kid`s bullet was the one we dug out from the mangled heart-lung area,showing him the boattail base seemed to prove nothing,except that remington factory 30-30 loads now must use boattail bullets.kid got a decent 4 point that day due to my "bullet failure"and next weekend i got a nice 5 point(one was missing with my 45-70 with a (dreaded)non-expanding hard cast bullet.he went down at the hit,no chasing.so to each his (or her)own.hunting state land sucks.

Well Bobby you are right matckkings along with most other bullets well not expand when shot into snow banks. I was mistaken. To set the record right.I HAVE NEVER HAD A MATCH KING FAIL TO EXPAND WHEN SHOT INTO A GAME ANIMAL OF PROPER SIZE. My does shootig p dogs with 180 gr match kings and not having them expand make a differants on how they preform on deer and elk. I think not. Does shooting p dogs with 250 gr horndays out of my 338 and not having them expand on the p dog make a differants on how they work on deer and elk.I think not. So on And So on

Oh Bobby I forgot the match kings only left 30 cal holes into the snow banks.

[ 11-13-2002, 19:16: Message edited by: Trooper Sensitivity ]

Fill me in, what's an F troop plant?
Yardbird

ALL I CAN SAY IS HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOW,, I mean WOOOW!!!!

HMMMM NOTE TO SELF------
Don't make trooper mad!!!!!!!!! Go get 'em man!!!!

Found this quite interesting

Go to swift scirocco opinions? under reloading and read the posts. Ray says swift does not recommend these for bigger game.Wish i had swifts web page to see for sure but if that is true Far right a believer in using a hunting bullet si considering this bullet for elk and deer and the manufacturer recommends not using them for elk instead use the A-frame. HMMMM thought that went against his post on the matchking.

Geez trooper sensitivity,you were the one that was in prison. In fact you got your little trooper packed on a regular basis. So much in fact,that you routinely went around the cell block screamining "little trooper sensitive".

Hell trooper sensitivity,you talk a good line of shit,about being a bad ass. But your time in the pen proves otherwise. Hell you were passed around from one prison gang to the other. You were everyones property and bitch. Hell towards the end there,the mob was paying for your estrogen shots. With the tits you were growing,you made all kinds of friends.

The real sad part trooper sensitivity,is the fact that the state allowed you and your boyfriend,to adopt kids. By the way,the caps lock in your post doesn't make you sound any more masculine,you're about as feminine as a chick with a dick can be.

This is certainly going well.

~Holmes

Gosh, did someone mention the Marlin Lever Action 45/70?

Did I mention the chipmunk episode yet?



R-WEST

R-West,you forgot about the "dillo's"

ATTENTION ALL ACCURATE RELOADING FOLK!!!!RMK IS A F-TROOP PLANT!!!! RMK, You are still a F-troop bitch,but,I allowed myself to get carried away when you accused me of the same thing that got you in the witness protection program.That is why ,as a serious defender of number 2,I deleted my post with vulger words.My kids have not been abused and gone to daycare, that is why they can read at 4. you do seem to have a ANAL theme for boys!!!Are you by chance a catholic priest?How many paper recievers do you have???Will your "control" allow you to extoll? Im still waiting for the full name and date of birth tough guy!When I post your convictions,who will buy a "paper" reciever from you????William B.Ruger would have a bowel movement if he knew we allowed pond scum like you to survive!

Trooper sensitivity,this board is about as close to firearms as you can get. You're a convicted felon on parole and can't even own a firearm,legally. Funny you should mention catholic priests. You tried to convince the judge at your trial,that a catholic priest was responsible for your deviant attraction to the same sex.

There really isn't anything to disclose about you trooper sensitivity,that wasn't brought out in your trial and presentence investigation.

Trooper sensitivitys background consists of assault on a priest(trooper tried to shag him during mass).Three acts of lude conduct with animals.(he got caught sticking them up his rectum,went to the emergency room to remove them and was then arrested. He was a poster child for peta).You did 6months for that and got a taste of the lifestyle you crave. The latest offense,that you spent 5years in the pen for, was distribution of meth and two counts of male prostitution. All that talk about F troop plant,stems from trooper sensitivitys stay in "F" block of the minimum security prison he was in.Trooper was known as the "pooper trooper daffodil of f block".

[ 11-14-2002, 09:18: Message edited by: RMK ]

jeez, sounds like you both need to just shut the F&ck up and get on with you life, will bashing some guy you have never met on the net make you a better man?

So delightful that you two gentlemen were able to take this thread into directions beyond my wildest imagination.

Your little exchanges have lent such a positive turn to a rather controversial subject. And your witticisms.... suffice it to say I am dazzled by the intellectual depths the two of you display.

I do, however, have but one small concern.... and that is our dear readership and the possibility of the same becoming distracted and perhaps even reluctant to further peruse the posts here given the illuminatingly diverse conversation you both have opted to engage upon.

So, I put it to the both of you delightful cyber musketeers....

PRAY, DO EITHER OF YOU LEGENDS OF YOUR OWN MINDS HAVE ANYTHING TO CONTRIBUTE PERTINENT TO THE TOPIC?

~Holmes

Ya Like you can actually fuck up a matchking thread.

This is a two-page thread with five pages of stupid attached to it.

Kensco,

This is nothing! You should have seen the last one. I had the honor of starting page 36. I forget how long it ran, and it certainly isn't important enough to bother finding out.

Beer - It's not just for breakfast any more.

RMK,I guess you da man.When all is said and done im glad your on our side,if your not really F-troop plant.When I go elk hunting im still gonna load it up with matchkings.

UPDATE: Jon A is man of his word. After issuing a challenge and offering $100 for the first person who posted a photo of a fired but unexpanded MK, he paid up. I received the check today via priority mail.

Jon has shown character and integrity. He could have easily disappeared into cyberlimbo but chose instead to honor his word.

We need more people in the world like that...

Thanks, Jon, and by the way, I am buying my 10 year-old son some of the books you suggested. Maybe that will keep him from depleting my ammo supply so quickly ( well, probably not...)