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Just so you can get your facts straight Legal Eagle..... I just spoke to a close Family member, who is also a supervisor in Wyoming Game and Fish. PD did violate the law! :eek Matchkings are not made to expand or penetrate. Just to be accurate. Sierras words not mine! Everybody is a lawyer now! [ 11-04-2002, 23:34: Message edited by: POP ] | |||
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JonA, I don't have to prove anything. Sierra says they are not designed to expand on game; do you think Wyoming G&F will take your word over the manufacturer's statements? Sierra's website doesn't show any 'serrations'(?) in the jackets; even their cutaway doesn't show any. I think people use SMKs on game because they can shoot tiny groups with them. They can't or won't develop a load with a HUNTING bullet. The Nosler Ballistic Tips were also misused in this manner; they shot so well on the range but failed so miserably in the game fields, that Nosler had to change the bullet to accomodate these dolts. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it! ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} BTW, Swift A-Frames expand at very low velocities. p-dog shooter, You'd better hope no one forwards this thread to Wyoming G&F for investigation. If they decide to do something about it, you won't be crowing about your stunt for long. George | |||
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| <FarRight> |
quote: quote:These come directly from the Sierra manual. They were not designed to expand nor were they designed not to expand--they were not designed to hunt with. So technically yes, you are in violation of the Wyoming law. | ||
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quote:It's called the burden of proof. You must be proven guilty of a crime in this country. quote:They're easier to see when you actually hold a sectioned one in your hands as I have. quote:Chapter 32, Section 4 (a) requires only "a soft or expanding point bullet." The SMK is an "expanding point bullet." Sierra has never said otherwise. All they're saying is that the manor in which it expands wasn't their number one priority when designing the thing so they aren't going to guarantee a picture perfect mushroom every time. If they were designed to not expand, Sierra would do a lot more than "Recommend Against" their use. The fact that they do expand in reality just shows you guys are barking up the wrong tree. There might be an arguement that they aren't tough enough (because they expand too much) for a Texas heart shot, etc. Focus on that.... ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| <FarRight> |
I already brought over exansion up but you either missed that or ignored it all together. I am also guessing that you already knew Sierra said that and chose to ignore them as well. The quotes I listed show clearly that the MatchKings were(are) not designed to expand--they are not designed to do anything after impact. Now I ask you, what more could Sierra do? Reguardless of how strongly they recommend against it, there will always be some dumbass that insists on pushing the red button just to prove he can. Sierra can't do anymore. They suggest against using the MatchKings for hunting at every available opprotunity. Hell they even offered a HPBT GameKing for those partial to the HPBT configuration. My guess is that they have seen to many lost animals and know that reguardless of shot placement, far more animals are wounded or made to suffer unnecessarily than are ever kill humanely with MatchKing bullets. Quite simply, I don't think you morons give a damn what we do or say to convince you otherwise cause you have to prove a point ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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I like the idea of an obviously knowledgeable and competent hunter (like p dog shooter) taking 300 yard shots with a 300 Win mag and 180 grain bullets that he has used and tested. This is better than the idiot using the .243 and a 85 gr varmint bullet (which IS legal in CO) for elk. While I do not use SMK, I do not fault those that do - if they know what they are doing. There are far worse combinations that a person in the woods could be doing. Congratulations on the elk and the 1 shot kill. Did you laser it before or after the shot? | |||
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Far right.. I agree with your statements. In my opinion people like that should NEVER been given the privelege of hunting a Big Game Animal such as an elk. They do not deserve it!! I hunt here in Wyoming every single year for almost everything. It is my responsibility as an ethical hunter to make sure I take the animal quickly and cleanly. Moreover I need to ensure that all my equipment are up to task as much as possible! I just wonder why some Matchking using hunter never admitted that they lost an animal? I can not believe they all work great 100% of the time! | |||
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If Sierra Match Kings are legal, and I believe they are, you would have to stretch the string a good deal to call them illegal by any stretch of the imagination, and a lot of Wyoming folks use them and I believe P Dog sure has a right to use them.... I sure don't want anyone telling me I can't use such a bullet..I know they will expand, they over expand...I have never known of one not expanding. I don't use them and don't intend to, but I have great distain for laws that have no substance. At any rate I don't believe some have interpeted the law correctly on this thread....I for one would like to see that law posted. | |||
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quote:Not at all. That's why I said a 180 MK wouldn't be my first choice in my .300 RUM for elk. Neither would any non-premium. I guess you missed that. I did say I'll be using a 240 MK (launched nearly 500 fps more slowly that a 180 would be) on deer. Big difference. quote:When they offer a 240 grain HPBT GameKing, I'll use it. quote:You base this upon what facts? Surely you wouldn't pull such a damning accusation out of thin air. Would you? quote:Quite simply, no I don't. When my own penetration tests show them out penetrating a 180 x bullet (how much penetration do you need to kill a whitetail again?). Not when these tests show the MK blowing a bigger hole at the same time. You're going to have to come to the table with some facts and experience to convince me that a kid with a .243 shooting an 85 grain bullet has a "deadly deer rifle" but I'm in danger of only wounding a little whitetail with a 240 grain bullet packing 4700 ft-lbs of energy with a properly placed shot. | |||
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| <GoWyo!> |
Whew! what a thread, I'm not even gonna mention the elk my 13 year old niece killed on saturday with a 6mm Remington. If I told any of you that she shot it at 325 yds through both lungs and the heart with a 95 gr. Ballistic tip, I might be run out of town on a rail. (I'm sure when the cow fell dead at 35 feet from where she had stood for the shot, that she was worried about what she had been shot with.) But I'm not gonna whisper a thing! I will leave you with this, know your limitations , choose your shot wisely, let the game fall where it may. If it is jacked up on adrenaline, it may be a long way from where you shot it! | ||
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And as an added thought, P Dog used his rilfe and load properly, made a clean kill on a broadside shot, now that is in my opinnion all that is required of anyone, especially since round ball muzzle loaders, small caliber rifles and archery is also allowed for elk...c'mon, you don't have to agree with him, I don't, but let the cards fall face up, some of you are punching below the belt. | |||
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Here ya go Ray: http://gf.state.wy.us/HTML/regulations/ch32fire.htm Any bullet that expands (except .22 cal's) is legal. Like you said, MK's expand. They're really stretching it here. | |||
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| <Boyd Heaton> |
POP,Yes,If I find a deer at 2000 yard's.I will kill it....... | ||
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You're a hell of a sportsman Boyd! What else can I say. Your statement proves my point. ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| <Boyd Heaton> |
Thank you..... | ||
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| <CHARLESARBUCKLE> |
Man I just love these discusions.I wonder how many I missed while I was gone.I'm gonna do everybody a favor and see if I can post pictures of all the deer that my group of shooters has shot with Match kings.Theres only a couple hundred. Every year I get exsess deer permits for crop damage.I've only been shooting them for about two years,but most have shot them for a long time. Most were shot at close range around 400yds.Some as far as 930yds,others as close as 112yds. Most were shot with a stock M70 300winmag using Federal 190gr Gold Medal Match thats quite capable of first shot kills at 1000yds. Your right they dont act like regular "PREMIUM" bullets.They have extremly high BC's,they go exactly where you want them to go,they leave enormous exit holes,and they have a hollow point.Oh,but they are made out of copper and lead just all the rest. I AM THE INFANTRY, FOLLOW ME.....HOOAH!!!!!! | ||
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One of Us |
What part of "they are not a hunting bullet" do you not understand? The only thing this proves is that for some people ignorance is bliss. Over a century of development into designing efficent hunting bullets through trial and error, sometimes ugly, and a few weekend ballistitians get a rifle and a brain fart and suddenly decide that they know more about a bullet than the people who made the it! OK, I believe you.. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} Ray A, I cant believe that you have the audacity to put down bullets like Hornady interlocks and gamekings and yet will advocate the use of a friggin match grade bullet for Elk. Whats up with that? | |||
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This thread is pathetic.......... | |||
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quote:It's called being realistic. The people that use Matchkings are typically well accomplished marksmen that will shoot at much longer ranges (where the ultimate accuracy and high BC's are a huge benefit) and fully understand the limitations of the bullet. They aren't going to shoot an elk in the ass. For them, a MK gets the job done better than a bullet that will be less accurate, drift more in the wind and shed its velocity quickly. But for your average Joe that shoots fewer than 20 rounds a year, probably won't shoot at anything farther than 300 yds or so and will take whatever shot is presented (bad angle or not) a tough premium is a far better choice than a Matchking or an Interlock or any other conventionally constructed bullet. A different task requiring a more suitable tool.... [ 11-05-2002, 10:10: Message edited by: Jon A ] | |||
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How much rib did you hit? | |||
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| <FarRight> |
O IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!! They are part of an elite! They are...special. Traditional circumstances and rules do not apply to them and therefore us inferior marksmen (read: "hunters") must either a) simply not understand or b) gravel in awe at their feet. Excuse my ignorance but why didn't you say so in the first place | ||
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quote:That's the first intelligent thing you've said all day! I agree with you! Tell me, honestly (i.e. not Todd E-esk), when was the last time you spent hours upon hours practicing at targets beyond 500 yds? A couple of months for me, how about you? Think about it. How many "regular hunters" (that don't peruse this website) have ever even heard of Matchkings, much less ever used them? Who are the people that are familiar with these bullets? People that shoot in matches.... Look at Boyd's sig. What do you see? I'm nowhere even close to being in his league but I'm learning with an open mind. I didn't even intend to use MK's this year. Every big game animal I've taken in over a decade has been taken with a Barnes X or a Nosler Partition. I bought a box of Swifts and Barnes was kind enough to send me a free box of XLC's. But I was open to the possibility.... I had a limited amount of time in which to learn to load for a new caliber and try all these bullets but my main goal for that time was to get a bunch of practice and improve my skills shooting at long range. I had never tried the Swifts before and I had never found a Barnes X load that would consistantly shoot much less than 1 MOA from my rifle. I wanted to spend more time behind the trigger than the reloading bench so I also ordered a box of a proven quantity. If I can't shoot accurately at long range with a 240 SMK I surely won't be able to do any better with any hunting bullet. They're also cheap and come in boxes of 500. That encourages practice...a good thing, no?Using that bullet my "thrown together load" was easily the most consistantly accurate load my rifle has ever fired. I ran out of time and never got decent loads worked up for the other bullets. But I wasn't worried about it because of my penetration tests. After seeing first hand what these bullets can do I was saying, "Oh yeah, that'll kill a deer!" My past favorite bullet (Barnes X) always gave me the toughness I wanted and were "accurate enough" for norma hunting distances. But I was looking for an advantage. The accuracy I've gotten out of them simply won't hack it at extended ranges. What's the mantra you see repeated here over and over as the single most important thing? SHOT PLACEMENT! Are you implying that the toughness of a "hunting bullet" will make up for being more inaccurate at extreme ranges, that it will make up for poor shot placement? After shooting hundreds of Matchkings at all ranges extending to beyond what I would personally even try on a game animal, I can guarantee good shot placement with this load. Right now I can't say that for any "hunting bullet" at those ranges. I'd rather have accurate placement than controlled expansion that hits in the guts because the wind blows the bullet like a child's rubber balloon. But I still have an open mind. Next year I might use a "hunting bullet" if I find one that shoots better. I'm always looking for the best. The best load I have right now has a Matchking on top. And yes, it will kill a fucking deer! | |||
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| <David King> |
In my experience Matchking do expand, I haven't saved all the ones I've recovered but I do have a few around. Here's one recovered from a moose http://community.webshots.com/photo/34840855/34915459FTPKNm They don't appear to me to be much different than a gameking as far as jacket separation. I've killed hundreds of deer with all types of bullets and calibers, Matchkings seem to work as well as any bullet with good placement. Here's a sample exit wound from a Matchking on a deer, distance was 176 yards. http://community.webshots.com/photo/34840855/34848683JUSmqH [ 11-05-2002, 16:51: Message edited by: David King ] | ||
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Thanks Jon for carring the torch. I ve been to busy hunting to jump in just came in for lunch. I sure do not know where they are all coming from daying mks do not expand. They must have never shot any thing with them. Huff and puff they well but it still dosen't over come the facts that match kings like any other regular hunting bullet place in the right place well kill what your shooting at. | |||
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Westernhunter, If your going to jump me then have the curtesy to read ALL my post, not bits and pieces and then interpet it anyway you want.... I never, repeat never, advocated the use of Match Kings, I did stand up for P Dogs right of choice. If they are legal then he has the right to use them...He used them properly and was successful and I said that counts for something, furthermore I told him that sooner or later one of those match kings would probably fail...That's is the American way...that also applies to Hornadys if you please, and to everyone on this board and to all those who live in this country. I believe in a persons rights above all else. As for my choice I use only premiums for the most part and everyone knows that.... | |||
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Western Hunter, I also would like to know where I posted anything bad about Horndady and for that matter Sierra Game Kings..Be specific. I have nothing against Hornady bullets..I think game kings are a little soft for elk and the bigger stuff in some calibers, others calibers they seem to perform OK... I have posted my preference for premium bullets but what has that got to do with non premiums... What were you doing just taking a shot in the dark? | |||
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| <FarRight> |
How long has it been since I practiced at ranges 500 yards and over...pretty damn long time. But then, I just got my rifle this summer and by the time I has it scoped and a load worked up for it we were in mid-August and then I had to leave to go to college having barely sighted it in. I'll deal with the long range practice this summer and hopefully get a little practice in this school year now that I have the rifle with me. If you want to practice shooting at 1000 and 2000 yards fine, I still don't think you have any business shooting game beyond 500 despite the power and accuracy of your rig. I used to think this feeling was universal but apparently some disagree. I know I could never see myself attempting shots at game past this range. I am also a large advocate of shot placement. I rate it first in a long list of considerations, followed closely by bullet construction. Perhaps your load will kill deer--there isn't much that won't, but elk are much heavier and much more tenacious. It takes a lot to put them down even if you do it right and I don't think it is foolish for me to want others to follow the care with which I select a load for them. I want a bullet that is going to offer controlled expansion and weight retention, something that will penetrate-- furthermore, I want something with a proven reputation. I want this bullet to do this consistantly-- designed to do it instead of doing it simply by chance. Yes, your MatchKings may work but they work by chance, not design. I can see nothing I can say will change your mind so for the animal's sake, I wish you luck. | ||
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quote:Thank you for clarifying that! More often than not I have a great deal of respect your opinions as do a lot of others here. As for the Hornadys etc. I was refering to past statements of yours stating that you have used them and will not settle for less than a premium anymore, but thats another thread and Im not going to dig for it. My point is different from the point you were making, but my remarks were made with the content and direction of this thread as a whole in mind. PD Hunter does indeed have the freedom to use the bullets of his choice, wether its legal or not! I wonder if he has left any garbage on private property or abused any ATV privledges as well latley. It is always the irresponsible ones that leave a mess for the rest of us to deal with afterwards. | |||
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| one of us |
wstrnhuntr sorry to disapoint you but I do not own a atv and treat all others property the way I treat my own. What no one as yet to explain is what is bullet failure. Every one talks about it but I have yet to see a postive definition of it. Mine is when the bullet fails to kill in appoxiate amount of time given to where the shot was placed. Match kings kill as well as any other bullet given proper shot placement. | |||
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| <swede7> |
Well, I can't resist, Boyd? What's the time in flight of your round at 1000 yds? (2000? get real) Ya think it may take a step or two before the bullet arrives? Of course not... it's a motionless deer, has no reason to walk, right? Stick to targets at that range and impress all your friends, real animals deserve a lot more respect than "I hope he holds still so I can prove what a marksman I am" stunts. You can tell me how many you've bagged way out there and it won't change a thing, it's not right. Be a hunter, not a shooter. | ||
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| <CHARLESARBUCKLE> |
Dave, if that deer was shot with any other bullet I would say-THATS A BIG FUCKING HOLE! Uh,parden my French. I AM THE INFANTRY, FOLLOW ME...HOOAH!!! | ||
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| <FarRight> |
Swede don't worry about Boyd. He didn't mean that he would shoot deer at that range, just that he would shoot at them | ||
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| <GeorgeInNePa> |
I never use MatchKings, can't get them to shoot. I use .30 cal Berger 210gr VLD's. These shoot! Also, Walt Berger, the guy who made them said it was ok for me to shoot deer with them, so I should be covered. You guys have to stop shooting animals with these inferior match bullets . Also shooting them past 100 yards or so, just terrible, . Don't you know it's just wrong! At what point in the animals death did the bullet fail? | ||
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Dave, you should be ashamed of yourself. It is very obvious to me that deer suffered a great deal for at least a millisecond or two and might have gotten away. Your Matchking hardly scratched him. Using such a whimpy load on a game animal is inhumane. I suggest you use a .257 Roberts with a 100 grain Partition next time. Now that's DEADLY! The bullet might actually make it to the off side shoulder if you're lucky! Until your Matchking can completely remove the off side shoulder (not just blow a whimpy little 4" diameter hole through it) it simply isn't deadly enough to hunt big game with. That deer looks like he might get up and run away at any minute! Thanks to FarRight and the clan, I have charted my intelligence while reading their comments on the subject matter in this thread: | |||
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one of us |
I don't hunt paper or wisconsin deer. I hunt Elk on puplic land and i have too much respect for them to use a TARGET bullet. I know they worked for you this time but what if they don't next time and you have a wounded Elk? Are you going too give up two or three days of your expensive elk hunt looking for it? What if you shoot a world class bull and you loose it? Think about that! NOT much of a memory for you or a story for your grandkids is it? Ain't worth a dollar is it?! | |||
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I am not sure that I would use a MK on a game animal or not but PD used a cartridge that he was intimate with, a bullet that he had confidence in, and used judgement and discipline to get that bullet in the area of the game animal that he wanted. He matched the shot to the implement at hand. How many of you folks that have 300 rums loaded with super fast "premium" bullets will pass up a 30 yard broadside at a whitetail because the normal performance of that particular bullet at those velocities has the same characteristics as an fmj? You have a bullet that is 100 percent legal at that (or any ) range but you KNOW before you pull the trigger that the terminal performance of your combination is not what the bullet manufacturer designed the bullet for. Exactly what is "more ethical" about that scenario than the one PD had with his MK? I personally would not use a MK because my limited abilities would not take advantage of that particular bullet at the ranges that is of premium performance. I personally will exercise my self control and not shoot over 200 yards. I exercise control and only shoot at ducks under 35 yards and dont like shooting that far. Yes, I can limit my shooting to the combination of my skills and my equipment. That is exactly what PD did. Jim B. | |||
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quote:I didn't know that was physicaly possible.If it is,I bet it goes against just about everything in the bible. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Brian M: Intimate: "marked by very close association, contact, or familiarity" You probably only believe in the missionary position, post marriage. ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Gator, Reminds me of the joke "You ain't Mother Teresa just because you spend all your time in the missonary". | |||
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