I really hate to admit this,but the poor tree sapped and sapped but last I knew it was still alive,probably leading a miserable existance in those cold northern Michigan woods.maybe with a little better shot placement or a better stalk on my part it could have been a clean kill.I guess at that young age I just didn`t RESPECT my quarry enough,well I`m a better person for it now,no more cleaning rod projectiles until someone has done more work on peak terminal performance with them.I still have nightmares about wounding that poor tree and why I didn`t think before I fired that terribly misguided round(it was a round wooden rod!!!)I will try to be a more conscientious hunter from now on.

I've watched several deer and elk get shot with both fmj bullets and matchkings from a .308win. In each case it was someone who didn't know shit about ammo and ended up with surplus. The matchkings were out of a M1A.

On one deer the first fmj bullet went through the shoulders and missed bone,the deer simply stood still and a second shot went through the lungs. The deer started to hunch up,but still didn't drop. Finally a .270 with 130gr partitions was used and dropped the deer immediately with a heart shot,that totally destroyed the heart. Opening the deer up, the lungs didn't have any of the bloodshot characteristics that you usually see with expanding bullets. The holes in the lungs were pencil sized and had around an inch of blood clot around each hole. The lungs themselves had very little fluid in them.The shoulder had a hole slightly bigger then a pencil in diameter and very little tissue damage.

The second deer shot with matchkings resulted in the first shot hitting the lungs,which resulted in the animal running a few yards and dropping its head to ground while still on its feet. At that time it got a matchking to the head,which actually dropped it. Upon examining the lungs,the results were the same as the fmj bullets. Very little damage beyond pencil size holes,with minimal clotting and little fluid in the lungs.

The elk shot with a matchking resulted in the first shot hitting the lungs,which did little or nothing,besides make the elk run into timber. The follow up shot as it turned out,hit the heart. The animal ran another 10 yards and stood wobbling. I finished the animal off with a 300 win mag in the neck breaking the spine. The lungs showed the same damage as the deer. Which was very little damage. The only sign that showed the heart had been hit,was a dime size blood clot on both sides of the heart. The wound has actually closed up and who knows how long the heart would have been functional after recieving the wound,had I not broke the spine killing the elk.

After seeing how pathetic both fmj bullets and mk's are on big game. I can't see why anyone would want to use them,besides just getting off on putting the animal through more pain. If you absolutely have to use nonexpanding bullets,use fmj's instead of mk's,the fmj's are cheaper and they give the same piss poor performance.Why spend more money on matchkings.

There are laws on the books for archers,requiring them to use sharp broadheads and I've seen archers recieve fines for having dull broadheads in the field. Yet there are plenty of dickweeds out there using full metal jacket bullets and other nonexpanding bullets like mk's,who recieve no fines.

I've got $100 for the first person to post a pic of a recovered Matchking that didn't expand.

I've seen pics here of Barnes X and A-Frames ("Premium bullets") that have failed to expand. Never a Matchking.

The only rule is a simple one--it must be fired from a rifle into something. That's all. The test medium of your choice, reduced velocity, long range, whatever. Just recover a fired Matchking from something that didn't expand, post the pic here and I'll send you a check for $100.

Why would I make such a bet? Because I don't believe it can be done. These things are softer than Ballistic Tips. They fucking expand. Prove me wrong and you'll be $100 richer.

Those of you who know they can fail to expand so easily should easily be able to make them fail to expand, right? Do it. Show it. Prove it. Or shut the fuck up. They expand just like Ballistic Tips. Good luck.

Yes, I'm serious.

JonA-
Will you make it $100 PER BULLET? I know I have AT LEAST 2-3 (and I am certain at least 2 are 6.5mm, 140 grain BTHP MKs)in my gun room. It'll take me several few days to get a picture posted because, as as professional photographer, I resent digital and don't use it. But if it's $100 per bullet, and you are capable of putting your money where your mouth is, then it would be worth my time to photograph the bullets, have the film processed at some cheapie outlet (my lab runs 2 weeks), scan the neg and get the image posted.

I have copied your initial post as evidence of your challenge and wil wait to see if you are willing to make it $100 per bullet. I know I am certainly ready to welcome your "easy money" into my home...

JonA-
By the way, get a little civilized and drop the profanity. I know that many kids tend to look at hunting sites, and my 10 year-old is no exception. So drop the profanity...

I clearly said:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon A:
I've got $100 for the first person to post a pic of a recovered Matchking that didn't expand.

---

Clearly, it was not a "per bullet" proposition. A one time deal . If posting one single pic of one single bullet isn't "worth your time" for $100 I say you are full of BS. If producing one single pic costs you more than $100 you must not be very successful in your line of work....

RMK I have seen the same type of stuff happen with so called hunting bullets most animals run or move when they are shot unless you spine or brain them nothing new here.How long to take a follow up shot seconds I watch a guy center punch a white tail buck 5 times with 150 gr speer soft pts the deer just did not know it was dead and just stood there bullet failure no.
,,,,,,,,,,,, JonA I'll have to wait for a big snow bank I have shot many of thousands of all type of hunting bullets hollow pts varmit bullets ect into snow banks and then in the spring have picked most of them up and a lot look like they could be used again but I just melt them down for pistol bullets. No but a 10 foot deep snow bank is not an animal I have never had a mk fail to expand on live animals.If I shoot them in Dec recover them in May well you still pay.
,,,,,,,,,,, Bobby if you were a man of your word why are you still here 5 or 6 posts ago you said you would be gone.

p dog shooter-

Yes, I said that I'm done with this thread -- and I would have been if you would not skew what others have said. I am also a person who will not sit idly by while lies are spouted.

JonA-I just hope I am the first to post because an extra $100 would be nice. But I seriously doubt I'd ever see any of the cash. Nevertheless, I will post the photo by next weekend just to prove you wrong.

As to the success of my business: It wouldn't be around all these years without putting bread on the table and money in the bank.

And p dog shooter, you said: "JonA I'll have to wait for a big snow bank I have shot many of thousands of all type of hunting bullets hollow pts varmit bullets ect into snow banks and then in the spring have picked most of them up and a lot look like they could be used again..."

Are you admitting that the MKs may not be expanding all the time????????????????

JonA:
You said: "A one time deal . If posting one single pic of one single bullet isn't "worth your time" for $100 I say you are full of BS. If producing one single pic costs you more than $100 you must not be very successful in your line of work.... "

I am successful enough that $100 is not that important to me. But again, we'll see if you actually pay up once I (or someone else) posts a photo of a MatchKing that did not expand.

Booby what I said was that all bullets fired in to snow banks most to not expand no matter the make or type from the most explosive varmint bullets to solids snow banks are a very good way to recover bullets if you want them in one piece. So to get your 100 dollars find a good snow bank. Well not prove anything because I can do the same with serria blitz or hornaday varmit bullets and get them to come out in one piece also. Now go shoot the same bullets in to live flesh and show me a MK that did not expand.

Bobby Tomek and RMK:

Guys, I have seen some of what you are relating happen with Gameking bullets as well. I used them for years, as I followed along with traditional thought, you must use a hunting bullet to hunt with. In fact I remember the last mule deer I took with a Gameking, the exit wound was nearly identical in diameter to the entrance wound.

I could get into a medical explaination of the clotting and what it takes to collapse a lung and so on but I don't feel that would serve us any purpose. However, I would just like you consider what I'm about to say with an open mind, and if you will then dispute that the Matchking is not an effective killer.

First and foremost, when I examine deer I do not and I repeat I do not do a complete post exam on the animal. However, I am a pathologist, and I have done hundreds of post mortem exams, so I have a trained eye.

I shoot a very large overbored magnum. I use the Sierra 300 grain Matchking in .338 cal. This is a personal account of what it did to my last Nebraska mule deer, a 200+ lb. animal. The animal was taken slightly quartered to me from 525 yards away, range verified by a LRF800. The bullet entered behind the front shoulder but catching the proximal lung in the primary lobe and then penetrating on through to the distal lung and exited, no part of the projectile was recovered. Entrance wound was unremarkable, the exit wound was large enough in diameter that I could fit my fist inside it. The distal lung, large amounts of hepatic tissue, liver, and the animals intact stomach lay on the ground at the point of exit. Several of the ribs to each side of the exit wound were fractured. Blood was noted out to ten yards in almost 180 degrees. Permanent cavitation although not measured was several inches in diameter. In my opinion the hydrualic displacement of the tissue was unlike any I have ever seen. Temporary cavitation, it goes without saying had to be enormous.

RMK, I really don't want to be a dickweed as you say, I too want clean dispatches, but these results are hard to ignore. The fact that I have seen them repeated makes it even harder for me to ignore. Perhaps it was the fact that the bullet arrived with approximately 4700 ft/lbs of energy at this range. Although many arguements can be made about that as well.

You guys tell me, am I just lucky? Are these results just a fluke and to be considered atypical?

I selected Matchkings because Nebraska has a lot of wide open mulie country, I know Texas and Wyoming both have the same. Long shots where I hunt are more common than the short ones. I wanted the enhanced accuracy the Matchkings provide, as I still believe shot placement is the most important factor in killing anything.

I'm open to a free exchange of ideas. I will open my mind and listen to what you have to say, if you will conversely do the same. Visceral dialogue is doing nothing for this debate.

And again.....

I don't understand why everyone gets so bent out of shape over a lump of copper and lead.

Long time ago in arms embargo days a lot of South Africans would use MK's because they were way way better than the locally manufactured PMP crap. If they were all you could find on the shelf that's what you used. They were actually tougher than the so called hunting bullets from PMP. I always looked for Nosler Solid bases if I could but they were rare.

I've shot over a dozen springbok, countless dassies and recently 2 warthog with 22 cal 69gr BTHP MK's. All of them fell in their tracks.

The 7mm 150gr MK has been responsible for 2 impala. That was a result of my bud calling at the last minute and it was all I had loaded and the shops are shut 5am Sundays....

This was many years ago, there are better, cheaper hunting bullets available. But that doesn't mean I would not hunt because MK's were the only bullet available. I'd use them with confidence because they do work if you place the bullet in the right spot, which is usually in the head, for springbok.

Cheers

Pete

Ok I think the time has come for Pdog shooter and Bobby to hold hands and sing kumbayah. In the words of a famous liberal "Can't we all just get along?" I have known P-Dog [sounds like a rapper fer crying out loud!!!!!]for more than a decade and have never known a better shot with handgun , rifle or shotgun. He walks the walk as well as talking the talk,the preperation he did for his elk hunt most men COULD NOT DO,plain and simple.
If he says matchking for elk, if I ever get to go elk hunting, matchking it is.... as Colonel cooper says , a .22 in the tearduct beats a miss with a .44 magnum!!!!! Long live #2 and read THE BOOK!!!!!!

Damn jon a,why the fuck didn't you just tell hornady and nosler to save their money on the sst and ballistic tips and make a clone of the sierra matchking,since it's so explosive. Save the 100 bucks and buy some real fuckin' hunting bullets. I'd really like to see a recovered MK that was fired into a big game animal,unexpanded or not. I've yet to see a mk recovered,everyone of them I've seen fired penciled through and exited the animal.Maybe they expanded when they hit the dirt?

PDog,
Sorry if your upset, I was just explaining why I don't use a range finder, it is just one step up that I have chose not to do...Do not care who uses one, same with a scope or anything else..I have no desire to spear anything. Glad you stalked within 3 foot of a deer, whats the point of that...

I stated to all that you had the right to shoot deer with a matchking if you so wished, please settle down and allow me the same choices!

As to the threads on shooting animals with solids. I have a few ideas on that subject that may or may not be of interrest or even correct...

I have shot a lot of plainsgame and a lot of Cape Buffalo with solids...

I know solids work fine on Cape Buffalo, Hippo and Elephant, but in the same caliber and bullet weight at the same velocity they do not work well on plainsgame unless heavy bone is hit...Antelope and deer are more high strung and tend to go much further in a shorter time, and seldom turn to fight. Solids normally do not work well on them and I say normally as I have seen instant kills with solids.

An exception may be the GS flat nose solid which seems to kill plainsgame about as well as a soft. It destroys about as much tissue as a soft just in a different way..It has an elongated wound channel.

Military ball ammo, such as we used in the WW2, during rationing days was pathetic, it either tumbled and killed well or it sliced through and they made a lot of tracks without much blood....If you ground off the tips then it was anybodys guess what would happen...I, out of no choice, shot a lot of deer with these old 30-06 loads, thats all we could get and they were black market stuff. Hope never to use them again..but for the most part they worked well enough...

I have openned up one Eland and a couple of Buffalo that showed scar tisssue across both lungs caused by bullets. I have a bullet from the Eland, that bullet broke the left shoulder, the bullet came apart on the heavy bone but the jacket went through both lungs and came to rest in the neck/shoulder area imbedded in a grissel like tissue when found..the wound was old indeed in that it was an old bull and in very good condition...I believe the bullet is a 150 gr. 308 caliber of some sort....I still have it.

Elmer Keith wrote of an elk with scar tissue in both lungs and I have talked to PH's that have observed this...I tracked a Cape Buffalo that lived for 72 hours shot high through both lungs. I know of several others that lived a long time shot through both lungs, most die within 100 yards.

Based on this I believe some animals when full of Adrenaline can survive some terrible woundings, but this is just my oppinion.

RMK has a potty mouth,my 6 year old likes to read with me on this website....I thought liberal speak was not allowed...is the webmaster sleeping???????

JonA-
Here's a link to the picture of the MatchKings that did not expand. I could not wait and got the shot on b/w film in between appointments this afternoon. And I uploaded a low res scan a few minutes ago.

These were 6.5mm, 140 grain BTHP MatchKings, and the impact velocity was around 2140 fps.

Please send my $100 to:
IMAGES by Bobby
PO Box 165
Shiner TX 77984

I will let everyone know on the forum whether you made good on your offer. And please, use delivery confirmation; the extra 0.40 will let you know that the payment did arrive.

http://www.outdoor-search.com/gallery/Free_For_All/aba

By the way, if anyone knows how to simply load the photo onto a post here, you are welcome to do so -- that way, no one has to click on the link. THANKS!

In a previous post, Ray stated: "I have opened up one Eland and a couple of Buffalo that showed scar tisssue across both lungs caused by bullets. I have a bullet from the Eland, that bullet broke the left shoulder, the bullet came apart on the heavy bone but the jacket went through both lungs and came to rest in the neck/shoulder area imbedded in a grissel like tissue when found..the wound was old indeed in that it was an old bull and in very good condition...I believe the bullet is a 150 gr. 308 caliber of some sort....I still have it.

Elmer Keith wrote of an elk with scar tissue in both lungs and I have talked to PH's that have observed this...I tracked a Cape Buffalo that lived for 72 hours shot high through both lungs. I know of several others that lived a long time shot through both lungs, most die within 100 yards..."

THANKS for sharing that, Ray. It's amazing what an animal hyped on adrenaline can withstand and do. But the armchair doubters will never change their minds...

As an aside, I killed an older hog a few years back that had 2 palm-sized area of scar tissue that ranged from the hide to a couple inches deep, including some minor scarring on the liver and back of one lung. It appears that someone shot the hog at rather close range with high velocity, frangible bullets that were ill-suited to the task. And to top it off, I found a lead RN from a .38 Spl or similar that was still in rather good condition save for some minor flattening of the nose. I am guessing the first shots knocked the boar down and that the hunter attempted a coup de grace. But the shooter never had the foresight to realize the lead RN would never make it through the thick hide and gristle plate -- not to mention never realizing varmint bullets are poor choices for wild hogs.

By the way, the wounds were well-healed and were somewhere in the range of 1-2 years old. And for the record, a 6.5mm, 140 grain Hornady Spire Point at a modest MV of 2740 fps is what dropped the large boar in its tracks and kept him there as well.

Bobby,just a ?...Was that one of your bullet's?And what game animal was shot with it????

If an animal is hyped up on adrenaline and can withstand a lung or double lung shot what would kill it? If this is true as to what Ray and Bobby say then i doubt an expanding bullet would kill it too! hmmmmm what to use now?

Bobby
another ?..... What gun was used with the 140's? I would like to run some numbers on it and see how much energy it had.

[sarcasm on]

[sarcasm off]

Just stirring the pot,,,,
The devil made me do it...

[ 11-11-2002, 07:22: Message edited by: Nutoy ]

The bullets were recovered from the same test medium I use for all expansion evaluations. I never said it was recovered from an animal (I'd NEVER use an MK on game), and I only posted it because of a $100 challenge from JonA who said recovering one without expansion was not at all possible. I have hundreds of recovered bullets -- both from test medium and from game -- so it was a relatively simple to pull these MatchKings from the shelf and collect $100 for the effort -- not to mention prove someone wrong...

My testing setup is rather complicated to explain, but in short, it consists of a repeating assembly of 1" wet newsprint and 1-inch air pocket. On the very first facing, there's also a sheet of 1/8th" paneling material (rather soft), and every 5th facing is fronted & backed by a square of 100 percent cotton material (basically worn T-shirt). At the very back, an area where not-too-many bullets make it to, is a compression of shredded cotton garments, lightly dampened, to collect those stubborn, non-expanding bullets that punch right on through everything else.

I've tried everything from sawdust-silt mixtures to phonebooks to what-have-you, and this set-up, which I have used since 1985 or so, seems to give the closest parallel to performance on game -- although NOTHING is the same as flesh and blood. I've hunted a good while with handguns, and back then, precious little info was readily available. So I came up with my own means of testing to assess the performance of bullets in cartridges such as the TCUs, BRs, JDJs along with a host of lesser-known wildcats.

[ 11-11-2002, 07:25: Message edited by: Bobby Tomek ]

Nutoy-
Thanks a bunch for posting the photo for me...
Bobby

What twist was the barrel you shot them out of????

Boyd-
These were shot out of a Model 94 Mauser carbine with the original military barrel and, of course, the standard twist, which I believe is 1:7.5 or thereabouts.

Matt-
FYI, the gun: Mauser 1894 carbine. twist: 1:7.5"

Load: Lapua 1F brass, Fed 210 primer, 46 grains Re-22 (I did not record the seating depth of the load) with the Sierra 140 grain BTHP MK

200 yard target impact velocity: app. 2140 fps

I didn't run #s on point of impact energy, but it should be in the 1425 ft./lbs range

Anything else I can provide?

[ 11-11-2002, 07:37: Message edited by: Bobby Tomek ]

"Trooper Sensitivity",so that's how you got your name. I bet you like it when your 6 year old sits on your lap,or for that matter the neighbors kid.

Just wondering,but look's like to me those bullet's keyholed.I would be very interested to know the exact twist.....A 7.5 should stabalize them....But it's pretty clear to me by the picture they were not.I better tell the guy's at the 1000 yard club who are shooting and winning with a 6.5 shooting those bullet's that they can't use them anymore.Cause only expanding bullet's are allowed

[ 11-11-2002, 07:40: Message edited by: Boyd Heaton ]

Boyd-
They did not keyhole, but they did tubmle as evidenced many targets I have reviewed. This is common for the MKs when the nose bends. Thus, it really has nothing to do with twist but rather the flight stability and it's reaction to the "pinched" or bent nose, which the MKs, exp. the 6.5/140s, are renown for (by those who do lots of testing, that is). FMJs which do not have the base of the core enclosed often do something similar, even when stabilized: the impact slightly bends the bullet, which then tumbles in the target. Twist is not an integral part of this equation...

Boyd-
As an addendum: the log for this particular load (in the carbine, I might add) notes that I was getting 200 yard groups of .825 to 1.270") for 3-shot strings. The scope: a moderately-powered Nikon Monarch 3-9x40.

So that also throws the keyholing/yaw theory out the proverbial window...

Something was wrong with that batch.The only other bullet's I've seen do that are fmj's and "x's"...I have dug hundered's if not thousand's of mk's in 7mm 30cal and 338 cal out of almost anything you can imagine.And not one failed to expand

Boyd-What exactly did you dig them out of? A dirt bank/target berm is not a fair assessment of a bullet's terminal performance potential. For starters, most initially impact 1/2 to 1" thick plywood and then impact the compacted dirt.

Ray sorry to jump on you about stalking put you left the impression that just because we shot game way out their we can not stalk. So have a lot of the others belive that because a person thats shoots way out there they can not get closer.Long range hunting is just differant game thats all. Most long range hunters are well established short range hunters looking for something differant.

Bobby you should go to 10% ordnance gelatin what you are using can not be duplcated the same for every shot to many varibles to be a vaild test media. It has no relationship at all to live animals. I am sure it is fun and all but there is no way to compare your results with what actualy happens with game.