Time for me say a few thing's.....Can't let PDS,JonA and Dave King have ALL THE FUN .Swede,I know excactly how long it take's my hunting load's to get to 1000 and 2000 yard's.Do you??????Have you ever seen a deer at 500 yard's????How about 1000 yard's?????Maybe a mile???????I have......Hundred's of them.Ever watch a deer stop and browse twig's????Ever see a deer in it's bed....????Did'nt think so....Stick with what you know.....Not with what you think you know.Go to the Lilja web site.And read about Long Range Hunting over there.Read about where a very good friend of mine shot a black bear at 700 yard's with a 200gr MK...On another web site a story about an elk shot at 2890 yard's using a MK bullet.Bullet went through BOTH shoulder's and left an exit wound the size of a volley ball......And NO WHERE on the Sierra web site does it say THEY DON'T EXPAND.....SO give it a rest guy's.You don't HAVE to use them.......I do,and will continue to do so......

On another web site a story about an elk shot at 2890 yard's using a MK bullet.Bullet went through BOTH shoulder's and left an exit wound the size of a volley ball

Big deal !
I shot one at 3500 yards with a .44 round ball that left an exit hole the size of a house trailer.

Good for you....Have any picture's or video?????

How many of you reload? probably 99.9%of you do. How many of you reloaders load more than the max in the manuals? probably at least 60-70% of you. Why? because each gun is different each person uses different components than the manufacturer real life situtations tell you you can but the manufactures say NOT TO EXCEED MAX LOADS LISTED cause they have to cover their butts just like bullet manufacture do like someone else said on this thread. Not to start another thread but to those of you that say we are dumb and iggnorant for usin matchkings gonna sit here and type and tell me if you have the same gun i do that i can't put more powder in my case and shoot it in my gun cause you can't? there are so many factors that play a role in reloading as do shooting game with certain bullets. And for those of you that say you shouldn't hunt game over 500 yards to you i say thank god people like you don't do it cause if ya did there would be more wounded game and give us all hunters a bad image! It is not like we don't have enough to worry about as hunters than to worry about guys that go and shoot far and have never done so. Kill zone of a deer is 8" and 24" for an elk and i can shoot 3-5" at 1000 yards hmmmmmm if i am doing my math right that would be enough to kill a deer right? And before any of you go spouting of about there are to many factors invovled to shoot that far and i am full hog crap that we (long range hunters) can shoot those groups at that distance all i have to say is Practice Practice Practice makes perfect.For those of you that don't shoot farther than 500 or 100 yards don't you take the time to be proficent at that distance and know your weapon before you go hunting? Do you honestly think that we that choose to hunt long range don't shoot hundreds if not thousands of rounds at those distances before we would even consider hunting game? Hunting is not a right it is a privilage and if we abuse it we lose it. I don't know of any PURE outdoorsman avid hunter that does not believe in that and that he would not make himself comfortable with his weapon of choice and range of choice.
As my father taught me don't judge something you have never tried until you tried it.And yes it takes someone special to shoot at those distances. It takes dedication of range time load development and plenty of time.I am not saying people that hunt long ranges are elite but very dedicated to what they do and have all the confidence in the world to shoot that far cause they have done the moral ethical thing to be able to do it.
Matt

WOW MATT.....Very well put.....

Dang it,now why does he have to go and sound all intelligent.And just when I was having fun with all these childish posts.

I AM THE INFANTRY,FOLLOW ME...HOOAH!!!

Yeah,I'm glad there are people like him around to do all the talking........

LOL it is just i am tired of all these people sayin this and that and this and that and don't have a leg to stand on when if they think about it they do the same crap but in different areas. Notice how none of those guys have responded?
Matt

First of all I would like to say this type of debate does nothing for any of us. Hunter vs. Hunter. Don't we have enough enemies, that fighting amongst ourselves seems somewhat moronic?

Now, I am a Pathologist, which means I have spent years of my life studying histology,living tissue for those of you that don't know that term. A very well publicized specialty of Pathology is forensic medicine. With that established that I know what I'm looking at, I have shot several big game animals between 500 and 1000 yards with MatchKing bullets. The area of cavitation and tissue destruction has impressed me greatly, not to mention the diameter of the exit wounds. For example, I shot an animal last year at 525 yards, ranged by a LRF800, the exit wound was so large that three of the animals vital organs exited via that wound. Perhaps I will start keep track of all these kills and write a book throwing the weight of my credentials behind it.

I want to concur with the post above from Matt. There are those of us that spend hours upon hours with our rifles. We purchase the equipment and spend the time neccessary to confirm our trajectories. Long range shots are possible, I have made them and I have seen many others make them.

I am an ethical person by trade, and if I had seen one shred of scientific evidence, rather than the visceral rhetoric presented here, that proved to me that the Matchking was not an efficient terminal performer I would not use them. However, all the evidence that I have seen and collected, indicates otherwise.

And one more person to make me feel dumb.....Well said again.........

My Oath,

Somebody send for the waaambulance!So much righteous indignation in one short read.Please can we give up the"to MK or not to MK" debate.This old nag doesn't deserve this much whip.

ABH

Alberta

Is debating a bad thing? If tired of reading it don't click on it and read it. It still must intrique you. I just would like to see what the others have to say about there ways in errors in other aspects of hunting and reloading. Why judge one guy for somethin when you do somethin else that goes against the books(manufacturer)? And it looks like this could go on and on. There is always room for a good debate.
Matt

Matt27:

Unlike most, I don't care if you shoot MKs or not, but I'd sure like to bet on those 3 inch groups at a 1000 yards. How much per 5 shots?

The world record 10 shot 1000 yard group is 3.151 inch's......Shot by a person in Willimsport Pa.........10 shot group's in the 5 to 6 inch range are very common in PA....As an add on,I have shot my first five shot's of a record string UNDER 3 inch's two time's this year..................

[ 11-07-2002, 07:53: Message edited by: Boyd Heaton ]

Gatogordo

I never said i have shot at a 1000 yards bein my range facilities are limited to 600. I have shot 1 1/8" at 600 5 shot group with a Remington Sendero standard 26" heavy barrel no gunsmith work to it at all. Standard everything. I do know of people that shoot those groups and i think Boyd can confirm that. I do shoot consistant groups at a 100 yards in the .1" though

LOL i knew Boyd would come through

This just keeps getting better and better just got done looking at my serria manual doesn't say a thing about match kings and expansion just saids they are made with the highest in industry standards better jackets better cores makes for a better bullet. Looking at match kings and there jacketed hollow pt seems to me that the match kings are just better made. The rest you you keep up the good work.

If you come to Willimsport PA and your gun won't shoot 10 shot group's under 7" you won't be taking home any prize's ...A ten inch group make's me tuck my tail and kick my own butt all the way home tring to figure out what I did wrong..............The Heavy gun ten match aggregate winner down here was 6.6615 inch's

Gatogordo,I have personaly seen a 1.5 inch five shot group at 1000 yard's......I also was pulling Mark King's target when his FIRST 9 SHOT'S WERE WELL UNDER 3 INCH'S.However,his tenth was a flyer And took him out to 3.3 inch's

to all of you long range shooters, my hat is off to you guys!
i personally do not have the abilities, equipment, patience and or range to get into this arena. much to my dismay. my figurin goes if you practice like that, then shoot like that.
everybody around here says my .458 wm and 7.62x39, are either too big or too small for deer hunting. but i do not beleive them either.
halfbreed

WoW...2890 yards, going through both shoulders, with exit wounds the size of volley balls!! I know its almost bed time but... tell us more! tell us more!
smallfry

Matt27:

quote:

---

Gatogordo

I never said i have shot at a 1000 yards bein my range facilities are limited to 600. I have shot 1 1/8" at 600 5 shot group with a Remington Sendero standard 26" heavy barrel no gunsmith work to it at all. Standard everything. I do know of people that shoot those groups and i think Boyd can confirm that. I do shoot consistant groups at a 100 yards in the .1" though

--------------------
Matt

---

Of course you did, here is part of your earlier posts.

quote:

---

Kill zone of a deer is 8" and 24" for an elk and i can shoot 3-5" at 1000 yards hmmmmmm if i am doing my math right that would be enough to kill a deer right? And before any of you go spouting of about there are to many factors invovled to shoot that far and i am full hog crap that we (long range hunters) can shoot those groups at that distance all i have to say is Practice Practice Practice makes perfect.

---

So now you are admitting that you were lying and, in fact, are full of hog crap. Try to practice remembering what you wrote, it helps.

Boyd:

I am fully aware of the records, and anyone who wants to bet on a 5 shot 3 inch group, any number of sighters, but then 5 for record at 1000 yards, can take my money anyday if they can shoot one, but I sure like my chances. In other words, I'll damn sure win a helluva lot more than I lose, unlike Hogcrap Matt's post above.

Note: that I am not arguing about the exceptional shooting abilities of some of the 1000 yard shooters, simply calling BS when I read it in Matt27s post.

You can also take elk with a chevy pickup by running them over, but does that make it wise? Why use a bullet meant for punching paper when there are so many good, accurate hunting bullets out there on the market?

I think he was refering to a second person,such as myself that shoot 5 or 6"'s at 1000 yard's...Not himself...

PH,tell me of one more accurate hunting bullet.Have you ever shot anything with a MK???No?????Then how do you know they work better......

Boyd:

Somehow I don't think the "i" in his statement "i can shoot 3 to 5 inches at 1000 yards" when used by Matt27 means someone else's shooting ability, or is his "i" subject to Clintonian interpretations of meaning, which is apparently what you are trying to do.

If you read his next response, he seems to indicate that he has, in fact, never shot past 600 yards and is just repeating what he hopes he can do in the future, not what he has actually done.

BTW, Matt, just to be fair, I'll also bet YOU on groups in the .1s at 100 yards or 1 1/8 inch groups at 600 yards since those are the ranges you are familiar with. Same rules, any number of sighters, but then 5 for record, pay off after every group.

Hi Boyd -

Every time I see flames coming out of the computer, I figure Heaton's got to be involved Go get 'em champ

Hey, how's the second LR video coming? Did you get any face time in this one?

Still haven't heard anything from Hart's

R-WEST

Westernhunter,
I sure don't disagree with you and I do use primiums on most of what I shoot..good insurance..I remember the old days when lots of bullets failed..I am a believer in useing the very best components available...

I don't think it makes any difference what bullet you use on deer but I do not believe matchkings should not be used by most of us on elk...

If a hunter is fortunate enough to hunt where elk can be shot at reasonably close range and behind the shoulder, then a match King will certainly work...It is about 12" through an elk low behind the shoulder broadside!!

It is all in the application, the ability to adjust your hunting style to match your equipment..I have killed many deer with a 222 and never lost one and I know a 222 is not a deer rifle per sae...but used correctly it will kill them as well as any caliber...A 300 RUM becomes a 30-30 or even a 30 carbine at distant ranges. I know folks that shoot at elk at those ranges and would faint away at useing Matchkings..

I also support P Dogs right of choice, I'll say that one more time, it is legal, he has cleanly killed his elk, what more can you ask...Do I agree with his choice of bullet, absolutly not, but I don't like the way my wife drives, and I'm not going to deny her driving priviledges. I like living too much.

At any rate this thread has about worn its self out...and nothing has changed. I'm outta here.

Well Boyd, I can't give you an honest time for my load to travel 500 yds or a 1000, just what some programs and books tell me, but you can't tell me a deer or any other animal can't move enough to make a good shot bad at that distance. Deer can also make a quick jump at 100 or even 50 yds if something startles them... ever been bowhunting and watched calm deer suddenly get skittish and jumpy? Does wind suddenly gust in PA? Used to when I passed through every week. Any effect on bullet fight there? It's only my opinion, and to you it may stink just like the outhole, but if you can't find the energy or effort worthwhile to get closer, stick to the range and paper.

Swede,

This topic has been beaten to death. The answers to all of your questions are on the older threads. Some are obvious, some aren't. The wind is obvious - they have winds when Boyd & others shoot their groups at 1000 yards, and their groups are still small.

Less obvious? I believe that if you studied deer at a distance as long as they have, you'd know something about when they move and when they don't. And I'll bet they spook a lot fewer deer from 500 or 600 yards than you do from 50!

You tell them "If you're too lazy to get closer . . ." ? I tell you, "If you're too lazy to learn all the things that they know . . . "

Williamsport. North Carolina. I'm sure there are plenty of other places. Check it out. And that's just part of the skill.

The woods are full of people who are already expert on subjects we barely knew existed last week. Have some respect!

I know this has been beaten to death, and I've only read the third page of it, but I didn't see anyone mentioning the distinction between shooting targets and hunting. A hunter gets as close to his quarry as he possibly can so he/she can dispatch it with the utmost efficiency. A shooter of targets sets up his heavy rifle on a concrete bench that doesn't move and proceeds to take marker shots and windage shots in order to get on target with adjustments made for the wind that particular day. I'm not even going to touch the Matchking debate, my rifle shoots Nosler BT's better and they are a far better HUNTING bullet. Now, I have taken game at 400+yds. and done it confidently and humanely, but only under optimum conditions where the wind was calm, or I had a straight tale wind, and I had a rock solid rest, aka a large boulder sunk in the ground with a pad on it and I shoot form prone position. This just happens to be in one of my favorite prairie deer stands on the ground and I use this rest whether it's a 50 yd. shot or a 450 yd. shot. This is as close as I can get to those particular deer. To sum up what I'm getting at, if you can't get closer than 2890 yds, which I suspect may have been a misprint intended to be 289 yds, you shouldn't be hunting. 1760yds=1 mile, 2890yds.=1.6 miles. If you can't get closer, get the hell out of the hunting business!!! I personally think that 500+yd. shots should be reserved for milk jugs and paper, not to a beautiful creature that God put on this Earth for us to take care of and harvest humanely!!! Making a sport of deer by shooting them at questionable ranges is sick, you need to re-think your morals and ethics, and I don't give a damn whether you can shoot a .1 group at 100yds. or not, that concrete bench you did it from is not in the hunting field with you!!!!
Sincerely,
Willie Rosin

Willie,

If you would ASK the people who have done these things what it's about and why they use Matchkings and how they overcome what YOU think are insurmountable problems, you would almost surely learn something.

You speak of God's beautiful creatures as though you have respect for them but Boyd & Dave & others don't. How would you know such a thing? Did it ever occur to you that they might be making their statements about humanely killing deer based on experience at humanely killing deer?

Have you asked them how many deer they have shot at and how many they have missed, or, worse yet, wounded? Have you asked others? What is your record?

I am truly sorry that some of us can't at least imagine skills far greater than our own, and maybe even aspire to them. I know that some things seem unbelievable, but after you've seen two or three or four unbelievable things, it becomes easier to open your mind.

Best wishes,
Recono

R-West,Yes when it come's to people who think MK's won't kill an ARMADILLO.Or people who have never seen what A REAL gun will do,or someone who worship's the animal's that were put on this earth for us to KILL.I get very "HUFFY" ...Kind of remind's me of a Place in Africa I think where they cow's are like god....Thousand's starve every year...But they got a few hunderd cattle roaming the street's.Unreal!!!!!!!! ......The video should turn out better than the first....Gonna have a Ground Hog one next year too.I killed one at 750 yard's with a 220 MK in front of two guy's who said YOU CAN'T HIT THAT FROM HERE.I put one of them in my glasses and told him watch.......He yelled,IT LOOKED LIKE YOU DROPPED A F***IN MACK TRUCK ON HIM...Way too cool..........

[ 11-08-2002, 03:20: Message edited by: Boyd Heaton ]

Matchkings on elk,by a wisconsinite. This isn't suprising,since every year or two,one of these idiots kills a moose mistaking it for an elk. After all,the two species do share alot of the same traits,like having four legs. So p dog,did you have to get off your fourwheeler to make the shot,or did you just rest the barrel over the handle bars.

When you Matchking advocates are done beating your chests give this some thought, if you want to really impress the rest of us why dont you try hunting some dangerous game with your beloved target bullets, at CLOSE range when it is YOUR butts on the line and not just the animals.. Now THAT would impress me...!

I could see using them for varminting, I may even try that myself! But give something as tough and majestic as an Elk the benefit of a doubt, It deserves that much.

[ 11-09-2002, 19:23: Message edited by: CHARLESARBUCKLE ]

GODS BEUTIFULL CREATERS? ARENT YOU TRYING TO KILL THE MOTHER FU-C-ERS. Not to be mistaken,I love animals as much as anyone alive,but the object IS to KILL THEM. It dosent matter how you do it there still dead.
As an add on,I limit(4) out on my bow tags every year. I filled both of my muzzleloader tags in two days.I have killed deer with a knife by sneaking up on them, with witnesses.Several wild boar with a knife. BUT WHEN IT COMES TO HUNTING WITH A RIFLE I DO IT ALOT FARTHER.Personaly short range isnt as fun as it once was.It may be because of how many I've killed,but LR gives the challange back.

Yardbird, 2890 is not a missprint.There were several witnesses.

You say thats target shooting,not hunting.

PEOPLE THATS ALL YOUR DOING ONCE YOU RAISE YOUR WEAPON. TARGET SHOOTING...

Also, no offense but 400+yds is a chip shot.Think about it, most LR guns will dropabout 15 to 20in at that range,with a 100yrd zero,wind wont have that much effect(unless its extreme).Lets see thats 3 to 5 minutes of drop ,maybe 2-3 minutes windage, decently steady rest,good shooter =ONE DEAD DEER. EASY.

You say, ''concret benchrest that dosent move'',isnt that what your suposed to do,get the steadiest position possible.

You say, ''large boulder with pad on it as a rest''.Sound pretty much like a rigged bench rest, to me.

You say,''this is as close as I can get to those deer'' ,maybe you need yo work on YOUR fieldcraft?

Boydman, I 'm serious these smart people make me feel like my education is infierier.
I think I got jipped.

P.s. thats my new name for you,if you dont mind.

I AM THE INFANTRY,FOLLOW ME...HOOAH!!!

Charles,don't mind at all.I'm just a dumb hick who can't get closer to game.I shoot them with BIG EARSPLITTIN LOUDNBOOMERS from ahalf a mile out.He is one,I shot a doe two year's ago at 6 yard's,in the butt with a 243.Guess what bullet I was using