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| one of us |
Yeah,, I guess that one will do in a pinch. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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one of us |
p dog shooter- As to your reference to hard cast bullets in pistols, etc: Apparently you do not realize that a .45 or .50 caliber FP's hole all the way through is a heck of a lot more effective than a .30 caliber hole that was made by a pointed projectile which fails to expand. I shoot 320 grain hard-cast LBT-style bullets in my .44 Magnum, and, due to the large meplat (no such thing on a .30 cal MK), it cuts a large wound channel all the way through and is extremely effective on everything from vermin and varmints through deer, exotics and hogs, which I have taken many dozens of. Perhaps a lesson in simple forensics in due here... | |||
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| <Boyd Heaton> |
Big Ugly as I call her is a LITTLE HEAVY(59 pound's) to carry around,but extend's my shooting range to around 250 yard's... | ||
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| <Desert Rat> |
To Bobby:: I knew an old timer growing up. He was a superb woodsman and deer hunter. He used full metal jacketed bullets, because they didn't destroy so much meat. Perhaps some other person can recall incidents where deer were hit through both lungs, and lived. I have never seen it in my experience. I think some of the hunters from New Zealand and Australia, who have experience with thousands of head of game should chime in here. Every time I have seen deer run off for more than a hundred yards, or sometimes a little more, they were hit in such a way that both lungs were not hit. Usually they were hit too far back, but occasionaly too far forward or at a bad angle. My father shot a couple of hundred deer, a lot of them for meat with a .22. His experience was "Hit 'em in the lungs and they run a hundred yards and die. It doesn't matter if it is a .22 or a 30-06. It works the same." By the same token, hit them behind the diaphram, even just a little, and they almost always run and walk quite a ways. Often miles, in my experience. | ||
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Boyd - I just saw the pics of your rifles. They look pretty nice to me. I was wondering how much do they weigh and are they the ones you carry when you are out hunting? Happy Hunting | |||
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| <Boyd Heaton> |
The Grey one weight's 13.5 pounds.And the BIG one is 59 pounds.....The light one can be carried.I only use these two for Long Range style hunting.The grey one is shot off a gun tripod....The heavy one is bench only......... | ||
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Desert Rat- I'm sure many can recall such an incident, especially when the TOP of the lungs was the primary point of impact. In fact, if memory serves, one of the hunts written up in JD Jones' tabloid mentioned just such an incident with a cape buff, which was never located. And when a poor choice of bullet such as the MK is used and it fails to expand, yes, the holes can clot with blood and possibly even heal. I shot a hog a couple of years ago that had scar tissue on the back of both lungs. But there's a person (I will NEVER call him a hunter)in that area who insists on using a .30 carbine for shooting game (and no, I won't call that hunting simply due to the lack of common sense displayed by this individual, who also owns conventional calibers such as a .303 British and 30-06). And, he uses cheap, re-manufactured 110 grain FMJs -- and even boasts of doing so. I frown upon it -- and that is my choice as well as my right. But for every animal he brags about, I shudder to think about those that were wounded and that he would never mention. | |||
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| <Boyd Heaton> |
This is me and one of my carry gun's.OH NO NOW EVERYBODY KNOW'S WHAT I LOOK LIKE  | ||
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| <NeMD> |
Bobby Tomek, I must respectfully disagree with you. Traumatic Pneumothorax, bullet through the lung/lungs, causes air to leak from the lung to the pleural cavity, area between the lung and the chest wall. When this happens the lung then collapses. It is just that simple. So, respectfully, I find it hard to believe in the scenarios you describe that the bullet actually penetrated the pleural cavity, hence we can begin the arguement again about shot placement. | ||
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| <NeMD> |
Gatogordo: Let it go. Matt has explained what he meant, his error in wording is an honest mistake. Don't be so anal retentive. If that is a chronic problem for you I'll prescribe an enema, that is before we take all your money. That way we won't have to worry about you shitting your pants. I have seen Matt shoot. He can do exactly as he claims. I have a couple of rifles that can do it as well, all day long. Who's the asshole now? | ||
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NeMd Thanks for speaking up for me but now that he has started a personal attack on me of which he doesn't understand i am not going to stoop to his idiotsy.Just goes to show how shallow some people are. HEY ya wanna shoot some groups tomorrow to see who can get the smallest one? | |||
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| <NeMD> |
Sure thing Matt. My Nesika is itching to be shot. | ||
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| <Boyd Heaton> |
Matt27,Can I get in on this shootin match too.I can shoot in the .1's too.Think Gatogordo will take the bet ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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Bobby Tomek I found that when people say they have double lunged a critter and it got away and they never found it. How in the hell to they know they doubled lunged it. Most of the time they just can not belive they missed or made a bad shot. So you shoot deer with nonexpanding cast bullet horrors apon horrors If you need a 44 or so with cast bullet to kill how does a little 22 soild rf do it. As you said you were not the guide or the shooter so you just heard that is the case with all most all these so call double lung hits that get away. How does a solid any type of bullet kill. Have you ever shot any thing with a fmj to see the damage they do there isn't a deer around that I would not shoot though both lungs with a fmj and not kill shortly. As all the dead DC snipers victims if fmj do not kill the rest if they would not of lived had they not recived fast medical help would have die shortly. I have yet to see a deer go to a hospital. I have also heard of people finding scar tissue in the lungs are you a pathologist if not I put those tails right up there with the other hunting legends. | |||
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| <Desert Rat> |
quote:As the Buff mentioned was never located, how do they know it was hit in the lungs? Simularity, as this fellow with the .30 carbine seems to hunt quite a bit, don't you think he might give it up if he were losing a lot of game? I believe a lot of what is written in gun magazines is meant mainly to sell rifles. Consider that everyone believes that using solids for dangerous game is just fine, a good idea. Yet a .458 solid on a buff, hippo, or elephant creates a much smaller wound channel, proportionally, than a full metal jacketed .22 on a deer, as these animals are all at at least three times as large as deer linearly. Three times .22 is .66, to make my point clearly. Those engineers amoung us may wish to discuss scalability issues in order to make this into page 6 and 7. | ||
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Desert Rat Actual buff are more then 3 times most likely to be 10 times as large if not bigger. So to kill buff with solids you would need a 2.2 inch or bigger bullet. Any 4 bore hunters out there. Time to bring out the 600 overkill. | |||
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NeMd: Talk is cheap, let's get some money down. How much do you want to bet per group on Matt's shooting ability? | |||
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pd shooter- One more time (the THIRD time)...so maybe you actually get it this time: I was ON THE RANCH AND HELPED LOOK FOR THE BUCK. I conducted my own autopsy. So I didn't just "hear" about it. And yes, the top of the lungs had damage, albeit minor. And yes, the fallow buck was still alive when FOUND the next morning. (THAT'S how we knew of the shot placement; but again, you'd need to read AND comprehend the post to know that.) And yes, I do have quite an interest in forensics, but that's as far as I'll go on the subject... By the way, for you and others who do not know, a FMJ will do lots of damage under 2 conditions: IF it tumbles or IF it strikes major bone along the way. Otherwise, damage is minimal. Hide hunters are fully aware of this. That's why the serious hide hunters still prefer a slow-expanding soft point or a bullet such as the Hornady SX that fragments after minimal penetration. Put a well-stabilized (not long for the twist rate) FMJ between the ribs of a deer and you are asking for tons of trouble -- and have shown tremendous irresponsibility in the process as well... I'm done with this thread. I don't have much patience with those who exhibit such a lack of comprehension due to one-sightedness. | |||
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quote:It doesn't have to do with "scalability." It has to do with LETHALITY, and there are a number of formulas -- not "lineage scales" -- to differentiate. [ 11-09-2002, 20:02: Message edited by: Bobby Tomek ] | |||
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P dog, I refuse to use range finders...Hunting is a sport to me, not a shooting incident... I still prefer the stalk and getting as close as is practical for the situation...I can kill to 400 yards with little effort, but I pretty much limit my shots to 300 yards, unless the devil takes over,then I might weaken and take a 400 yard shot... I hate the idea of wounding and have found that at 300 I never miss so thats my personal limit. I like the 100 yard and under shots best of all, and that is what I strive for. | |||
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I had the opprotunity to hang out with the evil p dog shooter today,yes the evil one who butchers elk with matchkings!!!!! He introduced me to the world of turning rocks at a distance to powder,what a hoot. The .25-06 just pulverized them.I Just discovered this website and recently aquired my first accuracy rifle model 700 remington bdl , free floated and sweet, a Springfield .45 and a GP 100 looking forward to learning reloading and getting alot of cloverleafs at distance. ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} ps- for any who have not yet read THE BOOK, find Unintended Consequences by Jon Ross at your next gun show,long live #2!!!! | |||
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quote:Welcome to the Accurate Reloading fora and long live the quarterbores! ~Holmes | |||
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Boyd What do say if we got you, me, NeMd,Darrell,Dantec,ummmm who else(?) and get together to set up a match to see who can shoot the smallest group.Gatogordo you are welcome to come if this pans out. There is an open challenge to all of us incompetant shooters Boyd.I would go to the bank Gato and refinance the house and cash out any savings you have. AHH you might get lucky a couple of times and win some money when we blink as the trigger is pulled.Would ya still put money on the table when,let's say about 5 of us are shooting for your money at the same time? What ya say Boyd? Would have to be after huntin season cause i got some deer to shoot with some matchkings | |||
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Boyd Remember the only parameters are a 5 shot group in the .1's".any number of sighters just a five shot group at a 100 yards. | |||
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| <Boyd Heaton> |
My gun will shoot .1"s with 3 different bullet's and 4 different powder's......Does it matter which load I use | ||
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| <Howitzer> |
Gee that was a long read! But at least I got in at page five. I didn't read the first matchking thread until page 7. It took me twice as long(longer messages). Is history doomed to repeat itself? It has been less then a year and I doubt if the matchking thread is further than about page ten on the reloading section. Now I know that all game animals worth shooting are snobs and will only let a premium bullet kill them (very discerning taste). These truly majestic animals, poo-poo matchkings so much that their blueblood instantly clots and heals the wound. Only premium bullets coated with the best of intentions(that is:they cost more) will be allowed to kill them. The premiums are so good in fact the mere thought of pulling the trigger will put the animal down. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} But seriously shot placement is the key. I'll back anybody that puts the time in to become proficient at something. How many of you have shot at running deer? I have. How many of you have missed? I have. How many of you have practiced shooting moving targets with your rifles until you could hit them every time? I haven't. How many of you presented with a B&C game animal running at under 100 yards away would take the shot?I WON'T. I would of in my younger years but over time I've realized that I can't hit the broad side of barn if it is moving. So I don't shoot. Sometimes it is hard(like last year when the biggest whitetail I have ever seen(and I've seen big whitetail(approx. 185 B&C from 20 yards as confirmed by sheds, too bad it wasn't hunting season) raced by me at 100 yards. If PDS is confident with his load and distance then I'll congratulate on his kill and wish him good luck in the future.Maybe I should start a thread titled "Your worst miss" and see if anybody would blame themselves instead of blaming their choice of bullets or calibers. I see alot of people giving opinions on stuff they haven't tried. Probably descendents of the people who stood on the shores of Spain when Columbus set sail, and said "We'll never see that fool again". To those that CAN, great! To those that CAN'T, DON'T! | ||
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Bobby Bobby you just keep changing your story. First you just heard about it. Then you talked with the guide. Now you did the autopsy well you make up your mind as to what actualy happened. Yes if you put a fmj between the rib the only way you be in big trouble was if it was illegal to kill the deer. But you told us you will not be back we will see if you can remember that also. | |||
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Boyd To my understanding of his challenge: NOPE!!!!!!!!!! just a 5 shot group in the .1's" Howitzer ThatIMHO is insane to say that only a premium bullet will kill.What do you think happens when you get hit by 3000 foot pounds of energy will do at 600 yards? You really think MK's will seal the veins off and keep them from bleeding? | |||
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Ray like I have said before if it is the stalk that is all important why to you even use a rifle. Getting with in 200s yard or even a 100 yards to shoot them is easy. Take up bow or spear hunting then talk to me about the stalk I have killed plenty of game measured with in feet rather then yards with a bow or handgun. Matter of fact I let 3 does go by at 15 feet yesterday morning could of killed any of them with my bow. I have stalked coyotes and kill them with in feet with my 357 mag. Getting with in 200 yards or 100yards is childs play for a bow hunter it's the last 25 that is hard. No do not talk to me about stalking I can hold mine own with the best of them. | |||
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![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} Matt27 I think Howitzer was just pulling your leg read his post again I find it rather funny. | |||
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p dog LOL prabaly right but why won't someone talk about this? Should another post be started for that? I would just love to hear bobbi's theory on how a lung being pierced even ever so slightly will reinflate? And even if it was shot when it exhaled there was no more air in the lung. I am no medical doc but i remember in biology that there is ALWAYS residule air left after exhaling. | |||
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quote:You know, I said I was done with this thread, but here I go again becasue I do not tolerate a purposeful misrespresention of the facts -- or flat-out lying, for that matter. p-dog shooter, I don't like name calling but must ask: are you an idiot or just can't read.? Show me ONE instance when my story changed. (Maybe your memory of you shooting feats are about as accurate as your interpretation of the facts.) So, for the record, here is a portion of my ORIGINAL post. Maybe this will clear your head (but I would not bet on it). So stop saying that I changed something when the post is clear as a whistle (to those who can read, that is...and notice it says "I've seen" and does not say I "heard")... "I've seen a .30 caliber mK fail miserably on a 175 pound fallow deer -- and that, combined with my own expansion testing, is enough to convince me that Sierra is right on the money when it comes to the MKs.Sometimes they'll work well; other times, the nose may pinch shut, and expansion will be minimal. And other times, they come unglued quicker than the MK defenders when someone questions their choice. As to the fallow deer, a hunter in the Texas Hill country put a nice behind-the-shoulder shot on a fallow buck at a range of perhaps 140-150 yards. The MV of the bullet was, if memory serves, on the order of 2900 fps in the hunter's own handload. The impact was evident through the binoculars as it had been drizzling and the buck's coat was saturated. The guide was sure he'd be down just over the ridge. Well, the buck made it over the ridge -- and quite a ways after that. I put my own hunt on hold to help with the search, and the sparse blood trail finally dried up....." If you want the rest of the details, just go back to the original post and see how full of yourself you really are... | |||
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| <Baldeagle 713> |
BOYD, nice pics. WOW what a read | ||
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Bobby In your post to Desert Rat you said it could have clotted shut and possibly could have healed.True i believe that BUT then the bullet didn't pass through the lungs like you have stated.There is no possible way if it did pass through it could clot fast enough and heal itself.Soif you have some new scientific proof of this i would love to know and am sure the medical field would too.So to say it was the bullets fault is totally untrue and hindsight on your thourough autopsy you did.So even though it was behind the shoulder it was a BAD shot not a FAULTY bullet!!!!!!!!! | |||
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Matt- I never said "through" the lungs as in center-punching them. That is a misrepresentation of what I stated. I noted that the primary path of the bullet included the top of the lungs, a huge difference.(Even with an EXPANDING bullet, a high lung hit can sometimes result in a long tracking job.) But even with this hit, a proper bullet (one that expands) would have caused sufficient disruption of the lungs to put the animal down much quicker than a day later, as was the case when the killing shot was placed. In the instance I cited, the MK did precious little damage, and the hydrostatic shock imparted was absolutely minimal. Had he centered the lungs, yes, the fallow would have likely expired, although not as quickly as it would have with a bullet designed for the task. 'Nuff said... | |||
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Matt- Here's what I said, just to refresh your memory: "A quick examination of the buck indicated the bullet had passed through a rib upon entry and proceeded through the upper portion of the lungs before exiting. The nose may have pinched shut upon impact because there was....." And by the way, it also says "quick examination," not "thorough autopsy" as you referred to somewhat sarcastically. If I had been "thorough," I'd have noted what the animal ate for the last 3 days, the severity or presence of any infestations, the condition of the liver along with much more information than you'd ever want to know. | |||
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| <bigbelly> |
back when I was real young(read that dumb)I got my old wooden cleaning rod stuck in my 58 cal. zouve muzzle loader,I think I was around 13 or so.the wood had absorbed enough water so that you could not move it in any way.first thing I tried was putting it our heavy bench vise and trying to pull straight out,no movement.next tried 3 or 4 days hanging over wood stove in our cabin to dry it out and hopefully shrink it enough to remove it.no way.tried to unscrew breech,no luck.here it comes,took out the nipple(musket size)poured in as much 3f as I could tap in,couldn`t have been much over 15-20 grains,put her back together and after unscrewing the first section,let her rip.I don`t think I actually hit on my ass but seemed like it.I found the 12" piece of wooden rod sticking through a 6" white pine.pretty as any arrow you`ve ever seen.still had the jag but damn if I didn`t lose the patch(hey,maybe could have re-used it)now for such a small amount of powder this seemed like great penetration.well for some reason I never did any further load developement with this projectile,and was told it wouldn`t work well anyway.But,now I am wondering,have any of you geniuses had any experience with this type of load,it worked well on my ONE shot through that tree,maybe just maybe I was on to something here.if anyone else has had luck working up good cleaning rod loads(wood not this metal rod stuff)can you at least share some of it with the rest of us?btw I don`t have a 58 so any suggestions should be for 50cal and under. | ||
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bigbelly.... if it was a matchking style wooden cleaning rod... that is it was designed to clean but used for hunting... it would probably break both shoulders of an elk at 2890 yards and leave a volleyball sized exit wound. But maybe not ... ask Boyd. smallfry | |||
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| <Howitzer> |
Sorry Matt 27 maybe I should have denoted that paragraph as follows: quote: | ||
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![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon}
Only premium bullets coated with the best of intentions(that is:they cost more) will be allowed to kill them. The premiums are so good in fact the mere thought of pulling the trigger will put the animal down.