quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
No the squill did not charge. My first shot hit close and the squill ran to another branch where I nailed it.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Why aren't flat points more popular in rifles?

They are becoming more and more popular. The problem lies in making them feed.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
No the squill did not charge. My first shot hit close and the squill ran to another branch where I nailed it.

Is that Morty?

I see vapodog is still wasting band width with nothing of substance to add. Much like the other of his 25,836 posts, 9 posts a day every day. I guess that he doesn't have time to add anything of importance just needs to run up the post count

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
No the squill did not charge. My first shot hit close and the squill ran to another branch where I nailed it.

WOW, you look exactly as I imagined you would look

You may have a point about the feeding. Jack had a .510 Van Horn that was setup to feed 600 grain Barnes rounded flat point solids, 100% reliably.

NICE gun.

That is precisely the problem. Many factory rifles can't feed the flat-pointed bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
No the squill did not charge. My first shot hit close and the squill ran to another branch where I nailed it.

Is that Morty?

Yup, that's Mortie....the only guy I know of that thinks a .45 ACP is an elk hunting round!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
No the squill did not charge. My first shot hit close and the squill ran to another branch where I nailed it.

Is that Morty?

Yup, that's Mortie....the only guy I know of that thinks a .45 ACP is an elk hunting round!

But obviously not the only fool who thinks muzzle energy is important.

You beat me to it, Hitman......

quote:

I see vapodog is still wasting band width with nothing of substance to add. Much like the other of his 25,836 posts, 9 posts a day every day. I guess that he doesn't have time to add anything of importance just needs to run up the post count

which is where the mental disconnect is on the bigbore rifle side of things, long round nose bullets do not penetrate straight reliably at all, expandables don't either, except in many cases barnes do well if the rifle is really high powered like a 460 weatherby etc, but my 45/70 penetrates like gangbusters with an appropriate bullet like a punch bullet as loaded from grizzly ammo, and the 45/70 evokes an allergic response from that crowd but it's not about the cartridge, it's about the bullet and holding together at the velocity it's shot at.

not fpe minimums set up as regulations by nitwits that just have to have a regulation to write to feel they are important.

points i was trying to make there a couple years ago until i was told by a moderator to quit disagreeing him or be banned, on the big bore rifle forum

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
No the squill did not charge. My first shot hit close and the squill ran to another branch where I nailed it.

Is that Morty?

Yup, that's Mortie....the only guy I know of that thinks a .45 ACP is an elk hunting round!

You are consistent for sure and certain and take cluelessness to places it's never been before and probably shouldn't be

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:

quote:

I see vapodog is still wasting band width with nothing of substance to add. Much like the other of his 25,836 posts, 9 posts a day every day. I guess that he doesn't have time to add anything of importance just needs to run up the post count

which is where the mental disconnect is on the bigbore rifle side of things, long round nose bullets do not penetrate straight reliably at all, expandables don't either, except in many cases barnes do well if the rifle is really high powered like a 460 weatherby etc, but my 45/70 penetrates like gangbusters with an appropriate bullet like a punch bullet as loaded from grizzly ammo, and the 45/70 evokes an allergic response from that crowd but it's not about the cartridge, it's about the bullet and holding together at the velocity it's shot at.

not fpe minimums set up as regulations by nitwits that just have to have a regulation to write to feel they are important.

points i was trying to make there a couple years ago until i was told by a moderator to quit disagreeing him or be banned, on the big bore rifle forum

There are a few more knowledgeable folks on the Big Bore Forum now.

Again your post is spot on a fact that vapodog is too clueless to ever understand

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
which is where the mental disconnect is on the bigbore rifle side of things, long round nose bullets do not penetrate straight reliably at all, expandables don't either, except in many cases barnes do well if the rifle is really high powered like a 460 weatherby etc, but my 45/70 penetrates like gangbusters with an appropriate bullet like a punch bullet as loaded from grizzly ammo, and the 45/70 evokes an allergic response from that crowd but it's not about the cartridge, it's about the bullet and holding together at the velocity it's shot at.

not fpe minimums set up as regulations by nitwits that just have to have a regulation to write to feel they are important.

points i was trying to make there a couple years ago until i was told by a moderator to quit disagreeing him or be banned, on the big bore rifle forum

Yup, if you want to ignite group PMS, just mention the .45/70, Africa, and dangerous game in the same sentence.

oh yes, it is quite the uproar, quite humerous to be honest.

then again, i expect no less from a place and group that feels you can stop an elephant or buff in with a shot in the chest and thinks that the 458 lott is small.

For those that want to hunt cape buffalo with your 45-70, go at it and have a ball.....it's just one of the ways we scrub the Gene pool!

For those that think the .45 ACP is an elk round, have at it too.....frankly I really don't care. I can only say that if you bought the license (my last one was $760 in New Mexico) and paid the transportation and other outfitter fees then hunt the way you want.....Coyotes have to eat too!

What a magnificent group it must be to be able to hold at naught the regulations devised by the Zim PHs regarding the caliber/energy restrictions for the different game classes. What do those guys know, anyway? A few hundred elephant, buffalo, and wildebeest each and they think they are qualified to make those kind of decisions.
_
Energy clearly has no effect, as a 255 gr .45 wide meplatt dropped from 6 feet is as deadly as one going 850 fps, which is as deadly as a 500gr .45 going 2100fps. That's simple enough.
_
And those surgeons who waste their time discussing the widely damaged tissue of high velocity wounds as compared to low velocity should have to go back to school and learn from those who are really in the know-- knowing for example that .45 ACP is adequate for elk hunting, and all other worthwhile shooting info.
--
At least those guys in the BigBore forum have advanced to where they seem to all seem to prefer wide meplatt solids for their imaginary dangerous game hunts, eh? If they draw blood on an African hunt, the license is filled and the trophy fee is due, whether the animal is found or not so that's why they chicken-out and use over-powered stuff. Right?

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155: At least those guys in the BigBore forum have advanced to where they seem to all seem to prefer wide meplatt solids for their imaginary dangerous game hunts, eh? If they draw blood on an African hunt, the license is filled and the trophy fee is due, whether the animal is found or not so that's why they chicken-out and use over-powered stuff. Right?

And gee, where did that idea come from????? Hmmmm, wide meplat flat-nosed bullets for uncompromised, straight-line penetration.....hmmmm.......

No one said that the .45 acp is optimal. The question was posed whether or not it could be used, and under the right circumstances, with the right bullets, it will work. Optimal? Nope.

And then the naysayers showed up and started with their muzzle energy arguements and then someone posted regulations for hunting in Zimbabwe, and it all went downhill from there. I find it rather curious.

and........since i am one of those docs, i guess i have room to speak.

and as far as those ph's, you mean the ones stiiiiiiilll using 1800's tech bullets.

Yes, those who still think Woodleighs are the only bullets to use.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
and........since i am one of those docs, i guess i have room to speak.

and as far as those ph's, you mean the ones stiiiiiiilll using 1800's tech bullets.

2 friends went for Cape Buffalo last year and both took Double guns chambered in 9.3X74. The PH wasn't too keen on them using those "pea shooters" as he called them. Jack told him that he was a gun builder and that the 9.3's would work well. The PH said OK. Both Jack and Shawn took nice mature big hard Boss bulls, without drama or need to track and or chase a wounded animal.

Latter Jake said to his PH I knew that they would work and the PH said "I wasn't so sure until you told me that you were a gun builder and then I believed you"

Yep the PH"s are real ballisticians allright

That's Ganyana's choice, as well, but, he stays with the 286 grain bullets, not the 320's Jack and Shawn used, IIRC.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
That's Ganyana's choice, as well, but, he stays with the 286 grain bullets, not the 320's Jack and Shawn used, IIRC.

Doesn't Ganyana use a bolt action? If so the chambering is not 9.3X74R like the double guns use. I believe that Ganyana uses the 9.3X62 if memory serves

I think his bolt gun is a 9,3x62, and his double is a 375 Flanged Krieghoff.

I talked to him at SCI, he was in the Norma Booth.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I think his bolt gun is a 9,3x62, and his double is a 375 Flanged Krieghoff.

I talked to him at SCI, he was in the Norma Booth.

I think you're right.

I think your right. Why isn't 9.3 X 62 more popular over here?

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
What a magnificent group it must be to be able to hold at naught the regulations devised by the Zim PHs regarding the caliber/energy restrictions for the different game classes. What do those guys know, anyway? A few hundred elephant, buffalo, and wildebeest each and they think they are qualified to make those kind of decisions.
_
Energy clearly has no effect, as a 255 gr .45 wide meplatt dropped from 6 feet is as deadly as one going 850 fps, which is as deadly as a 500gr .45 going 2100fps. That's simple enough.
_
And those surgeons who waste their time discussing the widely damaged tissue of high velocity wounds as compared to low velocity should have to go back to school and learn from those who are really in the know-- knowing for example that .45 ACP is adequate for elk hunting, and all other worthwhile shooting info.
--
At least those guys in the BigBore forum have advanced to where they seem to all seem to prefer wide meplatt solids for their imaginary dangerous game hunts, eh? If they draw blood on an African hunt, the license is filled and the trophy fee is due, whether the animal is found or not so that's why they chicken-out and use over-powered stuff. Right?

The first picture is the exit in the offside rib cage of a 6X7 Bull Elk the wound is from my 300 win with a 180 grain bullet impacting at aproximately 2600 FPS for 2700 FPE. I am holding a loaded 300 win for a size comparison




The next picture is the exit in the offside rib cage of the same Elk. The wound is the result of a 440 grain wide flat point hard cast bullet a muzzle velocity of 950 FPS for 888 FPE.
Again I am holding a loaded 300 win for size comparison




Now tell me again how your "Holy Grail Of FPE" relates to terminal performance?

Here is what I think of when you post these two pictures:

GS

A lot of Blaser shooters are using the 9,3x62.
Go over to Blaserbuds.

I have used the 9,3x74R quite a bit, and if I did not have so much 375 H&H "stuff" I would definately have a 9,3x62 barrel, or two for my R 93

quote:

mete
Posted 05 February 2011 11:25
Possible yes , appropraiate NO. Get yourself a 44 mag or hot loaded 45 Long Colt.

+2 on this one.

quote:

Posted 06 February 2011 23:28 Hide Post
Bfrshooter;
Wouldn't you say it takes more energy to make a bigger hole?

No, I never believed in energy figures. I only believe in how the boolit or bullet works.
Be assured I never think of giving up two holes in any animal.
I am a firm believer in a WLN or WFN.
You really can tinker with a boolit to make it work in all sizes of animals better without a loss of penetration. For larger animals I want a harder boolit but for small deer I feel velocity can change where the boolit works best if real hard.
The velocity you shoot deer with can be about anything as long as you put the boolit to work in the right place in the deer and it goes all the way through.
The size of the entrance and exit holes can be boolit size, you don't need to blow huge holes at boolit exit. You just need the boolit to do the best job inside the animal. That might just need a few points difference in BHN of the alloy.
Sadly the small calibers need more expansion and that kills penetration. To gain penetration with these you need more velocity. More velocity means more expansion so you need to fiddle with the bullet. It ALWAYS comes down to the bullet or boolit.
Take the 30-06 with a 110 gr bullet, a soft nose or ball ammo, all with the same energy. Which bullet would you hunt big game with?
I have seen the .220 swift blow all the hide off the side of a deer yet with the right bullet it is a real killer.
Now the hardest way to kill animals is with real hard boolits in a high power rifle because you are shooting basically ball ammo. You need to make the cast boolit work, not the energy.
The same problem crops up with shooting softer lead from a rifle so you should make the nose do the work, not the whole boolit.
That has been my argument all along. If you shoot slow, medium or fast with the same boolit, just change what the boolit does at the right time for the animal you are hunting. And each size animal needs tweaking what the alloy or nose does.
The big bore revolver really is better because it makes a bigger hole ALL the time and the only way to improve on it is a big bore rifle. Have you noticed that even with a big bore rifle you need to have the right bullet? I don't care if you have tons of energy. One bullet can poke a hole, another is perfect and another can fail.
Why is cast different?

Problem with that theory is the animals don't always cooperate. What happens when you go deer
hunting, and see Hogzilla, or Mr. Bear decides your dinner?

LJ told me his first trip to Africa, he took softs for his .458. The professional hunter took them away, and said we only hunt with solids. What happens when you have a soft for lions, and the biggest elephant you've ever seen decides you need stomping?

Oddly folks find that you don't need a really big bore rifle to get the job done. The 9.3 x 62, .375 H&H, 9.3 X 74R, etc. just flat out seem to work without the extreme big bore rifle
recoil.

What I don't really get is the big bullet thing.
Guys SWEAR by 525 grain, or bigger, bullets, in .510 caliber. Here they swear the 525's hit like the hammer of Thor, and, likewise, it seems 600 grains of .510" solid Barnes rounded flat nose, at 2150 fps is THE stopper.
Seems something happens do to bullet length that makes these bullets hit so much harder then lighter ones? Explain that one to me, or do I just have to take it on faith?

I'll side with JWP475.

This guy was hit @ 15 yds, 45 Colt, 335 gr WFN going 1150 fps. My Shooter program estimates 951 FPE at 15 yds. A bull elk is probably 1/2 the body weight of this bruiser.



Alan

Fantastic moose. Congratulations.
Of course, no 45ACP 1911 can fire a 355 gr bullet at 1150fps and get almost 1000FPE.
A typical 230 gr 45acp at 830 fps is gonna give 350FPE. If you were shooting a hard cast 230 in your 45 long colt, you would have over 3 times the energy of the 45acp. The heavier bullet is obviously better for penetration.
The answer to the OP's question about whether a 45acp is adequate for elk is still a big "NO" as most here have agreed, even though it might work occasionally at certain angles on certain close encounters. But that's not what sport hunting is about.
And no one here is promoting energy as the be-all and end-all. But with the same hard-cast or solid bullit, more velocity (within standard pistol velocities) will give more penetration and more internal damage, resulting in quicker kills. So under those condtions, energy is very important--you wouldn't want to use your bullet at 555fps, but at 1150fps it's packing enough punch to do the job (with four times the energy of the 555fps).
But energy comparisons with the same bullets, animal shooting studies, and surgical description of the differences between high-velocity and low-velocity wounds will not change certain opinions which have been set in concrete.

Maybe half the weight of a bull moose, but there's a world of personality difference, between the two. I've yet to see an elk hang around and give you a good second shot after you botched the first. On the other hand, I've seen moose soak up three or four shots, before it dawned on them, they were dead. Not the brightest animal, in my book.

Grizz

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
Fantastic moose. Congratulations.
Of course, no 45ACP 1911 can fire a 355 gr bullet at 1150fps and get almost 1000FPE.
A typical 230 gr 45acp at 830 fps is gonna give 350FPE. If you were shooting a hard cast 230 in your 45 long colt, you would have over 3 times the energy of the 45acp. The heavier bullet is obviously better for penetration.
The answer to the OP's question about whether a 45acp is adequate for elk is still a big "NO" as most here have agreed, even though it might work occasionally at certain angles on certain close encounters. But that's not what sport hunting is about.
And no one here is promoting energy as the be-all and end-all. But with the same hard-cast or solid bullit, more velocity (within standard pistol velocities) will give more penetration and more internal damage, resulting in quicker kills. So under those condtions, energy is very important--you wouldn't want to use your bullet at 555fps, but at 1150fps it's packing enough punch to do the job (with four times the energy of the 555fps).
But energy comparisons with the same bullets, animal shooting studies, and surgical description of the differences between high-velocity and low-velocity wounds will not change certain opinions which have been set in concrete.

The load that I have been talking about this entire thread -- if you go back and check -- is the Buffalo Bore .45 ACP +P 255 grain hard cast at a speed of 925 FPS. This load is going to exit on a broad side ribcage shot and a .45 bullet through the lungs will bring death rather shortly.

Not an optimal choice but one that will certainly work under certain perameters. I would certainly rather have a .45 Colt with a 300 or heavier bullet in order to shoot and penetrate hard angles if need be, but that was not the original question.

I went to the Linebaugh seminar results.
Closest I can come are:
45 COLT 250 grain RN at 950 penetrates 21"
45 Colt 265 grain Keith 944 fps 24"

Aww, heck, look at the results:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/...enetration.tests.asp

350 grain 45 goes 42 inches at 1187 fps
350 grain at 1030 fps goes 26 inches.

So, one might conclude that the buffalobore, in particular the faster .45 Super 255 grain hard cast move the .45 ACP/Super into the .45 Colt arena, as far as penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
Fantastic moose. Congratulations.
Of course, no 45ACP 1911 can fire a 355 gr bullet at 1150fps and get almost 1000FPE.
A typical 230 gr 45acp at 830 fps is gonna give 350FPE. If you were shooting a hard cast 230 in your 45 long colt, you would have over 3 times the energy of the 45acp. The heavier bullet is obviously better for penetration.
The answer to the OP's question about whether a 45acp is adequate for elk is still a big "NO" as most here have agreed, even though it might work occasionally at certain angles on certain close encounters. But that's not what sport hunting is about.
And no one here is promoting energy as the be-all and end-all. But with the same hard-cast or solid bullit, more velocity (within standard pistol velocities) will give more penetration and more internal damage, resulting in quicker kills. So under those condtions, energy is very important--you wouldn't want to use your bullet at 555fps, but at 1150fps it's packing enough punch to do the job (with four times the energy of the 555fps).
But energy comparisons with the same bullets, animal shooting studies, and surgical description of the differences between high-velocity and low-velocity wounds will not change certain opinions which have been set in concrete.

IT IS NOT ABOUT FPE! Pondoro said this in print decades ago. It is merely a CALCULATED value used for the purpose of selling newer and "better" cartridges to the novice and uninformed. Why have you not caught up with this?

quote:

IT IS NOT ABOUT FPE! Pondoro said this in print decades ago. It is merely a CALCULATED value used for the purpose of selling newer and "better" cartridges to the novice and uninformed. Why have you not caught up with this?

So true! Shoot an animal with a ton of energy at high velocity. The bullet goes through but from bullet construction, it did the job inside but you have to realize it is still going and can punch through trees or a house or kill another animal. Just how much "energy dump" did the first animal get?
The 9mm and .32 are very bad man stoppers, that is fact---but WAIT, seems the right bullet can make them fearsome.