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| One of Us |
I have been thinking about this for some time. While bow hunting I have been 5-20 yards away from elk.During rifle season It should not be any harder. I'm no john wayne but point a hair out, I'll hit it. So from 5 to 40 yards can the 45 humanely kill an elk ? | ||
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| one of us |
Possible yes , appropraiate NO. Get yourself a 44 mag or hot loaded 45 Long Colt. Give careful thought to what what you expect that bullet to do as far as penetration and expansion in an animal of the size you're hunting.Consider less than perfect bullet placement as you'll deal with field conditions. | |||
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| one of us |
I guess if you have shot enough elk so you not worried about not killing one. You should be able to do it. For me I wouldn't want to waste a elk tag on the the slim change of waiting for the perfect shot one would have to have to make it work. | |||
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| One of Us |
I generally make it a practice to not tell others what to do, HOWEVER... Since you asked. That is an incredibly poor idea. CAN it be done...of course. WOULD it be done...in actual practice.... MAYBE, and I'd not go afield with only a "MAYBE" to count on. My respect for the animal transcends any desire to perform some kind of STUNT HUNT. | |||
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| One of Us |
It's a terrible idea IMO. | |||
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One of Us |
+1 Anyone hunting for sport owes it to the animal to use a cartridge that ensures a quick and humane death if hit appropriately. To me, anything less than 1000 ft lb of energy at the target(elk) would be ridiculous. The 45 acp has less than half this energy at the muzzle. Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
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| one of us |
I decided years ago if I am serious about killing something when out hunting I take a rifle of proper cailber. If by law or season I will use a bow, handgun or muzzle loader. If I just want to make it harder also then it bow, handgun, or muzzle loader. | |||
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| one of us |
Surprisingly, as long as the 45ACP was fired in a " manually operated centerfire rifle or handgun at least 27 caliber, using all lead projectiles or bullets of at least 130 grains designed to expand on impact" it would be perfectly legal here in Pennsylvania. Personally, I think if fired from a Colt 1911 or similar semi-auto, they might just bounce off a good sized bull elk.  | |||
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| One of Us |
It is about the same ratio wise as someone hunting you with a 22lr................... | |||
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One of Us |
Yes, if the correct load is chosen it should work just fine. If I were going to use the 45ACP, I would go with the Buffalo Bore 255 grain hard cast +P load at 925 FPS or a near duplicate hand load _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
Energy is a poor way to rate lethality. I can assure you that the Buffalo Bore 255 RNFP hard cast +P at 925 FPS will exit on broad side shots and a 45 caliber projectile through the vitals will bring rapid incapacitation _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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One of Us |
It's not a good idea JMHO | |||
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| One of Us |
How about a 45 Colt with a 260 grain bullet at 900 FPS? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
Hits thru the lungs with the mentioned handgun loads might lead to "rapid incapacitation" or they may more easily lead to miles of poor blood trail and a lost animal. If you're gonna hunt big game, do it with a load that will destroy lots of lung tissue on such a mentioned shot. High velocity wounds are much more efficient killers than low velocity rounds. If its a canned hunt for bison or elk, then the handgun won't make much difference, as the animal won't suffer long until its finally put down. In Zimbabwe, elk sized critters can only be hunted with cartridges developing over 2000FPE. That might be a good idea for some of the elk hunting states to look at: "Class A game ■Elephant, buffalo, hippo ■A minimum bullet diameter of 9.2mm and energy level of 5,300 joules (3,910 ft-lbs) is required. In practice this means a 9.3x62 as the minimum caliber but most operators regard the .375 H&H or 9.3x64 as the minimum. ■A special permit is required for hunting Class A game with a bow. Class B game ■Lion, giraffe, eland ■A bullet diameter of at least 7mm (.284) and an energy level of 4,300 joules (3,170 ft-lbs) is necessary. ■In practice, a 7mm Remington Magnum with a 175 grain bullet is the minimum. Most operators would regard the .300 Magnum as the minimum while many require a .338 Winchester Magnum as the minimum for lion. ■A compound bow with a draw weight of at least 35 kg (77 pounds) and an arrow of minimum 45 gram (702 grains) is required. The broadhead may have only two cutting edges. Class C game ■Leopard, crocodile, hyena, kudu, sable antelope, blue wildebeest, waterbuck, zebra, nyala, tsessebe, hartebeest, gemsbok, blesbok ■A bullet diameter of at least 7mm (.284) and an energy level of 3,000 joules (2,115 ft-lbs) is necessary. ■In practice this means a 7x57mm Mauser with a 140 grain bullet. ■A compound bow with a draw weight of at least 32 kg (71 pounds) and an arrow of minimum 40 gram (624 grains) is required. Class D game ■Warthog, impala, reedbuck, bushbusk, sitatunga, jackal and animals smaller than 25 kg (56 lbs). ■A bullet diameter of at least 5.56mm (.22) and an energy level of 850 joules (630 ft-lbs) is necessary. ■In practice this means a .22 Hornet with a 45 grain bullet. However, most professional hunters will require a larger caliber like a .243." Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
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| One of Us |
A better idea would be to use a bullet that penetrates deeply enough to perferate the vitals. All that energy is not much good if the bullets integrity good enough to penetrate deeply I am glad that the bear and Moose couldn't read and didn't realize that I din't have the minimum 2000 FPE, but since they didn't know they fell to only one shot each from my revolver. I took the Bear and the Moose in the left of the photo  Another 1 shot kill and the bullet exited without 2000 FPE  Another kill without 2000 FPE and the bullet exited through both shoulders and breaking the main support bone in the shoulder and the Asain Buffalo went no where  To claim that a minimum of 2000 FPE is required is ridiculous _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
My only real problem is that he may not get as close to the elk in rifle season as he does in bow season. . Rifle for longer shots would make me feel better if I drew an elk tag. | |||
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Not getting close enough is a legitimate concern. Given the parameters of the opening post to a max of 40 yards it is certainly doable _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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JWP475; Just reread that............missed the 40 yard thing entirely........ Ethics..........much better than someone blazoing away with a rifle and not having any. . The man may be better with that 45ACP than some are with their super custom magnum....... . The man maybe one of the minority who is asking a real question. . NOT like the guy on a welding forum who's first post is a question: What welder should I buy? No budget, no type, no material. . Okay John, you have got me on this one........ . Guess I was answering the question I heard instead of the question he asked. . Hell when you think of it. There are people who hunt Marine Special Ops with a 223...........I would rather hunt elk with a 380.............. | |||
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| One of Us |
Under the pareameters that the OP set IMHO properly loaded with a heavy hard cast and driven to 900 or so FPS it will work. Not the best choice by no means and one would need to pick his shot well IMHO. I would look for a broadside shot into the rib cage. A 45 Colt with a 300 grain hard cast at 1200 or so FPS with a wid flat point would be a great choice IMHO _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
If we look hard enough we can find a way to justify any caliber for game & I'm sure its been done in a pinch, but there are so many ways that are better when taking on an elk. These kinds of discussions come up several times a year, one time a guy told me elephants had been taken with the 22 LR....well, how do you argue with that, you don't. Most of us consider these types of things to be in the "stunt" class, yes it will work but please don't do it, elk are very, very tough. Dick | |||
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| one of us |
I have shot whitetail deer and mule deer with a 45ACP. It did the job, but not in an impressive way. When I carry a 45 ACP in the field I carried 230gr ball, and later, the Buffalo Bore 230gr FP +P. The cast 255 gr load would be better, IMHO but was not around when I carried the 1911 as a backup on a couple of bear hunts. If I did hunt elk on purpose with a handgun, a 44 Mag with a 240gr hard cast, full power load would be my minimum. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Thanks guys for the answers. YES this is a legitimate question. It looks like NO is the most answered. I know it could be done,but I know how tough an elk is. So thats why I asked. It looks like this is one of those I wish ideas. | |||
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| One of Us |
General guidelines for Roosevelt elk and humane kills is 2,000 ft. lbs. bullet energy at the target. 45 ACP doesn't come close. Besides which, you can't find a 45 ACP bullet designed to penetrate and kill tough hide, large animals. 45 ACP is designed and intended for anti-personnel defense, and so that's the bullet design for this caliber. An arrow makes a large wound channel, deeply, and the animal bleeds out. I don't think it's particularly humane, but then I view elk as some of my personal front yard pals. | |||
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And you are hard pressed to find any hunting handgun round (.454 Casull, .480 Ruger, .475 Linebaugh, .500 Linebaugh, .500 JRH, etc.) that "produces" (actually, ME is a calculated figure not something that can be measured) that comes anywhere near 2,000 ft-lbs. It is a meaningless figure, that has no merit and is an absolutely poor way of determining lethality. You certainly can find loaded ammo from companies such as Buffalo Bore, and Double Tap that are loaded with heavy, flat-nosed hardcast that are more than up to the task of penetrating -- as long as the shooter does his part and is close enough. Is it optimal? No, but it never ceases to amaze me how folks immediately throw up their hands in protest at the suggestion of using a .45 acp for anything but personal defense. Rothke, do you hunt much with a handgun? Just curious. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| One of Us |
Yes, if you think like a bow hunter. The 45acp will give just enough to poke a hole in the lungs, but not much more. And the animal isn't going to bleed out like they would from an arrow. Next time you get one down, pop a few holes in it with the 45acp and see what you think. Well, at least have an OK day  | |||
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| one of us |
Dia and this fella are really telling the truth. Poking a hole just sucks and without internal damage you are going to lose the animal unless you can watch it until death. Why does anyone think a hole is enough? Most love a large caliber rifle with tons of energy but think a revolver that pokes a hole is as good. You NEED energy in the right place. You need to transmit the energy to the animal at the right time. More agree but some post the same tired crap. I am sure if I shoot a bison with a .22 and followed it for days, it might die but it also can recover. Poking a hole through an animal does not make it dead. | |||
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| One of Us |
Bfrshooter; Wouldn't you say it takes more energy to make a bigger hole? | |||
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One of Us |
 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
I can tell you why I like to poke holes, because holes through the vitails kills and kills quickly 45 Colt WFN at about 1150 FPS muzzle velocity impact about 50 yards   Bullet exited, now try that with a 55 grain 22 cal varmint bullet at 3600 it has a lot more energy, but will not give the penetration or exits Energy is a poor way of rating lethality. My 338 Lapua with a 300 grain SMK has more energy than a 458 win with a 500 grain bullet, I know which one is a better cartridge for Elephant. Hint it ain't the Lapua _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
jwp, your hot loaded 45 certainly performs better than would standard 45 caliber loads. Your loads also have about twice the energy of standard .45ACP commercial loadings. The Thompson-LaGarde beef-killing efforts with different caliber pistols from .30 to .476 showed how inadequate standard loads are for elk-sized game in .45. The beeves went from 750-1300lbs--i.e. from large RockyMtn Bull to large Roosevelt bull in weight. They shot 13 different animals. The only one that died with one shot was from a .30 Luger. Most took 5-10 shots, and were then killed with a hammer after several minutes. http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
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One of Us |
Definitely a bad idea; the .45 is a very poor penetrator and little energy for an elk. Once I had a supply sergeant who decided to off himself; he took a .45 with hardball ammo and shot himself in the stomach with it. Thinking that was a poor idea, he proceeded to drive himself to the hospital, and made a full, quick recovery. Of course, that was a gut shot...but you get the idea. | |||
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| One of Us |
If it was all I had I would use it.But with other choices in the gun safe..This is not a set in stone goal of mine..I was just looking for opinions on the subject. And the majority has given good explanation why my idea is a bad one. Thank you. | |||
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| Moderator |
Vapo, have you taken much game with a handgun? Even a .22-250 can boast more "muzzle energy" than a .500 Linebaugh. Can you guess which one is better for big game? Not trying to be combative, but you come here and fly the B.S. flag and you offer no explanation for your opinion on this matter. All we have is a large diameter, heavy bullet with very limited velocity. As I said before, I don't think it is optimal -- actually pretty far from it, but if one uses the right bullets, gets close, and places his shot well, it should work. That was the OP's original question/concern. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| Moderator |
Ball ammo is a poor choice for any hunting situation. It is the bullet that is the limiting factor more than anything else. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| One of Us |
The smart money in on NO!!! This is the exit in the offside of a 6X7 Bull Elk made from a 300 Win witha a 180 grain bullet with an impct velocity of about 2600 FPS calculating to 2700 FPS I am holding an unfired 300 Win for size comparison  This is the exitin the off side rib cage of the same Elkk, made from a 500 JRH revovler with a 440 grain wide meplat Hard Cast with a muzzle velocity of 950 FPS for a calculated 888 FPE I am again holding an unfired 300 Win for size comparison  The wound from the revolver with 888 FPE at the muzzle was larger from start to finnish. The bullet exited the Elk and buried into the ground beyound the Elk deeper than I could dig with my fingers and was not recovered FPE is a very poor way to rate lethality _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
wow, it appears that there's some of the "know it alls" from the big bore forum hanging around, ya know, the place where a 458 lott is considered small. anyway, vapodog, you really don't know much about this and show your lack of experience in matters concerning handguns and hunting with them. not one waterbuff, bison, or any other well over 1500lb game animal knew my 454 didn't have 2K 3K or 5K in muzzle energy. it's not about the caliber, it's about the bullet. to quote how poor the penetration of the 45 acp is and then quote results from hollow points and hardball. totally irrelevant, unless you discuss results with flatpoint hardcasts. end of story. | |||
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| One of Us |
+1........ Spot on......  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
One of the great things about African hunting is that even if you only draw blood you still pay the trophy fee.....yes...even if you don't ever get it down or ever see it again.....and the daily fee is the same if one actually gets anything or not! Essentially it's a put your money where your trigger finger is! A lot fewer people would use substandard firearms if that was the case in the US! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Substandard by whose definition? Yours? I tend to agree with tradmark when it comes to assessing your knowledge on the subject _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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