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Originally posted by vapodog:
One of the great things about African hunting is that even if you only draw blood you still pay the trophy fee.....yes...even if you don't ever get it down or ever see it again.....and the daily fee is the same if one actually gets anything or not!

Essentially it's a put your money where your trigger finger is!

A lot fewer people would use substandard firearms if that was the case in the US!

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So, does this mean you've never taken game with a handgun?

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Originally posted by vapodog:
For folks that say that energy means nothing, I'm wondering why we just don't use the .25 ACP.....

Further we say to "get close".....why? Are we not comfortable with our shooting abilities?.....or do we just want to conserve the velocity.....(=energy)

I'm not going to play the eternal pissing contest some folks love to play here.....and will simply say that I only wish there was a trophy fee that had to be paid even if one merely drew blood......and yes.....a .45 ACP will do that and at a bit longer range than the 40 yards mentioned here.

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Originally posted by vapodog:
For folks that say that energy means nothing, I'm wondering why we just don't use the .25 ACP.....

Further we say to "get close".....why? Are we not comfortable with our shooting abilities?.....or do we just want to conserve the velocity.....(=energy)

I'm not going to play the eternal pissing contest some folks love to play here.....and will simply say that I only wish there was a trophy fee that had to be paid even if one merely drew blood......and yes.....a .45 ACP will do that and at a bit longer range than the 40 yards mentioned here.

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Originally posted by tradmark:
funny thing is anywhere i've hunted buff, which has all been in this country, you paid if you drew blood here as well as africa.


my son just shot an oryx this last weekend and he killed it deader than dirt with a .308 and they've had much larger calibers fail to penetrate in rifle calibers and in every instance it's the hunters not using appropriate bullets. it's in the bullet far more than it is in the caliber and fpe. it's why numerous pistol calibers have been used on frontal brain shots on elephant and worked like a champ and 600 NE have failed to penetrate the brain in many many instances. it's the bullet construction and nose profile, something the big bore rifle guys are light years behind on.

bullet construction is also the answer to the ole' 458 wm dilema, not a magic 2150 fps so many strive for, use a flat nosed punch bullet and it'll penetrate for days and much better than a round nosed 458 lot or 500 gibbs in many instances.

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Originally posted by cottonstalk:
I wonder if the settlers that moved west with there black powder loadings and later with those 32-20,38-55,45colts,30wcfs and such new it took 2000ftlbs to kill?Must not have mattered much have you seen how populated the US is lately?Somebody had to eat to get us all here.

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Two kinds of guns were the main reliance of the explorers. Lewis obtained fifteen rifles at Harpers Ferry Arsenal in the spring of 1803. Apparently these were the “1792 Contract Rifle,” modified for the expedition with Harpers Ferry model 1803 locks and patchboxes. They were plain, Pennsylvania-style rifles, with no ornamentation, hand-made by gunsmiths in Pennsylvania. Full stocked, they had an original barrel length of 42 inches, which was likely shortened a bit for the expedition, and caliber at least 49 and perhaps as large as 54.

The other gun of daily use was the “Charleville pattern” musket, the standard firearm of US soldiers of the period. It is a 69 caliber smoothbore, and is now called the “Model 1795 Springfield” musket. Both the rifle and musket weighed nearly ten pounds and required most of a minute to load a single patched shot. Powder horns, powder measures, patching, and lead balls were required accessories. Lewis devised lead powder canisters, each holding 4 pounds gun powder and made with 8 pounds of sheet lead which was used to cast into bullets. The expedition began with 51 of the powder canisters (mostly with rifle grade powder) and some wooden kegs of powder, size not known.

Clark brought a small 36 caliber “squirrel rifle,” and an “elegant fusil,” a light-weight gentleman's sporting smoothbore. Lewis brought a case of matched pistols, one of which he traded for a horse, and a "fowler," an extra-long smoothbore, also traded to the Indians for supplies. Both captains carried a “horseman's pistol” either the “US 1799 North and Cheney” model, similar to the French Charleville 1763 pistol, or the “US 1799 Contract” pistol (McCormick model), both now great rarities.

Lewis's air gun was a remarkable property of the expedition. Widespread agreement is that it was a Girandoni-style air rifle, originally designed and built in Europe for the Austrian army. The Girandoni was .46 caliber, had a magazine for 20 shots, and was a repeater. Lewis used it to impress Indians in council. It was smokeless, and could fire 20 shots in one minute. The Indians wereimpressed. The air gun was the most unusual piece of equipment on the expedition. Air guns of that period and caliber are not silent and make a very loud crack.

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Vapo, if you don't hunt with a handgun and don't aprove of the way we do things, why do you come here?

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Originally posted by vapodog:

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Vapo, if you don't hunt with a handgun and don't aprove of the way we do things, why do you come here?

Who says I don't hunt with a handgun.....?

I've owned five .44 Magnum revolvers, one .41 Magnum and a .357 Magnum and am not a newcomer to handgunning or hunting with the same.

Said I didn't have much use for one....never said I didn't know how to use one!

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Said I didn't have much use for one....never said I didn't know how to use one!

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Originally posted by jwp475:

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Vapo, have you taken much game with a handgun?

The smart money in on NO!!!


This is the exit in the offside of a 6X7 Bull Elk made from a 300 Win witha a 180 grain bullet with an impct velocity of about 2600 FPS calculating to 2700 FPS

I am holding an unfired 300 Win for size comparison




This is the exitin the off side rib cage of the same Elkk, made from a 500 JRH revovler with a 440 grain wide meplat Hard Cast with a muzzle velocity of 950 FPS for a calculated 888 FPE

I am again holding an unfired 300 Win for size comparison



The wound from the revolver with 888 FPE at the muzzle was larger from start to finnish. The bullet exited the Elk and buried into the ground beyound the Elk deeper than I could dig with my fingers and was not recovered

FPE is a very poor way to rate lethality

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Originally posted by tradmark:
my uncle has had 3 .44 mags, killed alot of deer with one, for his 65th birthday we took him buffalo hunting. he decided he'd try handgun hunting, showed up with 240 grain remington softpoints, same as he'd used for 30 or 40 years, had to use mine with buffalo bore hardcasts, think of it, after shooting proficiently for over 40 years he had no idea what was an appropriate load to use on a buffalo. he'd have used it and gone on to mouth off about how hard it is to kill a buff even with a .44 mag. thankfully i took him, one shot through both shoulders and he tells everyone how great his handgun worked, now he's taken bear with it.

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Originally posted by swampshooter:
JWP, I'm assuming you meant a 1,000 pound buffalo.

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Reply

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Originally posted by tradmark:

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Reply

vapodog, you should watch lynn thompson from cold steel shoot waterbuff with low powered .44 mag loads that are not ideal for the job mow over waterbuff with it in handgunning down under. you'd see what you could do with your .44 mag with proper shooting skills

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Originally posted by vapodog:
For folks that say that energy means nothing, I'm wondering why we just don't use the .25 ACP.....
It's asinine remarks like this that let me know just how little you really know about this.
Further we say to "get close".....why? Are we not comfortable with our shooting abilities?.....or do we just want to conserve the velocity.....(=energy)
Considering there is no conservation of energy to begin with, getting closer just seems like the "hunting" thing to do. Anyone can take the latest and greatest cartridge with the most energy and snipe game while they squat to pee.
I'm not going to play the eternal pissing contest some folks love to play here.....and will simply say that I only wish there was a trophy fee that had to be paid even if one merely drew blood......and yes.....a .45 ACP will do that and at a bit longer range than the 40 yards mentioned here.

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Originally posted by cottonstalk:I find it interesting when people with little or no experience with taking game with handguns try to tell those who do that our weapons are simply not up to the task,and that nothing short of a TCM will do.

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Originally posted by GS:
What kind of bullet was used in the .300 Win Mag?
Ball?

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Originally posted by RMiller:
Dont go hacking on the 25 ACP. I killed a bull squirrel with my Baby Browning this fall. Hit broadside at 10 yards right behind the shoulder. The bulleted exited and he was DRT.

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What kind of bullet was used in the .300 Win Mag?
Ball?

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Originally posted by GS:
Just gathering information. I'm surprised the .300 Win Mag penetrated both sides, if it was an expanding bullet.

I'm delighted with the 440's at 950 results, since I have about a 1000 rounds of that loading sitting in a box.

Thank you for the excellent information.

Was the elk shot with the 300 win mag first, or with the .500JRH? What was the reaction to the hit, or hits?

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Originally posted by larrys:
jwp475, I think vapodog maybe made you somewhat defensive. GS just asked about the 300 bullet. I was just curious as well. Whitworth said he thought it was a TSX, but you never confirmed.

BTW, I agree with you and trademark, whitworth, et. al. A GOOD hardcast bullet, even in the ACP will put an elk down given proper range.