Let me set the scene. You are hunting trophy bull elephant, and have been on the hot trail of three elephant for several hours in very thick bush. A leg here, there's an ear, but never a whole ele to study, let alone compare all three bulls. The elephant are feeding and moving, and it is work to stay with them and get positioned for the shot. They could become alerted to your presence at any time, and could easily head for parts unknown. Occasional glimpses of the tusks indicates one is a very good bull. Let's say you are hunting in Zim, and it appears the big bull may go 50+ pounds. Not huge by Botswana standards, but pretty big for the area in Zim.
Suddenly you are within 20 yards of a bull presenting a classic side brain shot, but you can't see the tusks as the front of his head is obscured by the bush. The PH says "I saw the tusks, its him, Shoot him NOW!" You take the shot, drop the ele cleanly, and walk up to find a bull with 15-20 pound tusks. Clearly not the right elephant. You both do see the big ele as he crashes off with the third elephant after the shot.

What can you expect from the PH in this situation? He is clearly sorry, and knows he got it wrong. On the other hand, you pulled the trigger. It's your bull, right? The government game scout is right there, has seen everything. There isn't any hiding a dead elephant. What would you expect from your PH?

Bill

What a tough one. Most PHs working hard to get their clients the best trophy they can, their reputations depend on it. Legally, unless your contract stipulates a certain size elephant, there's not much you can do. However, I am sure you could work something out with the PH. I would try to get a discount on a future hunt to say the least.

Good luck
John

From memory.....

George Hoffman had a client shoot an elephant that he believed would go X pounds.

When the dust settled it became clear that the elephant was a dwarf of sorts. The tusks turned out to be something like 1/2 X pounds.

George paid the trophy fee an allowed the client to take another.
This was from memory.....



I was also told that reputable outfitters will provide a new hunt(for free) for a client if the client's tusks are stolen from the trophy shed. An outfitter I hunted with almost had to do this but the tusks were recovered with the help of a witch doctor.

Why rush the shot... Keep trailing and make positive id of the big ivory.. That small ivory the ele would also be smaller...

Just like a game of chess advance and left and right moves also...

Mike

That's a tough one. The hunter, not the PH, is the one who finally decides on whether or not to pull the trigger.

Not ele...but I had a PH that hd me shoot a cow hippo . I asked a number of times where the bumps for teeth were on a bull, he told me something, don't remember what, but assured me the hippo was a big bull. He studied it for 25 minutes at under 75 yards with binos. I shot it, killed it, and when it rolled up, he told me, "we have a problem. It's a female." Then he said, "sorry, we're all human - too bad." I asked the safari operator/owner to adjust costs, make things right...basicailly, I was told "tough luck, pay up and shut up". I did as I don't ever want to be accused of not paying my bill...but it was a PH with 30+ years experience, and one of the biggest operators in Africa...Oh well...live and learn...I was inexperienced, and I guess you have to put trust in your PH's hands. There is always a chance of getting screwed or a mistake. In my case, I know I got screwed. The PH wanted the hunt over as early as posible, and just wanted me to shoot...

I would certainly reduce the amount of the tip!

A good PH/outfitter is going to cover you one way or another, it might be the trophy fee, see you next year, something that equates to the severity of the mishap/my bad. I personally would like to see the trophy fee covered (PH keeps the ivory) and a good discount on a trophy ele in the future if that was the major trophy sought during the hunt. If your hunting lion, ele, buff, leopard, etc. the covering of the trophy fee would be acceptable IMO.

I am going to be a contrarian here.

I had a very similar experience to the hypothetical presented above. We tracked two bulls into a thick patch of jess. The bulls kept moving around in the thicket and we would catch brief glimpses of each and then they would disappear. They started getting nervous and were about to bolt. We rounded a corner and saw the bull we thought to be the biggest facing us. I was told to shoot, I took the shot and the bull dropped to a perfect frontal brain shot. When we approached the PH -- not me -- acknowledged that it was the smaller of the two bulls. He seemed almost apologetic. Turns out that the bulls had swapped positions in the bush just as we rounded the corner. I never hestitated, I told the PH that it was my bull, I was proud of it, I was proud to have hunted it, the trackers had done an outstanding job and the bull was killed with a perfect frontal brain shot. It was not the PH's fault, it was not my fault, it was simply the way things played out in the uncertain game we call hunting. If the quality of my hunt and my enjoyment of the experience was going to depend on whether or not we shot the bigger of the two in thick bush, I would just as soon stay home. Would I rather have shot the bigger bull, would my PH have rather I shot the bigger bull, sure. Was my hunt any less memorable or enjoyable, absolutely not. One of the problems I have with society today is any time there is a problem we have to find someone to blame or hold responsible. Fact is sometimes, despite our efforts, things just go wrong or not as we would have planned. Wish I could hunt that bull again tomorrow.

Another none elephant experience but a proffesional error.
My wife paid for me to go on a guided stalk for a Roe buck. The guide turned up an hour late but assured me he could put me on to a buck. It was made clear that I was not looking for a trophy animal just some meat for the freezer. Off we went.
Within 5 mins of stalking the guide said
"There's a buck shoot it". I did so.
When we got up to the animal the guid was a little upset, he remarked that the animal was of bronze medal standard,
"Bloody hell I could have charged a lot of money for that head".
I reminded him that I had made it clear that I was not after a trophy.
"Fair enough, I told you to shoot, you won't have to pay for the trohy head which you can have at no charge, just pay for the venison". he said.
I paid the going market price for the venison which I was expecting to do.

In my view, when you pay for proffesional services, no matter what the activity; hunting, dentistry, medicicne, building or what ever, if the pro makes a mistake then he/she should stand any error or loss and if possible put things right.

In the case of the elephant the right thing was to do as Mr Hoffman did.

If it was me, I'd say that I pulled the trigger and I would take full responsibility.

Any of the PH's that I've met would feel badly about it and likely try to make up for it some in some way on that hunt or a future one -- but I wouldn't think it necessary.

This kind of thing happens from time to time in hunting -- it's what makes it fun.

Tough question. There is no answer that will fit every hunter.

The answer depends on the hunters perception of the roll of the ph and his responsibility in the outcome of the hunt.

If the ph is there to do the hunting for him and make all decisions, it is the ph's fault.

If the hunter takes an active roll in the hunting and learns to identify and actively participate in the trophy judging and take all responsibility for the outcome of the hunt, he will blame himself for not being certain.

Neither stance is wrong or right. It just is what it is.

MJines, nice post. With an attitude like that you are almost always going to have an enjoyable hunt, come what may. I sometimes think we can lose sight of the fact this is all supposed to be fun!
Bob

It happened to me with steinbucks darting through the brush my PH found him with a little hole to shoot through, when I fired I could only see the shoulder but my PH told me he was over 3 inches. We walked up to her and my PH told me he just bought a steinbuck, I told him if he would find me a male he did not have to buy it I would pay for it. 5min. later I had a great pair of steinbucks.

quote:

Originally posted by OldHandgunHunter:
If it was me, I'd say that I pulled the trigger and I would take full responsibility.

Any of the PH's that I've met would feel badly about it and likely try to make up for it some in some way on that hunt or a future one -- but I wouldn't think it necessary.

This kind of thing happens from time to time in hunting -- it's what makes it fun.

+1

Mike, that's the best post I've seen in a long time. Great attitude. Thanks.

I had a very similar thing happen on buffalo last year. We were playing cat and mouse with a herd for most of the morning and had identified a shootable bull that kept giving us the slip. Finally around noon the herd started moving again and we kept pace with them at a slow jog. As we came out of a brushy area my PH pointed to a bull with only his body showing his head was in the brush and I couldn't see it. The PH says there he is shoot him. I asked "are you sure"? The reply was yes I'm sure "shoot quickly". I did and just after I pulled the trigger and the bull jumped and bounced off the PH says "whoops that wasn't the same bull. But he was just as good."

Turns out that not only was he not "just as good" but he was one horned and a one horned bull that I had specifically turned down earlier in the day. No apologies were offered besides the initial admission of a screw up from the PH nothing not a damn thing was offered.

I found the whole situation to be fairly low rent.

I dont believe that the dilemna is that big an issue.

Hypothical of course, but any hunter should know that even if the PH says XYZ it is the sole and (final discression of the hunter) if and when he pulls the trigger.

WE are all told or taught from a young age that you must (clearly identify your target) before shooting, that is why a lot of hunters in the USA and also here in NZ get killed by their friends or others, they dont (clearly identify the target) first before shooting ...

The second issue brings into question why hunters should not hunt with tape measures or scales., the size of the tusks and/or horn spread of a buff or plains game should not be the main aim of a hunt, the actual stalk and hunting experience and the trophy you personally get (regardless of size) should be more important than mines bigger than yours.

Cheers, Peter

I think that Mike Jines and Oldhandgunhunter have it right. Those are both very good viewpoints on the subject.

Why do we hunt? Is it solely for a trophy of a certain size? Or, did you buy a HUNT? If all you want is a trophy of a certain size, you can have it made for you. Tusks can be made from fiberglass in any size. You CANNOT just purchase the experience, and that is why, in my opinion, we should be hunting - for the experience, no matter how it turns out.

To Mike and Oldhandgunhunter,

Sirs thank you for posting the most sense that i have seen on this site for a while now, hunting with you two would be right up my alley.

When out hunting at actually almost everyday i have a little saying that helps me deal with most situations / african incompetence "ah f@#k shit happens"

Cheer

Aubrey

Ultimately, it is YOUR responssibility. You pulled the trigger.

Also, Many a PH working for an operator cannot afford that kind of fee, and the quota is not his to give you a replacement.

The operator may never hire that PH again if he belives it was the PH's fault, the client may not give him a tip, but certainly in Zim, the man who pulled the trigger is the man who pays the bill.

The only exception is...

On a night lion hunt on private land, a young male lion came into the bait. He was OK - fully grown, but with no great mane. The client wasn't the best shot in the world and the PH (who also happened to own the safari company) had a personal pollicy of always backing his clients up...

Shoot, shoot! Client took a long time looking over the lion, bought his rifle up, looked through the scope and had just decided that it wasn't good enough when the PH's rifle went off! He had been "hanging on the tigger" (ie hoping to get his shot off so close to the clients that the client would never know he had fired (a common PH tick)- unfortunately the client hadn't fired.

Equally unfortunately the appie let the cat out of the bag, and folks still ask him if he has the taste of crow in his mouth every time he sees a lion

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Also, Many a PH working for an operator cannot afford that kind of fee, and the quota is not his to give you a replacement.

The operator may never hire that PH again if he belives it was the PH's fault, the client may not give him a tip, but certainly in Zim, the man who pulled the trigger is the man who pays the bill.

The only exception is...

On a night lion hunt on private land, a young male lion came into the bait. He was OK - fully grown, but with no great mane. The client wasn't the best shot in the world and the PH (who also happened to own the safari company) had a personal pollicy of always backing his clients up...

Shoot, shoot! Client took a long time looking over the lion, bought his rifle up, looked through the scope and had just decided that it wasn't good enough when the PH's rifle went off! He had been "hanging on the tigger" (ie hoping to get his shot off so close to the clients that the client would never know he had fired (a common PH tick)- unfortunately the client hadn't fired.

Equally unfortunately the appie let the cat out of the bag, and folks still ask him if he has the taste of crow in his mouth every time he sees a lion

What an idiot... I am sure he changed his practice backing up clients..

I think there's far too many variables here to give a pat answer. So much depends on the PH & client concerned, country the hunt is taking place in (game & licencing laws differ from country to country), what's stipulated in the contract and to some extent, species concerned.

I guess the closest to a short answer has already been given by Mike/Retreever and Saeed.

At the end of the day, the PH can't see what the client is seeing through his scope...... only the client can do that and only the client can pull or not pull the trigger.

hunting is not always a perfect world shit happens i know of a few guys that shot females for meat and ended with 1" horns paying for a male

its normally how mistakes is handled that determine how profesional a company realy is. The situation in the velt will always play a part i have also seen guys shooting the small animal next to the monster after getting good instructions which one to shoot.

I sometimes feel sorry for the poor PH, because of some of so called "hunters" they have to put up with.

I have heard some real horror stories, and had the misfortune to be in camp where some of these horror clients were.

It was very amusing to us, but to the PH it wasn't.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I sometimes feel sorry for the poor PH, because of some of so called "hunters" they have to put up with.

I have heard some real horror stories, and had the misfortune to be in camp where some of these horror clients were.

It was very amusing to us, but to the PH it wasn't.

99.99% of clients are an absolute pleasure to hunt with but that .1% can be an absolute nighmare. On those rare occasions all one can do is remain professional and deal with it to the best of your abilities............. All part of the business though.

Pierre van Tonder once said to Walter "Walter, you are a professional hunter's nightmare!"

Walter, of course, took that to heart, and proceeded to make Pierre's life a real nightmare!

FWIW, any safari contract worth it's salt will have a clause in it similar to the one on client responsibilities (see item 6) here: http://www.shakariconnection.c.../sample-contract.pdf

Any safari company that doesn't have such a similar clause in it, probably wouldn't stay in business for long.

That said, most safari companies may well choose not to apply the rule on some occasions.

In many, if not all, African countries a visiting hunter from another country isn't allowed to hunt without a licensed professional hunter. The visiting hunter is supposed to shoot animals only with the professional hunter's approval.

If the visiting hunter shoots at the direction/insistence of the professional hunter and there is a wide discrepancy between what was desired/expected and what was obtained I believe the professional hunter, being the professional, is clearly the one who should take responsibility for the animal shot in error with all economic ramifications thereunto accruing.

The "lesson" learned from my experience is do not EVER shoot unless you've made your own personal assessment of the critter in question. Do not trust a PH when he is insisting that you shoot. As a PH you should know that you are putting a huge amount of pressure on your client by insisting that he or she should shoot and shoot quickly. You should be pretty darn sure of yourself when you are letting those words out of your mouth.

The only thing that I would have liked to seen handled differently in my case was a simple apology. Gee I'm sorry I screwed up. Onward and upward. I'll talk to the game scout about putting this one on the rations quota or some such attempt would have smoothed it over very nicely.

This is another reason I like hunting buffalo in Tanzania with multiple buff on quota it takes the sting out of a screw up like mine last year.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
The visiting hunter is supposed to shoot animals only with the professional hunter's approval.

That's quite right...... but when the aforementioned .1% comes in, that's just one of the things that can go wrong.

I once shared a camp with a PH who's client just upped and whacked away at all kinds of things at any time....... and mostly hit 'em in the wrong place.

Eventually the PH was forced to have the tracker carry the rifle and only give it to the client when the sticks and the shot were set up.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
The "lesson" learned from my experience is do not EVER shoot unless you've made your own personal assessment of the critter in question. Do not trust a PH when he is insisting that you shoot. As a PH you should know that you are putting a huge amount of pressure on your client by insisting that he or she should shoot and shoot quickly. You should be pretty darn sure of yourself when you are letting those words out of your mouth.

Never has a truer word been spoken. Some PHs, esp inexperienced ones, often put far too much pressure on the client to shoot before he's ready to and before he is happy with the shot.

What happends if you shoot a 3 year old lion in Tanzanina or a 15 pound ele there, or a female leopard ? And the PH have said shoot ! Can you even take those animals outside the country ? Who pays the fines..

It depends on the degree of the sin committed, which of the four main game acts are applied and to some extent, the track record of the PH involved.

In some cases the sin is ignored, sometimes it's a case of a fine, usually of the trophy fee, plus the trophy fee, plus the trophy fee and the trophy is released. In other cases, the trophy can be lost to the game dept and in some cases, the PH can lose his licence either temporarily or permanently.

The answer is to get it right in the first place.

I shot a 45" Kudu after a great stalk, not what I wanted. The PH said we could do much better
and I could take another at 1/2 price.
I treasure the hunt and the animal. never did get my 50+, good reason to go back.

Long story short. Zim 2008. 6th trophy ele hunted same compani. 1. 45 pounds aside. 2 50pounds aside. 3. 49 pounds aside 4. 78 pounds one side 10 the other. (our personal decission)5. 55pounds aside. 6. >2o pounds aside.

the safari was taken with my wife wich loves Africa. Ele was the target but to make things more interesting I said would not take an elephant a gram smaller than 50 pounds. that would give me an extra bit charm and allow my wife and i to track lots of eles searching the one. As an extra we put a croc in the bag.
Excellent croc stalking instead of baiting them and waiting in a blind. 14.2 croc shoot.
Lets go for eles. Hundreds of them all around. this guys are boffins in ele hunting and each day we tracked eles. turned down 49 pounders, 47 pounders even a 51 on one side 45 on the other. told them before going i would be equally happy if we did not find the one but hunted hard every day. turned down a 60´ Kudu while tracking a big print.
Day 8. Wake up off we go. MY ph, which is a good friend after all this years. does not tell me he feels sick. I don´t notice it. Track , track find some eles. not what we want( between 45 to 49) one made me think but ph said would not make it to 50. As we go back to the car we hear a bigbunch of eles to our left. There were over two hundred. Strart working our way to find a big one. after 10 mins and over 60 eles they start to move parallel to us at 15 meters. it was quiet open on that place. get ready. if I see what you want i´ll tell you to shoot so don´t ask and shoot. The eles were like a river and the situation was perfect. they kept passing quiet slowly. after 2 mins he says that is the ano. can you see him clearly.- yes sir- Ok shoot him and don´t mess it up. boom. straight down. Spine shoot (actually a bad shoot because i was aiming his heart but I was lucky enough on that side.)Tremendous pandemonium with eles all over including a group of 6 wich came to see what we were but finally retreated. took us about 5 minutes to get to my ele because eles kept passing between us and him. It was a huge herd. I secure the ele with a brain shoot while he is laing down but he is dead. as we turn round to the front part after greeting I see something has gone wrong because the smile dissapears from my ph´s face. As soon as I see the tusks i know what has gone wrong. I don´t say a word but the atmosphere dulls. We do the recovery work and go back to camp quite upset. At night i recieve a letter from my ph Apolagising and telling me he wouint come to dinner because he fills sick. I go to see him to his house with all my medicines and after doing a quick check, give him some antipiretics and primperam. tell him not to worry and continue two days later with the safari. (my wife had to go out alone for two days ´cause i also grabed the stomachal disease that had hit my ph and I felt like shit) continued hunting for plainsgame to or three days and decided to go back home. In Bulawayo I staid in his house with his wife and kids which are also good friends from previous years and invited us to stay with them instead of a hotel. we are still good friends but I will not deni that i felt very sad and angry for 2-3 days. paid fully the safari allthought the ele was not a TROPHY ele.got back home and after thinking of it for 4 months made a call. I am going back on 2010 for Mr. spotts, ele, hippo and hiena with the same company. they have made me a 6000$ and my wife comes half price. It is not what I wanted but not a bad response.

I had a somewhat similar situation regarding a rhino. I was told to shoot this particular rhino. I was told there was no doubt it was the bull we were after. I whacked it. When I walked up to it, it was a cow! Granted it was a big cow but a cow nevertheless.

I was not happy. The PH apologized profusely. He was very upset and concerned as was the game manager that had also indicated this was the correct bull. We hunted several more days and had a great hunt and a great time.

When it came time to settle up, the PH asked me what I wanted to do about the rhino. He said he was willing to do whatever I wanted. I looked at the contract wording. It did not require a bull. It only provided for a rhino larger that X. The cow was larger than X. I paid.

I shot my first elephant and it was smaller than the PH had estimated. But it was still fun and nice looking ivory. Long enough just a little smaller in diameter than he thought and a very big nerve. I have since hunted with the same PH and oufitter 5 times and yes they have taken care of me very well and gave me a "deal" on a 2nd ele.

On my second elephant hunt we looked over many elephants and on day four of a 15 day hunt we saw an elephant that was "close" to what I wanted but the PH suggested we pass as we still had plenty of time. It was short but thick ivory. I said I wanted to take it as I liked the looks of the ivory and it was a large bodied bull and I wanted some garbage cans made out of the big feet. Well the opposite can happen also this one was a little bigger in diameter than estimated and had a small nerve so it was just what I wanted.

It is Africa and all fun.

BigB

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I had a very similar experience to the hypothetical presented above. We tracked two bulls into a thick patch of jess. The bulls kept moving around in the thicket and we would catch brief glimpses of each and then they would disappear. They started getting nervous and were about to bolt. We rounded a corner and saw the bull we thought to be the biggest facing us. I was told to shoot, I took the shot and the bull dropped to a perfect frontal brain shot. When we approached the PH -- not me -- acknowledged that it was the smaller of the two bulls. He seemed almost apologetic. Turns out that the bulls had swapped positions in the bush just as we rounded the corner. I never hestitated, I told the PH that it was my bull, I was proud of it, I was proud to have hunted it, the trackers had done an outstanding job and the bull was killed with a perfect frontal brain shot. It was not the PH's fault, it was not my fault, it was simply the way things played out in the uncertain game we call hunting. If the quality of my hunt and my enjoyment of the experience was going to depend on whether or not we shot the bigger of the two in thick bush, I would just as soon stay home. Would I rather have shot the bigger bull, would my PH have rather I shot the bigger bull, sure. Was my hunt any less memorable or enjoyable, absolutely not. One of the problems I have with society today is any time there is a problem we have to find someone to blame or hold responsible. Fact is sometimes, despite our efforts, things just go wrong or not as we would have planned. Wish I could hunt that bull again tomorrow.

This is a great post. The issue couldn't be summarized more concisely.

i've had more than one experience similar, what it all boils down to is "chit happens" both sides have to learn to roll with the punches