Just as an observation and not as a criticism, I find it interesting that this thread sometimes rather smacks of a supermarket hunting attitude.

I've noticed a lot of comment about trophies not being quite as anticipated but precious little comment about the quality of the hunt itself.

True hunting is true hunting and sometimes Diana smiles on you and you find the big boy........... but not always.

If you want guaranteed trophies, go buy a tin opener.

Going back to the original question, there is a huge difference between 15 and 50 pounds. I would be pissed. The PH is the hired expert and most clients, especially one on their first elephant hunt,follow along and do what their PH tells them. If the PH says he's sure that's the one and tells you to shoot, you shoot. The situation mentioned here is no small mistake.

As a client I'd be pissed and expect the outfitter to do something to make it right. As an outfitter, I've made the same mistake once or twice on exotics and automatically ate the trophy fee without a moment's hesitation and let the client shoot another. As a booking agent, I'd go to bat for my client on this one if the outfitter didn't do anything about it. PHs have to be held to a higher standard than estimating a 15 pound elephant as a 50 pounder. Hell, they should hold themselves to a higher standard than that.

quote:

Originally posted by Greg R:
Hell, they should hold themselves to a higher standard than that.

Greg,

Any PH deserving ofthat title does........ but let's face it, it's not unheard of for a client not to know his left from his right for example and only he can see what's in the scope.

I've never had a client shoot the wrong Elephant but I've had clients shoot the wrong Buffalo and even the wrong Hippo on occasion. If they can't tell left from right, it's hardly the PHs fault.

Every circumstance is different and consequently there are no realistic pat answers to this one.

i remember a sheep hunt years back where 1 had killed a beautiful 42 1/2" dall. the other guy in camp took one look and told his guide thats what he was after. the next day he wnet out and shot a 32 even after the guide told him not to, that it was to small and they could do better. then back at camp he chewed the guide out royally because he had he shoot a small one. chit does happen

Tough question, indeed.

But I agree with those who have said that the man who pulls the trigger bears the responsibility, regardless of the PH's error.

No one can be forced to shoot. And no one should shoot if he isn't confident enough about what he is shooting at.

Killing a substantially sub-par elephant - and paying the full trophy fee - would be a hard pill to swallow, but mistakes do happen - that's hunting and that's life.

I agree with MR completely. It is nice to see this subject discussed as all we usually hear is "trust your PH when it comes to trophy judgement, if he says shoot, then shoot".

I had a similar experience on my first cape buffalo hunt. It was a great hunt and classic stalk. We snuck wto within 40 yards of two bulls, both turned to face us. My PH said "shoot the one on the right". I did. One shot kill, dropped right there. I was ecstatic! When it came to photo time, my PH refused to be in the photo. He then confessed to this novice that he errored and I had shot an immature bull and he did not want his photo taken with a client and immature bull. At that time, I didn't know the difference. He went on to say that he had discussed this with the game scout and he would tag the buffalo with his resident license and I could continue my hunt. Very standup.

quote:

Let me set the scene. You are hunting trophy bull elephant, and have been on the hot trail of three elephant for several hours in very thick bush. A leg here, there's an ear, but never a whole ele to study, let alone compare all three bulls. The elephant are feeding and moving, and it is work to stay with them and get positioned for the shot. They could become alerted to your presence at any time, and could easily head for parts unknown. Occasional glimpses of the tusks indicates one is a very good bull. Let's say you are hunting in Zim, and it appears the big bull may go 50+ pounds. Not huge by Botswana standards, but pretty big for the area in Zim.
Suddenly you are within 20 yards of a bull presenting a classic side brain shot, but you can't see the tusks as the front of his head is obscured by the bush. The PH says "I saw the tusks, its him, Shoot him NOW!" You take the shot, drop the ele cleanly, and walk up to find a bull with 15-20 pound tusks. Clearly not the right elephant. You both do see the big ele as he crashes off with the third elephant after the shot.

What can you expect from the PH in this situation? He is clearly sorry, and knows he got it wrong. On the other hand, you pulled the trigger. It's your bull, right? The government game scout is right there, has seen everything. There isn't any hiding a dead elephant. What would you expect from your PH?

Some great responses, and it is a tuff situation. Llama has presented an "almost" worst-case scenario. Like Greg, addressing the original question and not similar situations (I am sorry but a $250 duiker cannot be compared to a $12,500 elephant trophy fee at any income level...well almost any!) and not employing the usage of the time-travel machine to go back and do things differently (Llama did not ask how to "avoid" this happening).

- Firstly, as Greg pointed out, a 50lb ele down to a 15-20lb ele is huge...a 30-35lb older ele and reasonable for the area, okay, but if there is a rat and/or young bull running with the big boy the potential for a mistake in thick bush needs to be considered by the PH ahead of time, and preferably a frank discussion held with client with the potential scenarios.

- Secondly, the "I saw the tusks, its him" quote is meaningful as otherwise I would hope that I would have considered the possibility that the ele's might get mixed-up and not shoot until I too saw the ivory. I can recall multiple situations where this has happened. Ditto with tuskless, where one needs to be selective also and not shoot the wrong cow. But, if a PH says "I saw the tusks, its him", which is stronger and more descriptive then "shoot now", I think I would be more inclined to take his word and shoot.

I said above that Llama presented an "almost" worst-case scenario, as in his scenario the elephant drops. Shooting any elephant with a perfect brain shot feels good. But what would have been the feelings had the elephant ran off and had to be shot by the PH and/or in a hail of follow-up gunfire. We'd all like to think this would not change our opinion, but it might.

I have shot the wrong plainsgame animal once, and even though it was 90% the PH's "fault", I still hold myself accountable so I guess I would feel the same if Llama's situation happened to me. I pulled the trigger, my elephant, and unless the PH offers up a differnt solution I pay. But given the two extenuating circumstances as pointed out above, I would look to the PH to be jointly culpable and do something, if even a token, to help salvage the overall hunt, or a next one.

So Llama, hypothetical or ?

On a related thought, the same PH who MikeJ refers to in his post talked me out of shooting a rat elephant once. We were in an area early season hunt in a new area for him, on a "60+ lb elephant or bust" hunt (granted, on somebody else's quota, but this was by design). Last few hours of light on the last day of the hunt, and we literally chased a bull down who turned and made a few aggressive mock charges to within 20-feet, head up, ears out, kicking up dust, the whole works. With adrenaline rushing, I shouldered the Lott with each forward lunge of the elephant and after the third bluff barked with gritted teeth "I'm going to shoot him!" at which point the PH said "Don't Bill, you will be disappointed after it is all over". He was right, I would have made a mistake and regretted it, and will always appreciate his integrity and situational awareness on this one.

Shakiri- The question asked at the start of this post was what happens when the PH messes up. You keep talking about mistakes made by the client.

If the client shoots the wrong elephant that is on the client. The original question is who takes the lumps if the PH says shoot that 50 lb bull and the client shoots it and then when he gets to the bull the PH says I messed up. That bull is less than half what I thought he was.

I have followed your posts for quite a while and it seems to me that while you have a lot of good information to convey to the forum, when it comes to client- agent relations you are always on the side of the operator and the client is always wrong. Clients are naive, clients are cheap, clients should do as they are told and if things go badly the client should accept all the responsibilty.

You seem to really want to play it both ways and set up your contract to gaurantee that it works out that way.

I actually think I prefer Saeed's line of thinking better.Two gentlemen agree on the details of a hunt and shake hands and then work together to see that everyone comes out a winner. Nobody has to lose in every business deal.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

I've noticed a lot of comment about trophies not being quite as anticipated but precious little comment about the quality of the hunt itself.

True hunting is true hunting and sometimes Diana smiles on you and you find the big boy........... but not always.

:

True that the hunt itself, and the memories it creates, is the more important aspect of the "trophy" the hunter brings back.

True also that Diana does not always smile on us, but when that big whatever fails to materialize, despite a good hard hunt, it should be the hunter's choice if he wishes to fill his tag in the end with something less than he was hoping and wishing for.

A PH's screw up has nothing to with Diana and whether she is smiling or frowning.

Screw ups happen, whether by the PH or the hunter or the trackers (ever had a tracker bump an elephant, buff or ?, it happens.) Whatever the result of the hunt, or the srew ups during the hunt, they are the hunter's. He is the sponsor, the ultimate authority, the boss. It is his crew, for the duration of his hunt, which he has assembled or had assembled on his behalf. As in all things responsibility goes to the top, directly or indirectly.

One of many good reasons to do your homework on your PH.

JPK

Eyedoc,

You need to re-read my posts. My point is that the question is too sweeping to give a pat answer to.

Or to put it another way, (and as I've already said), every circumstance is different and the answer to the question will depend on a number of factors.

Again, as I've already said, probably the most pertinent answers have already been given by Mike/Retreever and Saeed.

Yet again, as I've already said, the real answer is for the PH not to get it wrong in the first place.



JPK

True.

I would be much more willing to forgive a PH's error if:

1. The trophy fee for an elephant wasn't so astronomical to say nothing of the rest of the safari expenses.

2. If there wasn't this rule about if you draw blood you pay. It could be a nicked ear or whatever; if the client draws blood they pay.

I don't think this rule is unfair but it would also seem that if the PH screws up he he also should pay.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

I've noticed a lot of comment about trophies not being quite as anticipated but precious little comment about the quality of the hunt itself.

True hunting is true hunting and sometimes Diana smiles on you and you find the big boy........... but not always.

:

True that the hunt itself, and the memories it creates, is the more important aspect of the "trophy" the hunter brings back.

True also that Diana does not always smile on us, but when that big whatever fails to materialize, despite a good hard hunt, it should be the hunter's choice if he wishes to fill his tag in the end with something less than he was hoping and wishing for.

A PH's screw up has nothing to with Diana and whether she is smiling or frowning.

Screw ups happen, whether by the PH or the hunter or the trackers (ever had a tracker bump an elephant, buff or ?, it happens.) Whatever the result of the hunt, or the srew ups during the hunt, they are the hunter's. He is the sponsor, the ultimate authority, the boss. It is his crew, for the duration of his hunt, which he has assembled or had assembled on his behalf. As in all things responsibility goes to the top, directly or indirectly.

One of many good reasons to do your homework on your PH.

JPK

Very true indeed.

I have had some screw ups during my hunts - luckily nothing too serious, but we have always taken care of them in a manner that did not distract from the enjoyment of the safari.

One year we were on our last buffalo of the hunt. And we followed I two or 3 bulls - too thick to see for sure.

We caught up with them, and saw then a few yards ahead of us. I managed to fire at one.
They all ran off with us following. A few yards further, we saw them again.

Here is where the mistakes happened.

We were 3, myself, the PH and the video cameraman.

All I could see was the one standing. My Ph could only see one lying down - that is the I shot earlier. I asked the PH if he was sure it was the one we shot earlier, and of course he said yes, as the bull was down, so it could not be possibly anything else. He never realized that I could not see that one, but the one standing, not visible to him.

I fired a shot at the one standing, and he took off. Suddenly the one lying down got up, and took a step towards us. I then saw him, and put a bullet into his head.

The PH asked what happened to my shot - when the bull was down. I told him that wasn't the one I shot, but the one standing up.

So we had our first bull down, but the second had to be found.

We ran after him, and found him dead a few yards further.

My PH went to the game department, and sorted out the mistake. I just had the pleasure of shooting one extra buffalo

And everyone was happy.

Some very interesting and well reasoned replies. And as has been shown many times in the replies, these are not always hypothetical situations.

How does it change your viewpoint to add the additional qualifier:

The previous day you had been tracking ele, and managed to get in close (under 25 yards) to a bull presenting a clear brain shot. The PH says shoot, but the hunter declines the shot as he doesn't think the ivory is big enough. The ele runs off and is never seen again. The PH is upset, says "That was a good bull, at least 40 pounds, you should have shot". The client says, "It just didn't look that big to me, I want to be sure". The PH replies, " It is my job to judge the ivory, and your job to shoot when I tell you. You have to trust me."

The originally described scenario happens the very next time they bump into ele.

Does this change your view?

I do generally subscribe to the view that the hunter pulls the trigger and bears the ultimate responsibility. On a $250 steenbok maybe the tip is adjusted to reflect the screw-up. With a $12,500 trophy fee on elephant, discussion about the tip don't seem really relevant! It would be nice if money didn't enter into the disucssion, but if that was the case we wouldn't hear comments like "the PH can't afford to swallow this kind of mistake." In real life, for almost all of us, this kind of cost is significant.

I appreciate the good responses.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Greg R:
Hell, they should hold themselves to a higher standard than that.

Greg,

Any PH deserving ofthat title does........ but let's face it, it's not unheard of for a client not to know his left from his right for example and only he can see what's in the scope.

I've never had a client shoot the wrong Elephant but I've had clients shoot the wrong Buffalo and even the wrong Hippo on occasion. If they can't tell left from right, it's hardly the PHs fault.

Every circumstance is different and consequently there are no realistic pat answers to this one.

Steve,

I am answering the question posed. He didn't ask what would happen if the client shot the one on the right instead of the one on the left, or anything along those lines. His question was pretty specific. I answered based on the information given.

Greg,

I was only referring to the part of your statement that I quoted............. it wasn't a criticism of your entire comment, just an observation on that part of it.

One month ago I shot an elephant in botswana and when we measured the tusk it was below the weight the p.h. had said it would be and he was feeling real bad wanted to know what I wanted to do . I said let have a sundowner toast the Elephant,the great hunt and the Excellent p.h. and I will take the extra 10000 $ I had put back for weight and go dart a rhino in south africa to finish off my big 5. At the end of the day its about the hunt and the guy who pulls the trigger should enjoy it or he shouldnt do it.

Of course the client pays. After all, he is the only one that brings a checkbook to a hunting camp.

I think we need to realize going in that both you and the PH are human and as such that it is possible that we will make mistakes. In most cases adjustments can be made to lessen the impact on the client. But if it totally is your fault then you will have to eat your mistake. A good and reputable Safari Company will make it right if it is the PH's fault. I also believe that I am responsible every time I pull the trigger so I have refused to shoot on several occasions. In most cases, my decision turned out to be the correct one for me and I am comfortable with them. In a couple, I actually saved the PH from making a costly mistake that would have caused big problems with National Parks. When the PH has been right and I refused to shoot, I have lost a good trophy but I really don't feel at all bad about that. I also tell the PH going in that I will make the final decision on whether I will shoot or not and if I decide not to shoot and lose a good trophy in the process, not to feel bad about it because I certainly won't.

465H&H

Steve- I agree that the best option is for the PH to NOT make the mistake. But the original premiss is that the mistake has been made and the PH is clearly at fault.

You pointed out that your contract states clearly that if the client shoots it then he is to pay for it. So with this specific scenario, how do you resolve the issue?

Eyedoc,

Actually, I pointed out what a typical safari contract would/should say, not what our own one says....... however, ours is similar.

Frankly, that scenario hasn't ever happened with our company and nor is it likely to, because neither I nor any of the guys who work for us would be anywhere near daft enough to put themselves in that situation. The only time I or the guys would tell a client to shoot would be if we were 110% absolutely sure of the animal......... esp with Elephants. As many here will know, I'm exremely fussy about what's a right or wrong Elephant to shoot.

If you're asking me to predict what another company would do, all I can say is that I refer you to my previous posts and the question is far too sweeping for me to give any sensible answer to.......... I might add that as I don't have a crystal ball I can't predict tomorrows weather, let alone what another company might do under any particular circumstance.

Sorry my answer can't be more contraversial but that's the way it is.

My question was not vague in any way and by the way that you have avoided answering it I have learned all that I need to know. If you and your PH's have never made a mistake you need to be very careful!

The only one that I know who was perfect was Jesus Christ and they crucified him.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
My question was not vague in any way and by the way that you have avoided answering it I have learned all that I need to know. If you and your PH's have never made a mistake you need to be very careful!

The only one that I know who was perfect was Jesus Christ and they crucified him.

Wow, you must be a lot older than I thought if you knew JC!!!

The question is vague because the answer depends on a lot of different factors, not least amongst them, what country the hunt is taking place in. Every African country has it's own set of game laws, some have more than one and some of those acts contradict each other, therefore, even if that were the only variable, and it's not, it's impossible to give an accurate answer. You're also asking me to answer for an entire industry that operates in umpteen different countries, which is again impossible.

Have I ever been wrong? Sure I have, but never with an Elephant. Let's face it, if you can't see well enough to get an accurate assessment of trophy quality on an Elephant from shooting range, there's gotta be something very seriously wrong............. and if something's wrong, let alone very seriously wrong in that situation, no-one should even be close to considering taking a shot.

Actually Steve people of all ages can get to know Jesus.

By the way , how many elephants have you taken 1)Personally?
2)Professionally?

I have only taken one myself and I am sure you have taken many more than I have but I am just curious how long that your perfect sreak has run?

I've been in the African hunting industry (one way or another) for almost 30 years....... to be precise, 29 years and 2 months....... and in that time, I've hunted 6 African countries.

I keep the exact number of animals I've taken or been party to taking, private as I consider it )A) unsporting to keep count and (B) to be the business of myself and my maker....... but it's a considerable number and if you doubt the veracity of my experience, you'll find a fair amount of evidence of it on my websites and in my writings for a variety of magazines etc. I should say though, that I prefer to hunt other animals rather than Elephant and I have no doubt that at least one man here has probably hunted more Elephants in a year than I've hunted in my lifetime.......... and I'm more than happy with that situation.

That isn't meant to sound like I'm blowing my own trumpet.. I'm not, it's that (as I keep saying), it's impossible to give a sensible answer to the question.

BTW, I appreciate your point about Jesus, but I've never met him personally and would have serious doubts about anyone who might claim to have done so.

Just for fun, here's a pic of me 29 years and 2 months ago......... I'm the skinny bugger on the right and sorry for the embarrassing hatband!

The old guy standing, with the buggered arms is the greatest man I ever knew.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Just for fun, here's a pic of me 29 years and 2 months ago......... I'm the skinny bugger on the right and sorry for the embarrassing hatband!

The old guy standing, with the buggered arms is the greatest man I ever knew.

The "old guys" arms look fine to me, it's the animal that looks buggered.

It was the start of the poor old bugger's cancer, but we didn't know it then....... as you say though, the waterbuck was in worse nick.

Here's another embarrassing pic.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
It was the start of the poor old bugger's cancer, but we didn't know it then....... as you say though, the waterbuck was in worse nick.

Here's another embarrassing pic.

At least that "buggered animal" has a sparkle in its eye.

Yeah, it's funny that!

The cat was set up by Van Ingen and Van Ingen and the eyes seemed to follow you round the room, but they don't look right in the pic huh?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Yeah, it's funny that!

The cat was set up by Van Ingen and Van Ingen and the eyes seemed to follow you round the room, but they don't look right in the pic huh?

I would say they have a somewhat, "what the fuck was that" look about them.

Very well put.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Very well put.

I believe that the above mentioned "look" originated from the Mayor of Hiroshima.

quote:

Originally posted by Cdr_McBragg:
[QUOTE]I believe that the above mentioned "look" originated from the Mayor of Hiroshima.

Steve-No one asked you how long you have been hunting. You said you have NEVER had a bugger- up on an elephant hunt. So I ask again, how many elephant are in this long and perfect streak you were referring to. I have a pretty good idea as AR members have contacted me with their estimations by PM. I just want to see if after 5 questions now will I at last get one definitive answer.

quote:

Originally posted by Greg R:
Going back to the original question, there is a huge difference between 15 and 50 pounds. I would be pissed. The PH is the hired expert and most clients, especially one on their first elephant hunt,follow along and do what their PH tells them. If the PH says he's sure that's the one and tells you to shoot, you shoot. The situation mentioned here is no small mistake.

As a client I'd be pissed and expect the outfitter to do something to make it right. As an outfitter, I've made the same mistake once or twice on exotics and automatically ate the trophy fee without a moment's hesitation and let the client shoot another. As a booking agent, I'd go to bat for my client on this one if the outfitter didn't do anything about it. PHs have to be held to a higher standard than estimating a 15 pound elephant as a 50 pounder. Hell, they should hold themselves to a higher standard than that.

Greg, I would question any CLIENT who can't tell the difference between a 15 and 50 pound elephant bull. You're talking about a huge difference in tusk size, not to mention several thousand pounds for the animal itself. If someone is going to go elephant hunting, they owe it to themselves, and their PH, to have at least a basic understanding of what they're going to be doing. If someone can't tell the difference between those two examples, I suggest that they should probably stick to plains game until they understand the difference.

Steve, I can honestly say I recognize you in your younger days...


Mike

quote:

Originally posted by CAelknuts:

quote:

Originally posted by Greg R:
Going back to the original question, there is a huge difference between 15 and 50 pounds. I would be pissed. The PH is the hired expert and most clients, especially one on their first elephant hunt,follow along and do what their PH tells them. If the PH says he's sure that's the one and tells you to shoot, you shoot. The situation mentioned here is no small mistake.

As a client I'd be pissed and expect the outfitter to do something to make it right. As an outfitter, I've made the same mistake once or twice on exotics and automatically ate the trophy fee without a moment's hesitation and let the client shoot another. As a booking agent, I'd go to bat for my client on this one if the outfitter didn't do anything about it. PHs have to be held to a higher standard than estimating a 15 pound elephant as a 50 pounder. Hell, they should hold themselves to a higher standard than that.

Greg, I would question any CLIENT who can't tell the difference between a 15 and 50 pound elephant bull. You're talking about a huge difference in tusk size, not to mention several thousand pounds for the animal itself. If someone is going to go elephant hunting, they owe it to themselves, and their PH, to have at least a basic understanding of what they're going to be doing. If someone can't tell the difference between those two examples, I suggest that they should probably stick to plains game until they understand the difference.

I see where you're coming from, but please note that I was addressing the poster's original scenario: Suddenly you are within 20 yards of a bull presenting a classic side brain shot, but you can't see the tusks as the front of his head is obscured by the bush. The PH says "I saw the tusks, its him, Shoot him NOW!" You take the shot, drop the ele cleanly, and walk up to find a bull with 15-20 pound tusks.

Notice that in his scenario, the client could not see the tusks but the PH said he could and told him to shoot.

Greg- The scenario is layed out very clearly and specifically yet Steve will not tell us how he would handle the situation.Instead he gives vague excusess as such as there are too many different situations , too broad of circumstances. The only real clue is his example contract which states that the client is responsible for all game shot and wounded or killed.

This leads me to believe that his philosophy is that no matter how badly he or one of his PH"s might screw the pooch it will still be up to the client to pay the freight.....And that he and his PH's never make a mistake, especially on elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Greg- The scenario is layed out very clearly and specifically yet Steve will not tell us how he would handle the situation.Instead he gives vague excusess as such as there are too many different situations , too broad of circumstances. The only real clue is his example contract which states that the client is responsible for all game shot and wounded or killed.

This leads me to believe that his philosophy is that no matter how badly he or one of his PH"s might screw the pooch it will still be up to the client to pay the freight.....And that he and his PH's never make a mistake, especially on elephant.

No you will never make a mistake if you always let the client make the decision and bare the responsibility.

465H&H

As I wrote in my African Hunter article "Seven Ways to Ruin a Perfectly Good Safari", shooting when the PH says "Don't Shoot" is one of the obvious ways to do it. Another way, paradoxically, is to shoot unthinkingly when the PH says "Shoot". My mental model is two green lights are the necessary precondition ... PH green and shooter green. In fact, I dislike PH's who use the word "shoot". It makes clients nervous. Better to say "green light" or "OK when you are ready" or something similar.

Having said that, I think this story is a little implausible...it implies that the PH can see the tusks from his vantage point, which tusks don't exist. The PH would have to be hallucinating. That raises a different issue....a PH on drugs??!