I think, for me, just for me, it would come down to knowing the PH. If I felt comfortable that he had done his best and "Chit Happened" I would be okay. Not happy, but okay with it. I would discuss a "deal" for my return trip. It's not like selling range steers, you don't always get to pick the one you want out in the wild and take him cleanly.

This is why you check references, and get to "know" the PH you will be hunting with.
I am going to SA in mid-April for plains game. A very good friend recommended the PH, and I will place my trust in him.

Rich

Let us look at another scenario. You are on a tuskless hunt in Zimbabwe and you track a small herd of elephant cows from a water hole. By the tracks he and the trackers determine that there are at least two adult cows, one medium size cow and one very small calf. You come on the group and contact the group in a medium amount of brush and trees. On the far left you can see a tuskless adult cow standing broadside. In the heavier brush to your right you can see at least three more elephants , one of which is an adult tuskless with a very small calf by it's side. The PH tells you to shoot the big tuskless on the left by herself. You notice that her tits are somewhat swollen and ask him if she is nursing. He says no that if she had a calf it would be by her side. You take the cow with a clean side brain shot and as you walk up you see a very small (less than two week old calf by her side nudging her trying to get her to get up. You have shot a cow with a dependant calf! Whose fault is it and who should pay the penalty?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Let us look at another scenario. You are on a tuskless hunt in Zimbabwe and you track a small herd of elephant cows from a water hole. By the tracks he and the trackers determine that there are at least two adult cows, one medium size cow and one very small calf. You come on the group and contact the group in a medium amount of brush and trees. On the far left you can see a tuskless adult cow standing broadside. In the heavier brush to your right you can see at least three more elephants , one of which is an adult tuskless with a very small calf by it's side. The PH tells you to shoot the big tuskless on the left by herself. You notice that her tits are somewhat swollen and ask him if she is nursing. He says no that if she had a calf it would be by her side. You take the cow with a clean side brain shot and as you walk up you see a very small (less than two week old calf by her side nudging her trying to get her to get up. You have shot a cow with a dependant calf! Whose fault is it and who should pay the penalty?

465H&H

IMO, the shooter is ultimately responsible for the shot. IF he had ANY doubts in his mind that the cow was nursing, don't shoot, no matter what the PH says.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I have had 3 excellent Safaris in Zimbabwe, with 2 different PH's.
They involved plains game and dangerous game, to include multiple cape buff and elephant on each hunt.

Every hunter has his own expectations.



It is best to get everything along these lines sorted out before the hunt.

I have told my PH's the following:

I do not have to shoot the biggest/world record on the Planet. I just want to shoot a good representive for the area we are hunting.

I do not want to shoot a DINK. All I need to know is when and which one to shoot. While I always wear binos, I do not use them when shooting is imminent. It is the PH's job to judge the trophy, it is my job to make a good shot.

Sometimes shooting quick makes the difference between getting the animal or not.

I tell the PH to tell me when to shoot, IF I can make the shot I will shoot, if not, then we can stalk again.

I also state, if you see what you think is a monster, we are in heavy bush, and I shoot, and one horn is huge, the other broken, then I will not worry as we are hunting up close and I just made a great shot.

I am not an inch counter, I care more about the hunt, and the shot.

I have spent quite some time up close and personal with elephants with the PH making sure we shot the right one. That is one of the fun things about elephant hunting in the thick.

Bottom line is, talk to the PH, let him know what you expect, let him tell you what you can expect, and have a plan.

Very nicely stated! I wish all clients had the same attitude!
Yes, before the hunt, PH & Client should carefully discuss the client's trophy species & quality expectations. After the animal is down is not the time to do it.
You are correct. A pet peeve of many PHs is the client taking way, way too long to shoot, even on an easy, close shot. When a big animal is spotted, and OK is given by PH; the hunter should TRY to shoot a.s.a.p. (Extreame slowest is usually a sign of a client not familiar with his rifle).
I tell my clients that I am cautious (I hate "ground Shrink" so please allow me to look over the animal carefully, and if big, I may then give you the "Green Light", but then its up to you to evaluate the shot (distance, angle etc), as you are the person paying for the trophy. The client knows his or her's shooting skills or limitations way more than does the PH. I tell them: if you dont feel comfortable you can make a good shot....then dont shoot. I will never urge or beg you to shoot.
Because I hate mistakes/ground shrinkage I probably tend to take a bit more time glassing over some animals then do most PHs. But just as most clients hate when PH says: "Shoot!" I dislike (when I'm looking over an animal at a distance, or in thick bush) and a client keeps saying: "Is he big?? Is he big?? Shall I shoot?? What does he score?" Over the years I've had a couple clients do this and it can be a bit irritating and pressuring. Please be patient, as we are trying to avoid costly mistakes.
Regards your other good point: I had a client recently who (ever time a trophy animal was spotted and I looked it over & told him to take it) took his binoculars, and studied the animal for a real long time. Each time I said "please trust me, the animal is big". Each time he looked with binoculars, and by the time he finally decided to shoot, the animal was gone. After a few days of this, I told him he can't shoot anything with his binoculars, "you have a scope....please just look through that before shooting". He finally took my advice and managed to obtain quite a few big trophies on his safari.
Let us not forget that both client & PH are in the bush because BOTH enjoy the hunt. And with hunting anywhere mistakes can and do happen sometimes (on both sides). Its all part of hunting. Let's enjoy the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Let us look at another scenario. You are on a tuskless hunt in Zimbabwe and you track a small herd of elephant cows from a water hole. By the tracks he and the trackers determine that there are at least two adult cows, one medium size cow and one very small calf. You come on the group and contact the group in a medium amount of brush and trees. On the far left you can see a tuskless adult cow standing broadside. In the heavier brush to your right you can see at least three more elephants , one of which is an adult tuskless with a very small calf by it's side. The PH tells you to shoot the big tuskless on the left by herself. You notice that her tits are somewhat swollen and ask him if she is nursing. He says no that if she had a calf it would be by her side. You take the cow with a clean side brain shot and as you walk up you see a very small (less than two week old calf by her side nudging her trying to get her to get up. You have shot a cow with a dependant calf! Whose fault is it and who should pay the penalty?

465H&H

IMO, the shooter is ultimately responsible for the shot. IF he had ANY doubts in his mind that the cow was nursing, don't shoot, no matter what the PH says.

True statement but this might be the clients first sight of an elephant in the bush. Seldom has a client enough experience to make that decision. Isn't that what we pay the PH to do? I'd like to hear from some of the PHs on here with tuskless hunting experience to give us their take on this question (Ganyana, Ivan, Martin, or Buzz). Also who would National Parks hold resposible?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
The best I could do for Mike was keep an eye out for a good deal in the future and then give him 100% when we hunt again. That will be this season where we will shoot a couple of tuskless a buff and I hope the "right ele bull"!

. . . and that is exactly what happened. As Paul Harvey would say, "and that is . . . the rest of the story."

quote:

Originallty posted by llamapacker:
PH error on ele hunt - who pays?

With cash or traveler's checks?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
The best I could do for Mike was keep an eye out for a good deal in the future and then give him 100% when we hunt again. That will be this season where we will shoot a couple of tuskless a buff and I hope the "right ele bull"!

. . . and that is exactly what happened. As Paul Harvey would say, "and that is . . . the rest of the story."

Mike,

Well done my friend. People like yourself are the ones who are a credit to our sport.

There is nothing 100% guaranteed in hunting, and one should take his chances, and if teh dice rolls the wrong way, one has to accept it.

I have had a few screw ups in my hunts, and with all the different PHs I have had the pleasure of hunting with, everything is sorted out right there in the bush, regardless of who was to blame for the mistake, and that was that.

If anything, this tends to re-inforces ones respect for those he is hunting with.

I can't say that I have had a "severe error" with ID'ing an animal, and shooting the "wrong one" in Africa. I have shot a couple that ended up being what in retrospect were not good trophies or what I was after. I will say that of the "dinky" animals, most if not all, of them the PH knew what we were shooting at was not real good.

As stated above, communication was the issue. In one case the dinky immature buffalo was a bait animal, and while I was personally a little upset about it being small and immature, I also knew it was necessary to shoot a bait now, rather than messing around for a few days to get it. I just wish that I had been told that it was small but beggars can't be choosers before I pulled the trigger, instead of after. I was rather unhappy that the PH did not want his picture taken with it, as it was beneath his standards, yet I was supposed to be pleased.

I also had this happen on a mule deer hunt where the weather was bad (too warm) and it was very late in the day. I could not see the antlers in my scope, but the guide could see in his spotting scope. I was told that's the big deer, shoot him, on the left. Made sure I was on what he said was the right deer and put him down. I was very upset when I walked up on a 3X2. (we had agreed I was after a 4X4, and I was fine with going home without...) It was a huge 3X2, but still. No statement about it before hand, no admission of making a mistake, no offer of compensation. All I got out of that outfitter was how it was a great deer and how he would be happy to shoot it himself (this being after the guide had told me about a big 3X2 they needed to cull before that day's hunt).

I will say never in my hunting career have I considered not paying my bill as a means of making my displeasure known. As has been stated, I was the one pulling the trigger, and I could always waited until I knew what I was looking at was what I wanted, even if I know I would not be able to tell its trophy characteristics without a tape.

My big issue is with a PH who knows he pooched it, and is willing to make amends somehow, but only will offer it if the client says anything about wanting a deal because of the mistake.

If you muck it up, own up to it, and offer a remedy (if you can), and make it the best offer you will make up front. Negotiating on a offer of contrition is in poor taste IMHO, and if the client starts in with bargaining, its a sign of poor upbringing to me also.

If the elephant was bigger than you expected would you have any problem with the PH doubling the trophy fee when he saw the tusks?

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
If the elephant was bigger than you expected would you have any problem with the PH doubling the trophy fee when he saw the tusks?

Simplest, most logical post yet, to me.

Being dissapointed is one thing but if he wanted a sure thing he should have given that guy in Zim 100k for his 50" buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
If the elephant was bigger than you expected would you have any problem with the PH doubling the trophy fee when he saw the tusks?

Always the flipside eh?

Ivory is difficult to judge. The Zim PH's I know are generally pretty good, but a few pounds allowance either side should always be made. That's not to say 30 pounds less than what the PH says, but length, girth, body size all vary according to area. And angle varies in each and every situation....

David

Don't they increase it if you go over a weight limit in most places? I know most Zim outfits don't, but I think its a part of the rules in Bots and Tanz. What happens to the client who can afford x and the PH says its ok, then it turns out to be y and he can't afford it?

Some outfits say that their PH's will not make that mistake, or its no increased cost. They do seem to be more inclined to make this guarantee than vice versa.

465..in your case parks would hold the PH accountable, but like with female leopard...A PH doesn't earn enough to pay for those sort of mistakes (officially 6k for the ele or 5k for a female leopard)...

So, you either do the corrupt thing and make the problem go away (apparently it costs about $500 for a female leopard to miraculosly grow balls) or you squeeze the client...

Neighter are nice or honest...(which is why I haven't done a leopard hunt since 1999 BTW!)