Everyone makes mistakes, and it is how we handle these mistakes that make or break us. In llama's example, I think the PH might have been under pressure to shoot an elephant, be it financially or time constraints. It is clearly his mistake, and even though the client accepts the full responibility fro anything shot, I do think that the least they can do is offer him another elephant the next year at trophy fee only, or give an substansial discount.

Another example, I once hunted buffalo with a client, and we where following 2 buff, a bull and an old cow. I saw the bull a couple of times, but we never had a shot. Eventually, we had them sationary, the one on the right obscured totally by the bush, the one on the left only part of the shoulder clearly visible. My tracker at that stage, had huge amounts of experience himself, and has shown many times that he knows what he tlaks about re. trophy size, etc.
He said to me the one on the left is the bull, and without making sure myself, I told the client to shoot it. It turned out to be the cow. Luckily we had cows on licence, but obviuosly the guy wanted a bull. I told him that it was my mistake, and that he only needs to pay for the cow if he wants to keep the trophy, which he did. I can tell you that it only takes one such mistake before you only trust your own eyes though...

I have followed the AR for quite some time but refrained from posting for various reasons but LPs post is close to my heart so thought that I would add my two cents worth.

Not so long ago when I heard of a PH mention that he had "mistakenly shot the wrong ele" I immediately thought that he was creating a smoke screen to try and cover up for badly misjudging ivory. Then came the day I had my comeuppance. Luckily for me I was hunting with a true Gentleman and hunter been Mike Jines who has posted the situation earlier on this thread.

I was absolutely positive when I told Mike to shoot, that it was the bigger of the two bulls (50lbs)that we had been following. To this day I still wonder how I was mistaken. He was looking at us over a jess bush with his head held high so judging ivory was difficult but his position was where the bigger bull was which we had lost sight of for a second or two as we got into position. After a perfect brain shot there he was ,the smaller of the two (30lbs)! I was devastated. Straight off I told Mike that it was my mistake. Mike shook my hand and said that that was his bull and he was proud of it!

As mentioned I was very grateful to have had Mike under those circumstances. I hold myself responsible for the mistake. However as Ganyana points out ,as a Ph, who has bought an ele in another concession on behalf of his client, I did not have any lee way to " make things right" as much as I would have liked to.

As a Zim PH I would certainly not be able to cover the costs of the trophy fee let alone the whole cost package. Now that things are "dollarised" in Zim and an elephant is costing the operator us$10K plus and not the equivilant of a few hundred when exchange rates had been applied, there will be very few compromises when an unfortunate incident like this happens as it certainly will as mistakes happen!

The best I could do for Mike was keep an eye out for a good deal in the future and then give him 100% when we hunt again. That will be this season where we will shoot a couple of tuskless a buff and I hope the "right ele bull"! To Ilamapacker who we had the pleasure of guiding a pac ele a couple of years earlier- I am sorry to hear out come, as I know it was your hunt of a life time unfortunately curved balls are thrown to the best.

Lastly as this is my first post- I would like to say thanks to Saeed for hosting a very informative site and too all our clients and friends that have supported us that are involved on the AR.

I have had 3 excellent Safaris in Zimbabwe, with 2 different PH's.
They involved plains game and dangerous game, to include multiple cape buff and elephant on each hunt.

Every hunter has his own expectations.

It is best to get everything along these lines sorted out before the hunt.

I have told my PH's the following:

I do not have to shoot the biggest/world record on the Planet. I just want to shoot a good representive for the area we are hunting.

I do not want to shoot a DINK. All I need to know is when and which one to shoot. While I always wear binos, I do not use them when shooting is imminent. It is the PH's job to judge the trophy, it is my job to make a good shot.

Sometimes shooting quick makes the difference between getting the animal or not.

I tell the PH to tell me when to shoot, IF I can make the shot I will shoot, if not, then we can stalk again.

I also state, if you see what you think is a monster, we are in heavy bush, and I shoot, and one horn is huge, the other broken, then I will not worry as we are hunting up close and I just made a great shot.

I am not an inch counter, I care more about the hunt, and the shot.

I have spent quite some time up close and personal with elephants with the PH making sure we shot the right one. That is one of the fun things about elephant hunting in the thick.

Bottom line is, talk to the PH, let him know what you expect, let him tell you what you can expect, and have a plan.

Now there is a different approach.

Lets say you are a Book Trophy hunter, and only want to shoot an animal of "X" measurements. And if you do not see "that" animal you have no problem comming home without firing a shot....

THEN you should make that perfectly clear to the PH before the hunt.

Buzz

Welcome to AR.

All of "you" Zim Ph's are to be commended for sticking it out in Zim.

I think Zim is the best place in Africa to hunt.

It is "y'all" that have kept it so, in spite of the monumential governmental problems.


I spent several days in Zim, with Dale Des Fountain my Ph from Brooklands Safaris, and Ian Lewis my videographer, before my second Safari.

I wanted to see what daily living in Zimbabwe was like....

I had no idea.... My hat is off to all of you.

Most people have NO idea what is involved with daily life, much less what it takes to prep for a Safari.

Zimbabwe is a beautiful country, it is a shame the Govt. has ruined the economy.

Mike,

I'm astounded that anyone could recognise me from all those years ago....... I guess I should be grateful I've still got my hair huh?

Eyedoc,

I'll start with numbers. As I've said here, elsewhere on the forum and always when I'm personally asked about numbers of animals I've taken. I don't ever tell anyone the number of animals I've taken because I consider it unsporting, bad taste, distasteful and disrespectful of the animals to just count them as a tally or notches in a gunstock etc.... Incidentally, this has been my attitude for many (at least 20) years and it ain't ever gonna change.

I will say this though, looking back, I'd say that the number I've taken are not many when compared to some here but I think I've maybe taken too many for my own peace of mind and I wouldn't be too disappointed if I never take another Elephant. (maybe that's just old age creeping on!) ...... hell, I'm even personally uncomfortable with the sport hunting of female Elephants and once got myself some flack with the comment of 'any fool can shoot an Elephant and many fools do'. That comment wasn't meant to be offensive, it was meant to point out that I personally feel a lot of hunters simply don't understand anywhere near enough about Elephant herd dynamics and relationships etc before they pull the trigger. However, I try not to criticise others for doing it, I just don't want to do it or offer it to clients myself. What others do is their business and none of mine.

Regarding your exact scenario. As Russ says, it's unlikely, which is why I'm reluctant to give you a pat answer, because I don't think there are any easy, pat answers....... but I'll try the best I can here.

Firstly, 456H&H makes a good point about the client making the decision and it's always a good idea to say something like, 'take him if you're happy or take him if you want him', but be that as it may, I and the PHs I know would make a very strong point of taking a very long hard look at any Elephant before the shot, and only if I were absolutely sure, would I tell the client to take the shot.

I'll give you an example of how cautious I am about choosing the right Elephant. Some years ago (in the days when it was still a very good block) I was hunting MK1/Gonabisi in Tanzania with a 21 day client. We'd taken both cats (if I remember correctly), 3 Buff, hippo, flatdog and most of the other species but were still looking for Mr Big Ears. The client told me he didn't have to have the biggest tusker in the world but it had to be legal and well balanced. (tuskwise. not mentally).

Eventually, we spotted 3 bulls feeding in the palms close to the river. 2, we dismissed immediatly as not being shooters and the other looked like a great trophy (probably about 60lbs). I could see one great tusk closest to me, and on the other side, I could see a white tusk shaped object moving as the animal fed. Im glad to say, I waited, and waited and waited and eventually (more than an hour later) the Elephant moved a few feet, but the 'tusk' didn't.

Turned out the tusk on that side was broken off and what I could see was the stem of a half dead palm leaf that was shaped and coloured just like a tusk, and must have been hooked up with the broken tusk on that side and moved up and down and the Elephant's head moved........

My point is, I waited until I was 110% sure I knew what we were looking at beforehand and therefore didn't make a mistake. Sure the Elephant could have run in the extra time it took me to make sure, but I'd much rather lose the chance of a shot than shoot the wrong animal. I guess that might mean I'm not a great fan of Elephant hunting or at least, prefer to hunt other animals.......

Regarding legalities, in some countries such as Tanzania, you can't just go off and let the client shoot another Elephant. What's down is down and that's an end to the matter. Sure, you might possibly be able to substitute an impala for another by writing one up as a meat quota animal, but you sure as heck can't do it with something like an Elephant...... therefore, you have to live with the trophy as it is. Some other countries need the individual licence for the individual animal to be issued before the hunt commences, so again, you can't simply let the guy shoot another.

If legalities or indeed quota etc were not an issue and if the error was completely the PHs then one might expect the safari company (not necessarily the PH) to make some kind of amends, either financially or offer some kind of discount on a future hunt, but as I've previously said, that's a highly unlikely scenario because no PH I know would ever hurry things and put himself in the position of telling the client to shoot before he was absolutely and positively sure of the animal that was about to be shot.

Can mistakes happen? sure they can, but all I can say is that particular mistake is highly unlikely to happen and has never happened to me and if it did, my reaction would have to be affected by what I was allowed to do by law and other factors.......... If it happened to someone else, they'd have to make their own decision about what to do, but they'd sure as hell have my sympathy!!!!

I'm sorry I can't give you more of an answer than that but hope at least that I've explained why it's not possible to give a clear cut pat answer to such a vague scenario.

Please also note that I can only comment from a personal perspective and I don't and can't talk for an entire industry that operates in umpteen countries and with umpteen sets od game laws etc.

Buzz,

Welcome to the forum! Glad to have you here.

Hi Buzz
welcome, we need more guys here with ACTUAL elephant experience...!

The real thread that runs throughout this discussion is that at the end of the day you have to have trust and confidence in your PH. You have to trust them with your money, your safety, to ensure a enjoyable hunt, their trophy judgment, to get your trophies home, to help address any issues that might arise, etc. The importance of knowing the character and integrity of who you are hunting with cannot be overstated.

Buzz is a man of character and integrity. I go back to what I said earlier. Just because something does not work out the way we wanted or intended, or because the unexpected occurs, does not mean that anyone made a "mistake". I look forward to hunting with Buzz in October and I know he will work hard -- not because of anything that happened before -- but because he loves hunting and works hard for all of his clients and has fun doing it.

Being old, deaf and half-blind, and still going on safaris, I find that P.H.'s have a secret language that only binoculars can understand. When they are glassing/judging game, I try to figure out what they are saying, and consequently, have passed up lots of shots... But in the grand scheme of things, I have other more pressing problems to worry about.

I think, particularly while hunting dangerous game, all the P.H., staff and hunter can do is their collective best. There are lots of pressures on everyone and the whole thing is a balancing act.

My advice is not to go to Africa if you aren't prepared for joys, disappointments, a little danger and the possibilities of honest mistakes.

Perhaps the best way to avoid a "mistake" is to have a clear understanding with the P.H. that if you don't kill an elephant (or buffalo or tufted titmouse), you can live with it... P.H.'s, by their nature, are usually hard chargers. Also, "success" creates enhancement of reputation. Let them know that you will "still love them in the morning" so long as an honest effort is made and I think "mistakes" will be fewer.

BTW, about MJines.. He once told me that he had a rifle for sale. I offered him a price and he told me that it wasn't worth my offer and I had to come down. In shock, I didn't say anything, and Bill73 who was standing there, offered a low enough price and got the gun. Damnest bidding I ever was a part of!

Mike is one of the good guys for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I've been in the African hunting industry (one way or another) for almost 30 years....... to be precise, 29 years and 2 months....... and in that time, I've hunted 6 African countries.

I keep the exact number of animals I've taken or been party to taking, private as I consider it )A) unsporting to keep count and (B) to be the business of myself and my maker....... but it's a considerable number and if you doubt the veracity of my experience, you'll find a fair amount of evidence of it on my websites and in my writings for a variety of magazines etc. I should say though, that I prefer to hunt other animals rather than Elephant and I have no doubt that at least one man here has probably hunted more Elephants in a year than I've hunted in my lifetime.......... and I'm more than happy with that situation.

That isn't meant to sound like I'm blowing my own trumpet.. I'm not, it's that (as I keep saying), it's impossible to give a sensible answer to the question.

BTW, I appreciate your point about Jesus, but I've never met him personally and would have serious doubts about anyone who might claim to have done so.

not meaning any disrespect but you obviously do keep count of the animals taken as you said it here yourself.


another way you could look at it is if a client wounds an animal, lets say a buffalo in this story 2 days later while looking for the wounded buff the PH see's something and says its the wounded buffalo. now the client not wanting to have to pay the trophy fee without having anything to show for it jumps out of the truck and gets on the sticks, shoots, and the buffalo is down now upon walking up the client notices no wounds on the buffalo.

now he has just shot a perfectly health buffalo.. whos fault is this.

remember you dont have much time with "wounded" animals

Good to see you here Buzz. Welcome.

Johnny Z

No offence taken. I think you'll find I've never mentioned numbers here or anywhere else.

Buzz,

Welcome to the forum. I met Myles in Dar a few years ago (think I missed you by 24 hours) and would be grateful if you'd give him my regards next time you see him please.

With Ivan, Craig and Buzz here now, there's gonna be a massive wealth of Elephant info here.

This is a simple question. It is always the shooter who is in control of the shot. you never never shot anything at any time if you can not see clearly what your shooting. It's not the PH who's pulling the trigger. So take respoinsability for your shot suck it up and be glad you had a good hunt.Smile and tell a great story of a good hunt. If all you want was big ivory your not hunting for the right reasons in my humble oppinion. PH's and outfitters are under enough pressure without cry baby's wanting freebies. GET OVER IT YOU SHOT IT

Buzz,

Welcome to the forum. I still recall fondly the PAC ele hunt I did with CMS safaris. I look forward to another opportunity to hunt with you or Myles in the future.

And while I am sure it is not a scenario that Buzz likes to dwell on, I think it speaks volumes that a PH of his expereince and reputaion will admit that he has once made a mistake. It happens to PH's, as well as clients.
Yes, even PH's are human!

What I find interesting about the responses to this scenario are the huge variance in expectations. The situation as presented is pretty clear, in my opinion. (Things never happen this clearly in real life, but I think the situation as described leaves little room for dispute.) I do believe the shooter always bears ultimate responsibility for the shot. I also believe the PH bears siginificant responsibility for balancing / adjusting the costs of a hunt. While few hunts these days have profit margin approaching the cost of an ele trophy fee, there is some profit margin in any hunt, or the PH wouldn't be there.

My personal expectactions would be for the PH to eat the expected profit from this hunt. In other words, offer "X" discount on the total hunt package, even though we are talking a very small percentage of the total cost. It is more about taking some responsibilty at this point than saying I can't budge a nickel.

Alternately, in the unlikely event additional ele quota is still available, offer another ele hunt at true cost and make damn sure you produce the second time around. Or maybe offer a buffalo or some other available animal to the client at cost. A PH who doesn't make any show of contrition after an event like the original premise, would have my eternal disrespect.

Bill

First Tessebe I ever shot was on my second safari with a Ph who was and still is a good friend. I had made my first safari with him and had every confidence in his judgement as I still do. We had been hunting hard for a nice one and they were plentiful but skittish to say the least with good lookouts in rather open country. Finally had several in a singlefile just trotting at a liesurely pace. The PH said take the 3rd one which I promptly did and he went down.Turned out he was a she. I had shot the 3rd from the front and he meant the 3rd from the rear (which was closer to us I will admit as they were angling away from us) and we had an improper kill. The property owner came by as we were skinning it out and got really upset that I had shot a female. He insisted I should go out immediately and shoot a proper male. I paid for the animal and declined the offer as really a female Tessebe is as good as a male to me. Whose fault was it, who knows and who really cares. Such errors happen and I really don't know how they can actually be prevented. It was a GOOD hunt and I shall forever have memories of it that are pleasant and satisfying ones. Would I make the same mistake today ,probably. Would it upset me, no.

Like in most things in life, the only PH's that can claim never having made a mistake, are the novices and the bull-shitters...

Well Hello too the forum Buzz, Hopefully will see you in Reno again ? How has your season been ?

Karl , man now I know I am not the only one that has paid for a cow Buff, does not make me feel better, just knowing next time we will have a long drink on that

Some of us fess up too our mistakes, other laugh at us for making them, thinking we are immune too being fragile stupid human beings, the clever bastards that claim they have never made a mistake -

Good for you, but I will drink my own whiskey thank you

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
Like in most things in life, the only PH's that can claim never having made a mistake, are the novices and the bull-shitters...

So true!

Buzz,

Good to see you here.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by llamapacker:
Buzz,

Welcome to the forum. I still recall fondly the PAC ele hunt I did with CMS safaris. I look forward to another opportunity to hunt with you or Myles in the future.

And while I am sure it is not a scenario that Buzz likes to dwell on, I think it speaks volumes that a PH of his expereince and reputaion will admit that he has once made a mistake. It happens to PH's, as well as clients.
Yes, even PH's are human!

What I find interesting about the responses to this scenario are the huge variance in expectations. The situation as presented is pretty clear, in my opinion. (Things never happen this clearly in real life, but I think the situation as described leaves little room for dispute.) I do believe the shooter always bears ultimate responsibility for the shot. I also believe the PH bears siginificant responsibility for balancing / adjusting the costs of a hunt. While few hunts these days have profit margin approaching the cost of an ele trophy fee, there is some profit margin in any hunt, or the PH wouldn't be there.

My personal expectactions would be for the PH to eat the expected profit from this hunt. In other words, offer "X" discount on the total hunt package, even though we are talking a very small percentage of the total cost. It is more about taking some responsibilty at this point than saying I can't budge a nickel.

Alternately, in the unlikely event additional ele quota is still available, offer another ele hunt at true cost and make damn sure you produce the second time around. Or maybe offer a buffalo or some other available animal to the client at cost. A PH who doesn't make any show of contrition after an event like the original premise, would have my eternal disrespect.

Bill

Bill
There is PH and there is Outfitter - There are more PHs than outfitters.
PHs don't really profit much from the cost of a hunt except for when they occasionally book the hunt from which they
may collect the "agent's commission".
Their salaries vary from country to country and may earn as little as $75 to a max.$450 per day (very few outfitters pay
this figure) - the higher the daily rate the higher the daily wage (obvious).
On assumption that the average fee is set at around $250/day could you really expect the PH to reimburse the cost
of the hunt?
PHs who are employed by an outfitter really have no jurisdiction on quota management which again, varies from
country to country - in some places the outfitter buys and pays for the quota up front, in other places the
quota is paid for once the animal has been culled.
Given the current economic factors for securing a 21st century hunt and in order to reduce the possibilities of errors
similar to the one raising the kerfuffle, clients should also adopt a different approach before squeezing the trigger if
they have the slightest of doubt; even it if means losing the only chance they have, failure of which may give rise to an
eventual balls up then laying the blame on the PH just because of his title.
Some PHs are still in the "weening" stage and trying their damned best to make a name for themselves while others who have
already made their bones are somewhat wiser and less likely to find themselves in such awkward situations. JMO

quote:

Given the current economic factors for securing a 21st century hunt and in order to reduce the possibilities of errors
similar to the one raising the kerfuffle, clients should also adopt a different approach before squeezing the trigger if
they have the slightest of doubt; even it if means losing the only chance they have, failure of which may give rise to an
eventual balls up then laying the blame on the PH just because of his title.
Some PHs are still in the "weening" stage and trying their damned best to make a name for themselves while others who have
already made their bones are somewhat wiser and less likely to find themselves in such awkward situations.

Spot on!

[/QUOTE]
Bill
There is PH and there is Outfitter - There are more PHs than outfitters.
PHs don't really profit much from the cost of a hunt except for when they occasionally book the hunt from which they
may collect the "agent's commission".
Their salaries vary from country to country and may earn as little as $75 to a max.$450 per day (very few outfitters pay
this figure) - the higher the daily rate the higher the daily wage (obvious).
[/QUOTE]

Kibokolambogo,

I think most of us understand the difference between a PH an the Operator. For me personally, I have booked all of my safaris with relatively small outfits, where in most cases the PH IS the operator. At most there were 3 or 4 PH's working together under the same umbrella. Most were single PH / Operator outfits.

You may have misunderstood my suggestion for some compensation / ownership from the PH. If the PH says, the best I can do is knock a thousand dollars off the total price of the trip, there is at least some acceptance of at least partial responsibility from the PH. Of course this comes nowhere near the cost of the ele hunt. Offering a reduced future booking falls into the same category, in my opinion. There is at least some small attempt to make things right. I've noticed a few responses that seem to indicate the PH should do nothing, becauses sometimes SH&*t happens. I can think of relatively few professions that have that kind of freedom from responsibility for their professional errors. You will also notice that I do believe the shooter has ultimate responsibility for any animal he shoots.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
Being old, deaf and half-blind, and still going on safaris, I find that P.H.'s have a secret language that only binoculars can understand. When they are glassing/judging game, I try to figure out what they are saying

On my first trip to Tanzania my PH was glassing a zebra and I thought I heard him tell me to shoot. I am fairly quick on the trigger and dropped him. Right after the shot he looked at me and asked why did I shoot, he was not sure if it was a stallion. I attributed it to my poor hearing and probably being a little anxious. I told him I pulled the trigger and whatever happens it was my responsibility. Luckily it was a lowly zebra and not an elephant, but it turned out to be a stallion.

quote:

And while I am sure it is not a scenario that Buzz likes to dwell on, I think it speaks volumes that a PH of his expereince and reputaion will admit that he has once made a mistake.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Welcome, Buzz. People here have certainly seen enough pics and read a lot about you. Glad to see that you've decided to come in from the cold.

I had the very thing happen on buffalo last year in the Zambezi valley. We'd been tracking buffalo for 5 days, and I had made it clear to the PH that I intended a great buffalo, even if we spent the entire 15 day hunt getting one, to the exclusion of everything else. On day five, late in the day, and after tracking the same group literally all day, we got into the thick stuff and the PH thought we had the bull at 50 yards. I shot the bull on the shoulder, and it turned out to be a mediocre 37 incher. We were both looking at the same bull, and I suppose there was a chance the smaller one walked in front as we were readying the shot, but I never blamed the PH. It was a great hunt, and I'll never forget the challenge of tracking buffalo in the valley. I'm disappointed over the bull, but it certainly did not cast any pale over the hunt for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
Like in most things in life, the only PH's that can claim never having made a mistake, are the novices and the bull-shitters...

My thoughts exactly!

Buzz,
It has been almost 4 years since we met. I hope you are doing well.

Andy

Buzz,

Welcome to the Forums.

Enjoyed your visit last time you were in Dubai, and look forward to seeing you again.

quote:

Originally posted by llamapacker:

Bill
There is PH and there is Outfitter - There are more PHs than outfitters.
PHs don't really profit much from the cost of a hunt except for when they occasionally book the hunt from which they
may collect the "agent's commission".
Their salaries vary from country to country and may earn as little as $75 to a max.$450 per day (very few outfitters pay
this figure) - the higher the daily rate the higher the daily wage (obvious).
[/QUOTE]

Kibokolambogo,

I think most of us understand the difference between a PH an the Operator. For me personally, I have booked all of my safaris with relatively small outfits, where in most cases the PH IS the operator. At most there were 3 or 4 PH's working together under the same umbrella. Most were single PH / Operator outfits.

You may have misunderstood my suggestion for some compensation / ownership from the PH. If the PH says, the best I can do is knock a thousand dollars off the total price of the trip, there is at least some acceptance of at least partial responsibility from the PH. Of course this comes nowhere near the cost of the ele hunt. Offering a reduced future booking falls into the same category, in my opinion. There is at least some small attempt to make things right. I've noticed a few responses that seem to indicate the PH should do nothing, becauses sometimes SH&*t happens. I can think of relatively few professions that have that kind of freedom from responsibility for their professional errors. You will also notice that I do believe the shooter has ultimate responsibility for any animal he shoots.
Bill[/QUOTE]
Bill,

You have used the word PH in a generic term and hence the reason for my outlining the difference between PHs and Outfitters/Operators.
Yes, I agree that some outfitters/operators also take up the role of PH but these are few and far between - the majority of
PHs are mere employees trying to make a living (rather frugal) from this industry and are in no juridical position to offer discounts or refunds on something which is not theirs to discount.
When hunting species that are regulated by CITES I would think there should be more dialogue and responsibilities taken by the parties
rather than accepting a situation for granted.
Errors, however, do happen and should be accepted as part of the game, bitter as may be.
If the affected party feels that the PH has erred through negligence, unqualified or through plain irrational actions, feel free
to report him to his employer or worse, to the licensing authorities for whatever penalty may eventually be meted out.
Also remember that whilst you can come to some arrangement in burying a common/minor balls-up it would be pretty difficult in burying an elephant.
An Operator/PH may indeed offer some form of compromise if he were the landowner (S.A) or owner of the concession quota - it would however
be somewhat difficult to "just go and shoot another elephant" to make up for the botched job.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I am going to be a contrarian here.

I had a very similar experience to the hypothetical presented above. We tracked two bulls into a thick patch of jess. The bulls kept moving around in the thicket and we would catch brief glimpses of each and then they would disappear. They started getting nervous and were about to bolt. We rounded a corner and saw the bull we thought to be the biggest facing us. I was told to shoot, I took the shot and the bull dropped to a perfect frontal brain shot. When we approached the PH -- not me -- acknowledged that it was the smaller of the two bulls. He seemed almost apologetic. Turns out that the bulls had swapped positions in the bush just as we rounded the corner. I never hestitated, I told the PH that it was my bull, I was proud of it, I was proud to have hunted it, the trackers had done an outstanding job and the bull was killed with a perfect frontal brain shot. It was not the PH's fault, it was not my fault, it was simply the way things played out in the uncertain game we call hunting. If the quality of my hunt and my enjoyment of the experience was going to depend on whether or not we shot the bigger of the two in thick bush, I would just as soon stay home. Would I rather have shot the bigger bull, would my PH have rather I shot the bigger bull, sure. Was my hunt any less memorable or enjoyable, absolutely not. One of the problems I have with society today is any time there is a problem we have to find someone to blame or hold responsible. Fact is sometimes, despite our efforts, things just go wrong or not as we would have planned. Wish I could hunt that bull again tomorrow.

You're welcome at my camp fire anytime.

i have just seen this thread having just got in from botswana ..

welcome buzz ...its time you learned to type my friend !!!

some very interesting poiunts ..

i like what someone said , any ph who has never made a mistake is either in his first season or full of s%*it !

lets talk about the hippo someone mentioned earlier ... if a ph guarantees its a bull , he is setting himself up , i always tell the guy , i am 90% sure , if you are happy with 90% pull the trigger , if not the only thing to do is try our best to find one out of water !

i was very lucky once to have a spanish guy who was truly mad at hippos , in dande north and chewore north in ten days we shot six bulls ...actually only 4 bulls had what it take to make them bulls !!!! i put the heads altogether and looked closely , , i have been very lucky since then but never guarantee it ...

lets go back to the situation described in the very first post on the thread ...

if the ph said he saw the tusks and said he was a big one , yet didnt really see them and was caught up in the moment , that was bad ...

as buzz outlined regardless of right or wrong , to expect the ph to have the $$ to pay is not realistic ...

lat year i was hunting in the valley , we saw a great 40 pounder , we watched him for quite some time , the bush was open and i saw him from every angle ...i was with an older gentleman who couldnt walk well or quietly so unlike my usual preference we sidebrained him at about 20 yards ...thats simply what the gentlemans abilities called for ...we killed him and as i walked up my heart sank , he was an old but small bodied bull , i had made a BIG mistake and he went high 20s ! i apologized and addressed the sitauation right then and there and he was so caught up in the moment he didnt care , later that night i readdressed the situation and he was very nice about it ...thank goodness ...

i dont believe its possible to get it right all the time , i have shot quite a number of elephants with clients and still get it wrong ...

weather the elephant is slightly bigger than expected or slightly smaller , to be honest 90% of the people i hunt with are after the experience as well as the trophy ....

i dont think there are hard and fast rules , if its handled humbly and gracefuly its very different to arrogantly and flippantly ... we get excited too ...and thats when we mess it up !

I think the simple answer is that as a client I would expect to take all the responsibility because I had been the one that actually squeezed the trigger and the final decision was mine. In the case of a huge mistake like shooting the wrong bull on the PH's recommendation I would expect some type of consideration.

When I hunt elephant again I will be looking for a bigger bull than I've previously taken. I would expect the PH would be very careful as to make sure the bull was what we were looking for. On my previous trophy bull hunt it had been determined that the bull was at least 17" at the lip and over 55 pounds and possiible 60 plus. The bull was 17.5" at the lip and 57x58 pounds. I would not have been upset if the bull had been a litte smaller but I would have been bugged if it had come in under 50.

In my case I know what I want and am happy to walk away if I don't find it so there really is no reason to not make sure we are on the right bull.

Mark

Hippos can sometimes be hard to sex and its a bugger when there's a lot of 'em in a small space and you're not sure if the client is seeing the same animal through his scope that you're referring to.

There used to be a series of waterholes in MK1 (that part of the block is now a photographic area) and as they dried up in turn, all the hippos would move into the last waterhole until there was more hippo than water. Getting them out of there after the shot was also a real PITA and I always preferred to look elsewhere when it was like that.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I am going to be a contrarian here.

I had a very similar experience to the hypothetical presented above. We tracked two bulls into a thick patch of jess. The bulls kept moving around in the thicket and we would catch brief glimpses of each and then they would disappear. They started getting nervous and were about to bolt. We rounded a corner and saw the bull we thought to be the biggest facing us. I was told to shoot, I took the shot and the bull dropped to a perfect frontal brain shot. When we approached the PH -- not me -- acknowledged that it was the smaller of the two bulls. He seemed almost apologetic. Turns out that the bulls had swapped positions in the bush just as we rounded the corner. I never hestitated, I told the PH that it was my bull, I was proud of it, I was proud to have hunted it, the trackers had done an outstanding job and the bull was killed with a perfect frontal brain shot. It was not the PH's fault, it was not my fault, it was simply the way things played out in the uncertain game we call hunting. If the quality of my hunt and my enjoyment of the experience was going to depend on whether or not we shot the bigger of the two in thick bush, I would just as soon stay home. Would I rather have shot the bigger bull, would my PH have rather I shot the bigger bull, sure. Was my hunt any less memorable or enjoyable, absolutely not. One of the problems I have with society today is any time there is a problem we have to find someone to blame or hold responsible. Fact is sometimes, despite our efforts, things just go wrong or not as we would have planned. Wish I could hunt that bull again tomorrow.

Mike's post is the right answer to the situation he was citing, and below is the answer to many other situations. In Mike's case there was no fault to confront the game animals made the mistake, not the men!

quote:

origenaly posted by Ganyana

Also, Many a PH working for an operator cannot afford that kind of fee, and the quota is not his to give you a replacement.

The operator may never hire that PH again if he belives it was the PH's fault, the client may not give him a tip, but certainly in Zim, the man who pulled the trigger is the man who pays the bill.

The only exception is...

On a night lion hunt on private land, a young male lion came into the bait. He was OK - fully grown, but with no great mane. The client wasn't the best shot in the world and the PH (who also happened to own the safari company) had a personal pollicy of always backing his clients up...

Shoot, shoot! Client took a long time looking over the lion, bought his rifle up, looked through the scope and had just decided that it wasn't good enough when the PH's rifle went off! He had been "hanging on the tigger" (ie hoping to get his shot off so close to the clients that the client would never know he had fired (a common PH tick)- unfortunately the client hadn't fired.

Equally unfortunately the appie let the cat out of the bag, and folks still ask him if he has the taste of crow in his mouth every time he sees a lion

These things happen all the time when hunting, and there is no real answer to cover all situations.

In my case the first example that started this thread, was a real screw-up, and it isn't the mistake that bothers me but the attitude of the outfitter, and the PH with their "TAKE IT 0r LEAVE IT" attitude would have been a little hard to take.
I'm not sure how I would have handled it there, but if he thought the hunt was over he would have been sadly mistaken, because I would have used up every day of that hunt, ate, and drank everything in the kitchen, and we would have done a lot of sight seeing from his vehicle. The tips would have gone 100 % to the camp staff.

This would not have happened to me, because I will not pull the trigger on any animal I can't see clearly, no matter what the PH says, because it is my final decision after all. In a case like Mike's anyone could have made that mistake, and that case is simply the meaning of the word HUNTING! Sometimes you get the lion, and sometimes he gets you! Nobody's fault, just the way it is!

quote:

[QUOTE] origenaly posted by Ganyana



The only exception is...

On a night lion hunt on private land, a young male lion came into the bait. He was OK - fully grown, but with no great mane. The client wasn't the best shot in the world and the PH (who also happened to own the safari company) had a personal pollicy of always backing his clients up...

Shoot, shoot! Client took a long time looking over the lion, bought his rifle up, looked through the scope and had just decided that it wasn't good enough when the PH's rifle went off! He had been "hanging on the tigger" (ie hoping to get his shot off so close to the clients that the client would never know he had fired (a common PH tick)- unfortunately the client hadn't fired.

Equally unfortunately the appie let the cat out of the bag, and folks still ask him if he has the taste of crow in his mouth every time he sees a lion

Just noticed this....

The PH had a personal policy of always backing his clients up? You mean no matter what? I certainly wouldn't want to hunt with a PH who has that policy. How ridiculous.


'He had been "hanging on the tigger" (ie hoping to get his shot off so close to the clients that the client would never know he had fired (a common PH tick)- unfortunately the client hadn't fired.'

I don't think this is a common PH trick, certainly not amongst the PH's I know. How demeaning - treating the hunter like a child and not even having the balls to come straight about backing up! I know that if I was the client, things weren't discussed and some tosser PH just pulled the shoot/shoot bull with me, he would be the one paying for his trophy. I agree with backing up in certain situations but this case scenario sucks.

David

Mac, you are a clever boy.

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
Mac, you are a clever boy.

F%^&* ups do happen and are apart of any Safari. But at the end of the day, Its your baby and the PH is only there to guide you to the best of his ability .
A "Guide" would be a more appropriate name imo.

This last year I made a mistake on a Kudu.
My client, his 3rd time with me, wanted a really big Kudu. We shot one of 53", as soon as we shot it I just knew that it was not the one he really wanted. I offered him another for free, easy as I am the operator and could afford it.

About 15 years ago I was still hunting as a freelance hunter, I owned a Land cruiser, a rifle and a Dog, when I made a mistake on a Sable in south Africa. Big $$$$. If I had to pay for it, I would have to sell my Land cruiser to afford it. I offered the Client my Ph Wage for the whole hunt. He declined and said that he was happy with his medium sized Sable, I still have a tremendous amount of respect for Him. Such a Gentleman.

To MJines. I would hunt with you any day.