The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Mark Sullivan won't be at SCI 2010Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Peter, Funny how Robert Louis Stevenson's poems seem to be so underrated..... I've always loved 'em. Here's another of his: The Vagabond By Robert Louis Stevenson Give to me the life I love, Let the lave go by me, Give the jolly heaven above And the byway night me. Bed in the bush with stars to see, Bread I dip in the river -- There's the life for a man like me, There's the life for ever. Let the blow fall soon or late, Let what will be o'er me; Give the face of earth around And the road before me. Wealth I seek not, hope nor love, Nor a friend to know me; All I seek, the heaven above And the road below me. Or let autumn fall on me Where afield I linger, Silencing the bird on tree, Biting the blue finger; White as meal the frosty field -- Warm the fireside haven -- Not to autumn will I yield, Not to winter even! Let the blow fall soon or late, Let what will be o'er me; Give the face of earth around, And the road before me. Wealth I ask not, hope, nor love, Nor a friend to know me. All I ask, the heaven above And the road below me. you're right.... much more interesting than MS etc!  | |||
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You guys are too culturally refined for me. The only poem I can quote starts off with: There once was a man named Dave......... LOL | |||
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Larry, You'd enjoy Eskimo Nell then! Actually, I don't think I know anyone who doesn't!  | |||
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Should have never let that first health-care reform bill pass!!! Its down hill from there. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Personally, I don't think providing coverage of United States Outfitters is very ethical, but Boddington gives them tons of coverage. He totally ignored the Arizona controversy a few years ago. USO is one of the most unethical organizations around, so why support them? It is certainly not in hunting's best interest to do so, unless of course, you think only wealthy hunters should get out of state tags. And speaking of ethics, never attempt to judge someone's personal ethics unless you know them very well. Professional ethics, as many pointed out, are fair game if used to generate publicity, profit, etc. | |||
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Hmmmm... cutting one's spaghetti is obviously SO bourgeois; like ordering a drink at a restaurant and requesting "house" tequila. The non disclosure is a cute move, but truthfully; anyone on this kind of hunt would likely greatly fear the truth coming out more than any legal sanctions that might be imposed. Imagine your peers seeing the footage that did not make it into the video. You, botching the shot. Rich | |||
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AnotherAZWriter:
 Thanks for quoting my post, but I am at a bit of a loss here. Not trying to be difficult, but... I was not personally familiar with USO until this post (I am not a hard core Boddington lover or hater) or the "Arizona controversy" (probably much more visible to someone in Arizona?). I see on-line that USO is a service company who describes themselves as:
Can you elaborate on why you think they are unethical? Perhaps I am naive and "been too busy too long", but it sounds like a useful service at first glance. I'd frame them as similar to "meet and greet" firms who smooth the process of getting licenses and permits and clearing customs and such, helping with forms and submittals etc. Like a Travel Agent making things easier than doing it myself. Isn't that part of what we pay any outfitter to do? Can't other "out of state" hunters get access to the same forms and opportunities? The difference I see is that they have to wade through the paperwork themselves, fill the forms - in short invest their time instead of money. There is a cost for all of us, so how is it unethical? Is there some corruption involved? Don't they play by the same rules? Help me out here, I'm not seeing it. I am not sure if you thought I defended the ethics of SCI, as that was not my intention. I only meant to imply that if they put on the show, they get to set the rules, and you can elect to react accordingly. In the past some chapters of SCI acted accordingly and now there are outfits like DSC. If MS doesn't like the rules he should not attend (or work to get the rules changed). He can open a location near the hall and advertise his presence. If I agree to the rules and break them, I should expect the results, and maybe that's what we have here (as some assume), I don't know. And, I do appreciate that they (SCI) are image conscious and can set rules to project the image they desire because it's their money. I've ditched customers before for the good of the company in the long run. As far as judging ethics - I'm not sure I understand the comment. Was I judgemental about someone's "personal ethics"? Or was that a general comment? Sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean. Thanks. Steve H NRA Benefactor Member "Most of my money I spent on reloading, hunting and shooting...the rest I just wasted." | |||
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I personally think cutting lasagna is SO bourgeois as well...  You're probably right. If indeed it was a botched shot (the best case scenario), but even harder to admit if some of the allegations made here of deliberate wounding are true. But what of the others along the way - many folks are involved in the process who hold no gun... Steve H NRA Benefactor Member "Most of my money I spent on reloading, hunting and shooting...the rest I just wasted." | |||
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Steve: I was not criticizing you or anyone else. My point is this: Mark S. may be a total jerk in "our world" but he may be the kindest, most considerate person out there. He might be the best husband or father. Who knows? He doesn't write about and/or film his personal life. As for United States Outfitters, I have nothing but contempt for them. Do a search; you will see that they tried to sue the State of Arizona to eliminate out of state quotas under interstate commerce laws. In the end, AZ would have responded by increasing the cost of non-resident licenses to put a de facto cap on non-resident hunting pressure. The result would effectively make it easier for wealthy hunters to get permits - there is a limit to those who would pay $5,000 for an elk tag for example. This would cause hunters of moderate means in other states to simply give up. And when Joe the Plumber gives up on his dream of hunting elk in the West, he stops buying bullets, powder, rifles, etc. In the end, we all lose. If you have the quid, you can always buy special tags - that ought to be good enough. The influence of money is killing our sport. Many suppliers, such as Barnes Bullets, dropped their support of a USO show that I don't think is even on the air anymore. We don't need outdoor writers supporting groups like USO. Say what you want about Zumbo's dumb diatribe on ARs, but at least he pledged never to use USO again. I wish Craig would do the same. There are others who offer tag services, etc. By the way, it would be best for me if there were no limits on non-resident tags; I make enough to do all the hunting I want to do, and I can take off all the time I want to. But in the end, it isn't about me. It is about our passionate lifestyle and ensuring we pass the torch to the next generation. | |||
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AAW: I suppose USO wouldn't put that on their website...I wouldn't think the ICC would hold up in court, but who knows with courts today? Are they still at it, and / or in other states? As far as personal vs professional ethics, I was thinking about your earlier post. I submit that "professional" or business ethics must be a "subset" of personal ethics. How could someone claim good ethics "personally" if they fail to act ethically in their profession? An old joke sets it up: A multi-millionaire sees a beautiful woman walking down the street and has his limo driver stop next to her. "You are the most beautiful creature I have ever laid eyes on, I am smitten, I must have you tonight - would you sleep with me for a million dollars?" he says to her. "Oh my, I never, I mean, a MILLION dollars? I, well, I shouldn't, I mean I'm not that kind, I have never done...OH, OK for a million I'll do it!" she answers. "Would you do it for a thousand dollars?" he counters. "WHAT? What do you think I am?" she cries. "We've already established that, now we're negotiating price..." he says. If I lie to you to sell you something second hand but not as my livelyhood is that ethical? Not for me. If I charge you for work I didn't do, or I use something once then return it for a refund because I can, it's still unethical. You are what you do - all the time. You don't get to pick and choose - ask Tiger Woods. He's a great golfer, and an adulterer. Simple facts by his own admission. The analysts say that it will cost him millions in his lifetime revenues...that's expensive I don't care who you are! Maybe he should have hired a professional (or ten)?  You are what you do. All of it, all the time, it's you. You wear it all, own it all. I reject any separation as rationalization. What do you think? Steve H NRA Benefactor Member "Most of my money I spent on reloading, hunting and shooting...the rest I just wasted." | |||
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Exactly. And I repeat...
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Since I can't bring myself to watch them... I take it that there is proof in the videos of unethical behavior? Or do you simply mean MS lacks humility or other social grace? Keep in mind I don't appreciate his "art" either, but there are some pretty stout claims running around loose here....innocent until... Steve H NRA Benefactor Member "Most of my money I spent on reloading, hunting and shooting...the rest I just wasted." | |||
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Steve: Tiger is a good example. He may be ethical in golf (I don't know, I am not a golfer) but he needs work on the home front. The same can be said for most outdoor writers. When I think of it, only two come to mind that have been married to one woman: Jack O'Connor and John Wooters. I didn't know O'Connor, but I know Wooters - he is the most ethical writer with whom I have ever conversed. Everyone has their warts, including me... | |||
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I was re-butting those folks that believe that Mark is such a great guy in person and that you can't have an opinion of "Mark the real person" until you know him. A bunch of bunk IMHO, since he has put himself in the public domain with his vids, books etc. We are all perfectly entitled to have a personal opinion of him personally based on what he portrays himself to be publicly.  For the record, I do think that the way he hunts in the videos is "unethical" (eg. not dispatching a wounded animal as quickly as they could, and killing his client's game when they could easily have done it themselves, etc). Mostly I just can't stand the rediculous rhetoric. Whether he and his clients purposely wound game in order to later provoke a charge is not my point, and is not explicit in the videos if that's what you're asking. | |||
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Totally agree Canuck. If you put yourself in the limelight, you better be prepared to take the knocks. | |||
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I can agree with those ideas. I might not think his hunts are ethical, but I won't tromp on his head for unsubstantiated claims, even if they sound logical. Some of the serious charges made without supporting names or dates makes me a bit nervous. I can see why the suspicions would arise based on anecdotal information, but that's not enough. And I don't know enough about the frequency of charges among the wider PH population who hunt the same terrain/techniques to know if MS even has a higher percentage for sure. I do think that approaching a wounded animal from the front is just plain foolhardy if other options exist. Enjoyed this, but time to turn in! Steve H NRA Benefactor Member "Most of my money I spent on reloading, hunting and shooting...the rest I just wasted." | |||
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Sullivan gets more charges per season than several PHs get in their entire life time! So what does that tell you? He is either the most incompetent man claiming to be a PH in history, or he is doing something drastically wrong. The same goes to those who actually hunt with him. | |||
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Az Writer, You are now implying getting divorced is unethical... I learn something new on AR every day Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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AAZ, you have obviously missed the most famous of the "never even looked at another woman after I met my wife" gentlemen, our esteemed, dare I say hallowed; Elmer Merrifield Keith. He met this cute schoolteacher at a dance he attended with Silas, and shortly thereafter they were married. Up at Weiser, where she taught school IIRC. We forgive you... Rich | |||
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AnotherAZWriter: Don't know whether divorce is unethical or not, but your circle of people whose livelihoods come from writing about outdoors themes must be pretty small if you believe that most outdoor writers need "work on the home front." For example, in our state, two of the best-known outdoor writers that Arizona produced (after Jack O'Connor, of course) were Ben Avery and Bob Hirsch, and both were married more than fifty years to just one woman each. My wife and I will celebrate our fifty-fifth anniversary in March. Also in Arizona, Holt Bodinson and Steve Comus (to my knowledge) also have had only one wife each and both have been married for many years. DeWayne Smith remarried, but only after his wife of many years died unexpectedly a few years ago. I could go on, and you obviously could cite many notable divorced outdoor writers, but it's doubtful that the percentage of broken marriages in our profession differs much from that of other occupations. Bill Quimby | |||
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Couldn't find MS on the Dallas list of exhibtors. | |||
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Chris, I agree with you 100% on the issue of his persona via the videos. But I also believe everyone that is "anti Sullivan" on the basis of ethics is on a slippery slope. The bottom line is no matter how you shoot the buffalo you have gone to Africa for pleasure which is derived from shooting the buffalo. There are only two ways to guarantee not wounding the buffalo. One is to have the muzzle in its ear and the other is not to shoot the buffalo. As soon as you fire the gun at the buffalo you have made an announcement to the world which is...For the sake of my pleasure I am prepared to risk causing this buffalo great pain and a lingering death so as to satisfy my pleasure.... You can dress the shooting in that bullshit Alf posted but that does not change the fact that you are prepared to wound the buffalo in exchange for your pleasure. You can say that Sullivan deliberately wounds the buffalo to increase the entertainment but a buffalo you wound does not care how it was done or the motive. If anyone is genuinely concerned about a buffalo being wounded....then they won't shoot at them. The slippery slope is the attitude that the buffalo's welfare is above all else. If that is the case you have said they should not be shot for your pleasure. | ||
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Shakari, re; Breaker Morant, have you read The Breaker, by Kit Denton. ISBN 0 207 14268 8. Throws a little light on the subject.  SUSTAINABLY HUNTING THE BLUE PLANET! "Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful, murder respectable and to give an appearence of solidity to pure wind." Dr J A du Plessis | |||
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Don't think I have buddy, but I'll make a point of doing so...... thanks for the tip!  | |||
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Bill: You are right, I didn't take a poll of outdoor communicators; I based this on my "favorite writers" and what I know of them. I brought this up when someone mentioned Tiger Woods, an apparently upstanding guy who we obviously didn't know THAT well - we only knew him "professionally." There are some great guys who have been divorced. I am just saying you don't know what a guys "personal" ethics are unless he writes about them. Again, I don't know MS, I don't like his videos, but he may be the kindest guy in the world outside of his profession. Maybe he devotes free time trying to help wounded veterans, etc. Maybe he is the greatest father and/or husband. The point is professional ethics and personal ethics are two totally different things and you can't judge one by looking at the other. I took a rip at Craig for his support of USO, but I will also say his service to our country is something all of us owe a debt of gratitude. To me, there is no higher calling; I am not sure it is an issue of ethics, but in my time in the Army ethics certainly came up as a frequent "professional" issue. Guys like Jorge have my utmost respect. What is your opinion of United States Outfitters? I noticed you didn't comment on that. Personally, I find them to be totally unethical, unless of course, you believe those with the biggest fist of dollars should get tags. Again, I am referring to their lawsuit a few years ago against our state. | |||
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AAW, I have no love lost for USO but not because of the tag service. I hunted once with them and it was like a factory pushing out speed goats. As to the big fists getting the tags, well that is the great USA and I wouldn't want it any other way, but you may see that change in the near future as our quasi socialist government continues on their merry way, but that is a whole nother subject. | |||
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I agree Chris 100% as well. The public perception via DVD's and books becomes one's persona. Whether a public hunting figure likes it or not, the way he or she is perceived through their works defines the way the public is going to accept that person privately. There is no separation anymore in today's world. Also it works the other way also. If someone screws up off camera, privately, it's going to affect the way the public perceives that person's craft, publically. The reality hunting video or sports star can't come back and say, "But wait a minute, that's not who I really am in real life!" The character displayed on video, will likely be the character that defines the individual. Sullivan's allure is that there's a little bit of bad boy, rogue and adventure in all of us. I might need KPete to flush this out for me, but I think I'm on the right track here. It's the rumor and ethical innuendo that has always confused us about this man. The uncertainty works for and against a celebrity. In Sully's case, the rumors from game scouts and PH's coupled with what's seen on video, have done him in. Charged, convicted, sentenced and imprisoned. But there's also a significant percentage of Sully supporters. America loves a "bad boy", and in the hunting world it's no different. They say, "This is all too unbelievable to be true. When I see proof I'll believe it." And that explains why we're now on page six of this thread. I'm guessing it could go to ten pages, as it attracts newbies with fresh opinions and when the long winded posters circle back. | |||
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Wow!!! MS to divorce!!!!! That is a leap! The day that divorce and ethics are linked...I guess I will have to move to Iceland! Having been in a similar situation as Tiger once in my life...I can sympathize!!! And I think all should just stay the hell out of his business. There is No correlation that I can see between MS and Tiger or Tiger and ethics. If Tiger told me how to hit a golf ball you can bet I would pay attention. I am not looking to MS on how to hunt DG though. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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If you want to compare Tiger Wood to Bunny Allen...well I could go there!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Me, personally, I'm a sheepdog. Other sheepdogs know what that means.
I just wanted to clarify that my hesitation to convict without evidence has nothing at all to do with being a supporter of MS. It's a principal thing. Steve H NRA Benefactor Member "Most of my money I spent on reloading, hunting and shooting...the rest I just wasted." | |||
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Its a total shame to ban Mark Sullivan from SCI Reno 2010,all on rumors and jealousy,its just plain slander.... | |||
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Where the H*ll is there slander. SCI operates a show and the say they don't want someone as a vendor where is the slander? | |||
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Well said!!! On a side note, I have heard the purpetuating rumor of MS's son Shawn being killed by a buff.. While I have no knowledge of this rumor's truth, I'd like to see if any of you can confirm or squelch this for me.. | |||
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Still boring | |||
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SG Olds, with 2010 practically upon us, I offer this in the spirit of the New Year. If it bores you, just choose not to keep looking at it. Rich | |||
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This tread makes me happy that, I've never seen a Mark Sullivan DVD and have little idea who he is AND that I am not a SCI member.   | |||
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Ordinarily I never bother to check in on such a long thread -but I did feel that I had to add that my own very good PH asked a question about the films I said I watched about Sullivan - "Had I ever seen sweat in t5he back of his shirts?" I was stunned by the question - because I was in Africa and there long enough to be sweating. I just don't know from lack of experience | |||
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That is exactly my point. Tiger's ability to hit a golf ball, for the most part, has nothing to do with his personal ethics. But it clearly doesn't reflect well on him. It has certainly cost him money. But I didn't bring up Tiger first anyway. Part of this debate is that you can't separate personal ethics from professional ethics; I say we do it all the time. You certainly would. Perhaps I use the word "ethical" when I should have used "virtuous." So you were married to a Swedish supermodel too, huh? | |||
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 Hence the word "similar"!!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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