It all comes down to respect for the game you hunt; and Mark Sullivan seems to totally lack that. I spoke with at least a dozen PHs at SCI and their comments ranged from "surely seems to get stuck with clients that can't shoot very well (or at all)" to "If you are not a dead shot he will work hard to kill your game for you, whether you want him to or not" to "Look at the carcasses, they must gut shoot everything..." to "they have more charges a season than I have had in the last ten (or more)". None of them had any respect for him or his methods. The closest thing to a neutral statement was one comment that "...you must decide your own level of hunting ethics, and choose a PH based on that and your pocketbook. He just seems to attract a certain class of client...".

Rich

Playing devil's advocate, is it possible that the reason that he gets so many charges is due to factors other than deliberate wounding?

Percentage wise most buffalo do not keel over at the first shot. From reading his book Mark doesn't wait at all to follow up on wounded bufffalo. Instead of waiting 30 minutes or so for the buff to "stiffen up" he charges in immediately to confront the animal. He deliberately approaches the animal where it can see him. He likes to invade the animal's personal space. This is what I believe is responsible for the high percntage of charges.

The reason that I bring this up is that I am unaware of any direct evidence that he deliberately wounds to get the results. There seems to be in my mind other plausible explanations for the charges. Yes there are rumors but I think that it is interesting that no legal action has been taken against him or has a client stepped forward to say that he witnessed anything dishonorable. In fact I am unaware of a post on AR from anyone that has actually hunted with him. I would think that if he had been engaging in any shady behavior something would have been done about it. Remember it has been almost 20 years since his first video.

Finally, I wanted to say that I don't know Mark personally. I met him once and we talked for 15-20 minutes. I have seen his videos and am reading his books. From what I have seen/read I don't see any direct evidencee that these rumors are true. I am just hoping for a more balanced approach to the whole debate.

Thanks

Larry I'm not Bill but he lives next door to me so your logic was sound .

It had been a couple years since I watched that video so I went back and rewatched it. It was hunt #6 on that video. Rewatching it, after the bull ran by, Mark commented that it had a bloody leg(I didn't remember him saying that before). It definitely looks like a bullet hole but I will concede it could have been done by a previous hunter or maybe even another hippo or croc.

So no it's not enough evidence to convict Mark of anything but it did bring up alot of suspicions after hearing all the wounding for charges talk for years and does seem like quite a coincidence. No proof has ever been documented against Mark, so maybe he is after all legit or maybe it's one hell of a non-disclosure agreement everyone signs.

I still believe he gives hunting a black eye but I'll leave it at that.

What other outfits/phs use the M. Sullivan approach? Do the people that hunt with him only hunt with him---doubt it.

I bet M. Sullivan is not the only "confront" the animal PH in Africa.

I suspect its his video style that distinguishes him and not the underlying philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I guess the only people who are less ethical about hunting than Mark Sullivan are those who pay him to shoot their animals.

Can you imgaine travelling half way across the world, and pay a lot of money, just so Mark Sullivan can have another ego trip and kill another poor buffalo forced to charge for his convenience.

The mind really boggles about the utter stupidity of some people.

I for one expect my PH to shoot if needed on follow-up, if I fail to do the job effectively. That's part of what I pay him/her to do. I certainly do not consider that being unethical. Part of my discussion with any PH or guide is my expectations. This helps to eliminate problems or confusion.

It is not unlike shooting pheasants with a bunch of friends. We all know who gets the 1st shot and when to assist. I don't see it as being much different. From my perspective, I see it as being ethical. If a client wants to do all the shooting I would expect that he/she would make that known to the PH. If the outcome was different than agreed they would have something to talk about.

I would not suggest someone is stupid for having an opposing view. How we each choose to spend our hard earned money is a personal choice. If I book with Sullivan, it is for the purpose of his knowledge and expertise in getting me close and sharing the skill in close quarters contact with dangerous game should it occur.

I don't interpret his videos as shooting game out from under his clients when up close. I see him call the shot when the distance is what he believes is correct for his style of hunting which is what the client is paying to experience and learn. Perhaps others see it different. I would not define it as unethical as you suggest. I am sure you are aware that other PHs hunt with Sullivan as well.

I would want to learn those skills from the most experienced in that situation if it was my desire to possibly experience it or learn effective techniques to survive should it happen to me unexpectedly.

I would not criticize someone for choosing not to get close if they had fear or preferred a different method. It might just not be what I would choose.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys01:

rxgremlin and express yourself,

do the two of you NOT find it odd that only Sullivan has these issues? Not to be cross, but have either of you hunted Dangerous Game in Africa yet? When I spend eleven to fifteen thousand dollars (or more) to hunt DG I expect to do the shooting and killing of my game. If you hunt with Sullivan HE expects to kill your game for you after making sure there is a wounded animal and a charge for his money making videos.
It seems to always be heroic MS saving the clown on a close up charge. He doesn't get the ego stroke of "saving" you if you kill the game neatly yourself. Soooo, that seldom happens on one of his safaris. He also seems to be the only PH who requires a non-disclosure contract on his hunts, curious as to why that is? My PH from a DG hunt in Zim told me at SCI Reno that Sullivan has more elephant charges every season than he has had in the last ten or eleven combined, and that is over 275 elephants for my guy.

research this issue a bit...

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
rxgremlin and express yourself,

do the two of you NOT find it odd that only Sullivan has these issues? Not to be cross, but have either of you hunted Dangerous Game in Africa yet? When I spend eleven to fifteen thousand dollars (or more) to hunt DG I expect to do the shooting and killing of my game. If you hunt with Sullivan HE expects to kill your game for you after making sure there is a wounded animal and a charge for his money making videos.
It seems to always be heroic MS saving the clown on a close up charge. He doesn't get the ego stroke of "saving" you if you kill the game neatly yourself. Soooo, that seldom happens on one of his safaris. He also seems to be the only PH who requires a non-disclosure contract on his hunts, curious as to why that is? My PH from a DG hunt in Zim told me at SCI Reno that Sullivan has more elephant charges every season than he has had in the last ten or eleven combined, and that is over 275 elephants for my guy.

research this issue a bit...

Rich

No offense intended, I am not interested in making the topic about me as I stated in my initial posts. I am also not looking for conflict either. I simply offered what I knew as opposed to speculation I had read. It is not my intention or my interest to simply argue for the sake of arguing. I am more interested in the facts surrounding the topic if there are any.

Q-Do you NOT find it odd that only Sullivan has these issues? **That is exactly my point. I find it odd that some feel compelled to state there is a problem yet nobody I have heard from yet has first-hand knowledge of any issue. I find that very odd.

Q-Not to be cross, but have you hunted Dangerous Game in Africa yet? When I spend eleven to fifteen thousand dollars (or more) to hunt DG I expect to do the shooting and killing of my game. If you hunt with Sullivan HE expects to kill your game for you after making sure there is a wounded animal and a charge for his money making videos. **How much I or anyone else spends annually on hunting in Africa and elsewhere does not have bearing on presenting facts as opposed to speculative information in my opinion. Since you mention that Sullivan expects to kill your game and makes sure an animal is wounded please share when this occurred with you while hunting with Sullivan or someone you know who experienced this while hunting with him. I would like to hear these facts if you have knowledge of them. As a side note, if you can get me those price deals in Tanzania please PM me your PH information. My latest trip is setting me back over $26K in Tanzania.

Your statement-It seems to always be heroic MS saving the clown on a close up charge. He doesn't get the ego stroke of "saving" you if you kill the game neatly yourself. Soooo, that seldom happens on one of his safaris.
**Since you mention that Sullivan's clients seldom kill their game on a safari with him, have you experienced that on a hunt with Sullivan or did someone you know experience it? Does that include the PHs that hunt with Sullivan or those not on tape? I recall seeing many clients on his videos kill their own animals. Is this not true?

Q-He also seems to be the only PH who requires a non-disclosure contract on his hunts, curious as to why that is? **Did Sullivan require you to sign a non-disclosure or a friend? Did he explain its purpose? Can you share its purpose as opposed to implying a sinister underlying reason is behind it?

Your statement-My PH from a DG hunt in Zim told me at SCI Reno that Sullivan has more elephant charges every season than he has had in the last ten or eleven combined, and that is over 275 elephants for my guy. **This is a great example of the presentation of non-fact as known information. Did you ask this PH where this information came from? Does your PH know how many elephant charges Sullivan has per season? If not, from where does this knowledge base come? Do you know how many elephant charges Sullivan has experienced? Do you know how many he takes on license on average? If you can't answer these questions you pose perhaps you should consider researching this issue a bit, to use your own words. I know I certainly would before I put them out as factual.

Look, I am not interested in offending you or anyone else who has an opposing opinion to my desire to simply learn some actual factual substantiated information. If you simply don't like Sullivan or his hunting style that is fine. I am certainly not interested in carrying his torch. I am simply saying don't disguise a dislike with non-information presented as known facts.

I don't want to speak for Shawn. He has spoken for himself already and I am in general agreement with him.

The point that I am trying to make is that simply that Mark has been widely accused of DELIBERATELY wounding game to entice the animal to charge. The evidence offered is always "My PH told me that...." or "People at SCI said...." Where is the actual evidence that Mark (or the client) sets out to wound the game for the sole purpose of getting the animal to charge? As I said before if Mark has really engaged in shady dealings why hasn't there been a lawsuit, an investigation or gov't (Tanzania) action taken against him. His first video came out 20 years ago. That seems ample time for something substantial to come out.

I am offering a different hypothesis: Mark gets charged because he wants to. Instead of cautiously following up a buff after it has been wounded, he charges in immediately. He approaches the animal where it can see him and (to use his term) violates his private space. It isn't an "issue", it is deliberate. He wants that buffalo to come after him. He makes it painfully clear in his books that is his style.

I think it is easier for people who don't like his style to perpetuate this rumor that he deliberately wounds instead of taking the time to understand how/why he hunts. He makes it clear in his books that he doesn't need to ask the client to wound the animal. He says that most clients aren't great shots to begin with and gives several examples to prove his point.

I don't believe that he is in this solely for the money. He walked away from a successful career to become a professional hunter in Tanzania. Nobody gives this guy credit for doing what very, very few Americans have done. It is true that now a very well known PH who has a line of best selling videos but he started on the path to being a PH in 1982. It wasn't until 1990 that he had his first video come out. Seems to me that there are move proven ways to make money in a shorter time than becoming a PH in Africa.

I also don't buy the argument that he is especially damaging to the sport of hunting. In a brief Internet search his name doesn't come up at all on anti-hunting websites and blogs. If anti hunters want ammunition all they have to do is tune into the couple of outdoor channels on television. They can see all the stereotypical hunting shows they want. You can see disrespect for animals, unethical behavior and what passes for fair chase. The antis hate hunting in all forms, they don't differentiate between a charging buffalo or a warthog shot over a waterhole. To protect our sport we need to join ranks and that includes with people like Mark.

Finally on the issue of shooting clients game. In my opinion there are times that Mark seems a little quick on the trigger in his videos. If I were being charged I would want backup but if not then I wouldn't want the PH to shoot. That is between Mark and his clients. I have also seen many times on his videos where that doesn't happen. Remember people hunt with Mark because they like and agree with the way he hunts. By the way where did this non-disclosure thing come from? He never mentioned it to me and I'm curious if anyone has any proof that it exists?

Shawn summed up his feelings better than I can sum up my own. If you don't like Mark Sullivan that is fine but don't present hearsay as fact.

I just don't understand why not one of his clients has come forth and accused him of deliberately wounding animals or staging a hunt. I'm honestly trying to keep an open mind and come to an opinion on the man, but it needs to be based on facts not personal dislikes or rumors.
Some have even accused his clients of being of low character since they hunt with Sullivan, otherwise they would not be hunting with him. And that's a terrible form of logic.
He's been a PH for 20 years now, that's an awful lot of bad men. The couple of videos I have seen I noticed that the clients shoot first and I must say not everyone is a dead-sure marksman with a high-caliber rifle. Therefore, one-shot kills are rare.
I would love to hear from people who have actually hunted with him or watch him hunt.
Would I hunt with him? Only if he understands that I will do all the shooting unless the animal is on top of me...then he has my blessing to shoot. Am I a bad man? none of my friends, my family or the many charities I have donated to seem to think I am.
I think having a scientific background makes me more likely to demand facts before I make up my mind.

Gentlemen - I think we have all lost the plot here !

Granted - Mark Sullivan may be a nice guy to talk to - but what he represents as a "professional" has ALWAYS been a contentious issue among Africas PH's

We as African PH's and Outfitters are basically pissed off with Sullivan because of his total DISRESPECT for one of the oldest hunting professions in the world !

His lack of respect shown towards Africa, our profession, and the humane killing of our game animals in the way he hunts, and what he represents is questionable at the best of times

Hunting is a noble sport, and should be treated that way, not sensationalised for the sake of an overgrown ego or selling movies !

We have enough problems within the african hunting industry, caused by some of our own dodgy PH's and Outfitters, that we do not need anymore cowboys adding fat to the fire !

What amazes me is howcome Sullivan seems to have more charges than some of Africas top senior DG PH's - such as Harry Selby, Robin Hurt, Nicky Blunt and others put together over their life time.

You seldom hear of these gentlemen sensationalising or bragging about their encounters with dangerous game. Thats probably why they are respected as true professionals by their peers.

One always shows more empathy towards things that are closer to home - and if you are not born and raised in Africa, then personally I think one lacks that special connection that binds you to its animals and the outdoors - so it is therefore maybe easier to be less emotionable in your hunting methods by this lack of empathy !

I wonder what the reaction would be if an African PH came to the US and decided to practice the same tactics as Mark Sullivan has done in Africa, on North Americas prime dangerous game animal the Grizzly Bear !!???

I am sure all kinds of hell will be raised - and his head will roll pretty quickly !

Maybe because of this, Sullivan decided to try his luck in Africa - and once again Africa sits with the bad rap !

quote:

Originally posted by Mark DeWet:
Gentlemen - I think we have all lost the plot here !

Granted - Mark Sullivan may be a nice guy to talk to - but what he represents as a "professional" has ALWAYS been a contentious issue among Africas PH's

We as African PH's and Outfitters are basically pissed off with Sullivan because of his total DISRESPECT for one of the oldest hunting professions in the world !

His lack of respect shown towards Africa, our profession, and the humane killing of our game animals in the way he hunts, and what he represents is questionable at the best of times

Hunting is a noble sport, and should be treated that way, not sensationalised for the sake of an overgrown ego or selling movies !

We have enough problems within the african hunting industry, caused by some of our own dodgy PH's and Outfitters, that we do not need anymore cowboys adding fat to the fire !

What amazes me is howcome Sullivan seems to have more charges than some of Africas top senior DG PH's - such as Harry Selby, Robin Hurt, Nicky Blunt and others put together over their life time.

You seldom hear of these gentlemen sensationalising or bragging about their encounters with dangerous game. Thats probably why they are respected as true professionals by their peers.

One always shows more empathy towards things that are closer to home - and if you are not born and raised in Africa, then personally I think one lacks that special connection that binds you to its animals and the outdoors - so it is therefore maybe easier to be less emotionable in your hunting methods by this lack of empathy !

I wonder what the reaction would be if an African PH came to the US and decided to practice the same tactics as Mark Sullivan has done in Africa, on North Americas prime dangerous game animal the Grizzly Bear !!???

I am sure all kinds of hell will be raised - and his head will roll pretty quickly !

Maybe because of this, Sullivan decided to try his luck in Africa - and once again Africa sits with the bad rap !

“Granted - Mark Sullivan may be a nice guy to talk to - but what he represents as a "professional" has ALWAYS been a contentious issue among Africa’s PH's.

We as African PH's and Outfitters are basically pissed off with Sullivan because of his total DISRESPECT for one of the oldest hunting professions in the world!

Hunting is a noble sport, and should be treated that way, not sensationalized for the sake of an overgrown ego or selling movies!


Mark,

***Thank you for being the first, to my knowledge, to step forward and present how this came about and why this is occurring. I for one suspected as much and I appreciate you’re being candid.

quote:

such as Harry Selby, Robin Hurt, Nicky Blunt and others put together over their life time.

Mark,

You are comparing chalk and cheese here.

I have hunted with several PHs, adding their years in the field would probably pass 100 years, and all of them together have not had even a small percentage of the charges Mark Sullivan has.

What does that tell you?

In the simplest form, this means he is doing something drastically wrong.

If he is doing this on purpose, then he certainly is NOT living up to what his title says he is, a professional hunter.

If he is doing it by accident, then he should not be guiding hunters in the field.

I had one of his defenders saying that I should go hunt with Sullivan, to get a first hand experience.

I told him I would give up hunting rather than hunt with someone like Mark Sullivan.

Everything he does, and shows so proudly in his videos, stands against what I believe hunting should be.

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark DeWet:
Gentlemen - I think we have all lost the plot here !

Granted - Mark Sullivan may be a nice guy to talk to - but what he represents as a "professional" has ALWAYS been a contentious issue among Africas PH's

We as African PH's and Outfitters are basically pissed off with Sullivan because of his total DISRESPECT for one of the oldest hunting professions in the world !

His lack of respect shown towards Africa, our profession, and the humane killing of our game animals in the way he hunts, and what he represents is questionable at the best of times

Hunting is a noble sport, and should be treated that way, not sensationalised for the sake of an overgrown ego or selling movies !

We have enough problems within the african hunting industry, caused by some of our own dodgy PH's and Outfitters, that we do not need anymore cowboys adding fat to the fire !

What amazes me is howcome Sullivan seems to have more charges than some of Africas top senior DG PH's - such as Harry Selby, Robin Hurt, Nicky Blunt and others put together over their life time.

You seldom hear of these gentlemen sensationalising or bragging about their encounters with dangerous game. Thats probably why they are respected as true professionals by their peers.

One always shows more empathy towards things that are closer to home - and if you are not born and raised in Africa, then personally I think one lacks that special connection that binds you to its animals and the outdoors - so it is therefore maybe easier to be less emotionable in your hunting methods by this lack of empathy !

I wonder what the reaction would be if an African PH came to the US and decided to practice the same tactics as Mark Sullivan has done in Africa, on North Americas prime dangerous game animal the Grizzly Bear !!???

I am sure all kinds of hell will be raised - and his head will roll pretty quickly !

Maybe because of this, Sullivan decided to try his luck in Africa - and once again Africa sits with the bad rap !

“Granted - Mark Sullivan may be a nice guy to talk to - but what he represents as a "professional" has ALWAYS been a contentious issue among Africa’s PH's.

We as African PH's and Outfitters are basically pissed off with Sullivan because of his total DISRESPECT for one of the oldest hunting professions in the world!

Hunting is a noble sport, and should be treated that way, not sensationalized for the sake of an overgrown ego or selling movies!


Mark,

***Thank you for being the first, to my knowledge, to step forward and present how this came about and why this is occurring. I for one suspected as much and I appreciate you’re being candid.

The philosophy of "Fair Chase" is the pursuit of game in an ethical, sportsmanlike and lawful manner and, in such a way that the hunter has an opportunity to take mature trophies in a method that does not have an unfair, or improper advantage over the animal.

We encourage our clients to adhere to the ethics of "Fair Chase" hunting, and to measure the success and enjoyment of the safari not merely by the quantity or trophy size of the animals taken, but also by the quality and the thrill of the chase…

While we do our best to offer you a unique hunting experience, as well as the pursuit of your desired trophies, it is important to be aware that the success of your safari will also depend on your physical condition and shooting ability.

Mark,
I truly would like to better understand the African PH prospective and I am not being facetious so please do not take my question as being posed disrespectfully. That is not my intention or desired effect.

I took the above excerpts from your website and assumed it was your writing. That may be an incorrect assumption and I apologize if the assumption is wrong.

Can you help me better understand how the above excerpts, presented on you website, conflict with Sullivan’s hunting methods?

We know he approaches animals to allow a charge as opposed to shooting from afar on follow-up, and tapes the encounter should it occur. Sullivan states that is his preference for his style of hunting dangerous game and he believes it is far nobler than blasting away from afar. Besides this aspect how is the experience dissimilar?

I would respectfully disagree with the conclusion offered by Saeed that the animal charges occur by doing something wrong or by accident. We know Sullivan is doing something drastically different which he openly admits and subscribes to doing.

As a side note, I do not consider myself a Sullivan defender just someone who wants to fully understand the facts surrounding how and why this action has come about and from where the so far unfounded speculation is originating.

quote:

By Saeed
I told him I would give up hunting rather than hunt with someone like Mark Sullivan.

Everything he does, and shows so proudly in his videos, stands against what I believe hunting should be.

Plus one Saeed! Right on!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
It all comes down to respect for the game you hunt; and Mark Sullivan seems to totally lack that. I spoke with at least a dozen PHs at SCI and their comments ranged from "surely seems to get stuck with clients that can't shoot very well (or at all)" to "If you are not a dead shot he will work hard to kill your game for you, whether you want him to or not" to "Look at the carcasses, they must gut shoot everything..." to "they have more charges a season than I have had in the last ten (or more)". None of them had any respect for him or his methods. The closest thing to a neutral statement was one comment that "...you must decide your own level of hunting ethics, and choose a PH based on that and your pocketbook. He just seems to attract a certain class of client...".

Rich

What exactly do you consider "respecting the game"? Is shooting a half dozen animals so you can hang it from a tree for lion or leopard bait showing respect? Or tying these animals to a stump in a river for croc bait respect?

The whole respecting the game argument makes no sense to me.

Saeed,

With all do respect, I believe you may be putting your focus and indignation on the lesser of two evils so to speak.

Mark sullivan is not the bigger problem in my opinion, and he will do no harm to our image as hunters when you compare it to the harm caused by his clients and the large numbers of like minded hunters that exist today.

If there were not so many hunters that like to be confrontational in there hunting, Sullivan could only produce videos of the animals he snuffed and paid for.

I did a bit of research trying to find where Sullivans "Harrass the wildlife until it charges" clients have gone on to. The sad news is that there is at least some evidence that they have gone on to a PH I really like as a person. I will not disclose him. Nor would I ever hunt with him. I thought about naming him, but why do it, he is trying to make a living and marketing to Sullivanettes is a way to do it. Also some of the clients post here on occassion and since there is no hope of changing these people, the only reason to disclose them would be for spite. Anyone who wants to know just needs to do there own research.

Instead I will hunt the way I want, and will not hunt or book with those PHs who are deciples of Mark Sullivan. I suggest you consider not wasting anymore of your time on this. I am not going to. I am going to work on getting in shape for my next safari and practicing my off hand shooting at 100 yard when winded. The Biathlon approach to hunting.

Good luck,

SG

This has turned into a really interesting diatribe, with battle lines being drawn and sabre's being rattled.

I have not read all of the comment's that have been made, but from what I have there seems to actually be only a few real tangible ides that people are seeming to overlook.

I am sure someone will correct me or tell me where I am off track, but here goes.

1. SCI, for whatever its reasons has cut all ties with Mark Sullivan and not giving any explanation or at least a satisfactory one, for some people at least for such actions.

2. Some folks on here seem to have a real problem with all most anything SCI does.

3. Mark Sullivan evidently gave an explanation, from HIS perspective of what took place.

4. Many folks on here have a Real Problem with Mark Sullivan on many levels.

5. Mark Sullivan has been successful in his endeavours, no matter how questionable.

6. No one that has hunted with Mark Sullivan has come forth to defend his honor or expose him for the possible Questionable practices he uses.

7. Everyone on this site has their own concept of what "Fair Chase" is and is not.

8. For whatever reason, Mark Sullivan does seem to have a disproportionate number of charges by DG when compared to the average PH. There has to be a reason for that.

9. From what I have seen over the years of attending the DSC show, videos of clients making DRT one shot kills do not sell as well as dropping a wounded Dugga Boy at 3 yards.

Non of us will probably ever know the REAL story.

Maybe SCI has decided to change their attitude toward some of the practices they have turned a blind eye toward in the past.

Maybe SCI tried to persuade Mark Sullivan that if he wanted to stay in "Good Standing", he was going to come across with larger contributions, and he balked.

I am sure no one will buy into this, but in my experience, in matters like this, the real truth lies somewhere in the "Grey Area" in the middle, with both sides being at fault on various levels.

I think all this subject is doing is getting people to polarize on the subject, instead of looking at the whole thing as a "Black Eye" to the whole business of PH's, hunting DG, and the SCI.

Just My Opinion.

Guys,

maybe you are too serious about all this. I remeber walking up to my German Shorthair on point and annouced to my hunting party "I am going to let Mr. Quail decide how he wants to die.." Everyone lost it an I missed the bird...

Poetic.

Jeff

Shawn - In response to your previous thread.

Thanks for taking the time to visit my web site - I am in deed the writer of my own web information - and am prepared to stand or fall for what I have written or respresent !

In all honesty, and with due respect to you, I am not prepared to, or have the time to get into a dissing match with AR members on what I have said, or written ( here or else where) on how things are interepreted by different people.

The bottom line here is - that Mark Sullivan has done enough damage to the African Hunting industry over the years by his questionable methods - if this was not the case then he would not have generated SO MANY negative comments and observations over the years !

For two of the top hunting shows in the USA (Dallas and SCI) to have banned him, must have some merits.

Bear in mind that condemnation for his lack of professionalism and hunting methods has been going on for a long time from all quarters of the safari industry !

I don't profess to be perfect - and readily admit, that I too have at times (to get the trophy in the salt)bent the rules - however I can honestly say that I have NEVER encouraged a client to purposely wound an animal to get it to charge - or shot at a clients animal without first discussing the rules of engagement with him/her prior to opening fire !!

Us African PH's and Outfitters have NO problem with Sullivan being successfull in what he does - nor do we harbour any petty jealousy towards him - there are MANY PH's / Outfitters who go about their business in a more successfull manner to him - without resorting to sensationalism, bravado or egotism in getting the job done !

We are merely questioning his methods and lack of respect for the profession, and african hunting as a whole !

Agreed - there are still a fair amount of Outfitters and PH's who have done worst things than Sullivan - and are still alowed to exhibit at the big shows - however it is only a matter of time before they are too exposed for what they are !

In closing - this horse has now been flogged to death and we can go about in ever decreasing circles, and eventually disappear up our own orifices analysing this before a mutual agreement is reached on the subject.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark DeWet:
Shawn - In response to your previous thread.

Thanks for taking the time to visit my web site - I am in deed the writer of my own web information - and am prepared to stand or fall for what I have written or respresent !

In all honesty, and with due respect to you, I am not prepared to, or have the time to get into a dissing match with AR members on what I have said, or written ( here or else where) on how things are interepreted by different people.

The bottom line here is - that Mark Sullivan has done enough damage to the African Hunting industry over the years by his questionable methods - if this was not the case then he would not have generated SO MANY negative comments and observations over the years !

For two of the top hunting shows in the USA (Dallas and SCI) to have banned him, must have some merits.

Bear in mind that condemnation for his lack of professionalism and hunting methods has been going on for a long time from all quarters of the safari industry !

I don't profess to be perfect - and readily admit, that I too have at times (to get the trophy in the salt)bent the rules - however I can honestly say that I have NEVER encouraged a client to purposely wound an animal to get it to charge - or shot at a clients animal without first discussing the rules of engagement with him/her prior to opening fire !!

Us African PH's and Outfitters have NO problem with Sullivan being successfull in what he does - nor do we harbour any petty jealousy towards him - there are MANY PH's / Outfitters who go about their business in a more successfull manner to him - without resorting to sensationalism, bravado or egotism in getting the job done !

We are merely questioning his methods and lack of respect for the profession, and african hunting as a whole !

Agreed - there are still a fair amount of Outfitters and PH's who have done worst things than Sullivan - and are still alowed to exhibit at the big shows - however it is only a matter of time before they are too exposed for what they are !

In closing - this horse has now been flogged to death and we can go about in ever decreasing circles, and eventually disappear up our own orifices analysing this before a mutual agreement is reached on the subject.

Mark,
I sent you a PM. I hope you have an opportunity to review. Thanks.
Respectfully,
Shawn

So there is the most public description and explanation, in my opinion, that I suspect will ever see the light of day. If I have interpreted the posts correctly it explains where the complaint to SCI originated. This boils down to some African PHs that came together and applied political pressure to SCI to complain about how Sullivan gets charged so much and shared the unsubstantiated facts on which SCI then took action.

What I find interesting is the whole bend of the unethical suffering and wounding component being used to justify the SCI action. When you distill all of the other comments and distractions there is really no other issue of significance other than the unsubstantiated implication of intentional wounding. The personal comments of tapes being either too theatrical or melodramatic at times is not significant as it applies to the SCI action.

Since the initial intentional wounding is still unsubstantiated to my knowledge, the hype is all about taking a few seconds to set-up up an approach that might allow a charge by encroaching on the animals personal space and not killing him more expeditiously from afar at that time.

This is being presented as unethical as opposed to eating a sandwich or smoking a cigarette for 20–30 minutes after the initial volley and then shooting the animal when you later find it alive and then shoot if from forty or 50 yards.

Intelligent minds are supposed to ignore the 20-30 minutes of time elapsed but focus on the few seconds of wasted time from seeing the wounded animal at 50 yards on follow-up until walking closer and shooting. I guess the justification for this would be "well waiting for 20-30 minutes is more ethical because that's how we have always done it before." Somehow that is supposed to and does make sense to some. I think the ethical comparison of either method is moot. It does not to my way of thinking justify what still has been presented as an unsubstantiated claim of intentionally wounding of game from the start and the ensuing SCI action.

I still believe SCI owes Sullivan a clear factual and substantiated reason for their action. If it can't be provided the action is unjust in my view. I would be saying this regardless of the person or entity involved.

quote:

. No one that has hunted with Mark Sullivan has come forth to defend his honor or expose him for the possible Questionable practices he uses.

This has yet to surface and until it does it's still a guessing game and I'm guessing that Mark will sell-out his hunts again this year with or without SCI...

I talked to him and he is booked up for 2010 and much of 2011.

Not at all surprised.

JW

My concern regarding this topic is based upon my personal interaction with Mark Sullivan as well as my professional dealings with Nitro Express Safaris. [/QUOTE]


...appreciate your point of view, but was wondering whether you are shawn s...

There is a difference between the entertainment that others have provided (like Capstick) and what Mark Sullivan does.

Animals aren't wounded on purpose for the sake of entertainment.

A disgrace to anyone who respects and loves hunting.

Nuff said.

My impression is the truth is going to come out, despite all the NDA Mark has everyone involved with sign.

And that is not going to be very pleasant for any of us. As anything that reflects so badly on hunting in general, does not do our sport much good, regardless of who the culprit is.

All it takes is one bad apple to spoil the barrel.

Saeed, do you have any thoughts as to how to go about getting adrenalin junkies, i.e., the type of folks that book with Sullivan and others like him, to understand that the type of hunting these PH's/Guides are promoting are not in the best interest of the future of hunting in Africa or world wide?

The English have a very good saying "Some mother's do have them"

That is the best description I would give those who choose to hunt with Mark Sullivan.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
All it takes is one bad apple to spoil the barrel.

Saeed, do you have any thoughts as to how to go about getting adrenalin junkies, i.e., the type of folks that book with Sullivan and others like him, to understand that the type of hunting these PH's/Guides are promoting are not in the best interest of the future of hunting in Africa or world wide?

The English have a very good saying "Some mother's do have them"

That is the best description I would give those who choose to hunt with Mark Sullivan.

The English have an old saying.

"Some mother's do have them"

Those are the ones who choose to hunt with Mark Sullivan.

Saeed was spot on a couple of posts back!

When I started hunting buffalo it was on a government 'buffalo erradication programme' in western Zim. General procedure was that a stop line was formed of sundry assembled farmers and government officers and a heard of buffalo was driven onto us with a helicopter. Some of the herd would go round the stop line, some turn back and occasionally when the herd was too big, the herd simply over ran the line of shooters. All sorts of rifles were used. One clown used a .22 hornit but most used .303's or 7,62 Nato. Not everybody was a good shot Sooo the government officers from vet, tsetse and parks got the pleasure of following up all the wounded animals that had escaped.

I faced a total of 6 buffalo charges that year (1984). I have faced two since (one at night and another the next morning by two problem buffalo in a tribal area and not hunting with clients). Reason? I learned about hunting buffalo and more importantly about following up buff! If you wish to get charged...it is easy enough to do so! I have often had clients wound animals (unfortunately) but part of the art of being a good PH is (IMHO) is to get your client to shoot his animals. That means finding the wounded animal and putting the client in possition for another shot- not getting charged! If you get charged often enough, sooner or later you will fail to stop a charge - particularly with buff or hippo.

cynically, having seen the way far too many clients shoot, it would be easy enough to get charged half a dozen times a season without having to 'deliberatly' wound the game.

Also, doing a fair number of walk and stalk lion hunts, I know what effect 'surviving a charge' produces. Quite often one (or more) of the lionesses will put in a really spectacular mock charge when you shoot the male - stare her down, shout at her to P off and the tip just went up a grand...If the charge was 'of your own making' due to 'your poor shooting in the first place'...especially if you didn't realise the follow up was being conduct so as to provoke a charge a) would you go and talk about your lousy shooting and b) condem the PH who 'saved' your ass?

quote:

If you wish to get charged...it is easy enough to do so! I have often had clients wound animals (unfortunately) but part of the art of being a good PH is (IMHO) is to get your client to shoot his animals.

Well said Ganyana!

Ganyana, just out of genuine curiosity on my part: When hunting DG, what percentage of your clients have made clean one-shot kills and what's the avg distance per shot? I assume you have a safety zone which you dont allow your clients to cross because of the danger to them, your trackers and yourself?... Thank you

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Saeed was spot on a couple of posts back!

When I started hunting buffalo it was on a government 'buffalo erradication programme' in western Zim. General procedure was that a stop line was formed of sundry assembled farmers and government officers and a heard of buffalo was driven onto us with a helicopter. Some of the herd would go round the stop line, some turn back and occasionally when the herd was too big, the herd simply over ran the line of shooters. All sorts of rifles were used. One clown used a .22 hornit but most used .303's or 7,62 Nato. Not everybody was a good shot Sooo the government officers from vet, tsetse and parks got the pleasure of following up all the wounded animals that had escaped.

I faced a total of 6 buffalo charges that year (1984). I have faced two since (one at night and another the next morning by two problem buffalo in a tribal area and not hunting with clients). Reason? I learned about hunting buffalo and more importantly about following up buff! If you wish to get charged...it is easy enough to do so! I have often had clients wound animals (unfortunately) but part of the art of being a good PH is (IMHO) is to get your client to shoot his animals. That means finding the wounded animal and putting the client in possition for another shot- not getting charged! If you get charged often enough, sooner or later you will fail to stop a charge - particularly with buff or hippo.

cynically, having seen the way far too many clients shoot, it would be easy enough to get charged half a dozen times a season without having to 'deliberatly' wound the game.

Also, doing a fair number of walk and stalk lion hunts, I know what effect 'surviving a charge' produces. Quite often one (or more) of the lionesses will put in a really spectacular mock charge when you shoot the male - stare her down, shout at her to P off and the tip just went up a grand...If the charge was 'of your own making' due to 'your poor shooting in the first place'...especially if you didn't realise the follow up was being conduct so as to provoke a charge a) would you go and talk about your lousy shooting and b) condem the PH who 'saved' your ass?

Euro...Average distance for which species? Elephant? 15-20m I don'tlike letting ele get closer than 10m (Will will probably climb in and say that it is so because I use a 9,3 not a real 'stopping rifle'...perhaps but that is what I am comfortable with). At such distances getting a good shot in isn't dificult even for the most 'average' shooter! The problem is with a nervous client and the trick there is to hunt a decent area so you can do several mock approaches and get him used to being so close to such a big animal.

Buffalo? Bush type often dictates the shooting range and shots of up to 100m are common enough - this is where things often go wrong- even if the client is a relatively good shot they use a scope with too much magnification (and get uck fever) are unused to shooting from sticks or are too out of shape to shoot well after a long stalk...2004 was my worst year - 50% of shots made on buff resulted in a wounded animal requiring a tence follow up.

Lion? from a blind- 40m. Walk and stalk lion. 20-30m

Don't do leopard..but a blind is usually 60-90m from the bait. With hounds? 60m to 6".

Hippo on land...well the range has got further since I gave up on streamlight and got a surefire

Sullivan puts out a video on Elephant most every year. My friend the PH said it had more charges and Sullivan dropping more wounded Elephants than his last ten seasons combined. I spoke with him at SCI Reno, and asked if he would post his position here. His reply basically was "...Jeez, everybody in the industry knows what a fucking asshole he is, if you can't figure that out from watching one of his videos; then you should book a hunt with him.". "And no, you can't use my name, I don't need all eleven or twelve of his friends throwing shit at me.". If you speak with any PH outfit at DSC or Reno about him in 2011 you can gather all the opinions you need.

If you haven't figured out what an ass he is from seeing even one of his videos, then you should book with him. Come back and give us a detailed rundown on what DG you hunted, how many you killed with one shot, how many took more than one shot, and how many Mark shot/killed with/for you. You should be able to do that, however, from the safety of your recliner in front of the TV with a notepad and the pause button for less than three hundred dollars worth of video purchases from the Great One.

One more thing, I haven't ever had to have been "buggered" by some guy to make the decision I do not care to have any sort of homosexual relationship. So, now you can put me down for another "haven't had any personal experience, but I do not approve anyway..." decision in my life.

Rich

Thank you sir...good stuff..

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Euro...Average distance for which species? Elephant? 15-20m I don'tlike letting ele get closer than 10m (Will will probably climb in and say that it is so because I use a 9,3 not a real 'stopping rifle'...perhaps but that is what I am comfortable with). At such distances getting a good shot in isn't dificult even for the most 'average' shooter! The problem is with a nervous client and the trick there is to hunt a decent area so you can do several mock approaches and get him used to being so close to such a big animal.

Buffalo? Bush type often dictates the shooting range and shots of up to 100m are common enough - this is where things often go wrong- even if the client is a relatively good shot they use a scope with too much magnification (and get uck fever) are unused to shooting from sticks or are too out of shape to shoot well after a long stalk...2004 was my worst year - 50% of shots made on buff resulted in a wounded animal requiring a tence follow up.

Lion? from a blind- 40m. Walk and stalk lion. 20-30m

Don't do leopard..but a blind is usually 60-90m from the bait. With hounds? 60m to 6".

Hippo on land...well the range has got further since I gave up on streamlight and got a surefire

quote:

Sullivan puts out a video on Elephant most every year. My friend the PH said it had more charges and Sullivan dropping more wounded Elephants than his last ten seasons combined. I spoke with him at SCI Reno, and asked if he would post his position here. His reply basically was "...Jeez, everybody in the industry knows what a fucking asshole he is, if you can't figure that out from watching one of his videos; then you should book a hunt with him.". "And no, you can't use my name, I don't need all eleven or twelve of his friends throwing shit at me.". If you speak with any PH outfit at DSC or Reno about him in 2011 you can gather all the opinions you need.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. You have a PH at a show anonymously complaining about Sullivan and his "elephant charges". Sullivan hasn't mentioned any elephant charges in his videos or his books. If he really had been charged by an elephant(s) I suspect that it would make for great video. I don't think they happened.

Instead of asking other people about Mark and "what an asshole he is" why don't you speak to the man himself and form your own opinion?

I don't think there is a subject that cause more controversy here than Mark Sullivan.

I am not for or against him. I basically don't care one way or another. I personally don't think I want to hunt with him because he is too quick on the trigger for me.

I question some of these reports of his activities. While entirely possible, there seems to be no hard evidence of these allegations. I can't imagine some of these allegations actually occurring without him getting into serious shit in Tanzania.

It is clear that he has a hell of a lot of charges. There could be many reasons for that other than some of the actions typically alleged against him. If the client wounds a buff, even seriously, and they walk straight to the buff they are begging for trouble. I have killed 33 buff. I can think of 3 that I hit hard and ran less than 50 yards and stood there waiting and looking even though they were mortally wounded. Had I chose to go up to them straight away, I would have been inviting a charge. I chose to shoot them from the first place I could get into a good second shot. Maybe that makes me a chickenshit. If so, I am guilty as charged.

I think that MS chooses a different approach in similar situations and violates the buff's personal space intentionally. Thus he gets the charges. This bring up my second issue with MS. Often times on camera, they approach the wounded buff. Rather than shooting the buff straight away, they stand there letting the buff suffer while trying to provoke a charge. While I can completely understand going straight to the buff, I have a problem with them standing around trying to provoke a charge and letting the buff suffer needlessly. They should finish it ASAP. He often doesn't do that. This is the second reason I don't want to go with him.

I would really like to hear from someone that has been with him. However, as often as he is discussed on AR, no one has come forward with first hand experience. I find that in and of itself interesting.

RX,

I think the current POTUS is an asshole too, but I don't plan on taking the time to go to the white house just to confirm it.

Rich

There used to be a member of AR who had hunted with MS - Alan Day. He quit posting here.

I spoke to Alan on the phone several times 7-8 years ago and he was very supportive of Sullivan.

I also know MS but not as a PH, so I can't comment on his hunting techniques.