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I have hunted with a game scout who told us he hunted with Mark Sullivan. And that he did intentionally wound the animals before approaching them to video the charges. In one camp we were told how he booked to hunt on someone concession, and when he left they found over 20 dead buffalo. Apparently they went into thick bush where Sullivan did not have the balls to follow them. This apparently caused a fistfight between Sullivan and the concession holder. I have hunted with several PHs who have a combined experience of over 100 years, and they all agree Sullivan does something no PH would ever dream of doing. He is the ultimate unprofessional hunter currently operating in Africa. I have seen enough of his videos to know what he does is not what any decent hunter would do. If one hunts enough, one would wound animals. But, to go as far as to wound them on purpose to get a charge, is not what I would call the behaviour of a real PH. It takes a special sort of client to pay him to do this, and I am certainly not one of them. I prefer to shoot and kill my own animals. And the least involved my PH gets into the action the better it is. | |||
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[ Rich[/QUOTE] Yes, several. And there are probably many more that simply are never included in his videos (lacking, one supposes, 'blood-on-the-boots'). However, Sullivan does manage to provoke more than his share of DG charges for the camera, which is simply explained by the fact that in many cases (though not all) neither he nor his clients fire back-up shots as they approach their wounded animal. Watch his videos and you'll see: His client fires - and Sullivan fires almost simultaneously - after which they both begin to track 'their' buffalo. Now, when a wounded animal is eventually sighted, most of us immediately take additional shots to kill it quickly and humanely. My guess is that most buffalo are killed by follow-on rounds taken at a distance after the first shots are fired. This is where Sullivan is different - he and his client approach the wounded animal until they are close enough to where the buffalo perceives the closing threat and charges - probably around 10-15 meters. They also approach the buff 'face on' and not from behind or from the flank. Mind you, Sullivan is not deliberately wounding anything; it is just that after the initial volley, Sullivan hopes that the wounded buff has the fortitude to up and charge as he approaches. It is then that he fires the ultimately lethal shots that have made him (in)famous. Granted it's not the way most of us choose to hunt; but then, if SCI is going to be the arbiter of how dangerous game ought to be hunted, that opens up an industrially-sized can of 'ethics' worms. What about canned lion hunting? Or electronic animal calls? Or laser-optics with automated bullet-drop compensators? Is SCI going to legislate these issues for the rest of us? It's their show, of course, but many of us support its existence. A degree of transparency in non-profits is a good thing, and unless this has privacy issues associated with it (e.g., failure to pay fees, etc.), SCI's decision on this ought to be out in the open for all of us to see and discuss.[/QUOTE] Gentlemen - I have not even got past page one of this thread and yet Kim has again provided a reasoned and reasonable angle to the big story. I would concur largely with his post - and especially when there are many big name Tanz PH's/Outfitters who regularly shoot buffalo from the car. Sullivan at least deserves a hearing. I wonder who he pissed off? And Out of Africa are still allowed there??? something is rotten in the state of - "SCI" | |||
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Rich, I have seen several of the dvds and I agree with you that the vast majority of them are mostly the charges and then the shooting of the animal by the client then Mark Sullivan (and sometimes in the reverse order). But I do know that his client Kelly Gill has shot many elephant and buffalo with his .577 double on his own on the Sullivan dvds, and also with Buzz Charlton in his dvds. I'm not 100% sure, but I don't recall ever seeing Kelly charged. I would think that the Sullivan announcement would be in the Safari Times where these things are normally published but I don't recall seeing that. Maybe it will be in an issue to come. Happy holidays to all. Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | |||
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Mac, You've go to admit that MS has an enviable business model: The client pays huge fees so that Sullivan can shoot their trophies! Great work if you can get it. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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+1  nothin sweeter than the smell of fresh blood on your hunting boots | |||
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I concur. I think that it is fair to say that there are plenty of rumors out there about Mark Sullivan's activities. But, I have yet to see any facts that substantiate the rumored activities. All I have seen is as posted above, a secondhand account of somewhat dubious orgins. Nobody has for the record put their name on any defacto affidavit, or otherwise - just the usual grumblings and the spot-judgements. A prime example of this is the account of the 20 Buffalo being found deal after MS was on the concession and the allegations that he was respponsible for this. Wouldn't there have been legal action taken if in fact this were the case? I don't see much legitimacy to that story. Mark is for better or worse, an icon in certain circles (not mine by the way). With that status comes a fair amount of envy and suspicion. Videos being what they are, of late, no proof on any factual basis has surfaced that Sullivan is acting in the unethical manner for which he is so openly accused. He is being condemnd by those willing to trust apparent heresay. That mindset my friends is a component of Draconian law for which there should be no place in the minds of ethical men. | |||
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I personally would like to see more videos of up close in your face charges from wounded lion and leopard (preferably thick bush) from Mark's videos. These encounters would probably occur just as frequently one would expect as any other of the other big five hunted given he follows the same protocol with all his hunts. He certainly does deserve an explanation though for his expulsion, but it is most likely to boil down to ethics and/or money. | |||
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It sounds as if Mark pissed off some one high up in SCI. SCI and the ethics committee put a screwing to me twice about 15 years ago because of who the complaint was against. The bad thing was all of the mediators sided with me but refused to do anything. I would guess Mark will never know the truth if anything. James | |||
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Does anyone know if Mark will be attending the Dallas Convention? | |||
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I've seen one. Sullivan guided an older client who didn't seem to be moving that well. got in close to an old dagga boy. Client killed him no charge, actually he was very polite and professional. Oh by the way, the Sullivan involved was the younger one, Mark's son.  Caleb | |||
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Sullivan deserves an answer from SCI as to the reason for his expulsion, as well as a hearing before the Ethics Committee - presuming they are the ones who initiated this action - as required by the SCI rules. Although I am no fan of MS, I am a past president and board member of a large SCI chapter and have attended the BoD meetings in D.C. Let no one doubt that SCI is very political and that it is run by good ole boy millionaires who essentially control the organization BoD. I formally applied to serve as a member of the Ethics Committee but never received an answer. Since I am not a millionaire myself (far from it) perhaps that was the reason (I was otherwise eminently qualified). Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Jeff the rumours have been driven from this site and have spread from there. That is exacactly why no one can ever substantiate any of the allegations. As was said before, Saeeds own convictions on the subject and the fact that his owning the site combined with his African expreince have given him credibility which he may have abused to drive an agenda. Having watched Saeeds own hunting videos I think him to be one of the least ethical hunters I have ever seen, more of a sniper really than a hunter. But that is just my opinion. The fact of the matter is that both Saeed and Mark, despite their individual vices are both responsible for bringing people to Africa in their own way. Mark however gets my vote, he has only ever been kind and giving in any dealings we have had and he is 100% correct that his films have contributed more to bringing hunters to Africa than any others. He wrote the book that everyone else has copied to bring us the hunting networks/productions today. It has all been watered down and PC'd but its all due to him and to a lesser extent PHC and sportsmen on Film. When Saeed can provide us with even 1 client who can support his attack I will listen to him, but in the meanwhile I really just wish he would give it up for a while as he only ever seems to repeat the same baseless accusations and in so doing just makes us all think less of him. Anyway, I think that Sullivan has been sacrificed for the sake of SCI preserving their name in some way, but I dare say this is going to backfire the same way the Namibians PR stunt did. This guy wont go down without a fight and he has a hell of a following. | |||
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I don't imagine that he will be at DSC because he is scheduled to be at the International Sportmans Expo in Denver that weekend. That is how I found out about the whole thing. | |||
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I couldn't care less about MS or SCI for that matter. 465H&H | |||
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Do you guys really think the buffalo gives as damm if some one is killin him faster or a couple of mints later?If the buffalo can think,wht ever tots that went through its head during those few secs before a clean kill would be the same as what would have been going through in case of a shot in the lung(well with a bunch of buffalo expletives  )Personally if some one tried to kill me ,I would like nothing better than having a go at him before I die.Even if it means being in pain for a while.Why would the buffalo be any different,I think among all the big 5 the buffalo for sure thinks this way lol.. | |||
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I think the video craze is promoting the risk taking to provoke charges. I just watched a DVD I have involving a highly regarded PH hunting elephant. I think the elephants are pushed too hard to create good cinema and I saw a lot of shooting by PHs. Other than the cornball dialogue MS inserts I don't see much difference ethically. Lets face it the charge aspect is what sells DVDs. I wonder if these elephant would have been stalked to within feet if there was no camera rolling. I met two gentlemen from Oregon who hunted with MS twice and said he was a great PH and did not fire a shot. Of course there was no camera rolling either. | |||
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If I was paying for the hunt they would be. A proper elephant hunt is done up close and personal; for me, it would be shameful to take a heart/lung crack at an elephant at 75 yards. When you watch DVDs, remember it may say as much about how the client wants the hunt to be conducted as it says about the PH. Mike | |||
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Hey Marc! Putting the whole MS and Craig Boddington thing aside, it seems that the "egotistical hunting personalities" quote struck a nerve with you .....am I correct Bwana Mojo??
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To be frank ,if I had the skill and the courage I would definitely do the same,walk right upto the animal and give it a chance to charge and shot it a few feet away from me .But then maybe once or twice ,more than tht bad for my nerves lol.. Now tell me which Dg hunter hasnt dreamt about an elephant or a buffalo charging at him and shot it a few feet away..Some are lucky enough to get in every day and some never lol.BTW I was watching a small clip of one of Ivan Carter's client shot a buff in a charge ,the man was steady and as cool as any of the best around,name was nelson somthing not sure,is he a member here? excuse my spellin got just 1 hand to use for another month or so. | |||
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I'm not sure the videos themselves are promoting risk so much as they are simply feeding a latent desire to reintroduce a modicum of risk that has historically been a fundamental element of dangerous game hunting. Come on, most of us will admit to having imagined how well we would react to a charging buffalo - and Sullivan delivers plenty of that in his DVDs. Honestly, there is very real appeal to me in a purest approach that includes double rifles and hunting dangerous game 'up-close' - and not sniping from the safety of a remote hillside. Obviously this is a subject that is very much a matter of personal choice. That said, I feel that by pushing the limits on how far away you shoot dangerous game, you eliminate what should be an intrinsic element of the experience: Risk. Risk is a part of the tradition and history of safari hunting, and the reason that I've chosen to hunt buffalo with a double rifle rather than a scoped bolt-action. By obligating myself to getting closer to a cape buffalo or elephant, I reduce the number of trophy opportunities and incur a measure of risk that serves as partial payment for the privilege of hunting dangerous game. On his videos, Sullivan undoubtedly comes across as boorish, egomaniacal, patronizing, and too-fast-on-the-trigger, and for me these can make them painful to watch. On the other hand, they can also be wildly entertaining - and as Craig Boddington has said - "he handles big doubles exceptionally well". Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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That is about the most rediculous thing I have ever read on the internet. You may not like the way Saeed hunts but questioning the ethics of it is unbelievable. | |||
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Mike: I'm not saying 75 yards but I do think 10 to 15 yards is close enough for an elephant. I think the number of tuskless cows now being hunted to inside 10 yards is an invitation to disaster. It is just a matter of time till someone doesn't come home from one of these cow hunts. This is just my opinion and not a criticism of those who like to get up close. I value my live more than the adrenalin rush being near death brings. And yes, I have hunted elephants so I have been among them. | |||
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I think ya'll need to take a valium/tylenol pm, and go to bed!  Mad Dog | |||
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I had a chance to watch all, or most all of MS videos..... I did it with the sound off after the first few minuetes, and they were fine to watch then! | |||
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What we know for certain about Mark...My top 15. 1) He's an excellent shot with a double rifle, perhaps the best I've seen. 2) He has big balls and lotsa courage. 3) He has a big ego, but to hunt dangerous game the way he does, you have to pack a little ego. 4) He likes charges & I don't. 5) I like to kill stuff with one shot. He likes many bullets. 6) He's a handsome guy and a self taught success story. 7) His SCI booth is one of thee busiest constantly throughout the four days. 8) He's become a man some like to dislike. 9) He has brought a lot of notoriety to African hunting. 10)He has been a generous donor over his years. 11)His methods of hunting are not endorsed by this hunter and he relishes the image he has. 12)He is a friend of mine, despite the fact the NY Times chose to interview him over me a couple years ago. 13)I have purchased a lot of his stuff and thought about doing a DVD with him several years ago called "Marc and Mark", but we couldn't figure out who'd get to do most of the talking and shooting on the video. He wanted to call it a movie. I told him movies are for actors. 14) He's a bad actor 15)I've heard all the allegations from game scouts and PH's that everyone else has, but as of this moment they are all hearsay. | |||
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I want to make something very clear from my post on page 1. I was NOT referring to CB when I said egotistical hunting personalities. He has always been congenial at the shows. As a matter of fact, he has been a damn shade more congenial than I would be after listening to all the BS that comes with working a booth. I worked the booth deal for about 5 years and you will hear more ridiculous crap and world records shot than any sane man should be required to hear. My hats off to guys like CB and Buzz as they are two that always seem to be ready to talk. With all due respect to Saeed, if you ask a game scout if there is a dinosaur in the next valley and that's what he thinks you want to hear then there be a HUGE dinosaur in the next valley. (Thanks Jeff W for sorting out Saeeds comments.) If you notice, all the stuff said about MS is hearsay, no one has come forward to say they have seen him intentionally wound a buffalo to get footage. I've seen buffalo shot nine times with a big bore rifle, is that intentionally wounding a buff with the first shot???. How in the hell do you intentionally wound a buffalo???? 20 buff carcasses?? what did MS use, a .577 Nitro auto on a helicopter?? Admit it guys, who would like for one time in our overly protected lives to shoot a charging buffalo at 10 steps?? | |||
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Marc: Nicely done and very clever! And 50% more than your average Top 10 - that's value added, just like with your videos. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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Wow Mark Sullivan is a real lightning rod. Before I had ANY experience in Africa I watched all of his videos. They ARE exciting and really made me WANT to get on a Plane and go to Africa, not with him, he seemed a little on edge and obviously full of himself but man did you get bang for your buck with his videos. It wasn't until later that I realized he MAY have provoked most if not all of the charges and he surely shot more than the client. Ethics...well ethics are different for most of us, but really everyone deserves an explanation or hearing for any dispute. We may not agree with his methods but in many ways he has contributed a lot to our sport...so I think it is only fair for Mark to have his "day in court" IMHO....Happy New Year to you all. | |||
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With the right PH beside me, you bet! Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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How much of his videos are actually what happen second to second? Any chance that they could be edited to enhance danger? Jim | |||
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Thanks Kim. Given that it's MS, I thought he deserved an extra five! | |||
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Well said. I'd have to agree on all of them, except #13 (have not considered doing a "movie" with him personally ). On that, makes me chuckle...he's the PH and you had to discuss who'd do the most shooting.  Probably would have preferred "Mark and Marc" too. lolOn #15, for clarification...you heard the same allegations from actual game scouts and PH's? Do you think that they read them here first? LOL | |||
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I agree totally with Saeed. If you can read his book with puking--I don't know how. Watch the videos and see how many of the buffs. are broken down in the hind quarters. Shot there to slow them down. The video that was made to be covered up at SCI was because it was right at the entrance door and was being watched by some antis. My PH of many years takes great pride in how close we can get and no charges are the rules of the game. His comment is I will not let the buff. kill you but he is yours to kill. Isn't that what we go for. Not to have some ass kill for you. Do we have anybodys word that SCI didn't have communications with except him. I don't have any great love for SCI but this has been discussed on the floor for years and I suspect that only his large $ contributions that he openly braggs about is the only thing that has kept him going to Reno for this. AS for me --I won't miss the guy. | |||
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I know a gentleman of impeccable integrity who sadly I hear is in bad health and no longer posts here and hunted with Sullivan on several safaris. According to him Sullivan is a very conciencious, affable and competent PH who freely admitted to him his movies were designed to make money and the clients involved were all aware and cooperated. Whetehr we like or agree with his style is irrelevant. Even the accused at Nuremberg received a detailed explanation as to why they were going to be executed. Sullivan deserves the same from SCI. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I'm very sorry to hear this. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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Vlam, Jeff Wemmer, Buzz C., Karl Stumpfe and Sable Trail and at least a few more have to have their posts respected as those posts are totally logical. I've spoken to M S on the phone twice and he was excellent to converse with, EXCELLENT! Given the $$$ I'd book with him. Tanz. is big bucks though, as we all know. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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I agree entirely ALF. Well said. I will differ slightly on one small point (not one you made, but one that is inferred in your post and made explicitly by others above). I think its very fair to have an opinion of Mark Sullivan the person entirely based on watching his videos, reading his book or reading his website. He is representing himself in all those media...not playing a fictional role in a "movie". | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Mark Sullivan won't be at SCI 2010
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