The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Mark Sullivan won't be at SCI 2010Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Having recently shared a camp with Craig...yes, he is a Gentleman! He didn't get what he came for and yet was still a pleasure to be with on the last day!! SCI and 'ethics' are seldom found in the same sentance...however, there is a fresh wind blowing in SCI and John B&^%$ (never could pronounce his name) as the outfitters liason man is a genuinely good bloke and there are others moving in. Perhaps they are getting there. It will take time and will need members to actually vote for ethical folk at the top etc.... BTW when SCI told Rowland Ward they no longer had a booth available there was NO explanation. So that at least seems to be standard SCI practice. | |||
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Whether or not you like him or his business, the man still deserves an answer from SCI.. | |||
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Although I am a life memeber of SCI I joined so I can get a find out more about the world of hunting. I don't think SCI is the be all and end all of hunting organisations. They have there share of dirty laundry and thats common knowledge. If they are trying to take the moral ground its a bit late. Like him or hate him Sullivan has paid his dues and SCI needs to come clean with it reasons. Me..I loved his videos when they came out and stirred me to go to africa,I may never have hunted in this way but it does get the blood running | |||
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Colourful opinions aside, SCI have an obligation to offer justifying reasons for expulsion to Mark Sullivan. Must be quite a handful of legal experts on AR - what say ye? | |||
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"No point going legal"  | |||
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I find it very ammusing that many have stated he should have been expelled years ago and when SCI does that very thing, then SCI is called into question, hum. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. | |||
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Questions: Does anyone know who controls SCI? Are there a "board of directors" who wheel the power? Or a few businessmen pulling the strings behind the curtain? Whoever it may be, are they members of AR? dale | |||
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Yes, there is censorship of the material being played at the shows. | |||
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I can think of outfits that do deserve banning. Did SCI ever ban OoA? After all, OoA was illegally operating in Zims. ~Ann   | |||
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Mark Sullivan should be told why he cannot have a booth. SCI should act like any other business/org and explain why it does not want to do business with someone. We should all be together as hunters, way to many anti's to worry about. We need to stop snipeing at one another over hunting ethics. BigB | |||
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Interesting the different perspectives on hunting "ethics". We have folks commenting on this thread that hunt the quotas on other people's licenses that apparently view that practice as ethical, yet want to call into question the ethics of others. Also interesting that we (hunters) take great umbrage when non-hunters call into question our morals and ethics for hunting in the first place, yet we are perfectly comfortable making moral and ethical judgments of fellow hunters when the hunt does not meet our definition of "fair chase". Mike | |||
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OH, Mike! | |||
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As a more or less outside observer, with no dog in this hunt, it seems to me that the reason MS gets charged so much is because he gets very close before administering the final coup-de-grace. Doesn’t that make sense? The number of reports about the amount of lead that a buff can absorb and still maintain its lethal nature is almost unlimited. But almost every video I’ve seen of buff kills shows the final shot(s) being taken at the down-but-not-dead buff by the client from a relatively safe distance, say … 30 or 40 yards. And every post in this forum (that I’ve read) by someone who has actually hunted with Sullivan has nothing bad to say about him. MS simply makes a closer final approach, making the buff well aware of his presence and prompting the charge. No? | |||
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Steve, I've obviously never hunted with him but from what I've seen on the very occasional video of his that I've seen, one of the major differences is more that he approaches the animal from the front so the animal sees him coming and charges. Every PH does his follow ups differently and of course, every instance is also different but I was taught to be cautious and whenever possible, to approach every downed animal from behind..... and consequently, I'd say my charge rate is relatively low when compared to those who might not be quite so cautious. I've often had to administer a coup de grace shot from very close range, sometimes even point blank range, but usually/whenever possible from behind the animal. | |||
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That's just so stupid and catty. Leave Craig out of this! He gives more of himself to kids and adults, donating more of his time to the industry than anybody. For that poster to write that, you show an ignorance for what's great about hunting. | |||
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Just to clarify--- sevenmagltd-Your question was fine--- My post is directed at the gentleman who made reference to CB...Just way off base. | |||
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This is a great post from someone who knows. I want ONE PERSON to tell me they know FOR A FACT that Mark Sullivan deliberately wounded an animal to entice a charge. I was charged on my FIRST buff hunt....not a blood on my shoes, but 18' was close enough...and yes it was a charge. It seems that Mark has a cameraman following him night and day....henceforth a higher degree of likelyhood that, given his "get close" philosophy, he would get a lot of charges on tape....sort of a bush paparazzi. Regardless....folks here seem to be PERSONALLY bashing Mark....and if you don't know him personally....why? Gary DRSS NRA Lifer SCI DSC | |||
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The man deserves an explanation. As a result of SCI's decision he could see financial losses of massive proportions as a result. I see some liability issues here since he has contributed so much to SCI over 33 years.. | |||
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Ditto's Mike, only an AR member of your occupation could have said it as well or better. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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I am certainly not a pro-Sullivan supporter. And the one time that I spoke with him, our personalities clashed. But in the essence of the free-enterprize system...I think he has every right to be at SCI. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I have on more than one occasion witnessed individuals bad mouthing high fence deer hunting. Big fair chase advocates only to watch them about pee in their pants when they see a 170+ white tail on such a managed ranch. You cannot keep their finger off the trigger! They are many hypocrits in this world and even more judges. My question would be, is the guy doing anything illegal? I have never watched any of his video's. EZ | |||
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I remember it well. MS was pissed. The videos were playing, but there was a sheet of white paper over the TV. At that time, I honestly thought the problem was the mass of people that were standing in the aisles and causing a traffic jam. Maybe it was more of a ideological issue between Sullivan and SCI. Will J. Parks, III | |||
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Only Mark can answer the question as to whether or not he has clients wound animals deliberately to produce close range charges for videos. Obviously he wouldn't say yes to that question. There is only one answer to having a high percentage of clients function that poorly though. The odds are not good for consistently getting inept clients like that. The issue for me is that you never get to see the first shot in the sequence. Reference: either of Buzz Charlton's videos. Lots of big elephants, and other DG being approached, close range too, and being shot. And killed cleanly. Some mock charges, and a few serious ones as well. No histrionics, just fast accurate shooting by clients who know what they are about. It looks to me, at least, that Sullivan kills a tremendous percentage of his clients game for them. They shoot them, he kills them. Rich | |||
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As a professional organization, SCI owes it's members an explanation, and Sullivan is a member.I would certainly think he is deserving of one. Someone else asked the question of "who's next". A real good question! Regardless of how you feel about Mark personally, this seems unfair at best. Of course there are two sides to every story, but like Tiger Woods, SCI is not interested in sharing theirs so they leave themselves open to negative comments like many posted here. Dave Fulson | |||
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I am a bit confused, I have fired clients and offered them no explination as to why I did not want to work for them. Why does SCI have to explain their reason for not wanting MS to be a participant at their show? I guess this debunkes the notion "all it takes is a hugh donation", if what MS says about the $25,000 hunt donation they refused, eh. | |||
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Before this thread, I'm not sure if I ever heard of Mark Sullivan. Can anyone explain why SCI took these steps with Mr. Sullivan? Thank You, ddj The best part of hunting and fishing was the thinking about going and the talking about it after you got back - Robert Ruark | |||
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You mean like from Australia? ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Let me make this point. My experience with the SCI Ethics Committee was actually positive. When I approached the chairman directly about the many horrors visisted upon clients by Usangu Safaris' Zahir Mulla, Abdul Mulla and Bill Fronterhouse, they moved fairly quickly and yanked them from the floor and banned them. It took a lot of work on my part in accumulating data and evidence but it was acted upon with what seemed to be no hesistation. Now the other side of the coin...Libby Grimes who was and may still be in charge of the convention proper was pissed and worked behind the scence to block the ban. Reason: Large hunt donor status of Usangu Safaris. MONEY. So there you have it. What one hand is doing may be unknown to the other. At least that is how it appeared. With regards to Mark Sullivan, it appears all the sniping about his questionable hunting style may have gotten the best of him. FWIW Jeff | |||
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Whether you agree with his style of hunting or not, he was a long term member and contributor. He deserves an answer. While SCI may be justified in kicking him out, until they convey the reason, no one knows. There are (IMHO) far too many personal attacks on him and condemnation for what he supposedly does for which no one has any evidence. If he really was intentionally wounding buffalo and there were buffalo carcasses spread all over the bush, don't you think the authorities would find out and do something? Personally, I do think they would take action. I have met 2 people that actually hunted with him and they both said good things. Do I know anything about his hunting that is factually accurate? No, I have never hunted with him. Accordingly I am not going to condemn him. However, I have seen enough on the videos to know that I don't want to hunt with him. It is bothersome that Sullivan was kicked out with no explanation and there are others who have been honored by SCI that were nothing more than common criminals. It bothersome that SCI continues to accept donations from companies that are a bit dodgy at best, OOA for example. | |||
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I feel that MS has, for the right or wrong reasons, bought alot of people to Africa. This in itself must be seen as a good thing. For SCI to ban him, regardless of an explanation or not, and to still endorse the likes of OUT OF AFRICA makes an absolute mockery of the whole system. With regards to the number of MS charges- all I can say is that despite been ultra careful after my early season experience with Luc De Runz who got run over by an ele ( luckily survived) I had another 4 charges which were all too close for comfort. It has been a bad season country wide for close calls and we hope 2010 will be better in that regards - however no one has control over these! | |||
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+1 on that statement! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Beginning to have a better understanding of the person and reasoning behind this thread. | |||
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+1 Out of Africa stays and MS goes?? that is an absolute Mockery-----maybe MS should have taken a few of the SCI big wigs on illegal hunts-poach a few lions  I hope 2010 is a better year--since I will be there with ya Buzz  nothin sweeter than the smell of fresh blood on your hunting boots | |||
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Seems we all more or less agree that Mark deserves an explanation as to his explusion from SCI / Reno show. I don't know him, nor do I plan to hunt with him. The latter for no other reason than I already have excellent relationships with several outfitters. I do have to ask this. Mark is continuously accused of purposefully wounding animals to provoke a close-quarters charge for the camera. Presumptive assertions aside, has anybody, i.e. one of Mark's clients ever come forward with a testimonial to substantiate these claims regarding MS' ethics? I ask this because it is very possible to provoke a charge from a wounded Buff if you have the cajones and stalikng skills to shoot at very close range then rush the animal immediately before he is down. It is also very easy to get a tuskless Cow elephant / Hippo to come after you at close range with no "pre-wounding" as some accuse Mark of doing. The fact that Buffalo charges are somewhat of a rairity has a lot to do with any PH understandibly wanting to be extra careful with his, the trackers and the client's life. I have shot buffalo in tight cover and at very close ranges and then rushed them and got charged. The animal would have died in a matter of minutes / seconds from a good shot, but getting in there and finishing the animal quickly is my choice and that's what I choose to do. Frankly, it is a very ethical thing to do - this method ensures that the animal won't go very far. The trade off is that one might get stomped and that I feel is a risk that most don't want to take. Until and unless somebody comes forward with credible testimonial that Mark has had them wound, or has himself intentionally wounded an animal for cinematic purposes, I recommend that we reserve our criticisms to fact based analysis, not hyperbole based on innuendo / ego. Meanwhile, the jury is out on the "Sullivan vs. SCI" issue. Let's see if anybody has any PROOF that MS intentionally wounds animals for the purposes of sensationalism and profit. Keep it fair and balanced here! And, speaking of IQs, please read this entire thread and make logical rebutts, not the typical emotional BS we witness all too commonmy nowadays. JW | |||
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Exactly why I brought OoA up, I have been angry at SCI for years with that one. I am no longer a member because of that. ~Ann | |||
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Who in Hell is "OUT OF AFRICA"?  | |||
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Larry, Try the search function and you'll get some real corkers! | |||
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I think people are starting to mix up comments about intential wounding and comments about unsafe approaches. I have never heard of anybody first hand saying the animals were wounded on purpose first. I think there is probably truth to the idea that MS does things to increase the number of charges he gets such as: 1) not always approaching from behind 2) not taking finsihing shots from a distance of say 30 or 40 yards when the opportunity exists. 3) or approaching a buff that is clearly alive and waiting to see if it will charge. I think basically he even says so..."I let the animal decide how it wants to die" or words to that effect; i.e., if it wants to simply expire lying down I will let it do that...if it wants to get up and charge, I will let it do that. Funny I just scrolled through Black Death which I think was his first film and there was only one charge out of 5 or six Buffalo kills. That one charge MS probably stood 15 yards from the buff for a good 10-12 seconds while the buff was clearly alive and waited to see if it would get up. That hunter was disabled in some way and was aways away. There was probably another 10 seconds before that where MS could have shot it from say 20 or 25 yeards. He did however approach it from behind. Maybe he others films are "worse". Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi?[/] [i] Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Kim, much of what you state in both your posts are true! Anyone who knows me will tell you I have no love for any chest beating PH who shoots a lot of his client's animals! MS, IMO, does this for two reasons, #1 is because he wants to shoot every buffalo he sees, and the client gets to pay for "HIS" hunt. #2 is because it sells films! I have studied his films to some extent,mainly to read the body language of the buffalo prior to a full charge, and I see exactly the same thing you do. His approch to the downed animal is always exactly opposite the way it should be done not only for the buffalo's sake, but for the safety of his clients as well. As you say he purposfully approches the animal in in his line of sight, from the front, and will often keep moveing about till the buff has no other choice but to get up and fight. What he does is considered by many to be an indication of the size of his gonads, however my opinion is the stopping of a wounded buffalo in a close frontal attack is not that hard because the face of a buffalo is easy to hit at 10 feet with a double rifle. If you look at one of his films where the kid from Argentina wounds a lion with a deflected shot into the guts. Look closely at MS's face while he is getting ready to go in after the lion, the FEAR is regestered all over his face,and understandably so. You notice he doesn't film a lot of lion charges,and he never approches a downed lion before several shots are put into him from some distance, but when he is approching a downed buffalo, the look on his face is almost joy, with no fear at all. So the body language of the animals is not the only study that is evident in his films. My intence dislike of Mark Sullivan is what it is, but in fairness I don't like the public dismissal of anyone without stated reasons to at least the membership, is as unethical as anything MS seems to be guilty of. I would like to see in writing the reasons in detail for his dismissal! Like you I don't like Kangaroo courts that convict without presenting thier side of the case in opposition to the dismissee! Mike Jines has it right, we need to be joined at the hip as hunters, but there is a point where we shouldn't turn a blind eye! To do so on a matter you consider very unethical is not only wrong but hypocritical! ...............  ...............  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Mark Sullivan won't be at SCI 2010
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