The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Mark Sullivan won't be at SCI 2010Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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In defense of SCI, I admit I may have a few loose marbles up top from all the football hits and gunshots, but I cannot believe that the organization simply acted willy nilly, without warning, without some consultation with Mark, before informing him that he would not be allowed to exhibit a booth in 2010. This is a big story in hunting circles, because whether you like it or not, Mark has iconic status. Both sides need to release statements relevant to the matter so the gossip and conjecture can be addressed, especially given the notoriety of both parties involved. | |||
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I got money says MS would rather face his next charging buffalo with a slingshot than have SCI print the contents of the letter they sent him, or make public the entire truth. We can all note that he chose not to publish the letter or tell us what they actually said to him. Like I said, either he has a clientele base that is 99% inept behind a big bore DG rifle, or he sets up the scenarios deliberately. I sent him a PM the day I read the thread and suggested it might be because his clients can't seem to shoot well enough to kill game, and perhaps he needed to let them kill their own game every now and then... Haven't heard back about that, or seen any responses to what people are saying about him here. IMHO, he was hoping for this huge groundswell of support and thousands of Emails and phone calls to SCI demanding they reinstate him. Ain't gonna happen Marky! Rich | |||
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MS has asked to see the the official complaint against him. I'll be every interested to see, #1 Who made the "official"complaint against MS? #2 Does the complainant have any ties to competing African outfitters? #3 Does anybody on the Executive Committee have ties to any competitors of MS? Robert Johnson | |||
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He has a ND agreement with all his video cameramen, as well as those clients who agree to have a charge videod on their hunts. | |||
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Let me be clear I don't like MS hunting shows, But I must point out most outdoor hunting shows operate with the same agreements! Robert Johnson | |||
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Based on the last two posts on page three ARCHERY HUNTING is doomed, and cross bow, and any form of hunting that does not cause INSTANT DEATH to the game. Since there is no practical way to insure instant death, all hunting is doomed eventually. Best to get going on what ever you want to hunt. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ALF: The first and foremost observation of anyone who has watched them with me is, how is it possible to shoot so many buffalo with what are by all accounts adequate guns of adequate caliber and not have a single buffalo drop at the first shot or at least a short time after a single or second shot? If there is any doubt to this, why is it that the culmination of a charge always ends with the buffalo going down ? why did the buffalo not go down when the first shot / shots were fired ? if it could be downed with the last shot why did it not go down with the first shot? Hello Alf, Frankly I have no knowledge what so ever about hunting cape buffalos, so just curious .What percentage of the buffalos you have hunted were killed with a single shot. Assuming you did have a few that weren’t killed after the first shot, did you ever walk right in front of the wounded animal say a couple of yards away to finish it , and it did not charge? | |||
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ALF, don't let something silly like a lack of proof stand in the way of calling a man a liar and his business a fraud. So, let's see how what you've now concluded would have to work. I guess the following would have to take place with each of Sullivan's clients:
2. The client's participation as a co-conspirator is pitched; 3. The client signs a legal non-disclosure agreement in return for a piece of the lucrative film profits; 4. The client is trained on the proper technique and shot placement for wounding their buffalo; or, 5. The client is asked to feign having taken the first shot(s), though in actuality all shots are taken by Sullivan; 6. The deliberate wounding is performed such that the animal is sick enough to approach (and not run off) yet well enough to ensure a charge; and, 7. The client maintains his silence in perpetuity under pain of death and/or humiliation. Now, with the understanding that Sullivan's nefarious video cabal is in pursuit of "financial gain", there is a need for them to guarantee results. Therefore here are some likely contingency plans to ensure a reliable charge and successful video:
B.) To ensure the appropriate agitation of the buffalo, coupled with a suitable charge, Sullivan has a retired matador from Pamplona accompany the hunters replete with a red cape and a couple of out-of-work picadores; and, C.) During 'video sweeps week' Sullivan imports specially-bred Syncerus caffer that instinctively lay in wait and then charge upon being given a verbal cue (rumored to be "ticonderoga") - benefits of using this 'robo-buff' include their being on a non-union payscale and having been trained in both Zimbabwe and Tanzania death-bellow accents. This nefarious plot between Sullivan, his clients, the video producers, and the concession holders ranks it right up there with other now well-proven conspiracies:
• Princess Diana assassinated by Queen Elizabeth • Fluoride is robbing Americans of their precious bodily fluids • AIDs was created in a CIA laboratory • President Bush was behind 9/11 • Elvis is on life-support beneath Graceland • President Obama was actually born in Kenya and is being operated by Soviet moles within the Hawaii State Dept of Health • Walt Disney is on life-support beneath Cinderella's castle • Apollo moon landing was a hoax • Lyndon LaRouche provides the voice of Sponge Bob Squarepants • UFOs regularly vacationed in Roswell, New Mexico • Reptilian humanoids are in control of the Federal Reserve, Pizza Hut, and SCI  With this conspiracy solved, who's going to contact Safari Times? Or will the National Enquirer do? Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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Gosh, Rich, that's tough for me to answer. Can you first help me by clarifying the difference between the two? Aren't hereditary flaws a function of genetics - and therefore are one and the same thing? You know, genetic mutations of the chromosomes that cause breaks in the DNA and then rearrange and become a congenital - or hereditary - flaw? The dense rely upon the enlightened, such as yourself, for help of this sort. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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Just for the sake of clarity, the reason you won't get any (wise) PHs etc to comment on certain aspects of this kind of subject is that it'd be unprofessional for them to do so and also that they're well aware of the possible consequences of making such unprovable statements/criticisms on a public forum. As for why a concession holder might not make an official complaint etc after additional animals might have been taken..... whilst I'm not for a moment suggesting that might happen, if it did and if a formal complaint was made, the additional animals would still count against the area's quota and that could then mean that the clients coming in for the rest of the year wouldn't be allowed to take any of that species because there would be none left on quota. Which is why it's so important to manage the area correctly in the first place. I've got a lot of respect for Alf's opinions. | |||
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Can someone tell me what causes the heavy breathing Sullivan gets into while talking to the camera  | |||
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Having shot quite a few buffalo, mostly with 375 caliber rifles, I would guess my one shot kill on them is about 70%. It seems both Mark Sullivan and his clients are the most inept, unprofessional and bad shots that Africa had to suffer. | |||
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I got a question, Why is a Trophy hunter any better than a thrill seeking hunter. One hunts for the best mountable head and the other hunts for the experience the rush ect. The trophy hunter would look at getting his prize as swiftly and painless as possible and the thrill seeking hunter would do what he feels ,excites him the most in such a scenario a one shot kill wouldn’t help in most circumstances. Now how can someone fairly say either one of the two are ethically wrong. Who created these ethics -the buffalo think not. The argument that lives are being pout at danger does not make sense, as if there is no danger tom life then we rather shoot cows in a farm. Again lets say no one gets killed by a cape buffalo while hunting it for the next 50 years would we be even interested in hunting it? Frankly a few years back I hardy had any knowledge about hunting big game (not much now either lol), wasn’t exactly against it nor was I for it. What changed me was the various safari literature I read, the entire experience sounded interesting and slowly I got more and more interested and now I am totally hooked. So being in a the position that I am in and having seen anti hunting reaction to these videos this is what I noticed-When they see someone shooting a lion that is lying around minding its own business they ask what’s the point (actually this infuriates them even more),what bravado is the hunter exhibiting by shooting a lion which couldn’t care less about his presence from a safe distance. But then again another video where the hunter is nearly under the elephant(A bit of exaggeration id say lol)they see the point to a lil extent as they see the danger in that pursuit. Mind you an anti or a neutral person is not bother about a clean kill or not, from them both are equally bad and pointless so us tearing each other saying that this guy is ruining our image in front of the antis is equally pointless and self defeating. They are not bothered how we do it but at what we do. | |||
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Clearly, the mere use of the words "Mark Sullivan" continues to elicit immediate apoplexy here on AR. Maybe for good reason. That said, can someone please point me to one or more threads with comments from people who have actually hunted with MS? Much smoke, no fire. Vlad's characterization of Saeed as a "sniper" is stunning. Do we now castigate hunters who have developed high shooting skills, and use weapons that allow the use of those skills? Long shots are ethically acceptable only if the shooter's confidence in his ability is justified. Obviously, Saeed's is. | |||
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I have said it many times before, I don't like long shots at animals. But, if I have been following them, sometimes for several hours, and the only chance I get is at a long shot, and I think I can make, I do not hesitate in doing so. | |||
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Damn, KPete, that just about sums it up! I'm glad that being "one of us" has not robbed you of your ability to reason! I came to this thread rather late it seems (it has already reached 4 pages). Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Midol is more like it. ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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I packaged up all the MS evidence I had and shipped it to another member. I suggested he read and view at his own risk, and then burn it. Don't get me wrong, I did not force it on anyone. He was willing and gracious enough to dispose of it for me. Now I am wondering if MS will be facing charges of animal cruelty. What is the extradition status between USA and Tanzania? Walter might think twice before going to work for MS as a "Buffalo Charge Wrangler/Rodeo Clown": | |||
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 DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"  | |||
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RIP very talented indeed. Although if I may make a suggestion, the rifle needs to be changed to a SxS  | |||
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The man behind the rifle is supposed to be me, and I shoot a bolt action rifle. The joker behind me is Walter, and that is precisely what he gets up to on safari - no good! Yesterday he got mad at my 7 year old daughter. She asked him "Walter, why do always break everything?" | |||
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Boring. | |||
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So obvious Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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Can you qoute yourself? I thought I had seen just about everything on this thread. If you start speaking about yourself in the third person, it might be time to reassess the long-term effects of recoil.  Mike | |||
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KPete, my bad, and I apologize to you. Poor choice of words. It is just very hard for me, having seen four of his videos; to accept any defense of his methods. BTW: the first often results from inbreeding, the second is from eating lead based paint chips off your bedroom walls or sniffing glue if you are a "townie". For those who live in the country, eating Jimson Weed seeds for the high will do it faster. Rich The nod-disclosure agreement would be the only way to keep him going. If he tells the client that talking about the actual shooting would cause him (MS) to have to show the whole video; especially the part where the client is shown as a totally inept clown with a rifle, that would do the trick. What person wants video of him screwing up the shot, perhaps on purpose for the gory glory, to be made public? It's an ego trip with your clan back home, nobody wants to be shown to be a dud. | |||
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I admit that once in my youth I too was like Mark Sullivan. Again, let me state that it was only once. I was hunting in the woods on my grandfather’s ranch near Meridian, Texas when I came across a monster possum stirring on a high branch just as the sun was setting. I took a quick off-handed snap shot with my .22 and dropped him from the tree. Somehow the beast managed to rise from the ground. He flashed his needle teeth and let loose a guttural hiss the likes of which I had never heard. It was as though hell sprang from his mouth. I raised my rifle to give him the gift of a quick death but suddenly had a change of heart. My mind raced and I found myself asking, “Why not let this animal choose his own death? Let him choose how he will die in this arena of gladiatorial combat.” I lowered my rifle and screamed, “Come get me you son ah’ bitch!” It took the mammoth possum fifteen minutes to drag his half paralyzed body the ten feet that stretched between us. I shouldered my rifle and fired, putting one right between his eyes just as he got to my boots. The animal twisted and writhed as death claimed him…on his terms…the way he chose to die. I stood there, my pants soaked in urine from the fear of the charge, and vowed never again to let an animal suffer for my own thrill. Later that night as diarrhea worked through my twisted bowels I vowed always to cook possum thoroughly before eating. Crawling onto the floor in severe pain from fecal spasms I thought how the possum had chosen how to spend his afterlife as well…he shot through my bowels the way he wanted to…giving me the squirts the way he decided. But that was a long time ago. I’m ethical now. | |||
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Gayne, you made the whole thread worthwhile . . . can't say the same for the first three pages. Good luck with those fecal spasms by the way.Mike | |||
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Thank you MJ | |||
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I think that something to consider when DG hunting is safety for both the client and the PH. I think that most hunters want to enjoy a successful hunt, and see their loved ones again afterwards and although it may be fun and exhilarating to experience a charge, it is never fun when someone gets hurt and the more risks you take the more the odds stack up against you. I respect the general code basically all PHs stick to in approaching a downed animal from behind, why risk your and other peoples lives when you don't have to. There are many things that can go wrong for example you could slip and fall flat on your back trying to kick some leaves off the ground or shaking a bush trying to prompt a charge and then you would probably not find things too exciting and/or your gun jammed (assuming you did not have a double). It would be a bit hard to explain to the client's family why they were eviscerated when you all had the chance to enjoy the hunt without much risk of serious injury but instead chose to play with fire. If you have to intentionally wound the animal to get a charge (not saying that is the case without any evidence in this case) then that would be totally unacceptable. | |||
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May I just say that we have fairly recently gained two members - Gayne C Young and Kpete - who have added considerable flair, humour, common sense and literacy to these threads. Suggestion for Saeed - a yearly "Oscar" for the best poster on this forum??? These two "new guys" would go straight to the top of my nomination list. AND you could ban Walter - but don't tell him I said so... Cheers all - Happy New Year JT | |||
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Gayne, That is really funny. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi?[/] [i] Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Katie gun: I've read his book, did not puke, and enjoyed it throughly. Out of of about roughly 100 African hunting books in my collection, I would rank it somewhere near the top, mainly because of great color photography of fantastic trophies & gun photos. The text aint a bad read either, and he puts the clients names in the book too (unlike some other writers). Not all the book is charging DG, many great photos of outstanding PG as well! I think his photos attest to his skill & success as a PH. His style may not be for everyone, but clients are free to choose the PH that suits him or her best. Seems many of his clients are quite happy with him. In the book MS explodes the myth of shooting a charging buffalo "up the nose". A myth many writers and even PHs even believed for years. A good thing I would think, don't you? As to shooting buffalo in the hindquarters: in the last few years I always have a copy of The Perfect Shot in camp and give it to my clients to read. I explain to only shoot the buffalo in the shoulder. Recently a client fired at a big bull broadside at 45 yards from shooting sticks,(after me instructing him twice to shoot it in the shoulder) and he still somehow managed to hit the bull high up on the back leg!! It happens, and does not have to be done on purpose! It did not "slow the bull down"; as we tracked it for six hours. BTW: I've seen many, many more poorly placed shots on buffalo then one shot kills. You say they badly shot on purpose to "Slow them down"? Were the buffalo all running when the first shot was taken? Did I miss something? (I admit I have not seen every single video MS has made, but I do have several). Or do you have some exclusive "Bonus Outtakes" at the end of your MS videos that I dont have on mine??  | |||
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This thread gets better with each post.  | |||
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My apologies Saeed...here I thought RIP was implying that Walter is going to jump ships and hook up with MS | |||
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Lhook7 likes this too!  ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Things on this thread are getting testy. I think it best if from now on everyone just addresses my wonderful story posted above. | |||
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This just might be the funniest post I have ever read on AR That was excellent! NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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