Now I have to go back and watch a few of those MS videos.

In truth, I don't remember seeing him shoot any of his clients animals except in the lead-in before the actual video.

Fortunately or unfortunately I've never watched one of his videos in its entirety primarily because my eyes hurt from rolling them every time he described something - too melodramatic and over-acted

BUT what I did see of them was interesting, exciting and helped stoke the fire for the safari my dad and I ultimately made to Africa a few months ago.

so, we can put this to bed with one simple statement: if you want to kill all of your dangerous game yourself (exception: dire emergency NOT brought on by your PH) don't hunt with marky-mark. If you don't need that in a hunt, book with marky-mark.

One thing we now all know, he's planning on killing your game for you.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
I agree entirely ALF. Well said.

I will differ slightly on one small point (not one you made, but one that is inferred in your post and made explicitly by others above). I think its very fair to have an opinion of Mark Sullivan the person entirely based on watching his videos, reading his book or reading his website. He is representing himself in all those media...not playing a fictional role in a "movie".

Spot on! Canuck!

The following is from a "Rule and Regulations Form" that SCI's exhibitors must sign. -- Bill Quimby


The entire form can be seen at:

http://www.showsci.com/docs/ex...nd%20Regulations.pdf


SCI is extremely aware of media and public sensitivity regarding graphic hunting scenes. Because “graphic” is subject to personal interpretation, it is increasingly necessary for us to not only have video display standards for our Annual Hunters’ Convention, but also be ready to respond to convention attendees who find certain visual presentations objectionable. In an effort to ensure an environment that is consistent with SCI’s image and mission, the below listed criteria are defined for our exhibitors.

SCI’s Convention Committee and staff personnel will strictly enforce these standards. If show management receives any complaints, we will ask you to immediately stop running the specific display or remove the offensive photos, signage, etc. Failure to do so could result in removal from the exhibitor floor.

VISUAL DISPLAY STANDARDS:

HUNTING ETHICS STANDARDS:
No wounded or prolonged dying animals Show proper respect for animals
No charge killing Demonstrate appreciation of environment
No labored breathing or kicking No profanity or inappropriate language
No crippled chase or gut shots Proper handling of animal after the kill
No dispatching of wounded animals No “hero” shots (sunglasses, bare chests, etc.)
No excessive blood Presentable image of animal and hunter
No mouth or tongue shot No high fence/enclosure barriers displayed
No arrow left in game No alcohol in hunting scenes
No high-impact killing or repetitive kill shots Demonstrate proper trophy care
No gutting/field preparation
No immature game
Don’t straddle the game

EDUCATION & ENTERTAINING: VISUAL PRODUCTION
Project positive hunter image Ensure highest quality of video/DVD, etc.
Educational content must be accurate Use appropriate music background
Provide complete instructions Use a script where possible
Demonstrate ethical hunting standards Visual support should cover promotion
Entertainment value must be defined Finished product should be a good value
Visual should be able to be shown to non- hunting groups, on national television, etc.
All signage and photos displayed within exhibit area must meet these same standards.

WEAPONS SAFETY: CONSERVATION & GAME LAWS :
Total gun and bow safety Abide by rules of fair chase
Stress no shell in chamber Compliance with license laws
Unload weapon over fence, stream, etc. Clean up camp/pick up trash
Demonstrate tree stand safety No shooting from boats, trucks, etc.
No long-distance or poorly advised shots Wear hunter orange (where applicable)

AUDIO/SOUND STANDARDS:
In general, exhibitors may use sound equipment in their booths so long as the noise level does not disrupt the activities of neighboring exhibitors. External speakers and other sound devices should be positioned facing into the booth to direct the sound into the booth rather than into the aisle. Television monitors up to 25 inches with built-in internal speakers may be positioned facing into the aisle with sound adjustments set at reasonable levels. Rule of thumb: Sound and noise should not exceed 85 decibels.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
so, we can put this to bed with one simple statement: if you want to kill all of your dangerous game yourself (exception: dire emergency NOT brought on by your PH) don't hunt with marky-mark. If you don't need that in a hunt, book with marky-mark.

One thing we now all know, he's planning on killing your game for you.

Rich

I've always had a house policy to NEVER hunt (Or do anything) with people called "Marky-Mark".

quote:

HUNTING ETHICS STANDARDS:
No wounded or prolonged dying animals Show proper respect for animals
No charge killing Demonstrate appreciation of environment
No labored breathing or kicking No profanity or inappropriate language
No crippled chase or gut shots Proper handling of animal after the kill
No dispatching of wounded animals No “hero” shots (sunglasses, bare chests, etc.)
No excessive blood Presentable image of animal and hunter
No mouth or tongue shot No high fence/enclosure barriers displayed
No arrow left in game No alcohol in hunting scenes
No high-impact killing or repetitive kill shots Demonstrate proper trophy care
No gutting/field preparation
No immature game
Don’t straddle the game

Bloody hell!

Might as well not go hunting then!

Has PC gotten to this stage now with the SCI nutjobs?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:



Bloody hell!

Might as well not go hunting then!

Has PC gotten to this stage now with the SCI nutjobs?

This is only for the purposes of the visual display at the convention I believe...

Definition: "feeding frenzy" - When the sharks start eating so unreservedly that they devour each other as well as their prey.

Sullivan should have been banned as soon as he reared his ugly head.

That it has taken so long to do so is a stain as much on SCI as on Sullivan.

It's a damned disgrace.

quote:

HUNTING ETHICS STANDARDS:
No wounded or prolonged dying animals Show proper respect for animals
No charge killing Demonstrate appreciation of environment
No labored breathing or kicking No profanity or inappropriate language
No crippled chase or gut shots Proper handling of animal after the kill
No dispatching of wounded animals No “hero” shots (sunglasses, bare chests, etc.)
No excessive blood Presentable image of animal and hunter
No mouth or tongue shot No high fence/enclosure barriers displayed
No arrow left in game No alcohol in hunting scenes
No high-impact killing or repetitive kill shots Demonstrate proper trophy care
No gutting/field preparation
No immature game
Don’t straddle the game

To Africa travellers go
The call of a distant land
And on Safari they will show
In which measure they do stand

If you're to hunt an animal
By all means pot'em neatly
But to show at SCI's annual
The game changes completely

So on a stalk if practical
Take time to film and flash 'em
But if it's to be ethical
Don't use your gun to blast 'em


Breaker Morant is probably rolling in his grave at that one... But I couldn't help myself.

TwoZero

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the poem....as soon as I read the first verse, I recognised shades of Breaker Morant and was glad to see your comment at the bottom to confirm it!



For those who might not know know who Breaker Morant was:

BUTCHERED TO MAKE A DUTCHMAN’S HOLIDAY
By Breaker Morant


In prison cell I sadly sit,
A d__d crest-fallen chappie!
And own to you I feel a bit-
A little bit - unhappy!


It really ain't the place nor time
To reel off rhyming diction -
But yet we'll write a final rhyme
Whilst waiting cru-ci-fixion!


No matter what "end" they decide -
Quick-lime or "b'iling ile," sir?
We'll do our best when crucified
To finish off in style, sir!


But we bequeath a parting tip
For sound advice of such men,
Who come across in transport ship
To polish off the Dutchmen!


If you encounter any Boers
You really must not loot 'em!
And if you wish to leave these shores,
For pity's sake, DON'T SHOOT 'EM!!


And if you'd earn a D.S.O.,
Why every British sinner
Should know the proper way to go
Is: "ASK THE BOER TO DINNER!"


Let's toss a bumper down our throat, -
Before we pass to Heaven,
And toast: "The trim-set petticoat
We leave behind in Devon."

Breaker Morant, an Australian larrikin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrikinism) from the dark side. Mmmm, wonder if MS is related.

Still, if you sleep with dogs you get fleas.

As with all these things, politics and semantics raise their heads.

As I see it, Morant was a poor sucker who obeyed the orders of the time and then got sold down the river by the politicians and top military to accommodate a peace process. He was (IMO) certainly not from the dark side.

Let's also not forget that of the 5(?) that were accused, Morant and one other were shot and the others were despite long sentences, released after a very short time.

Churchill described the British army as 'lions led by donkeys' and that description could still be applied even now.

If anyone is interested, the story is told in the movie 'Breaker Morant' starring Edward Woodward.... and it's a bloody good movie.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I have watched four of Sullivan's videos myself. I wonder if the ban has anything to do with the fact that none of his clients can shoot? You that have one or more, watch them and make a note of how many of his clients can kill a dangerous game animal cleanly with one or two shots.
My personal opinion, is that he seems to end up with clients that wound an animal, and then the camera guys can get he and the client stopping a charge at three or four feet. Every hunt seems to conveniently end up with wounded game charging and having to be dispatched by the great MOS at pissing distance.

I would be embarrassed to be seen as an incompetent buffoon in any of his videos.

JMHO

Rich

..
.
. Well , I might as well . Don,t know what all was said in the 5 pages between then and here , but I have seen several people in his videos dump their animals bang flop , , One , a hippo at close range the guy used one of Mark's doubles and brained the hippo , dead as a wedge , then Mark shot it ... The guy did great . There were several others also . a 1 shot , heart shotbuffalo with a 400 . a lion with a Weatherby ... Not defending Mr Sullivan . He can prolly do that hisself ....... More just buggin Idaho ,,,,,,,

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

HUNTING ETHICS STANDARDS:
No wounded or prolonged dying animals Show proper respect for animals
No charge killing Demonstrate appreciation of environment
No labored breathing or kicking No profanity or inappropriate language
No crippled chase or gut shots Proper handling of animal after the kill
No dispatching of wounded animals No “hero” shots (sunglasses, bare chests, etc.)
No excessive blood Presentable image of animal and hunter
No mouth or tongue shot No high fence/enclosure barriers displayed
No arrow left in game No alcohol in hunting scenes
No high-impact killing or repetitive kill shots Demonstrate proper trophy care
No gutting/field preparation
No immature game
Don’t straddle the game

Bloody hell!

Might as well not go hunting then!

Has PC gotten to this stage now with the SCI nutjobs?

.
.
. Nah Saeed , just give them the inside half of a peace sign and hunt on ..........
. I always prefer to see people sitting or standing on the animals they killed ....Especially predators .............. What ,are we supposed to let the game rot where it lays , ( no gutting/field preperation ). . And whats with , no dispatching of wounded animals ....???????? Glad I,ve never wasted one red cent on SCI ...I never will either ..... I hope they get their pinky fingers broke .....!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Gayne C. Young:
I admit that once in my youth I too was like Mark Sullivan. Again, let me state that it was only once.

I was hunting in the woods on my grandfather’s ranch near Meridian, Texas when I came across a monster possum stirring on a high branch just as the sun was setting. I took a quick off-handed snap shot with my .22 and dropped him from the tree. Somehow the beast managed to rise from the ground. He flashed his needle teeth and let loose a guttural hiss the likes of which I had never heard. It was as though hell sprang from his mouth.

I raised my rifle to give him the gift of a quick death but suddenly had a change of heart. My mind raced and I found myself asking, “Why not let this animal choose his own death? Let him choose how he will die in this arena of gladiatorial combat.”

I lowered my rifle and screamed, “Come get me you son ah’ bitch!”

It took the mammoth possum fifteen minutes to drag his half paralyzed body the ten feet that stretched between us. I shouldered my rifle and fired, putting one right between his eyes just as he got to my boots. The animal twisted and writhed as death claimed him…on his terms…the way he chose to die.

I stood there, my pants soaked in urine from the fear of the charge, and vowed never again to let an animal suffer for my own thrill.
Later that night as diarrhea worked through my twisted bowels I vowed always to cook possum thoroughly before eating.

Crawling onto the floor in severe pain from fecal spasms I thought how the possum had chosen how to spend his afterlife as well…he shot through my bowels the way he wanted to…giving me the squirts the way he decided.

But that was a long time ago.

I’m ethical now.

Had a similar experience with a chipmunk......

Steve,

Breaker Morant was romanticised in that movie (which is as you say Steve) a bloody good watch that contains historical inconsistancys.

The fact is, he led a bunch of irregular yar-hoos unconfined by any rules of warfare who perpetrated war crimes against the Boer people.

Because he could write poetry and became the first identifiable symbol (despite his country of birth) of an emerging Australian identity (Later consecrated on the shores of Gallipoli) has led to his (in)famy.

Does MS write poetry ?

Code 4,

Romaticised perhaps, but there's no doubt the official order of take no prisoners was given and there's no doubt that his friend (brother in law to be?) was tortured and killed....... whether or not the guys BM captured and shot afterwards, were the same ones that had killed his friend, I really don't know.

I also believe that the two executions had considerably more to do with politics than with justice and that the entire war was an extremely dirty one with atrocities committed on both sides, that frankly should never have happened.

Bloody politicians again!

Either way, as we both agree, it's a helluva good watch!

On the subject of politicians, here's one that should be engraved on the hearts of every one of the bastards:

Two Sides of War (All Wars)
"All wars are planned by older men
In council rooms apart,
Who call for greater armament
And map the battle chart.

But out along the shattered field
Where golden dreams turn gray,
How very young the faces were
Where all the dead men lay.

Portly and solemn in their pride,
The elders cast their vote
For this or that, or something else,
That sounds the martial note.

But where their sightless eyes stare out
Beyond life's vanished toys,
I've noticed nearly all the dead
Were hardly more than boys."

~Grantland Rice

Perhaps we should let this post "Choose how it wants to die"

quote:

Originally posted by silkibex:
Perhaps we should let this post "Choose how it wants to die"

Die it will, but my only question is this string a love for MS or hatered for SCI?

I saw Breaker Morant and it is a good movie. It is interesting that that issues raised are the very same issues that we are confronting now, and have been during, and since, Vietnam. Not surprising, but it is clear that they have not been resolved to anyone's satisfaction. The question of how does a conventional army (Western army perhaps?) fight a guerilla/insurgency is still open. Having said that, are there any historically accurate accounts of the "Breaker" events? Did he for example shoot the Dutch "priest/minister" because he was a collaborator?
Curiously I did not remember the poem quoted above, but DID remember Woodward's recitation from Pilgrim's Progress (a flashback in the movie). I will have to see it again. Much better topic than MS IMHO.
Peter.

.

quote:

if you want to kill all of your dangerous game yourself (exception: dire emergency NOT brought on by your PH) don't hunt with marky-mark. If you don't need that in a hunt, book with marky-mark.

Although he did NOT provoke charges (actually shot to prevent them), Andrew Dawson (when he used to be on TAA all the time) used to shoot almost every buff "with" the client. I would not want that either!

A great PH once told me he considers he has had a great season when does not fire a single shot during his hunts.

I totally agree with him.

quote:

But then we have those who or neither pro or anti, those who are neither hot or cold, they who heartily eat their meat but who choose not to know where and how it came to the shop shelf, who will readily wear leather but will put money in the tins of various conservation and anti animal cruelty tins; like a political campaign they are the ones we need to court, hence what seems to be trivial or irritating to us.

I wonder how many of those will pay $160 to attend the SCI convention so they can see the sanitized, don't get anyone's panties in a wad version of killing game?

If it costs $160 to attend, perhaps they should change the name to $CI

OK, I admit it's an old joke but I couldn't resist it.

I would like to know when MS received his notice. Personally, a booking agent told me about it months ago (at least 3 months ago). I was told that the videos were the issue.

Only MS, PHC, or the .45-70 could get this many pages in a couple days.

Brett

quote:

I totally agree with him.

Me Too!!!

quote:

A great PH once told me he considers he has had a great season when does not fire a single shot during his hunts.

My good friend Nigel Theisen always says: "The LAST thing I want to do is shoot your animal."

I'm a bit jealous here...

Some "nobody" from Africa gets banned from SCI Reno and gets ten times as much attention as my most controversial post.

RE: Breaker Morant. My senior year in HS we did Shakespeare and I got to do Henry and the speech on Saint Crispin's Day. Two years later I'm in a Ranger Company in beautiful I Corps up on the DMZ.
We were sitting around a pallet fire talking about home, and the speech popped back in my head. The only time I got a standing ovation by my peers.

Shakari, can you post that one?

Rich

I wonder if the term "ethical" is really as flexible as this thread makes it seem?
I think we all know the difference between right and wrong, just like we know what is ethical. The decision is whether we'll honor it. I figure "long" shots could be in the discussion but I find it amusing that we will now include whether a rifle shot taken at 115 yards or 15 yards in the discussion. Have we lost our minds? That is a preference, not a moral question. Next we'll discuss if cutting up spagetti as opposed to twirling it diminishes the enjoyment of the meal. On the other hand, any deliberate inhumane act is not ethical in the common use of the term. And you "know it when you see it".

OF COURSE The proper thing for SCI to do is explain to MS why they have taken this action.If they have already done that, and he has erroneously stated otherwise, they should enlighten us, as Marc is then manipulating the situation. We will probably never get an answer from them though.

Just wondering:I have no idea how many DG "shoots" MS does during the period covered by a video production cycle- 25? 50? 100? With multiple DG shoots for a single client a distinct possibility, has any of the PH's out there got a guess at the number he might be involved in during a good year? Apparently not all of them make it to video. How many folks are involved? And not one person steps up and says, "Yep, it's true the SOB is dirty". Keeping a secret is pretty tough for most folks, someone should have spoken up by now. A ND agreement means legal action it's true, but how in the hell would you take that action against someone who leaked unethical and possibly illegal acts without harming yourself more than the leak? I don't care for MS's videos, but I don't care for public lynching either. In most cases...

Intersting suggestion that the overkill charges may not have been reported by owners to authorities in another "unethical act" - to circumvent the allocation limits. Are we up in arms about that? Sure it wasn't their fault, but "rules is rules". And they could not step up now else they admit to breaking the law...what a tangled web.

The SCI guidelines were for the show, not for hunting - hunting in an ethical manner demands many of the acts they don't want shown in videos at the show. The public image of hunting is important. SCI has every right, and in fact SHOULD decide what the limits are at THEIR show. At least they allow "booth babes". An exhibitor there can still get his message across within those guidelines. This is not uncommon to trade shows in many industries. "Hospitality Suites" are one way to expand the rules - food, "beverages" and other "amenities" are usually not allowed on the floor, but they abound at the suites. Hand outs of tapes and DVD's can skirt the rules if that's what you need to sell your product, but certainly SCI has the right and duty to control the public image of the gathering bearing their name. I think the public "middles" should be shielded from some images of reality or the entire concept of consuming meat will come under attack...you can't fix stupid!

quote:

Henry and the speech on Saint Crispin's Day

Rich,

The only time I got a standing ovation for reciting a poem was for Eskimo Nell!

However, I know the one you mean very well..... couldn't recite it though.

Here it is:

What's he that wishes so?
My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin;
If we are mark'd to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires.
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England.
God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more methinks would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is call'd the feast of Crispian.
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian.'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispian's day.'
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words-
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester-
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

quote:

I'm a bit jealous here...

Some "nobody" from Africa gets banned from SCI Reno and gets ten times as much attention as my most controversial post.

He even beat my Mandela comments on "Invictus"!!!

Ah! Eskimo Nell! Takes me back to my college days! What ever happened to those days? Thanks for reminding me Steve!
I can recite the last 8 lines of Henry's Agincourt speech though!
Peter.

Well, you learn something everyday..Eskimo Nell was somehow absent from the curriculum at my college, and now I have learned of it! Dead Eye might be related to that fellow from Nantucket...

Peter,

I made up a collection of all my favourite poems many years ago with work from people such as Kipling, Keats, Wordsworth, Service, Brooke, Kyham etc and it goes on all my safaris with me and I can recite a large many of 'em.

I never read a book on safari because I don't have time to get into a book but I treasure a few minutes with the poems first thing in the morning before anyone else gets up and last thing at night.

"OF COURSE The proper thing for SCI to do is explain to MS why they have taken this action. If they have already done that, and he has erroneously stated otherwise, they should enlighten us, as Marc is then manipulating the situation. We will probably never get an answer from them though."


I have no dog in this fight. Although I once had lunch with Mark Sullivan, I can't say that I know him. I do not know anyone who has hunted with him, nor have I ever watched one of his videos.

However, the existence of a form governing standards of the videos that exhibitors are allowed to show at SCI conventions, a form that all exhibitors are required to sign, leads me to suspect that he is not totally ignorant of the reason he was denied booth space.

Bill Quimby

SteveH, Eskimo Nell is yet another example of why the British educational system is regarded as the world's best!
Shakari, I can also recite the poem from The Black Arrow:
"I have four black arrows in my belt
Four for the griefs that I have felt
Four for the number of ill men
That have oppressed me now and then
One is gone, one is well sped
'Ol Applyard is dead..."
John Amend All had something going for him!
That gives me goose bumps just to say it!
Oops! Forgot to mention my father's favorite poem "Casabianca"!
Screw Mark Sullivan, SCI and the horse they rode in on. This stuff is so much better, and we have educated someone!
Peter.