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With so many injuries and accidents inherant to PH's and hunt staff, perhaps a compulsory fee is needed for all to invest and create an 'insurance' to assist those in dire need by organizations such as ZPHGA, etc. | |||
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Wow. This whole incident is obviously unfortunate but I have to say that the multiple threads of Monday morning quarterbacking and criticisms of Tim after the fact highlight one thing...like any other species, humans will prey on you when you are most vulnerable. Someone asking for help or you giving it does NOT buy you the right to publicly tear someone down. In my mind you either give with the idea that there are no strings or don't even bother because you are in it for the wrong reasons. Frankly, I'd love to see how effectively some on here would deal with their own professonal lives, inevitable emotional trauma, personal relationships, day to day financial obligations, and monetary obligations toward Stu. I wonder how many on various threads could meet their own professed standards of timeliness and effort and do so simultaneously in these varied spheres.. Further, and to be totally blunt, if the first post in this thread was made before contacting Tim privately to inquire, well...that is just low-rent rubbish. | |||
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+1 That would certainly have been the classy and professional move. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Nothing wrong with looking out for Stu professionally, as a friend, or for any other reason........ That said much like Aaron Neilson found out with bringing up lion conservation on World Hunter's hunt report........there's a right way and a wrong way of going about doing things. The comment about Tim's supposed contributions this far was WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY out of line, WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY inappropriate, and quite frankly grossly unprofessional. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Little known fact: Brad's middle name is Jesus, which accounts for his unerring judgement of others and ability to mercilessly criticize actions with little obvious information. Same old....... Brett PS. I'll take a hat Tim....... DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most times he will pick himself up and carry on. ~ Winston Churchill ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Apropriate quote, Andrew. From both perspectives. ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, duke of York ". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand Cogito ergo venor- KPete “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.” ― Adam Smith - “Wealth of Nations” | |||
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Frankly, you have missed the point of my post...the first part was to note the contradiction, in suggesting the use of PMs.... My point about Martin was in regards to the initial post on this thread and not the post you note... While your comments directed at Martin's other posts may have some merit (depending on actual facts), instead of putting more gasoline on this situaton don't you think that you should have provided Martin the opportunity to respond by PM and possibly clarify his comments? | |||
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Since he already posted on a public form I'm not sure it matters, but perhaps you are right. That said his second post was certainly not the most professional foot forward. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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This is a constructive note and worthy of consideration....I would certainly be willing to pay extra for a Safari to fund such efforts. Possibly this is something Tim could work with Martin towards... | |||
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For Heaven's sake, Martin is the one that raised the issue publicly and not by PM. That was not the right way to handle the situation in my opinion, but once done to suggest that further comment should be by PM is asinine. That is akin to suggesting that someone can throw a turd in the punchbowl publicly but no one should be able to thereafter publicly point out that there is a turd in the punchbowl. C'mon now. Mike | |||
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I said I was staying away from this...but I guess I need to make one other post... most of the confusion of money, funds and how much Stu had received came from the fact that we had been told that money was being sent to Stu, then it was delayed. Conservation Force is really helping in this as we had not been able to find a way to actually get Stu the money before they stepped in because of the problems with Zim. They have been a great help, but the waiting to transfer funds after they told us they were being sent is the root of much of the confusion here. I am not nocking CF at all, they were trying to do things the best way they thought, and since we had been told money was being sent, I thought it was taken care of. Everyone is trying to help, there have just been some crossed wires... now with all the back and forth...all I can say is I am doing all I can and will continue that no matter what anyone thinks. Below is from an email I received this morning from Stu after we had talked back and forth a little about all of this...We are friends, we know the real deal and real happenings of this situation, and everyone else's opinions are very much secondary. "Tim I am really sorry to hear about the AR report, I to do not want this to turn ugly, and get blown out of proportion. I don't go onto the AR websites I am not aware of the details of what Martin Pierters has written. It is for this very reason I don't go on these websites. I truly appreciate everything you have done and are doing to try and help me. I to consider you a friend and I hope this will not jeopardise that, and I do understand what you have been going through since the ordeal as well. Thank you for your prayers and all you are doing. Cheers, Stu " Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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Exactly what this all is really about for you. Pathetic Brad!! ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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All these "pot shots" taken only serve to make matters worse...provide nothing positive and are just flat wrong...rationalize what you will.. | |||
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Calling any of my comments a "pot shot" aside from calling out Brad is a stretch. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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I was addressing MJines comments... As far a 505 Gibbs (Brad), I find many of his posts on AR disgusting to say the least...usually just ignore much of what he posts | |||
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Brett, I find it ironic that you say the above right after you say this...
Ironic, no? Perhaps you are the only one allowed to criticize the handling of this and other situations. But you are right, it is the "Same old......", you and some of the other clowns around here always doing your best to muddy the waters so the original topic is lost in the shuffle. The fact that you and others are complaining about the forum chosen to air this problem diminishes and takes attention away from what is currently ongoing. Tim didn't have a fender bender with someone, he didn't accidentally knock someone down, he shot a man in the back with an elephant gun. Stu's life and at least 2 generations of his family have been affected forever. And the guy who did it, (before this was brought to light) hasn't even followed up to find out how the man is doing or if he is getting the aid that is being collected for him. You guys are dense, and completely focused on the wrong part of this story. What would you do if you blew a hole in another mans back, altering his life forever? Would you give until it hurt and you had nothing left to give? Or, would you go home, carry on with your life and not bother to try to mend the damage you have done? Despite your interpretation of my (and others) posts, I am not judging Tim, that will be done by the Lord right before he does the same to me (as long as it is in alphabetical order). However, I am not hesitant to tell Tim where I disagree with him, in hope that he will catch his snap, quit being so selfish and get after the real business at hand. | |||
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you 2 are morons, this thread is about a man that was shot by another man and before this thread had only recieved $2,500 in aid. You 2 dolts are focused on some asshole in Texas you don't agree with, genius. | |||
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Comprehension and the ability to follow posts here must not be one of your strong suits...the name calling, I just attribute that to what you seem to be lacking.... | |||
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Perceptive!! ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Right, an asshole that contributed financially to address Stu's situation which I am confident cannot be said for many if not most of the peanut gallery on this thread. If we had $10 for everyone that has an opinion that they are unwilling to back up with their wallet, Stu would have no financial worries for several years. I asked 505gibbs a good long time ago whether he stepped up to do his part financially, his silence is telling. Always easier to be part of the problem than part of the solution. Mike | |||
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Brad I suggest you find some positive outlet for your "energy" like Lion's Club, Rotary, Ruritans, Big Brothers Big Sisters or something similar. Hanging on internet forums to poke sticks in people's eyes for entertainment and fun is pathetic. Jim had that right. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Theres a saying in aviation,..which is also appropriate to other areas in life; 'if you cannot afford the maintenance, then how can you afford an accident?' maintenance is a form of insurance,...and insurance is a form of maintenance. It is ones own responsibility to ensure one is covered for risk/loss/mishap.... People comprehensively insure their Lamborgnini in order to cover the cost of damage/loss suffered when; - their wife crashes it, - flood,hailstorm damages it, - half-blind financially poor old lady accidently runs into them, - a purely malicious asshole runs a carKey across the paintwork or steals and wrecks it. In the case where Boddingtons daughter accidently shot the dog handler on a Leopard hunt, the dog handler should be covered by an insurance policy implemented by his employer... a policy that should also cover the employee in the event of being mauled/injured or killed by the wild animal. | |||
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Tim used this forum to raise money- which apparently is taking quite a while to reach Stu. i see nothing wrong with Martin using the same forum to enquire as to WHERE THE MONEY IS!! IF IT'S GOOD FOR THE GOOSE, IT'S GOOD FOR THE GANDER. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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If ZPHGA posted here before simply contacting Tim, that is like a client dragging an outfitter through the mud before trying to work it out one on one. To me it is Jr. High low rent bullshit.....unless of course we place PHs on such a pedastal that they are subject to different social rules. | |||
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The facts remain that Stu was shot, a fund for Stu was created using AR to promote it and several months later Stu has not received the money other than the $2500.00 Instead of killing the messenger, those who donated should be asking why their donations have not arrived and most important why is Stu not being receiving the money intended to help him. It is not the difficult to wire money to Zim. We do it regularly to pay for hunts. | |||
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Once again, this thread has experienced a complete tangent to it's origional content. Leave the blame game out of it...................................... | |||
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All Tim had to do is state I am doing everything I can both financially and emotionally to correct what has happened and unfortunately it may not be enough and if you find it in your heart to lend a hand in whatever ways that can help and hopefully I can repay you someday or whenever should are tracks cross NRA Life Member, ILL Rifle Assoc Life Member, Navy | |||
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This is a painful thread to read. IMO, raamw has hit the nail right on the head with the below statement that is only three lines long. Tim seems to be a a wonderful guy who is going through the worst experience of his life...Stu's wounds will heal and he will get through this financially as well, but Tim will never live this down and it will haunt him till the day he dies. I think that what is bothering allot of people here...the 800lb Gorilla in the room...is that Tim is NOT articulating clearly enough on what HIS personal financial contributions are and that he is soliciting funds for his mistake while continuing to conduct his own hunting trips, etc etc. I have expressed my condolances to Tim over several PM's and I can tell you that this is not the case and that he is suffering his own personal hell, but the perception becomes the reality in time. I think that Tim should take the time to heed raamw's advice and articulate what his personal sacrifices have been and clear this mess up once and for all. Some here may think that Tim's contributions are a private matter, but when you solicite funds on a public forum for your own mistake you are making your personal situation a public one. I am writing this after reading the entire thread only with the intention of lending my advice/opinion for resolving a terrible situation. Tim I wish you all the best!
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All this debate as to whether Tim is a "sinner" or "saint" is a fucking sideshow... the real question is have YOU as an African hunter done your part and given something to Stu's fund? Or Owain's? Or Ant's? Or Wayne's? All the other bullshit is a bunch of old lady rants criticizing each other! It is a "I am holier than thou" attitude and mindset. Each of us has a responsibility if you truly believe you are "one of us" in the African hunting fraternity. The rest is white noise and smoke screens. Damn and I swore I wouldn't get caught up in these threads... On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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+1 ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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+2 Very true. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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I think this is actually an excellent idea - given the large pool of professionals ( PH's, camp staff, cameramen, etc) in that country it would seem that such self-insurance would be a pretty good option, if there is no other reasonable staff insurance available. I am sure the companies involved (collectively) could easily manage such a fund. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Great in theory but almost impossible in practice. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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Seems interesting only Lhook7 thought this was a good idea. If you think about it, it would generate enough income to pay for Stu's healthcare and loss of wages. Hell, one lion hunt with Stu next year would come close to paying the whole thing. Tim, you asked for ideas, well, here is one of them. | |||
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I think Martin's professional duty is to the members of his organisation. If the post prompted enquiries to see what was happening and why funds had not been transferred I think it was a worthwhile thing to do. Obviously Stuart Taylor has bills to pay, medical and also living expenses. I don't think many African countries have disability pension schemes ... As for the post here or not, if the matters were part of a speech at the annual dinner of the association, then it is a public matter already. And LOTS of PH's would be aware of it, and next to nothing having been paid to the beneficiary to date. What would someone be paid in compensation if this incident happened to an American hunting guide in the USA? I personally have no idea? | |||
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If it is another fee to the client, I disagree with another new "fee". These accidents are quite rare and often partly negligence. Not commenting on the specific persons of this thread at all. I think it is the responsibility of the client, PH and outfitter to take their own personal insurance out, as much as they see it is important or not, affordability or not. There are insurance policies available for clients - travel policies which do cover hunting, I normally try to get one when hunting and travelling, also PHs can get insurance as well. But they can be very expensive, and some can not afford them. Eg if an appy PH gets $25 a day income, no way could they afford it. A PH on $125 to $250 a day could be difficult too. If a company or person is involved in a commercial activity, such as making a video for sale, it would be prudent for that company to ensure they have proper insurance cover for hunting. Hell bells, if hunting on a stud farm, and I have, where thoroughbred horses or stud bulls or rams are pastured, the bill for shooting one of them by accident can be tens of thousands, to hundreds of thousands of dollars (or possibly millions), let alone a human being. Shooting a human being would probably see the shooter end up defending their actions and the facts in a criminal court. | |||
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NitroX: "Hell bells, if hunting on a stud farm, and I have, where thoroughbred horses or stud bulls or rams are pastured, the bill for shooting one of them by accident can be tens of thousands, to hundreds of thousands of dollars (or possibly millions), let alone a human being. Shooting a human being would probably see the shooter end up defending their actions and the facts in a criminal court." From some of the postings (quite a few) there are people who don't think this way. | |||
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Not to stray off topic, but I saw someone post Ant's name regarding a similar issue. Can someone please enlighten me here or via PM? thanks. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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