quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
I think it is the responsibility of the client, PH and outfitter to take their own personal insurance out, as much as they see it is important or not, affordability or not. There are insurance policies available for clients - travel policies which do cover hunting, I normally try to get one when hunting and travelling, also PHs can get insurance as well. But they can be very expensive, and some can not afford them. Eg if an appy PH gets $25 a day income, no way could they afford it. A PH on $125 to $250 a day could be difficult too.

Someone earlier posted:

"There's a saying in aviation,..which is also appropriate to other areas in life;

'if you cannot afford the maintenance, then how can you afford an accident?'

maintenance is a form of insurance,...and insurance is a form of maintenance.

It is ones own responsibility to ensure one is covered for risk/loss/mishap...."

If you cannot afford to insure yourself from the hazards of your profession (or in the case of a client, your avocation), then perhaps you are in the wrong profession (or pursuing the wrong avocation).

Well after all the BS on this thread at least Stu has some money coming his way. If it took this to hurry it along, it was worth it.
Best to you Stu!

Mike

I have to disagree with you there on the below comment

"If you cannot afford to insure yourself from the hazards of your profession (or in the case of a client, your avocation), then perhaps you are in the wrong profession (or pursuing the wrong avocation)."

I have been looking into life insurance that also covers disability here in Zim and on a PH salary I will be able pay the monthly installments but certainly wont be able to live let alone save- thats just the reality of PH salaries in Zim anyway.

I would be paying a premium on the obvious been Hunting, gun handling, Hunting Dangerous game, using a heavy caliber and the fact that I have been injured hunting before raises my premiums further and to top it all off the insurance company puts Zim in the same category as Afghanistan- combine all this and it makes the monthly payments out of reach on a PH salary !!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
I think it is the responsibility of the client, PH and outfitter to take their own personal insurance out, as much as they see it is important or not, affordability or not. There are insurance policies available for clients - travel policies which do cover hunting, I normally try to get one when hunting and travelling, also PHs can get insurance as well. But they can be very expensive, and some can not afford them. Eg if an appy PH gets $25 a day income, no way could they afford it. A PH on $125 to $250 a day could be difficult too.

...

It is ones own responsibility to ensure one is covered for risk/loss/mishap...."

If you cannot afford to insure yourself from the hazards of your profession (or in the case of a client, your avocation), then perhaps you are in the wrong profession (or pursuing the wrong avocation).

I asked earlier if someone shoot a guide in an accident in the USA, what would be the liability/payout required?

I know if I accidently hit another car on the road, and it is my fault, and even if it was accidentally done, the law holds me responsible in part for it. Is shooting a person accidentally different?

I agree somewhat with the above. Surely the commercial video/TV production company has insurance to cover third party liability for an accident such as this. If there is a responsibility.

As you wrote above:

quote:

If you cannot afford to insure yourself from the hazards of your profession (or in the case of a client, your avocation), then perhaps you are in the wrong profession (or pursuing the wrong avocation).

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Mike

I have to disagree with you there on the below comment

"If you cannot afford to insure yourself from the hazards of your profession (or in the case of a client, your avocation), then perhaps you are in the wrong profession (or pursuing the wrong avocation)."

I have been looking into life insurance that also covers disability here in Zim and on a PH salary I will be able pay the monthly installments but certainly wont be able to live let alone save- thats just the reality of PH salaries in Zim anyway.

I would be paying a premium on the obvious been Hunting, gun handling, Hunting Dangerous game, using a heavy caliber and the fact that I have been injured hunting before raises my premiums further and to top it all off the insurance company puts Zim in the same category as Afghanistan- combine all this and it makes the monthly payments out of reach on a PH salary !!!!!!

That's a decision for the PH to make, but once they make that conscious decision, like all decisions, there are consequences associated with the decision that one must be prepared to accept and deal with. Some have effectively suggested that in the absence of the PH or the outfitter choosing to carry insurance, the client should effectively become the insurer. That is the point I take issue with. Does the client bear responsibility, certainly, but that does not let the PH and outfitter off the hook for their conscious decision to forego insuring the risk and to continue to act as a PH.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Does the client bear responsibility, certainly, but that does not let the PH and outfitter off the hook for their conscious decision to forego insuring the risk.

I don't understand. The liability for an accident is not the PH's or the Outfitter's.

Their insurance provides peace of mind, ie insurance against such a risk. Surely, the (alleged or potential) liability is not changed by their not having their own insurance?

Liability is liability, whoever causes the problem bears the liability, there can be mitigating circumstances that may reduce it. In our country the most common cause for personal liability is the automobile accident many of us carry uninsured motorist insurance in the event that the culprit has no insurance. But from what experience I have with insurance companies they don't like to pay if another party is involved they go after them until there is nothing to take.

Sheesh, I should just let this stuff go. I am not talking about liability in a civil or criminal sense, I am talking about the responsibility each of us has to look after the financial well being of ourselves and our families. Let's forget about a shooting. The PH is in a tree hanging a bait and falls out, breaks his neck and is paralyzed. The responsibility for planning for that possibility -- or failing to plan for that possibility -- is the PH's, not anyone else. That is the only point I am trying to make. In life bad things happen, we owe it to ourselves and our families to understand that and to provide for that possibility. In the shooting situation, is the client responsible and do they have a moral obligation (and perhaps legal too) to do what they can to assist, absolutely. But that does not relieve the PH and the outfitter from their responsibilities to ensure that regardless of what happens and whether the client acts responsibly or not, that they are adequately provided for.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Mike

I have to disagree with you there on the below comment

"If you cannot afford to insure yourself from the hazards of your profession (or in the case of a client, your avocation), then perhaps you are in the wrong profession (or pursuing the wrong avocation)."

I have been looking into life insurance that also covers disability here in Zim and on a PH salary I will be able pay the monthly installments but certainly wont be able to live let alone save- thats just the reality of PH salaries in Zim anyway.

I would be paying a premium on the obvious been Hunting, gun handling, Hunting Dangerous game, using a heavy caliber and the fact that I have been injured hunting before raises my premiums further and to top it all off the insurance company puts Zim in the same category as Afghanistan- combine all this and it makes the monthly payments out of reach on a PH salary !!!!!!

In most of the EU this is not a problem. You may not hunt or own a gun without insurance. This covers any damage you may inflict on third party that be a person or property.

Further you are not allowed to have any employee with out you as an employer insuring your him or her during work.

If this was also the law in Zim the extra costs would automatically be put on the price of the hunt.

Good hunting

Carl Frederik

Regards CF

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

In most of the EU this is not a problem. You may not hunt or own a gun without insurance. This covers any damage you may inflict on third party that be a person or property.

Further you are not allowed to have any employee with out you as an employer insuring your him or her during work.

If this was also the law in Zim the extra costs would automatically be put on the price of the hunt.

Good hunting

Carl Frederik

Regards CF

Carl,

How does it work with visiting hunters from abroad? Does a hunting licence/permit include an insurance portion?

I ask, as I have hunted there, including in Denmark, with a Danish hunting licence, and never had to declare my insurance cover. I did have some cover but never had to prove it.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:

In most of the EU this is not a problem. You may not hunt or own a gun without insurance. This covers any damage you may inflict on third party that be a person or property.

Further you are not allowed to have any employee with out you as an employer insuring your him or her during work.

If this was also the law in Zim the extra costs would automatically be put on the price of the hunt.

Good hunting

Carl Frederik

Regards CF

Carl,

How does it work with visiting hunters from abroad? Does a hunting licence/permit include an insurance portion?

I ask, as I have hunted there, including in Denmark, with a Danish hunting licence, and never had to declare my insurance cover. I did have some cover but never had to prove it.

John,

When you pay the hunting license the insurance is included. A hunting license cost aprox 100 US pr year. I guess it is so cheap because everybody has to have one and hunting accidents are long between.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

..I am not talking about liability in a civil or criminal sense, I am talking about the responsibility each of us has to look after the financial well being of ourselves and our families. Let's forget about a shooting. The PH is in a tree hanging a bait and falls out, breaks his neck and is paralyzed. The responsibility for planning for that possibility -- or failing to plan for that possibility -- is the PH's, not anyone else.
That is the only point I am trying to make. In life bad things happen, we owe it to ourselves and our families to understand that and to provide for that possibility. In the shooting situation, is the client responsible and do they have a moral obligation (and perhaps legal too) to do what they can to assist, absolutely. But that does not relieve the PH and the outfitter from their responsibilities to ensure that regardless of what happens and whether the client acts responsibly or not, that they are adequately provided for.

That about covers it.

A hunting client may well be legally liable for accidental injury or death inflicted on the PH,
however, that does not mean the client has the wealth or means to actually sufficiently cover such liability.
In the abscence of any requirement for client to have compulsory 3rd party insurance coverage for person & property,
If I were a PH/business owner and did not cover myself[& staff] for such a scenario, then I have failed in my responsibility.

This is an area where SCI or DSC could really step up to the plate. If SCI can insure your trophies by paying for replacement hunts, they can surely figure out how to fund and administer a liability insurance product that protects both the client and the PH at a reasonable rate for both.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
This is an area where SCI or DSC could really step up to the plate. If SCI can insure your trophies by paying for replacement hunts, they can surely figure out how to fund and administer a liability insurance product that protects both the client and the PH at a reasonable rate for both.

The last people I am going to trust with something like this is SCI!

I agree Saeed

Saeed and Peter are correct in their sci position, not because sci in untrustworthy but because they are not responsible for us. We are and we need to take that responsibility by managing our own decisions.

quote:

Originally posted by twoseventy:
Saeed and Peter are correct in their sci position, not because sci in untrustworthy but because they are not responsible for us. We are and we need to take that responsibility by managing our own decisions.

Yes but SCI could exert a significant buying power in securing insurance for members at the right price.

SCI is not an insurance broker but I am sure they could broker a very good deal.

I read Saeed's statement as concern for who that insurance would be purchased from and that is understandable.

Gentlemen:

Procuring insurance that covers clients and PH's in many different states and countries is FAR more complex than it sounds on the surface. To sell a insurance contract in a state or country, that carrier has to be admitted to do business in that state or country. Given the myriad of laws and requirements, it is unlikely that a single company could do this. Further, at least in the US, the policy forms have to be approved by the Department of Insurance in every state where the policy will be sold.


Just because an insurance company exists and is theoretically capable of writing such a policy does not mean they can legally write such policies.

Great idea but practically difficult.

I think a better solution is to make both clients and PH's aware of current insurance available and limitations on what it might cover. Perhaps there is some way to fund coverage for the Ph's where the dollars are not pilfered.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Gentlemen:

Procuring insurance that covers clients and PH's in many different states and countries is FAR more complex than it sounds on the surface. To sell a insurance contract in a state or country, that carrier has to be admitted to do business in that state or country. Given the myriad of laws and requirements, it is unlikely that a single company could do this. Further, at least in the US, the policy forms have to be approved by the Department of Insurance in every state where the policy will be sold.


Just because an insurance company exists and is theoretically capable of writing such a policy does not mean they can legally write such policies.

Great idea but practically difficult.

I think a better solution is to make both clients and PH's aware of current insurance available and limitations on what it might cover. Perhaps there is some way to fund coverage for the Ph's where the dollars are not pilfered.

Such policy could include clauses that the guide/PH must abide by laws in the country I would think.

My PL insurance covers me worldwide, I don't see any reason why personal insurance couldn't do the same.'I haven't looked at it but I don't see why not?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Mike

I have to disagree with you there on the below comment

"If you cannot afford to insure yourself from the hazards of your profession (or in the case of a client, your avocation), then perhaps you are in the wrong profession (or pursuing the wrong avocation)."

I have been looking into life insurance that also covers disability here in Zim and on a PH salary I will be able pay the monthly installments but certainly wont be able to live let alone save- thats just the reality of PH salaries in Zim anyway.

I would be paying a premium on the obvious been Hunting, gun handling, Hunting Dangerous game, using a heavy caliber and the fact that I have been injured hunting before raises my premiums further and to top it all off the insurance company puts Zim in the same category as Afghanistan- combine all this and it makes the monthly payments out of reach on a PH salary !!!!!!

That's a decision for the PH to make, but once they make that conscious decision, like all decisions, there are consequences associated with the decision that one must be prepared to accept and deal with. Some have effectively suggested that in the absence of the PH or the outfitter choosing to carry insurance, the client should effectively become the insurer. That is the point I take issue with. Does the client bear responsibility, certainly, but that does not let the PH and outfitter off the hook for their conscious decision to forego insuring the risk and to continue to act as a PH.

Mike,
I agree with you 100% in that we have a responsibility to ourselves and our families, regardless of circumstances. I do feel for Buzz and the other PH's in this dilemma.

To satisfy my own curiosity, I called a good friend that is an insurance agent to check costs on disability insurance. The info I gave him was that I was in a dangerous profession where I could be shot, mauled by a wild animal, run over, fall from trees/cliffs, catch a bad disease, etc. in other words; all sorts of ways to get hurt. I said I wanted a policy for $500,000 that would cover me anywhere, anytime, no matter what, no questions asked, just pay if something happens and I can't work. His quote for someone my age (40) was $500/month. $1,000,000 coverage was almost $1,000/month. He said that policies like this are not normal market policies and have to be underwritten separately and all sorts of surcharges apply. Also if I wanted life insurance on that same amount, the cost would double. These were just quick numbers his computer spit out and he did not shop around among providers but felt they were accurate. He also stated these were an individuals policy costs and not part of a group plan.

I have no idea how these prices compare to what the guys in Zim and other African countries are quoted, but I was shocked. That’s $16/day which is a good chunk out for someone who’s take home is a $100/day and that assumes he is working 365 days a year. If my numbers are anywhere close what they see in Africa, I can see why PH’s choose to roll the dice. Makes me feel very fortunate to have my health, life and AD&D insurance premiums subsidized my company.

Just my personal opinion, but I do think there is something in a PH organization or SCI doing some kind of group plan or such. We do it here with small business & farmers co-op’s and such.

quote:

Originally posted by adamhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Mike

I have to disagree with you there on the below comment

"If you cannot afford to insure yourself from the hazards of your profession (or in the case of a client, your avocation), then perhaps you are in the wrong profession (or pursuing the wrong avocation)."

I have been looking into life insurance that also covers disability here in Zim and on a PH salary I will be able pay the monthly installments but certainly wont be able to live let alone save- thats just the reality of PH salaries in Zim anyway.

I would be paying a premium on the obvious been Hunting, gun handling, Hunting Dangerous game, using a heavy caliber and the fact that I have been injured hunting before raises my premiums further and to top it all off the insurance company puts Zim in the same category as Afghanistan- combine all this and it makes the monthly payments out of reach on a PH salary !!!!!!

That's a decision for the PH to make, but once they make that conscious decision, like all decisions, there are consequences associated with the decision that one must be prepared to accept and deal with. Some have effectively suggested that in the absence of the PH or the outfitter choosing to carry insurance, the client should effectively become the insurer. That is the point I take issue with. Does the client bear responsibility, certainly, but that does not let the PH and outfitter off the hook for their conscious decision to forego insuring the risk and to continue to act as a PH.

Just my personal opinion, but I do think there is something in a PH organization or SCI doing some kind of group plan or such. We do it here with small business & farmers co-op’s and such.

As anyone on this forum knows, Buzz is a friend and the fact that we can have a legitimate difference of opinion in a civil manner is a tribute I think to the quality of the friendship and the mutual respect we have for one another. I respect his view and I am sure he respects mine. So I certainly empathize with PHs in terms of securing such coverage at a reasonable price. I find it curious though that groups like the NRA can offer life insurance, gun insurance and the like, sometimes free in conjunction with a membership, and yet hunting organizations like SOAZ, PHASA or ZPHGA, even SCI or the DSC, cannot figure out a way to offer some reasonable alternative to their members that are professional hunters. It would not need to have a coverage limit of $500K, I am sure that Stu and others would be damn thankful if they had access to a policy that offered them even $50K of coverage. My guess is that the lack of a good organization-based alternative is more a function of a lack of effort and trying than it is unavailability of a commercial product.

This is straight off the NRA website after all of 2 minutes of searching:

Annual members receive $5,000 of Accidental Death and Dismemberment coverage at NO COST to you. The plan covers accidents at, or to and from, an NRA event; and accidents that occur during the use of firearms or hunting equipment while hunting. Insurance must be activated at time of renewal. (Does not include Junior membership.)

Life members receive $10,000 of Accidental Death and Dismemberment coverage at NO COST to you. The plan covers accidents at, or to and from, an NRA event; and accidents that occur during the use of firearms or hunting equipment while hunting. Insurance must be activated at time of upgrade to Life member status

Law Enforcement Officers, that are NRA members, killed in the line of duty will have $25,000 in coverage.

$2,500 of ArmsCare coverage with your NRA membership. This plan covers insured firearms, air guns, bows and arrows against theft, accidental loss, and damage. Insurance must be activated.

For purposes of insurance, NRA members must be current active members of the NRA whose name appears on the NRA membership list. Activation is required.

New and Enhanced insurance coverages through the NRA Endorsed Insurance Programs. Enroll on-line for Life, Health and Accident and Individual Property and Liability insurance or call Toll free 1-877-NRA-3006 (1-877-672-3006.) New Commercial Property Liability Insurance Program for NRA Affiliated Clubs and Business Alliance Members, visit on-line or call Toll Free 1-877-487-5407.

Insurance companies make their living coming up with products to meet consumer demand. If there was the demand from a serious organization for some sort of product, I am confident that the insurance market would fashion an acceptable alternative.

This really does sound like a worthy project for the various professional hunters' organization in the several African nations. Only in numbers can affordable insurance be arranged, I would think.

And to take a page from Saeed regarding SCI, I don't think I would look to the NRA for financial salvation AT ALL. These small $5k-$10k accidental death/dismemberment policies are offered as afterthoughts by credit unions, state hunting associations and other entities as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
This really does sound like a worthy project for the various professional hunters' organization in the several African nations. Only in numbers can affordable insurance be arranged, I would think.

And to take a page from Saeed regarding SCI, I don't think I would look to the NRA for financial salvation AT ALL. These small $5k-$10k accidental death/dismemberment policies are offered as afterthoughts by credit unions, state hunting associations and other entities as well.

I agree, but they do demonstrate that it can be and is being done.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I don't think I would look to the NRA for financial salvation AT ALL. These small $5k-$10k accidental death/dismemberment policies are offered as afterthoughts by credit unions, state hunting associations and other entities as well.

Its a measly token gesture like those tele-marketers who throw in a cheap set of steak knives to get you buy their 'amazing' product.

there are hunting/shooting organisations in the world that manage to offer their indivdual members a
respectable many millions of dollars worth of public liability insurance coverage,...all included within the cost of membership.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I don't think I would look to the NRA for financial salvation AT ALL. These small $5k-$10k accidental death/dismemberment policies are offered as afterthoughts by credit unions, state hunting associations and other entities as well.

Its a measly token gesture like those tele-marketers who throw in a cheap set of steak knives to get you buy their 'amazing' product.

there are hunting/shooting organisations in the world that manage to offer their indivdual members a
respectable many millions of dollars worth of public liability insurance coverage,...all included within the cost of membership.

Can you please name me some of these orgenizations?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I don't think I would look to the NRA for financial salvation AT ALL. These small $5k-$10k accidental death/dismemberment policies are offered as afterthoughts by credit unions, state hunting associations and other entities as well.

Its a measly token gesture like those tele-marketers who throw in a cheap set of steak knives to get you buy their 'amazing' product.

there are hunting/shooting organisations in the world that manage to offer their indivdual members a
respectable many millions of dollars worth of public liability insurance coverage,...all included within the cost of membership.

Can you please name me some of these orgenizations?

all hunting clubs in Australia offer their members full PL insurance for a few dollars. I think this insurance is only within Australia though. They get thus insurance cheap by negotiating as a group and showing the underwriters how few claims there are.

that is no doubt true, but i seriously doubt the coverage runs into the millions of dollars for a few dollars premium as stated

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
that is no doubt true, but i seriously doubt the coverage runs into the millions of dollars for a few dollars premium as stated

doubt all you like but the PL policies here are for $10M minimum. The fact is that claims are rare in the Southern hemisphere and at least in Australia courts have a habit of limiting payouts to something less than $1M per claimant. Vehicle accident claims for instance are legally limited to $700k.

FWIW, BASC (British Association of Shooting & Conservation offer UKP10M worth of free worldwide legal liability cover to members.

Whether that would cover big game hunting I don't know but even if it doesn't, I'd guess additional cover could be bought from the same company.

Membership costs UKP66 per annum.

Saeed, BASC covers my liability for recreation /sporting shooting with its membership fees. No idea if that would cover dangerous game though. BASC are one of three or four organisations that offer it in the UK.
I also have to have a £5,000,000 liability insurance with another company for work related cover for using firearms costing about £350.00.per year. It seems to me that the client would need the recreational insurance and the ph the work related.jc

Stu go's in for his next operations soon so good luck mate.

An email from him over Christmas;

I would just like to update everyone on my progress. It is very slow and still pretty painful, I am still doing intense physio everyday. I will be going back to South Africa in Jan for more operations and I am hoping that these will be the last ones and that my progress will be rapid after that, god willing. I would also like to thank everyone for all the help and support and the donations I have received.
All the kind support has been truly amazing and I am blown away at how the hunting community has come out to help me, some of you who dont even know me. I really do appreciate everything you are all doing for me.

Thanks for everything

Best Regards
Stu Taylor

According to a Moz ph that I spoke with yesterday, Stu will not be able to hunt in 2013. Let`s hope for a comeback next year.

Torbjorn

Mike- I posted earlier- Life insurance is feasible- I have always had good cover - cost me 50% aabove normal because of my profession.

Insurance against loss of income due to injury or disablement owing to animal or client action? Cheepest I could find for A PH was US $27,600P/A. That makes for a 75% increase in the daily rate a good PH in Zim would need to earn just to pay that insurance. Loss of income insurance due to illness or even car accident (far more likely than getting smaked by client or animal) was about half that.- Still not actually doable on what I made.