hi guys and gals I'm heading to Las Vegas for the show and was wondering what the chances of bidding and getting a deal on a hunt would be. Just an average guy with an average pay check but big dreams. Has anyone scored a great hunt at a reasonable price? Would like to hear from the lucky ones.

Thanks in advance.

If you're talking about the evening auctions, forget about it. From what I've seen, they go for about what they're worth and usually more than that. They have some afternoon auctions where things go a little more economically but I never ended up winning any.

I have gone on several safaris compliments of auctions at our local Safari Club International chapter that were smoking deals.

If you are looking for a plains game hunt in South Africa, you may get a steal, but know up front what you are bidding on.

My experience is that a fair number go for less than what they are claimed as being valued at; whether or not that is marked up, I am not sure.

The bigger named DG hunts always seem to go for more than listed value.

One of the common complaints here on AR regarding SCI is that the org does not stand behind the hunt once you buy it- caveat emptor and all that good stuff.

My suggestion is if you are looking for a deal, go decide on what companies you are willing to hunt with, ask them what the offering entails and what, if any additional costs there are- then set a limit on what you are willing to spend on it and bid, but pass when it gets too rich for your blood.

Be aware that these hunts often will be viewed as a loss leader to the outfit- get you out there and then try and get you to shoot something for normal price off the trophy fee schedule.

Make sure you get an idea how much the non included items are (like dip and pack, gun rental/permits, etc.) preferably in writing.

My personal feeling is that I will bid on something that I would be willing to buy, but not something that I would not buy, hoping for a "deal"... of course, I have never won an auction, either...

i have been very lucky at both the evening and day auctions. my first hunt in Africa was 13-14 years ago. it was an evening item that was next to last on the list on the final night. had a retail value of $13,000 and i bought it for $3500. it was a 4 animal plains game hunt, which most high rollers aren't interested in, but it including shoulder mount taxidermy for the 4 animals( which included kudu and eland) as well as shipping of the finished product. i was the only bidder- most people had either left by then or were too drunk to care. the only problem was it started my African addiction. plains game hunts, in particular, generally sell for 30-50% of retail value. just make damn sure the donor has a booth so you can see him BEFORE the auction and at least get a feel for his operation- hopefully make a few phone calls to check references. Plains game hunts generally sell for 25-35% of retail value. the main reason outfitters donate them is that they hope you will get there and decide to shoot other animals off the package( at regular prices)- at the auction prices, their profit is minimal.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Plains game hunts generally sell for 25-35% of retail value. the main reason outfitters donate them is that they hope you will get there and decide to shoot other animals off the package( at regular prices)- at the auction prices, their profit is minimal.

While that was true in previous years, expect that to be different from here on out. They rejected our plainsgame donation because they said it was too saturated and they were looking for different hunts. It makes sense, but sucks for us because we had to just pay a cash donation instead...

Our hunt was a 5 star, 150,000 acre place in RSA with 5 animals a hunter and an observer valued at $12,000 and it usually sold for about $3500. A real steal, but don't expect that to happen this year because they only allowed a handful of plainsgame hunts in RSA to be donated.

Greg

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

One of the common complaints here on AR regarding SCI is that the org does not stand behind the hunt once you buy it- caveat emptor and all that good stuff.

Not exactly right. If there is some major problem that arises before the hunt, SCI will look at it. Once the hunt is done it may be different.

quote:

Originally posted by Greg Brownlee:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Plains game hunts generally sell for 25-35% of retail value. the main reason outfitters donate them is that they hope you will get there and decide to shoot other animals off the package( at regular prices)- at the auction prices, their profit is minimal.

While that was true in previous years, expect that to be different from here on out. They rejected our plainsgame donation because they said it was too saturated and they were looking for different hunts. It makes sense, but sucks for us because we had to just pay a cash donation instead...

Our hunt was a 5 star, 150,000 acre place in RSA with 5 animals a hunter and an observer valued at $12,000 and it usually sold for about $3500. A real steal, but don't expect that to happen this year because they only allowed a handful of plainsgame hunts in RSA to be donated.

Greg

that sucks for you but on the other hand it means they have a helluva lot of plains game hunt donations, considering Namibia, RSA and Zim-i.e., a buyers market. a quick perusal of the auction catalog bears this out.i found 34 plains game hunts available with a quick and dirty search in the SCI auctions catalog. i especially love how you had to make a cash "donation". donation- really??? extortion sounds more accurate. last i checked, a "donation" was something you freely give. not something you have to give to get in the door. maybe it is different in other parts of the world.

Thanks for the quick replies there is great information here and it is appreciated. Would DSC be a better venue or is it much the same. I've heard good things about DSC but the Vegas venue of SCI is attractive for the lady.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

i especially love how you had to make a cash "donation". donation- really??? extortion sounds more accurate. last i checked, a "donation" was something you freely give. not something you have to give to get in the door. maybe it is different in other parts of the world.

My thoughts exactly.

quote:

Originally posted by oddsix:
Thanks for the quick replies there is great information here and it is appreciated. Would DSC be a better venue or is it much the same. I've heard good things about DSC but the Vegas venue of SCI is attractive for the lady.

They both have their benefits for the attendee. To name a few:

DSC - Much friendlier staff working the show (volunteers), very accommodating venue, much cheaper to get into the show each day, a lot of good outfitters and hunting gear, not a "members only" convention like SCI is(though I suggest everyone join DSC).

SCI - More for the wives to do while you browse, better nightlife in Vegas, more exhibitors and stuff to buy than DSC, the best taxidermy you'll see anywhere, and lots of it.

quote:

Originally posted by oddsix:
Thanks for the quick replies there is great information here and it is appreciated. Would DSC be a better venue or is it much the same. I've heard good things about DSC but the Vegas venue of SCI is attractive for the lady.

If pleasing your wife is of paramount importance( and from experience that is a good thing), definitely go to Vegas! if saving money, significant money( entry fee, no membership required, cheaper overall venue) is more important, go to Dallas. taxis alone will eat you alive in Vegas.the donated hunts are essentially the same at both venues- it's the ancillary costs that add up.

quote:

Originally posted by Greg Brownlee:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

i especially love how you had to make a cash "donation". donation- really??? extortion sounds more accurate. last i checked, a "donation" was something you freely give. not something you have to give to get in the door. maybe it is different in other parts of the world.

My thoughts exactly.

According to the dictionary:

DONATION = what one pays voluntarily.
EXTORTION = what one is FORCED to pay.

Of course, according to SCI, it is donations, despite what the dictionary says.

Did Mark Sullivan get kicked out because he refused to pay extortion?

That should get this thread to 11 pages in no time.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Greg Brownlee:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

i especially love how you had to make a cash "donation". donation- really??? extortion sounds more accurate. last i checked, a "donation" was something you freely give. not something you have to give to get in the door. maybe it is different in other parts of the world.

My thoughts exactly.

According to the dictionary:

DONATION = what one pays voluntarily.
EXTORTION = what one is FORCED to pay.

Of course, according to SCI, it is donations, despite what the dictionary says.

maybe Matt G can straighten us out on the difference. or maybe things are reversed in the southern hemisphere

It is what it is, what's it matter to you two??

Any mention of SCI in here sure brings out the anti-SCI trolls. It's like having your fingernails pulled out or a long, slow day in the dentists chair.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Greg Brownlee:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

i especially love how you had to make a cash "donation". donation- really??? extortion sounds more accurate. last i checked, a "donation" was something you freely give. not something you have to give to get in the door. maybe it is different in other parts of the world.

My thoughts exactly.

According to the dictionary:

DONATION = what one pays voluntarily.
EXTORTION = what one is FORCED to pay.

Of course, according to SCI, it is donations, despite what the dictionary says.

maybe Matt G can straighten us out on the difference. or maybe things are reversed in the southern hemisphere

There is a certain aspect of cheerleaders I enjoy - their youth and beauty.

Matt, despite being a cheerleader for SCI, does not qualify in either of these qualities

Oddsix

If you are looking for a deal and are prepared to hunt in extreme heat then I would suggest looking at late season specials which there seems to be a few every year.

HOWEVER BEAR in mind the following AND TAKE NOTE

1/AREAS/OPERATORS THAT HAVE END OF YEAR "DEALS" EVERY YEAR -means that either their marketing sucks or more then likely there has been several failed hunts. Do you want to chance a failed hunt at a reduced cost?

2/SOME AREAS, LIKE OURS, COME END OF YEAR HAS QUOTA LEFT IN "CERTAIN AREAS" OF THE CONCESSION- SOME ARE BETTER THEN OTHERS AND IN OUR CASE LIKE THE "EAST" LATE SEASON BEFORE THE RAINS COME THERE IS NOTHING THERE! MAKE SURE YOU CLARIFY THESE POINTS- you do not want to be stuck in an area where the hunting "was great early season but not sure where the animals are now!!!"""

3/TEMPS IN ZIM ANYWAY CAN BE IN THE 50 C!

If you do the auction thing research your operator well. I hear that some operators will not give hunters that have won their auction the same level of service /care- I find that hard to believe with a reputable operator! Good luck and enjoy the shows!

From a outfitters point of few auctions are something we have to live with at these conventions, some times a auction hunt work out for both parties some times not, it is just part of the cost for us doing business, however It does take away A lot of clients from the convention floor. And most of the hunts go for below market related pricing except for A few.

I have spend many hours at conventions visiting with A potential client only for him to go to the Auction and by A hunt there, hell I don't blame him in most cases It is A steal, It does hurt the operators thou.

quote:

Originally posted by oddsix:
Thanks for the quick replies there is great information here and it is appreciated. Would DSC be a better venue or is it much the same. I've heard good things about DSC but the Vegas venue of SCI is attractive for the lady.

I went to the DSC convention once and wouldn't waste my money doing so again. I didn't think the auctions were any better and there wasn't as much to see as in the SCI venue.

Also, before you bid on anything, look over the auction descriptions and research the outfitter on anything you're thinking of bidding one.

I remember one outfitter that had put an optimistic value on the safari he donated to the auction. The alleged value of the trophies were excessive. When I went to talk to the outfitter in person, there was a 50% discount on trophy fees. In other words, if you won the auction, any trophies you chose to take other than those included would be at inflated prices.

Are the results posted anywhere?

quote:

Originally posted by oddsix:
hi guys and gals I'm heading to Las Vegas for the show and was wondering what the chances of bidding and getting a deal on a hunt would be. Just an average guy with an average pay check but big dreams. Has anyone scored a great hunt at a reasonable price? Would like to hear from the lucky ones.

Thanks in advance.

Read the fine print, these donations are designed to try and make some money to cover the FREE stuff.

Sometimes it's better to just buy the hunt outright, do your homework.

Best of luck

I'll be there at the Hunting Consultants , Vance Corrigan's booth. Pop in for any advice

quote:

Originally posted by Greg Brownlee:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Plains game hunts generally sell for 25-35% of retail value. the main reason outfitters donate them is that they hope you will get there and decide to shoot other animals off the package( at regular prices)- at the auction prices, their profit is minimal.

While that was true in previous years, expect that to be different from here on out. They rejected our plainsgame donation because they said it was too saturated and they were looking for different hunts. It makes sense, but sucks for us because we had to just pay a cash donation instead...

Our hunt was a 5 star, 150,000 acre place in RSA with 5 animals a hunter and an observer valued at $12,000 and it usually sold for about $3500. A real steal, but don't expect that to happen this year because they only allowed a handful of plainsgame hunts in RSA to be donated.

Greg

Greg
PHASA has asked SCI limit their hunt donations as it is saturating the market, my donation was also rejected for the same reason.

But looking at the big picture it means that less hunts will be available, prices will get better and most importantly there will be more people forced to buy legitimate hunts.

I think as an operator it's in our best interest.

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

Read the fine print, these donations are designed to try and make some money to cover the FREE stuff.

Sometimes it's better to just buy the hunt outright, do your homework.

Perhaps for South African hunts - but there are a LOT of hunts that are genuinely offered - with no other hunt costs and no expectation of upgrade for the outfitter.

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

Greg
PHASA has asked SCI limit their hunt donations as it is saturating the market, my donation was also rejected for the same reason.

But looking at the big picture it means that less hunts will be available, prices will get better and most importantly there will be more people forced to buy legitimate hunts.

I think as an operator it's in our best interest.

Why did you offer to donate a hunt if you are not a listed exhibitor?

Matt , please explain your statement "perhaps South African hunts" last time I looked all costs needed to be listed on the auction, Unlike some of the African Countries like Tanzania there are in most cases no charters and licencing fees involved. Witch in most cases are not part of the donation, so sorry Mate I got to disagree with you. happy new year I it is raining like hell in the bushfeld and we are going to party right now!!

oddsix: I can't speak about the SCI auctions, but I have purchased several hunts at DSC and all worked out well. Here is another thought for you...go online and register for the DSC auctions and if you see something you like, bid on it.

Karl

Does DSC use blackmail, like SCI, to force outfitters to pay them with a hunt or cash?

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Matt , please explain your statement "perhaps South African hunts" last time I looked all costs needed to be listed on the auction, Unlike some of the African Countries like Tanzania there are in most cases no charters and licencing fees involved. Witch in most cases are not part of the donation, so sorry Mate I got to disagree with you. happy new year I it is raining like hell in the bushfeld and we are going to party right now!!

You arent disagreeing with me - you are quite right - all costs must be listed. I don't know what Dave was talking about!!

One of my Agents has a double booth and I have donated hunts in the past towards the booth.
Vance Corrigan out of Montana

I have bought two auctions at SCI and they both turned out okay. With that being said I don't think I will do it again. The reason is that although I was treated as a paying customer the fact that I wasn't bothered me enough to make me feel that the savings wasn't worth it. I'm not a terribly demanding person but I felt that I had to let some things slide that I wouldn't have if I was actually paying for the hunt directly. I felt is was a weird dichotomy to have paid money for something but knowing that the company I was with didn't get any of it.

One hunt was great and everything was as it should be. The other hunt could have ended in disaster if it wasn't for the efforts of a young PH.

If you are going to bid on a hunt do it intelligently. Research what hunts interest you and narrow it down to a select few. Go meet the outfitter in person and ask them specific questions about the auction. Don't led them on by pretending that you are buying a hunt. Be up front and honest.

Figure out what a comparable hunt would really cost you and bid accordingly.

I think it is important to remember that you still are going to spend money on a plane ticket, tips , etc and saving a few bucks might
not be worth it when you tally up all the costs involved.

I think it is important to remember the difference between cost and value.

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

Greg
PHASA has asked SCI limit their hunt donations as it is saturating the market, my donation was also rejected for the same reason.

But looking at the big picture it means that less hunts will be available, prices will get better and most importantly there will be more people forced to buy legitimate hunts.

I think as an operator it's in our best interest.

I agree with you, fewer hunts at auction will bring prices up which will make the auctions less attractive so South African hunts booked direct will probably increase. Supply/demand. I'm just saying it was difficult to come up with something last minute to donate so we just paid cash. Next year we're donating a different hunt so it shouldn't be a problem.

Greg

quote:

I felt is was a weird dichotomy to have paid money for something but knowing that the company I was with didn't get any of it.

That is the crux of the matter.

The company can choose to get a rebate.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
The company can choose to get a rebate.

Matt,

Please explain.

Do you guys that are forced to "donate" hunts feel that these ever mature into lasting relations that are maintained with repeat bookings etc?

I feel that it is a loss leader and merely the price of doing business with SCI etc.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Jeff

My experience with donating trips has been mixed. I think what Matt is talking about is most organizations will split the money with the Outfitter. So if a trip sells for 4k each get 2k . As a life member of the RMEF I used to donate trips to them. I would do them on a 50/50 split. Not once did the winning bidder bring another hunter or come on a return trip. (yes over half of them were successful in taking elk)
I no longer donate trips to them and not for that reason, I have a problem with a new board member and Have voiced my opinion very load and clear about it to the powers at be.
Last year I donated a trip to the Eastern Chapter of Wild Sheep, in Lancaster PA. They sold the trip for full price and the day after the auction the winning bidder came to my booth and booked 3 more spots to go along with it. They have another donation from me this year . I also donated a trip to the Midwest Chapter Of Wild Sheep. I couldn't be at their show , but received a phone call 2 days later and they booked a second spot to go along with it. Providing elk and deer hunts in Montana I have nothing to (upcharge) them on. I like the Wild Sheep foundation and I like to donate to them. From a Business standpoint I am hoping that the winning bidder will bring along a few friends. I also Donate these trips because I want to, not because I have to, to have a booth at the show.

There are some good deals to be had at SCI. I bought a buffalo hunt in Moz for about 1/2 price 4 years ago and it was exactly as described. You need to go to the daily auctions and bide your time.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Do you guys that are forced to "donate" hunts feel that these ever mature into lasting relations that are maintained with repeat bookings etc?

I feel that it is a loss leader and merely the price of doing business with SCI etc.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Jeff

+1

Does Sports Afield, Outdoor Life, Peterson's Hunting, and like magazines "blackmail" outfitters into giving them money in return for placing an advertisement in their magazines and do those magazine ads draw outfitters and hunters together into a single concentrated venue in order for potential customers to speak directly with outfitters?

Should SCI just hold the largest hunting show in the world out of "goodness of heart"? It's an expensive undertaking to put on these shows. No one forces any outfitter to attend, nor any hunter for that matter. Displaying at the shows is simply a venue for promoting an outfitter's business. That promotion comes at a price. Not to mention that the convention is a fund raiser for SCI and raising funds is the point!

Blackmail, as Saeed puts it, is where one is given no option. What is it about the SCI convention that makes displaying or not displaying at SCI a no option scenario (as in the case of blackmail)? Saeed, are you saying that an outfitter's company would be destroyed if they do not display at the SCI convention? If so, why is that? Is it that there is no other show anywhere that puts more clients in front of said outfitter and that not being there would severely diminish their ability to sell all hunts for the year? I don't believe that to be the case, but that could explain the "blackmail" statement! Maybe it would be better if SCI called it a fee to display instead of a donation? Would that make it all better? A fee, not a donation? But then again, in the end, displaying at the convention still requires the outfitter to give value of some type in exchange for the value the show returns in the form of placing qualified and interested customers standing in line to speak with and book hunts on the spot!

Saeed, do you have no interest in making accurate statements instead of just inciting the mob? AR bashing of SCI! What a surprise. Same shit, same guys, same arguments, same convention, different year. Nothing new here. And yet, the outfitters STILL have a waiting list to get in and pay the "blackmail" bill.

Todd

You're missing the point entirely or perhaps deliberately.

As I'm sure you know, SCI charge a series of fees for one to exhibit at the convention. X amount per booth + Y for carpeting + Z for electricity etc & those fees, (plus gate fees) more than pay for the running costs of the convention.

The 'donation' is on top of the fees & is compulsory. The more you 'donate' the better location you're liable to get.

Which is why people see the 'donation' as something closer to extortion than 'donation'.

Try adding up the number & value of ´donations' made and ask yourself if it's reasonable or fair for any industry to lose that much money out of it's industry in what is not far short of bribe money under a more diplomatic name.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Does DSC use blackmail, like SCI, to force outfitters to pay them with a hunt or cash?

Saeed: No, DSC does not require either a donation of a hunt or a cash donation, all donations are voluntary.

Karl

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Todd

You're missing the point entirely or perhaps deliberately.

As I'm sure you know, SCI charge a series of fees for one to exhibit at the convention. X amount per booth + Y for carpeting + Z for electricity etc & those fees, (plus gate fees) more than pay for the running costs of the convention.

The 'donation' is on top of the fees & is compulsory. The more you 'donate' the better location you're liable to get.

Which is why people see the 'donation' as something closer to extortion than 'donation'.

Try adding up the number & value of ´donations' made and ask yourself if it's reasonable or fair for any industry to lose that much money out of it's industry in what is not far short of bribe money under a more diplomatic name.

So Steve ... if it's that bad of a deal, and seen as extortion, loosing money beyond the value that is returned in the form of placing qualified and motivated customers in front of the outfitters, what is the purpose of those outfitters continuing to display at the show? Why don't they just walk? Why participate in such a money loosing proposition over and over, year after year? Especially since no one is holding a gun to their head to show up and display at the show?

Yea Steve, I must really be missing something, but I'm willing to listen if you can explain it. A few quesitons:

1) Are outfitters FORCED to exhibit and display at the SCI convention?
2) If the answer to No. 1 is yes, by whom, and under what pretense and what is the consequence of not participating?
3) Would their business be ruined if they don't exhibit and if so, how?
4) Do the outfitters loose money overall when considering the cost vs bookings taken at the show.
5) If the answer to number 4 is yes, why do they continue to exhibit as that sounds like a serious misstep in terms of running a business?
6) Would the outfitters do better financially if they skipped the show and used other methods of promotion for bookings?
7) If the answer to No. 7 is yes, ... well you get the idea!

Sorry, one last question: 8) If you pay Sports Afield, Hunting, or Outdoor Life more money, are you likely to get a larger ad and or better placement in the magazine such as the inside cover or entire back page for your advertisement? Or would that be considered "extortion", possibly "blackmail"!