. . . guess what, I never engaged on this thread to answer your questions . . . perhaps because I could care less. I engaged to respond to your since debunked statements that the SCI booth allocation process is corrupt/illegal, not based on market principles and is not an auction. It is clear that having dug a hole that you are having a hard time climbing out of you are now back to repeating the same rote mantra you have for pages preceding. I frankly have better uses for my time. I will let you have the last word then you can feel like you "won" (but guess what . . . everyone knows the score ).

Mike

Where have I asked you or anyone else to agree with me?

All I've done is (repeatedly) ask the two questions that no-one (including you) seems to be willing or able to answer.

Those two questions being:

Can you tell us how much total profit they made from the last convention & what they did with that profit please?

Or alternatively; can you please tell us the total value of last year's donations & what was done with the money?

In addition, I also asked you personally:

Do YOU think it's reasonable for the info I'm seeking to be kept such a closely guarded secret?

And you lacked the backbone to even answer that!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

Do YOU think it's reasonable for the info I'm seeking to be kept such a closely guarded secret?

I can understand why no one from SCI would want to answer YOUR questions, yes.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

Do YOU think it's reasonable for the info I'm seeking to be kept such a closely guarded secret?

I can understand why no one from SCI would want to answer YOUR questions, yes.

A bit of petty insult creeping in there again Matt but as usual, I'll ignore it & let you carry on making a fool of yourself!

Do you mean yes, you do think it reasonable the info be kept secret?

If so........ why?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I can understand why no one from SCI would want to answer YOUR questions, yes.

A bit of petty insult creeping in there again Matt but as usual, I'll ignore it & let you carry on making a fool of yourself!

Do you mean yes, you do think it reasonable the info be kept secret?

If so........ why?

It isnt public money and you aren't a member appparently - so I guess it is none of your business.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I can understand why no one from SCI would want to answer YOUR questions, yes.

A bit of petty insult creeping in there again Matt but as usual, I'll ignore it & let you carry on making a fool of yourself!

Do you mean yes, you do think it reasonable the info be kept secret?

If so........ why?

It isnt public money and you aren't a member appparently - so I guess it is none of your business.

Matt

I note you still fail to answer the questions & with that attitude, I'd bet you also approve of Governments illegally spying on their own citizens whilst telling them it's for their own good.



Is now a good time for me to point out that Saeed is a life member & not even he can get the answers to such questions!......... So as arrogant as your reply is, it's nothing more than a cop out.

The only time a secret is kept so closely is when there's something to hide......

Steve,

One more time, all the "secrets" you seek are easily and publicly available on the SCI website. Please see ALL of the below.

As you must know the SCI is not an "Africa" centered organization, nor is it a "conservation" organization, it is an Advocate for hunting. {The SCIF is funded, mostly, from the SCI funds which are used in conservation efforts.}

Not all the money collected at the show comes from African outfitters. In the top 20 "points" List African outfitters are a minority.

Form990

Financial Statement

SCI Foundation

SCI Mission

I hope this will assist you.

Les

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:
Steve,

One more time, all the "secrets" you seek are easily and publicly available on the SCI website. Please see ALL of the below.

As you must know the SCI is not an "Africa" centered organization, nor is it a "conservation" organization, it is an Advocate for hunting. {The SCIF is funded, mostly, from the SCI funds which are used in conservation efforts.}

Not all the money collected at the show comes from African outfitters. In the top 20 "points" List African outfitters are a minority.

Form990

Financial Statement

SCI Foundation

SCI Mission

I hope this will assist you.

Les

Les

I thank you for your polite & well reasoned reply (haven't seen many of those here) & I'll take a close look at the documents but a quick first perusal of the info doesn't seem to have ALL of the particular figures I'm after.

I really don't particularly care how much overall profit they make or what their expenditure is etc. (although it would be interesting to know)........ but what I'd REALLY like to know most is the total value of donations, how much is raised from them & what is done with the money.

Thanks again for your reply.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I thank you for your polite & well reasoned reply (haven't seen many of those here)

You have over the years, but many of us (myself included) don't like beating our heads into a wall.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by BrettAKSCI:


You have over the years, but many of us (myself included) don't like beating our heads into a wall.

Brett

I was referring to this particular thread.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by BrettAKSCI:


You have over the years, but many of us (myself included) don't like beating our heads into a wall.

Brett

I was referring to this particular thread. :roll eyes:

Hence why you don't get many on this particular thread. Most of us stopped over the years.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
It isnt public money and you aren't a member appparently - so I guess it is none of your business.

Matt

I note you still fail to answer the questions & with that attitude, I'd bet you also approve of Governments illegally spying on their own citizens whilst telling them it's for their own good.



Is now a good time for me to point out that Saeed is a life member & not even he can get the answers to such questions!......... So as arrogant as your reply is, it's nothing more than a cop out.

The only time a secret is kept so closely is when there's something to hide......

I am fully aware the Saeed is a member - and there are ways and means for him to get information that he seeks. Attending a convention and meeting with the people involved would be a good start. The convention is a whole lot more than African outfitters selling hunts - that is why it is called a convention.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
It isnt public money and you aren't a member appparently - so I guess it is none of your business.

Matt

I note you still fail to answer the questions & with that attitude, I'd bet you also approve of Governments illegally spying on their own citizens whilst telling them it's for their own good.



Is now a good time for me to point out that Saeed is a life member & not even he can get the answers to such questions!......... So as arrogant as your reply is, it's nothing more than a cop out.

The only time a secret is kept so closely is when there's something to hide......

I am fully aware the Saeed is a member - and there are ways and means for him to get information that he seeks. Attending a convention and meeting with the people involved would be a good start. The convention is a whole lot more than African outfitters selling hunts - that is why it is called a convention.

Matt,

You are member too, so can you please point me to ANY link where SCI explains where all the money they claim to spend on African conservation is?

All we hear that they are spending millions, which great, but can someone please tells on what is it being spent?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
It isnt public money and you aren't a member appparently - so I guess it is none of your business.

Matt

I note you still fail to answer the questions & with that attitude, I'd bet you also approve of Governments illegally spying on their own citizens whilst telling them it's for their own good.



Is now a good time for me to point out that Saeed is a life member & not even he can get the answers to such questions!......... So as arrogant as your reply is, it's nothing more than a cop out.

The only time a secret is kept so closely is when there's something to hide......

I am fully aware the Saeed is a member - and there are ways and means for him to get information that he seeks. Attending a convention and meeting with the people involved would be a good start. The convention is a whole lot more than African outfitters selling hunts - that is why it is called a convention.

Matt,

You are member too, so can you please point me to ANY link where SCI explains where all the money they claim to spend on African conservation is?

All we hear that they are spending millions, which great, but can someone please tells on what is it being spent?

They spend all their money to fund Chinese elephant poachers. Now go on your way happily and end this circular debate.

Brett

Heck Saeed,

In your case it would actually be pretty easy to do, albeit more of your time than you might wish...

Start a SCI chapter in Dubai, get elected as chair, and go and sit in the important meetings where this is discussed. Then you could disclose what you wished.

Again, I expect a lot of the SCI workings are related to two things related to money. I am not important enough to get there and see, but it seems logical (and simple...)

They are spending a lot of money and don't want to have (metaphorically) to constantly explain to Fred why Sally got more dough;

Also, SCI is a US company which means they have to deal with US law about libel/slander and damages. Since in the US, you are innocent until proven guilty if SCI pronounces an action against some business interest (like OOA) and then no court proof comes forward (usually like a settlement with a nondisclosure) then other members of the business interest could sue for damages from SCI. Pretty unlikely that SCI would lose, but no one wants to be tied up and spend money on lawyers for one's recreational pursuits. Kind of despicable, but it passes Occam's Razor for why they haven't cleaned up the ethics committee mess despite several folks saying they were going to do something.

I really find it unlikely that as many folks as are involved in SCI at a high level could actually pull off any significant conspiracy; especially given that the animal rightists would be looking for it like crazy (and we all know how bound by decency those lot are...)

Having taken a look at those docs Les posted, I'm not able to find the figures I was after but they're so bloody complicated, that's no real surprise....... More than anything, I'd still be VERY interested to know the total value of the donations, how much the auctions raise and what happens to that money and still don't understand why it's such a secret.

One thing I have to admire about SCI though is that they somehow managed to get tax exemption and anyone who can do that for such an organisation must be a bloody genius!

I have done a google search, and got one article by SCI that states they have paid $1.1 million to African conservation since 2007.

Of course, there is no detail of where that money gone.

OK Steve and Saeed. Here is the "official" answer to your questions of how much profit did SCI make at last years convention and where did they spend it?

This info is from the "official" SCI accountant on all such matters.

The 2013 SCI Convention produced $10,156,589.93 in total profits and was spent for the most part on Booze, Women, and unauthorized hunts for Board Members, the rest was totally wasted!!

This pretty much sums up the relevancy of this thread and hopefully everyone is now satisfied and can go on to more important matters. Actually any other matter would be more important.

Larry Sellers (International) Life Member
Soon to be DSC Member

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
OK Steve and Saeed. Here is the "official" answer to your questions of how much profit did SCI make at last years convention and where did they spend it?

This info is from the "official" SCI accountant on all such matters.

The 2013 SCI Convention produced $10,156,589.93 in total profits and was spent for the most part on Booze, Women, and unauthorized hunts for Board Members, the rest was totally wasted!!

This pretty much sums up the relevancy of this thread and hopefully everyone is now satisfied and can go on to more important matters. Actually any other matter would be more important.

Larry Sellers (International) Life Member
Soon to be DSC Member

So the sum total of 4 pages is that none of the $CI cheerleading sheeple who largely seem to be big on ducking the issue & clouding the debate with petty insults & childish innuendo are unable or unwilling to give the relevant info on how much the convention takes out of the hunting industry in the form of 'donations', how much they make from auctioning those 'donations' or what they do with that money......(To say nothing about their marked lack of understanding of the English language) which says a lot about the organisation & perhaps about some of the individual members.

Steve,

While I'm not sure that Larry has the distribution of funds exactly right I do agree that you [guys] seem to be flogging this poor dead horse with no goal in sight.

Your quest for the amount of donations does not appear to be obviously available but a little guess work would indicate that the total is a minority share of the income.[since the base rental is $20 per sq. ft.] And it's really all just "space rent" anyway, given at the choice of the donor. [They are all given a choice of dollars or donation in lieu].

So really what are you driving at? Missing money? Really? With the IRS looking for every penny they can get?

The amount of money they have to spend on activities each year [after their funding of the SCIF where the conservation work is done] is puny, pitiful, compared to the other hunting and shooting groups in the US. [I suspect there are individuals here on AR that make more each year than SCI has to spend each year.]

As for spending in Africa. A look at the list of top 250 exhibitors on the "points list" shows maybe 20% from Africa, and most of them at the lower end of the list. [with the continued exception of Rann, Swanepoel, and TGT] So really how much "reinvestment" can you expect from the modest amounts of money available every year, There are other places represented, and it is a US oriented group. The fact is that they DO spend a share of the conservation money in Africa as the SCIF site well documents.

As has been said before and continuously; some have determined that exhibiting there is worth the cost, some have not and do not. It's really their choice either way, and I doubt very much that the amount of money "reinvested" is a factor, at all.

I hope you will spend as much time as needed on the above noted documents to see the likelihood that there is no secret conspiracy, and there really is not that much money to spread over 6 continents.

Best Regards

Les

Les

No my friend. I'm certainly not suggesting anyone is pocketing the money at all.

Having done a few conventions, I well know the SCI one is one of the best places to go to view a large collection of expensive gold Rolexes & even more expensive trophy wives. The last thing many of those guys need is more money....... more good taste perhaps, but not more money!

The main things I'd like to know are:

How much money the 'donation' scheme costs the hunting industry, particularly the African hunting industry every year.

How much SCI makes from auctioning those 'donations'?

What they do with the money?

The reason I want to know those things is because I think it's:

A) One of the reasons hunting (particularly African) safaris are as expensive as they are.

B) Extremely unhealthy for the industry.

C) Extremely unhealthy for the majority of hunters.

D) Unfair that SCI take so much money from an industry that can ill afford it.

I don't have a problem with SCI making money & in fact, I rather admire their acumen (especially in getting the tax exempt status!) but do on the other hand feel they're rather tearing the arse out of the hunting industry, particularly the African hunting industry & even more so when they appear to give so little back.

And that's why I think the 'donation' scheme is so bloody unfair.

I'll add that the conventions are worth attending for most of the exhibitors most of the time but just think how much better it'd be for all exhibitors & hunters if the 'donation' scheme did not exist....... The only losers would be SCI themselves & they wouldn't lose money on the convention, they'd just make less & I reckon they can afford that without any problems at all.

I'll repeat that I don't & never have suggested anyone has their fingers in the till but will say, I rather suspect those figures I mention are deliberately kept quiet because they prefer not to publicise what I suspect is a very unreasonable profit margin.

Not that it makes any difference and I didn't read all of this, but truly evaluating "profits: is quite some work. As an exec I could allow some latitude in how profits may be represented on a balance sheet or a P&L. The cash flows can be what counts. If they are taking in monies and spending monies, whether every shilling goes to Africa or to other places, is what they are about. They probably don't purport to spend every dollar they take in either as they have long term projects I suspect.

But it is a bit like the NRA. They don't do everything we want them to, and they don't fight every battle, but we are better with their efforts than without.

TexKD, AMEN!

quote:

Originally posted by TexKD:
They don't do everything we want them to, and they don't fight every battle, but we are better with their efforts than without.

I have to agree and say organizations like PHASA need the same kind of recognition. They are doing something.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

D) Unfair that SCI take so much money from an industry that can ill afford it.

So where do you suspect this 'taken' money goes?

This is not a corporation that pays dividends to shareholders. There are no shareholders. The money is distributed to projects; as the elected leaders determine.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

D) Unfair that SCI take so much money from an industry that can ill afford it.

So where do you suspect this 'taken' money goes?

This is not a corporation that pays dividends to shareholders. There are no shareholders. The money is distributed to projects; as the elected leaders determine.

If I knew that, I wouldn't be asking would I?

The money could be going to projects which is why I also asked where it went but it could equally be going to all kinds of other things such as pensions, cars and pretty much anything else anyone can think of as well.

As Saeed quite rightly points out, there isn't much evidence of much of it (compared to donation amount) being spent in Africa........ and if not Africa then it's not unreasonable to wonder where and on what?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
OK Steve and Saeed. Here is the "official" answer to your questions of how much profit did SCI make at last years convention and where did they spend it?

This info is from the "official" SCI accountant on all such matters.

The 2013 SCI Convention produced $10,156,589.93 in total profits and was spent for the most part on Booze, Women, and unauthorized hunts for Board Members, the rest was totally wasted!!

This pretty much sums up the relevancy of this thread and hopefully everyone is now satisfied and can go on to more important matters. Actually any other matter would be more important.

Larry Sellers (International) Life Member
Soon to be DSC Member

So the sum total of 4 pages is that none of the $CI cheerleading sheeple who largely seem to be big on ducking the issue & clouding the debate with petty insults & childish innuendo are unable or unwilling to give the relevant info on how much the convention takes out of the hunting industry in the form of 'donations', how much they make from auctioning those 'donations' or what they do with that money......(To say nothing about their marked lack of understanding of the English language) which says a lot about the organisation & perhaps about some of the individual members.

Steve,

May be we should not be hard on our friends who blindly suphttps://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/122101325/m/951100671ort SCI.

May be they are in the exact same position we are in.

They cannot find the relevant information!!

Because if they were able to, we would have seen it here already.

Saeed

The link doesn't work for me but I'm sure I can more or less guess what it says.

I'm sure you're right they don't know either........ which is why I made the reference to '$CI sheeple'.

The idea that they don't know & don't care that they don't know & then get all defensive because of that is almost as worrying as the issue itself!

It really is too baaaaaaaaad the sheeple can be that brainwashed in such a manner!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Saeed

The link doesn't work for me but I'm sure I can more or less guess what it says.

I'm sure you're right they don't know either........ which is why I made the reference to '$CI sheeple'.

The idea that they don't know & don't care that they don't know & then get all defensive because of that is almost as worrying as the issue itself!

It really is too baaaaaaaaad the sheeple can be that brainwashed in such a manner!

Condescending.... no wonder you dont get replies. You are a hypocrite too - accusing oothers of insulting you and yet you come out with this rubbish.

Soooooooo, you're not too big on humour then Matt?



Humour aside, I think the sheeple reference is perfectly valid....... You & other cheerleaders do indeed seem not to know where the money goes & what's more, you don't care that you don't know where the money goes & that to me is typical sheeple attitude.

Definition of Sheeple

Another definition of Sheeple

I'd say those definitions fit pretty much exactly!

Oh & hey, if you can't take it, you shouldn't be dishing it out!