Back to the original question, I went on my first and only hunts in Africa from the local SCI banquet auction. I bought two hunts at great prices. I did not know anything about the outfitters, but I blame beer and whiskey (maybe the hot gals running around soliciting bids) for the purchases.

I did both hunts during one trip to RSA. I went with my father and we added days and animals to each trip. I was told combining trips was not kosher, but I didn't know why. Between the two hunts, I believe we took 16 animals. Todd was a booking agent for the second outfitter. We had not heard from the second outfitter to confirm pickup and transfer from OR Tambo to the hunting area. Todd helped out. We had a great time.

My father didn't get along with the first outfitter, as they were both alpha males who wouldn't give an inch. I, however, enjoyed when we would go into the bush together. The second hunt was also great. The PH (a cousin of the outfitters) busted his tail to get me in front of a trophy kudu bull. he even took me out on the morning of a "travelling day" to hunt for one. If allowed, his name is Paul Brits of Africa Motsomi. A good cat.

There can be good deals on PG hunts at auction. NA hunts seemed to fetch fair market value. Please do add days or animals to the hunts you might buy at auction.

I DO more business at the SCI show then all my other shows put together, so yes You have to donate and get points to end with A better booth placement and honestly I do not know what they are doing with all the cash and what there profit is but they are getting the buyers in front of the outfitters, some years are better than others And I have find that I do better in Reno than in Vegas but that might just be A coincidence, I will keep on supporting SCI. If a OUTFITTER DONT DO BUSSINESS AT THAT SHOW Get the hell out it sure is expensive!! But for now I am staying, happy hunting guys and good luck to all the outfitters for the show season may it be the best one ever. Cheers Phillip

Thank you Phillip-

Finally words from an actual "outfitter", Matt Graham is also one by the way, that tells it exactly as it is. He/they are people/outfitters who ACTUALLY participate in the SCI Show, unlike some who sit on the sidelines and whine and bitch from afar.

As said "NO Outfitter" is forced to attend SCI or any other Show. It's their choice alone to determine if it is "profitable" for their operation and application. ALL shows have a fee structure, different ways to make their Show successful and stay out of the red as well. How each organization accomplishes this "fee structure" is "strictly" their business. SCI and DSC shows are for the most part "fundraisers" so they have the funds to continue to do all the groundwork and help fend off those who would take our hunting away. Since it seems some of the "hunters", especially around here, would rather spend their time bashing each other, I for one applaud and support the likes of SCI and DSC and truly thank them for their efforts. If it were not for the likes of these groups, we as hunters would most likely already be NON HUNTERS because of out selfish actions and motives.

No organization is "mandated" to spend X amount of dollars in Africa or anywhere else for that matter. If you don't like where the dollars of a specific organization are spent, simply don't contribute to it. Whining, bitching, and dividing us hunters while sitting on the sidelines is not the answer to any of this.

Thanks again Phillip and Matt for letting us know how "it really is".

Larry Sellers
SCI (International) Life Member
Soon to be DSC Member

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
I DO more business at the SCI show then all my other shows put together, so yes You have to donate and get points to end with A better booth placement and honestly I do not know what they are doing with all the cash and what there profit is but they are getting the buyers in front of the outfitters, some years are better than others And I have find that I do better in Reno than in Vegas but that might just be A coincidence, I will keep on supporting SCI. If a OUTFITTER DONT DO BUSSINESS AT THAT SHOW Get the hell out it sure is expensive!! But for now I am staying, happy hunting guys and good luck to all the outfitters for the show season may it be the best one ever. Cheers Phillip

Larry

As you seem to think there's nothing wrong with the system as it is & as you're a life member perhaps you can answer the question I keep asking which is: "can you tell us how much total profit they made from the last convention & what they did with that profit please?"

Alternatively, can you please tell us the total value of last year's donations & what was done with the money?

Going back to those figures I mentioned: I notice the 1st hunt donation HERE is worth US$67800 & there are several others over US$30000 on the first page alone.

Working on those (guesstimated) figure of 4000 donations but with a guesstimated average value of US$15000 each, which incidentally is lower than some of our own members have donated, that total goes up to US$60M.

With such (possible) obscene amounts of money involved, surely it's not unreasonable for people to wonder where that money goes is it?

And surely there's no reason for that info to be kept a secret if there's nothing to hide........... is there?

BTW, The last thing Matt does is "tell it as it is" because he's repeatedly ducked that same question I've just asked you & which I wouldn't be in the least surprised to find you ducking also.

You see Steve, that's where we are different and I guess will never agree. So you can put me in "ducking category" if you like. I simply DON'T CARE or worry about HOW MUCH money SCI and DSC makes or where they spend it. I simply focus on the GOOD BOTH groups are doing for us hunters. It's THEIR money that they make from willing and able contributors so they can spend it as they like. No one is "blackmailing", "extorting", "manipulating", "coercing" or "forcing" their individual contributors in any form or fashion. It's just good folks contributing to who they like and choose to support and exhibitors choosing what's best for their business.

My suggestion is if you would like to know where each and every $$ that hunting support groups spend, join, participate in their activities, become a member of their management team and find out this information from the inside.

Larry Sellers
SCI (International) Life Member
Soon to be DSC Member

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Larry

As you seem to think there's nothing wrong with the system as it is & as you're a life member perhaps you can answer the question I keep asking which is: "can you tell us how much total profit they made from the last convention & what they did with that profit please?"

Alternatively, can you please tell us the total value of last year's donations & what was done with the money?

Going back to those figures I mentioned: I notice the 1st hunt donation HERE is worth US$67800 & there are several others over US$30000 on the first page alone.

Working on those (guesstimated) figure of 4000 donations but with a guesstimated average value of US$15000 each, which incidentally is lower than some of our own members have donated, that total goes up to US$60M.

With such (possible) obscene amounts of money involved, surely it's not unreasonable for people to wonder where that money goes is it?

And surely there's no reason for that info to be kept a secret if there's nothing to hide........... is there?

BTW, The last thing Matt does is "tell it as it is" because he's repeatedly ducked that same question I've just asked you & which I wouldn't be in the least surprised to find you ducking also.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Steve,

I have been asking this for many years.

I would like someone to points me to any place that shows how much SCXI has actually paid to African conservation.

I don't want to hears that SCI has paid X amount. What I want to see DETAILS of where that money has gone.

I have actually try a google search, and came up with very little.

SCI always keeps telling us they have paid millions - where does the money go?

Saeed and all,
I dropped my SCI membership. I upted my support for DSC because of this. Further I support Boone and Crockett.

I managed a large wildlife art show for a number of years. We charged for booth space and a commission on all sales. We handled all sales and paid the artists when they left the show. We handled the bad checks and credit card issues.

We donated 80% of our money to various conservatons projects in Oklahoma and required an accounting of how our money was spent. We used the remained 20% to host the show each year.

My issue with SCI is the same as yours. Why buy yourself a trophy or a medal for shooting an animal? This self aggrandizement is bizarre to me. It is like having a shelf full of participation trophies that kids get for playing a sport. They mean NOTHING!

I cannot buy into allowing high fence anything being considered a trophy. It is not and never can be. I have shot in a high fence area. It is not real hunting as there is little chance for failure.

Anyway. I am not anti-SCI. I just do not agree with their mission or what they are doing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
You see Steve, that's where we are different and I guess will never agree. So you can put me in "ducking category" if you like. I simply DON'T CARE or worry about HOW MUCH money SCI and DSC makes or where they spend it. I simply focus on the GOOD BOTH groups are doing for us hunters. It's THEIR money that they make from willing and able contributors so they can spend it as they like. No one is "blackmailing", "extorting", "manipulating", "coercing" or "forcing" their individual contributors in any form or fashion. It's just good folks contributing to who they like and choose to support and exhibitors choosing what's best for their business.

My suggestion is if you would like to know where each and every $$ that hunting support groups spend, join, participate in their activities, become a member of their management team and find out this information from the inside.

Larry Sellers
SCI (International) Life Member
Soon to be DSC Member



Larry

OK...... so by your own admission, you're also ducking the question then.

I'm astounded that so many presumably intelligent & astute people simply don't care that the association to which they belong & so keenly support are taking in many MILLIONS of USD every year & apparently not telling anyone what they do with it & they not only don't seem to know or care where it goes but actively support the secrecy!

Thanks for your suggestion that I join the association & become a member of a management team but I was a member some/many years ago & left because I wasn't keen on them even then & I sure as hell wouldn't re-join now if only because they seem to be more secretive about their finances than the Mafia......... which perhaps takes us back to the debate of whether the 'donation' scheme is really a donation or extortion!

You blokes are a helluva lot more trusting than I am!

One last thing Steve and I am over and out? MOST all organizations whether, Clubs, Businesses, Charities, Unions, Governments, you get the picture, DO NOT list every penny they make and spend to the folks here on AR or anywhere else for that matter. Just doesn't happen, so as I said, don't really worry that much about it. If you want to worry and complain go for it. I personally don't want or need a "Certified Public Accountant", balance sheet on SCI or anyone else. I can see with my own two eyes that they are leading the parade against evil anti hunting groups, good enough for me. See ya.

Larry Sellers
SCI (International) Life Member
Soon to be DSC Member

Obviously lots of folks "trust SCI and DSC" enough to support their efforts. I certainly trust these two groups a lot more than MY current Government.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
One last thing Steve and I am over and out? MOST all organizations whether, Clubs, Businesses, Charities, Unions, Governments, you get the picture, DO NOT list every penny they make and spend to the folks here on AR or anywhere else for that matter. Just doesn't happen, so as I said, don't really worry that much about it. If you want to worry and complain go for it. I personally don't want or need a "Certified Public Accountant", balance sheet on SCI or anyone else. I can see with my own two eyes that they are leading the parade against evil anti hunting groups, good enough for me. See ya.

Larry Sellers
SCI (International) Life Member
Soon to be DSC Member

Obviously lots of folks "trust SCI and DSC" enough to support their efforts. I certainly trust these two groups a lot more than MY current Government.

Larry,

Many do just that & I'd have thought that as $CI are a registered Corporation, they'd be bound by law to do so..... but perhaps I'm wrong in that.

HERE is an example of how it's done this particular example records EVERY PENNY spent since 1981 so if they can do it, why can't & why don't $CI do the same?

I'm also not asking for ALL their accounts...... Just the ones about the 'donations' & I don't understand why it should be such a BIG secret!

Unless of course there's something to hide...........

HERE & HERE are other examples & I'm sure I can find plenty of others to prove my point if necessary!

Steve, without too much effort, I could use the "find" function of this forum, and link us to an almost exact, "word for word" discussion of this same topic from last year, just before the show season began. And the funny thing is, the players are the same as well! You, me, Saeed, Matt, Larry, etc. Bla, bla, bla ... and it'll be the same next year just prior to the show season.

The fact is, you and Saeed asked about where SCI is using the money previously and I actually did a little research and found that it's pretty easy to dig up the projects SCI is working on. I've not been as active on the local chapter board this year so I'm a little more out of the loop at the present time, but I specifically remember reporting on a couple of legal battles SCI was fighting at the time. Specifically, the issue for American hunters and the polar bear as well as fighting the antis efforts in Montana to stop the wolf season. Those subjects were found with very little effort of looking at SCI's efforts. In the case of the wolf hunting, SCI has been at the forefront of fighting the antis and they have made some good progress on that front. On the polar bear, obviously, we lost on the uplisting, but SCI has been fighting for an exemption to allow import of the polar bear trophies that were taken prior to uplisting and are now being held in limbo. Again, just a couple of small examples and I'm sure, if you are really that interested, you can find more examples readily.

Many want to see SCI do more in terms of conservation projects on the ground. But that isn't what SCI does primarily. They are primarily an advocacy organization. A lobbyist if you will. Think NRA-ILA. Projects on the ground are important, but so are fighting legal battles on behalf of hunters. Does that statement mean that I don't see room for improvement? Hell no. In fact, I'm a bit disturbed as to why SCI refused to sign onto the "Huntable Male Lion Definition". I'm especially disturbed about it if the real reason for refusal to sign on is simply a protest against DSC signing on first. I think the position of fighting the battle AFTER it's lost on the Lion issue is misguided. But, overall, I support SCI's efforts.

Now, about these discussions, rest assured, I have no misunderstandings as you and Saeed have accused me of. But I've tried to put things into simple terms of profit and loss for the outfitters in their decision to participate in exhibiting at the shows or not. To me, as a businessman, that's where the rubber meets the road. Does spending the money, in whatever form you want to put it, being cash or hunt donation, and whatever you want to call it, fee or donation, does it make money to do so. If no, don't do it. If yes, get on with it.

But it's much more complex than that. You see, you and Saeed simply want to reduce the argument to how it affects the outfitters and nothing more. The problem is that the issue is really 3 pronged. It's supposed to strike a beneficial balance among all three aspects of the show. That is the organization itself, the outfitters, and the client/attendees. If it's not balanced, none of the three are likely to continue participating.

The client/attendees want to meet personally with outfitters. Many travel to the show specifically to bid on auction hunts. I know from putting together our local chapter fund raiser, that the NO. 1 driving force that puts client/attendees into the room are the auction hunts. So, somehow, getting those hunts onto the auction block has to be encouraged. SCI has their way of doing that. It's not extortion. Extortion would be if the outfitter was told it will be X amount of money to exhibit, then AFTER they have traveled across 1/2 of the world to get here, brought their booth equipment, set up and were about to open for business, the organization came to them and said, "give us more as in the form of cash or a hunt or else we'll confiscate your equipment and not allow you to participate". That would be illegal, immoral, and extortion. That's not the deal. The outfitters know the price of admission prior to coming to the show. OK, so that's how the show benefits the client/attendee. By putting the outfitters in one place so that they can shop around and be offered the chance to buy a hunt at a discount.

The outfitters are benefitted by the fact that the show is the single most effective method of actually putting well qualified clients in front of their booth. Whether or not they can close the sale at that point is up to them. Do they have the quality areas offering quality animals, quality guns, equipment, etc. And do they have effective salesmen making the pitch? You see, for the past several years, our local chapter also had a mini show with about 50 to 70 exhibitors. This show was held on the floor of BassPro in Grapevine Texas. That store gets about 15,000 to 20,000 customers in the doors each weekend. You couldn't enter the store without passing through the halls of our show. Some of the exhibitors put their displays out then sat back in a corner and hid while others were out in front of the table barking at each passerby. You can guess who did the best and who faltered. Even at that, let's get back to the issue of qualified customers in front of the outfitters. Even with 15,000 to 20,000 people walking the halls over Saturday and Sunday, let's face it, the family of 4 strolling thru the store between being out for a Wataburger lunch and just killing time before the 2:00pm matinee show starts in the mall next door, really isn't the guy who is serious about purchasing an elephant bull / trophy buff combo!! But what you get in front of the outfitter booths in Dallas at the DSC show as well as Vegas / Reno for the SCI show, IS that guy looking to book the hunt just described.

Then you have the organization itself. Yes, they do advocate on behalf of hunters. They win some, they loose some. They take positions many of us support, and they take positions many of us have issue with. But overall, personally, I believe in what they do. That being said, the show is a FUNDRAISER!! It's where SCI and DSC gain the vast majority of their working capital for the year. I simply do not begrudge that fact! Period.

Steve, you can have the last word now as it's very clear that you're having a grand ole time amusing yourself in "proving" whatever it is you think you're "proving". I like the fact that you are laughing it up with all of the . But for me, I'm done trying to break down a 3 pronged Win/Win/Win into a discussion of how it can be made to sacrifice the organization and client/attendees in order to make it a one way beneficial event for the outfitters. But even with all of the bla, bla, bla, spoken here, I simply can't get over the fact that there is an ever increasing list of outfitters/exhibitors that are waiting to get onto the floor, and that the show is ever increasing in size to the point that it has been moved to a much larger venue in a much larger town, and is now large enough that it requires 2 floors to get all the exhibitors a spot, and that there is STILL yet an INCREASING waiting list even with 2 floors, and that even though many complain about 2 floors, adding a 3rd floor could get yet more and more exhibitors on the floor, etc., etc. In other words, as bad as you and Saeed are painting the SCI convention picture to be for outfitters, the show is growing with more and more outfitters wanting in, and most of the ones that are there keep coming back each year to be "extorted" as you put it. Could it be they just like the abuse? Or is it that they find the show to be the best value around for selling their quota/wares/services, etc. Even if all quota is sold out a couple of weeks earlier at DSC, the SCI show still keeps those well qualified contacts fresh.

Adios Muchachos! I'm out of this discussion for good!

I'm not going to take a pro or anti SCI or convention donation position here but rather point out that one who is interested can find out financial information about both SCI and the SCI Foundation on the SCI website.

SCI is a 501(c)(4) Social Welfare Organization and SCIF is a 501(c)(3) Charitable Organization.

Copies of SCI's audited financials and 990 Tax Returns are available after you log in to their website and click on "Committee Tools" and then "SCI Resource Materials". The most recent information is for the fiscal year ended June 30th, 2012.

SCIF's information is available by clicking the link on the SCI website to SCIF and going to the appropriate section (Forgotten the exact steps but it was relatively straightforward when on the website).

According to the 2012 Financials, the gross revenue from the convention was $14,664,822. SCI also donated $3,506,000 to SCIF which was listed as a convention expense.

According to the website, the basic reason there is an SCI (501(c)(4) Social Welfare Organization) and a SCIF (501(c)(3) Charitable Organization) is that SCI can participate in political lobbying whilst SCIF is severely limited in the amount of political lobbying that can be done.

The main point of this post is to provide the information of where financial information about both SCI and SCIF can be found for anyone who is interested in looking it up themselves, not to take a pro or anti SCI or donation policy stance.

Now back to more important things like working to pay for the next hunt.

Todd

fine words but all intended to cloud the issue rather than answer the question(s).

The question I keep asking is can you tell us how much total profit they made from the last convention & what they did with that profit please?

Or alternatively; can you please tell us the total value of last year's donations & what was done with the money?

The research I've been able to do indicates that $CI should (because they're a Corporation) present details of such income etc and yet none or you $CI $uperfans seem to be able to direct us to that information...... and I wonder why?

I've even proved how other organisations and even Govts are able and willing to publish such details when the $uperfans have told me it doesn't happen.

Yes, we have discussed it (several times) before and on every occasion, people have ducked that same question in exactly the same way but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop asking it.

Jaglav

You must have posted as I was typing but if you know the way around the website can you perhaps tell us the answers to the questions and maybe provide links?

Interesting what you say about what SCI is because the last time I looked, their constitution said they were a corporation. - Maybe something has changed there or maybe both descriptions apply....... I don't know anywhere near enough about US company law to comment beyond that but perhaps someone else does?

"I Don't know anywhere enough about US company law to comment beyond that but perhaps someone else does?" BINGO, WE HAVE A WINNER!!! Steve my friend, you just made your total point on this discussion.

It has now been shown EXACTLY how to reference and find ALL the information you and Saeed have been begging for. Check it out and PLEASE give us a full report when you get the chance.

**** Check post above to see instructions.

To the subject of the original post. I have purchased a total of one auction hunts to date, and it was really good. Bow hunt in RSA, 1998.


Larry Sellers
SCI(International) Life Member
Soon to be DSC Member

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Todd

fine words but all intended to cloud the issue rather than answer the question(s).

The question I keep asking is can you tell us how much total profit they made from the last convention & what they did with that profit please?

Or alternatively; can you please tell us the total value of last year's donations & what was done with the money?

The research I've been able to do indicates that $CI should (because they're a Corporation) present details of such income etc and yet none or you $CI $uperfans seem to be able to direct us to that information...... and I wonder why?

I've even proved how other organisations and even Govts are able and willing to publish such details when the $uperfans have told me it doesn't happen.

Yes, we have discussed it (several times) before and on every occasion, people have ducked that same question in exactly the same way but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop asking it.

Jaglav

You must have posted as I was typing but if you know the way around the website can you perhaps tell us the answers to the questions and maybe provide links?

Interesting what you say about what SCI is because the last time I looked, their constitution said they were a corporation. - Maybe something has changed there or maybe both descriptions apply....... I don't know anywhere near enough about US company law to comment beyond that but perhaps someone else does?

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
"I Don't know anywhere enough about US company law to comment beyond that but perhaps someone else does?" BINGO, WE HAVE A WINNER!!! Steve my friend, you just made your total point on this discussion.

It has now been shown EXACTLY how to reference and find ALL the information you and Saeed have been begging for. Check it out and PLEASE give us a full report when you get the chance.

**** Check post above to see instructions.

To the subject of the original post. I have purchased a total of one auction hunts to date, and it was really good. Bow hunt in RSA, 1998.


Larry Sellers
SCI(International) Life Member
Soon to be DSC Member

Larry

Quite honestly, that comment of yours is more utter bollocks simply designed to cloud the issue & nothing more.

Unless their website & constitution has been changed in the last 12 months or so, it says they're a Corporation & according to Wiki, most, if not all Corporations have to publish accounts.

You posted "MOST all organizations whether, Clubs, Businesses, Charities, Unions, Governments, you get the picture, DO NOT list every penny they make and spend to the folks here on AR or anywhere else for that matter."

And I then proved that untrue by publishing 3 separate examples, including 1 from your own Govt that did do exactly that.

I ask all you $CI cheerleaders yet again:

Can you tell us how much total profit they made from the last convention & what they did with that profit please?

Or alternatively; can you please tell us the total value of last year's donations & what was done with the money?


As regards your comment "No one is "blackmailing", "extorting", "manipulating", "coercing" or "forcing" their individual contributors in any form or fashion".

That's actually exactly what they're doing because they say the convention product will cost you X amount but you can only have a booth IF you 'donate' something worth at least Y amount & the higher the value, the better the location we'll give you, which in my book is exactly "blackmailing", "extorting", "manipulating", "coercing" or "forcing" their individual contributors"

Per Saeed's comments as well as others - what is wrong with SCI being transparent and accountable for the free money the get and spend?

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Per Saeed's comments as well as others - what is wrong with SCI being transparent and accountable for the free money the get and spend?

I agree completely. If they've got nothing to hide, why do they try to hide it and why do the SCI sheeple simply accept the apparent secrecy?

I tried following Jaglav's directions but it requires a sign in so doesn't work for me.

I think most likely the reason they are not completely transparent is the same reason you don't tell your wife where you spend every dollar/rand/whatever. Most likely, it would be an issue with how well the help is paid.

No matter how it is spent, someone else will have issues with it, usually someone who really doesn't have much skin in the game, but would like to have that money.

I assume if I saw the exact breakdown, I would have issues. Heck, I just got to be an officer in a family run corp, and dang near got thrown out because I didn't agree with some of the expenses that the other officers like.

As to your comment about corporations, Steve, I believe in the US, you are either an individual or a corporation. There are different kinds of corporations (and I think SCI is some flavor of a nonprofit)

I guess if I really HAD to know, I would get active in the local chapter and work my way up the line, assuming I didn't torque someone off too much on the way. I am sure to get in to the top offices you need to know the right people, and that is also a reason people get annoyed with groups like this, on the other hand, I am pretty sure that I could not become the head of DSC either...

Just for clarification, and as I previously posted:

I'm not entirely anti SCI, I'm not anti convention and I'm certainly not anti SCI members but I am rabidly anti 'donaton' scheme (amongst a few other things) and I think it's extremely unhealthy/unfair for such a massive amount of money to be taken each and every year from an industry that works on such a relatively low profit margin....... and I simply fail to understand why the answers to the 2 questions I keep asking are such a closely kept secret unless of course someone has something to hide and if they do, that makes it even more important to know the truth!

Isn't it easier just to ask SCI direct about their money and where it is spent rather than members on here?

quote:

Originally posted by dorsethunter:
Isn't it easier just to ask SCI direct about their money and where it is spent rather than members on here?

Try it........ it's highly unlikely you'll even get an acknowledgement much less the required info.

Steve Happy new year! Regarding the blackmail and booth placement, I look at it this way, and please this is just my simple opinion outfitters have a choice on the amount they want to donate and what kind of hunt they want to donate you get points for that and hence A better booth placement, hell look at it this way If you are going to watch a football match the tickets are not the same price you pay more for better seats, is that extortion or black mail as well??

I agree SCI make mistakes but they do more good than bad, yes they had some bad apples there before and could have dealt with them much faster but I am sure they are improving year after year.

Phillip

Then they should just charge a premium for the better placed booths rather than do it the way they do.

The first hunt on the page I posted previously is advertising a 'donation' worth not far short of $70K & that to me is an absolute piss take!

That money has to come from somewhere & that means that the outfitter & staff have to take the knock and/or the cost is passed onto the other clients. In either case, it's bang out of order but much more to the point........ people should be asking & have at least a moral right to know how much is involved & where does the money go?

They're simple questions but apparently the answers are a closely kept secret & as I also keep saying, one has to wonder why that is?

Oh & a happy New Year to you & yours also. - Hope you have a happy, safe & prosperous 2014.

Steve and Seead,

The two of you are like a broken record. Why anyone would WASTE their time engaging the two of you in conversation about SCI is beyond me. I've seen the same conversations year after year and I'm keeping out.

Brett

P.S. Hopefully Starbucks won't "extort" you for money the next time you go to get coffee………

quote:

hell look at it this way If you are going to watch a football match the tickets are not the same price you pay more for better seats, is that extortion or black mail as well??

Bit like comparing apples to oranges, but never mind.

On the other hand, why doesn't the organizing committee draw names out of a hat for space allocation - yes, that's right, all the Tom, Dick and Harry's, happily together in the rotating drum, no favours for anyone; take what you get at a flat rate!

Also, don't forget the floor map that shows who is where and if you think a booth at the farthest end of the complex is too far, the interested client would still walk those extra 100 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by BrettAKSCI:
Steve and Seead,

The two of you are like a broken record. Why anyone would WASTE their time engaging the two of you in conversation about SCI is beyond me. I've seen the same conversations year after year and I'm keeping out.

Brett

P.S. Hopefully Starbucks won't "extort" you for money the next time you go to get coffee………

Hey, if you don't like the opinions, don't read 'em....... You've even got an ignore function to use if you want to!

When I go into Starbuck's they have the prices on the wall for me & no-one asks me how much extra I'll be 'donating' before they give me a table........ to say nothing of the fact they publish their accounts so the general public can see how much money they've made & how much tax they've dodged!

If something is wrong, then it's wrong & will never be right & the fact that the sheeple don't seem to be able to answer the questions doesn't mean Saeed, I or anyone else should stop asking those questions.

In fact, it makes it even more important that we do!

fujotupu, in live you get what you pay for and that is the way SCI does it, now if you agree or not it is not going to change one bit, there is a waiting list of more than 300 trying to get in I was on that list for 5 years finally got in and happy that I DID! Putting names in A hat? please tell me what show in the entire world work like that?

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Steve Happy new year! Regarding the blackmail and booth placement, I look at it this way, and please this is just my simple opinion outfitters have a choice on the amount they want to donate and what kind of hunt they want to donate you get points for that and hence A better booth placement, hell look at it this way If you are going to watch a football match the tickets are not the same price you pay more for better seats, is that extortion or black mail as well??

I agree SCI make mistakes but they do more good than bad, yes they had some bad apples there before and could have dealt with them much faster but I am sure they are improving year after year.

It's the same answer as with the Starbuck's analogy.

The price for the coffee or the seat is published & no-one asks you for an additional donation before you get a table or a seat etc.

As I've previously said, my gripe isn't with SCI, the convention or the members. It's with the so called 'donation' scheme & why the income derived is such a secret.

In fact, I can't think of a single (legal) business that is allowed to operate that way.

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
fujotupu, in live you get what you pay for and that is the way SCI does it, now if you agree or not it is not going to change one bit, there is a waiting list of more than 300 trying to get in I was on that list for 5 years finally got in and happy that I DID! Putting names in A hat? please tell me what show in the entire world work like that?

The system is nothing more than blatant corruption because if someone went in there & said they want X number of booths & would make a more valuable 'donation' than anyone else, they'd get in straight away.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
fujotupu, in live you get what you pay for and that is the way SCI does it, now if you agree or not it is not going to change one bit, there is a waiting list of more than 300 trying to get in I was on that list for 5 years finally got in and happy that I DID! Putting names in A hat? please tell me what show in the entire world work like that?

The system is nothing more than blatant corruption because if someone went in there & said they want X number of booths & would make a more valuable 'donation' than anyone else, they'd get in straight away.

Why is that a corrupt system? Isn't that the way a market works? You allocate supply to those that value the product the greatest. I suppose when you get ready to sell your house it will not be to the person that offers to pay the highest price but to anyone that is prepared to pay some base price? There is absolutely nothing wrong with a system that allocates space to those that are willing to pay more for it, whether that is in cash or in donations or both. The only people that are disadvantaged are those that place a lower value on the space than those that get the space.

Mike

No, it's not the way most markets work. Most markets sell a product for a price but if you think otherwise, what other business works the same way as the 'donation' system then?

It's like you buy a first class ticket for (let's say) the published price of US$5000 & then get bumped off the flight or bumped down to cattle class (without refund) because someone else has come along afterwards & paid the US$5000 plus a further US$2000 so you then have to wait until the next day & even then, someone else might come along & do the same thing again & the only way you can beat that is to pay more than the other guy.

As I see it, it's nothing less than thinly veiled extortion & as I've said before, I'm surprised it's not illegal.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
No, it's not the way most markets work.

It is the way every "market" works. A market allocates supply and demand. It does that based on price. The scarcer the product the higher the price. Ever been to an auction? Ever bought stock on the stock market? Ever bought a gun on Gun Broker? Ever bid on EBay?

Just because some businesses decide to set a price and sell at that price as a matter of convenience and choice, does not mean that other businesses that function more as a true market are corrupt or illegal. In that airline seat example, once the airline realizes there is more demand for that seat than supply . . . know what they are going to do . . . increase the price. They just choose to do it in a two step process versus one.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shakari:

Why is that a corrupt system? Isn't that the way a market works? You allocate supply to those that value the product the greatest. I suppose when you get ready to sell your house it will not be to the person that offers to pay the highest price but to anyone that is prepared to pay some base price? There is absolutely nothing wrong with a system that allocates space to those that are willing to pay more for it, whether that is in cash or in donations or both. The only people that are disadvantaged are those that place a lower value on the space than those that get the space.

Mike - this statement by Steve..

"The system is nothing more than blatant corruption because if someone went in there & said they want X number of booths & would make a more valuable 'donation' than anyone else, they'd get in straight away."

.... is simply incorrect. The booth allocation system has been explained on here time and time again - but Steve ignores this and rehashes the same complaints and queries each year, sometimes more than once per year.

Steve says he has only one complaint - but he raises more than one complaint in this thread. Booth allocation with SCI is totally transparent and accountable.

You're missing the point entirely.(perhaps deliberately?)

You talk about ebay etc but they're open auctions & this is not.

A better/more accurate analogy might be if you walked into a restaurant that had the prices on the wall & the waiter asking you how much you will tip him before he leads you to a table because the bigger the tip, the better the table.......... the only difference is the tip would be a few dollars & the donation between a few thousand & many tens of thousands of dollars.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
The booth allocation system has been explained on here time and time again - but Steve ignores this and rehashes the same complaints and queries each year, sometimes more than once per year.

Steve says he has only one complaint - but he raises more than one complaint in this thread. Booth allocation with SCI is totally transparent and accountable.

More issue clouding yet again Matt....... & I'll be sure to brace myself for your next step of petty insults & ridiculous innuendo.

All I want is answers to my two questions which are:

Can you tell us how much total profit they made from the last convention & what they did with that profit please?

Or alternatively; can you please tell us the total value of last year's donations & what was done with the money?

The problem is all the $CI sheeple are either unable or unwilling to provide what should be very simple answers to very simple questions.

But I'm not about to stop asking!

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
fujotupu, in live you get what you pay for and that is the way SCI does it, now if you agree or not it is not going to change one bit, there is a waiting list of more than 300 trying to get in I was on that list for 5 years finally got in and happy that I DID! Putting names in A hat? please tell me what show in the entire world work like that?

Seeing you quoted football matches, how about the World Cup draw?

The floor space has different prices according to positions, much in the same manner as the seating arrangements at the football match or theater.

However, having to pay extra to get that top spot is similar to buying "sold out" tickets in the parking lot ... know what I mean

So, drawing out of the hat for floor space is not really out of line after all: you could have Groups A, B, C, etc. based on the booth grading.

Donations of course could continue for purposes other than securing booth positions and with added transparency on how, to whom and in what measure the proceeds are distributed.

I think it is pretty clear who is missing the point, and undoubtedly it is deliberately.

You said no markets work to allocate supply based on who is willing to pay the most. We have proven beyond a doubt that is false. Then you say, this is not an auction (I don't blame you for abandoning the original premise regarding this not being how markets work given its inherent flaws). It appears that you have simple unilaterally made this declaration. Who says it is not an auction? Regardless of what they call it, if it looks like an auction, functions like an auction, good chance it is an auction. The fact they choose to use an auction-type approach to allocate space does not make it corrupt, illegal or unethical.

Here is what it boils down to, you do not like approach ergo the approach is corrupt, illegal and unethical. When you become King, you can make that declaration. Until then, the approach SCI takes is up to them.

Mike,

That's utter nonsense & is nothing more than trying to excuse the inexcusable simply by clouding the issue, so let's move on and I'll ask if you can answer the questions which yet again, are:

Can you tell us how much total profit they made from the last convention & what they did with that profit please? Or alternatively; can you please tell us the total value of last year's donations & what was done with the money?

Also as a matter of interest...... do YOU think it's reasonable for the info I'm seeking to be kept such a closely guarded secret?

That question requires a yes or no answer.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
That's utter nonsense & is nothing more than trying to excuse the inexcusable simply by clouding the issue, so let's move on . . .

I believe it was Winston Churchill who said, "never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man." You tried that the system is corrupt and should be illegal. After that you tried that no market works this way. Then you tried that this is no auction. When all else fails, just declare it over and move on. I think the picture is actually pretty clear for anyone following the thread.

Mike

So does that mean you also can't (or perhaps won't?) answer my questions as posted above either then?

If you can't then your remarks are no more use or better than anything that has come before....... All they are is petty insults and innuendo that are designed to duck the issue.