quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Would it be fair to say all three had a drinking problem and it negatively affected their life in one way or another? Would it be fair to say that Hemingway's drinking negatively affected his depression which ultimately ended up killing him? Would it be fair to say that Raurk and Capstick suffered from very poor health toward the end of their lives and that may have been somewhat to signifigantly impacted by their drinking? Just a thought

This wasn't the argument, that Hemingway drank himself to depression and suicide was. Let's not change the premise now that the debate has begun.

As I stated in a post above I poorly worded that part. It should have read: "Hemingway suffered from depression and his drinking in no way helped that. In the end he was so dipressed he shot himself."

So as I asked: Would it be fair to say those things about Raurk, PHC, and Hemingway?

Brett

quote:

Alcoholic Definition: Someone who drinks more than you do.

Too funny and too true!



Brett

The famous dead author was a drunk vs. the famous dead author struggled with alcohol. Kind of splitting hairs to me. Frankly, not to be trite, but it's not like we can sober any of them up now so what difference does it make?

They wrote interesting/entertaining books. That's all that matters to me.

A fun drinking/drunk fact. A woman once called Winston Churchill a drunk. His reply: "I might be a drunk, but you're ugly! At least in the morning I'll be sober!" Ouch!



Brett

BTW, people with depression or bad head injuries can't be alcoholics?

quote:

So as I asked: Would it be fair to say those things about Raurk, PHC, and Hemingway?

Hmm... pretty fair for a different argument, yes. A drinking problem by definition negatively affects one's life, else it's not a.... Hemingway's drinking and Ruark's drinking problems were obvious (albeit one physical and one psychological) , in PHC's case, not so sure it was his drinking that put him on the table where he eventually died. I simply do not have the information to make that statement. However in Sands of Silence (I think) he mentions he takes some sort of medication that is affected by caffeine so he drinks a beer instead of coffee for breakfast. PErhaps this is an indication that PHC had heart issues. He was a heavy smoker from what I have heard and that don;t help.

quote:

BTW, people with depression or bad head injuries can't be alcoholics

In EH's case he was ready for AA long before the head injuries or depression set in.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
A fun drinking/drunk fact. A woman once called Winston Churchill a drunk. His reply: "I might be a drunk, but you're ugly! At least in the morning I'll be sober!" Ouch!



Brett

Another Churchillian beauty.

A female political opponent of W.C. once said to him......"Mr Churchill, if you were my husband I would put poison in your coffee",....to which he replied...."Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it".

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

BTW, people with depression or bad head injuries can't be alcoholics

In EH's case he was ready for AA long before the head injuries or depression set in.

Agreed. There was supposed to be a ? at the end of my statement. I was careless I guess.

5 elephants shot or 800 elephant claimed?

Whats the difference of 795 elephants between friends.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
we should, most of us, carry a small talisman, adorned with a beret, monacle, wearing sneakers with no socks to pay homage to the person who at least provided that tiny spark that led us where we are today.

Agreed.

Actually chaps, I think you'll find that PHC died of coronory heart disease that ran in the family and although his smoking & drinking wouldn't have done him any favours, it was the familial heart disease that did him in. His brother Tom also died young of the same thing.

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hathaway_Capstick

Ruark died of throat cancer and again, his smoking and drinking wouldn't have done him any favours.

Regarding Hemingway, I think you'll find that the doctors at the time thought his depression and suicide were more a result of the head and other injuries he incurred in two separate light plane crashes and injuries later sustained in a bushfire more than his drinking.

See the 'Cuba' section, second para here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Hemingway

And further down the same page, entitled 'Idaho and suicide'

At least this thread has shown me some folks with whom I'd not care to share a campfire.

quote:

Ruark died of throat cancer

I'm not sure where you got this info, hopefully it's not on the wikipedia page which, by the way, is the source of more misinformation than about any other source. Ruark died because his liver was absolutely trashed and falling apart from alcohol abuse and it totally wrecked that organ and the supporting plumbing . I have never heard of the throat cancer theory and in fact I'd go so far as to say it's completely wrong.

Baxter,

Admittedly some Wiki pages are not particularly accurate but those ones are.

Regarding Ruark, I direct you to the book 'A View From a Tall Hill by Terry Wieland, which incidentally, you'll find towards the bottom of the page here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...book-collection.html

No doubt Ruark was a heavy drinker and I'm sure his liver was probably in shit order but it was cancer that killed him.

It says in the preface that his liver was hemorrahaging badly when he died but later in the book it says somewhere he actually died of throat cancer.

Mind you, it also says "it would not be overstating to suggest that the real cause of his death was a broken heart"

Either way, I guess it's fair to say he croaked far too early and it was probably a case of which of his illnesses got to him first.

However he died it was a pity such a great author died so young. I always rated him as one of the very best.

I will definitely check this out as it seems at odds with everything else I have read and no, I have not read Wieland's book but will get a copy today.

Odd thing about it is that of all i've read, and this includes more than 40 hours with his personal papers at UNC, the same papers about every other biographer goes through, I have never seen the word cancer mentioned. Fear of cancer yes, but a diagnosis no. The accounts of Ruark hemorrhaging blood from his bum, the doctors finding his liver un-repairable seem to point more to liver issues than throat cancer, but hey, i'll do some more looking. Interesting that Wieland's book is the only one that may mention it and Foster and Ritchie did not.

The broken heart thing I dont put much stock in. Bob was lonely yes, but wasn;t the hopeless romantic that statement makes him out to be. Hemingway however was a hopeless romantic who couldn;t seem to know that the best he would ever have was also the first. As for another PHC tie-back, I think his Dedication to Fiona in Safari, The Last Adventure was probably truer than we realize.

Actually Baxter,

I might owe you an apology! - I was going from memory and a conversation with a good friend, but have just checked the book again and there seems to be some confusion.

Somewhere in the book it says throat cancer but the preface says liver failure............. guess I'll have to re-read the book when I get time to try to get a better handle on it.

As you say, broken heart is hardly a scientific diagnosis huh!

To me, the big difference in the writings of EH & RR is that EH wallowed in the misery of Africa whereas RR celebrated it.

I always found Hemingway a bit depressing to read somehow.

Will still check the book out. Honestly have not read it because have heard it wasn't all it was cracked up to be, but then neither was the Ritchie book in my opinion.

I agree that RR celebrated Africa, really loved it and EH seemed to use africa as a set from which to explore other aspects of humanity. For example GHOA isn't really about africa at all.

quote:

Hemingway however was a hopeless romantic who couldn;t seem to know that the best he would ever have was also the first

Actually, I think he did realize it and was searching for Hadley (in the form of another woman) for the rest of his life. After all, A Moveable Feast is a really a reflection of his good times in Paris and these were all with Hadley. It was the last book he actively worked on.

I quite enjoy Terry Wieland's writing usually but reckon his spiral horned dreams was about his best one..... haven't read it for a while though.

Yeah, I agree about GHOA.......... I always thought it was a bloody miserable book!

Hmmmm; Have ever told you guys about the time I was a 'sea captain'?
And of course, there was the sveral years I spent as a helocoptor pilot back in world war 1.

Now, what did I do with my glass of warm milk. . . . . . .

I received a copy of "movable feast" for christmas. The introduction was by his grandson, I believe. Anyhow, his comment on the suicide death was that EH was depressed, treated at the Mayo Clinic for Depression with ECT (electroshock) and as a result has problems with being able to write, and killed himself over that.

Given that ECT will cause all kids of memory issues, and the older forms were notorious for all kinds memory and personality issues, it does not surprise me at all. In any case, its what is apparently the "family" view of it.

With regards to both Hemingway and Ruark, we also must remember that this was a different time. I remember talking with my grandparents generation, and being flabbergasted that it was normal for various professionals to drink 2-3 cocktails at lunch and return to work in the afternoon (Doctors and lawyers as well as businessmen). It may well be something that some peoples bodies can not tolerate, but by the social norms of the times, they might not have been alcoholics (In fact, the fact that they were successful in their fields may indicate the opposite, as impaired function is a hallmark of the disease...)

I too had heard that Ruark has significant liver disease, but in any case, alcohol abuse can cause oral cancer as well as liver disease, and the combination of excessive smoking and excessive drinking is well known to worsen the risk. Its also a risk factor for heart disease too.

In any case, we all have our own demons to confront, and unless one of you can bring them back from the dead all of this is just plain speculation.

All were great authors, I have enjoyed all three's work. Why not leave it there? If someone who has some connection with Capstick would write a biography, I would buy it. I would prefer someone who was a contemporary because as was shown with PHC's book on Taylor, your sources really can bias the work; but it would be a literary exercise of that author, not PHC, so it would have to stand on its own enjoyment.

I have to read enough crap in my day to day life that is poorly written, biased, and later proved just plain wrong to want to spend my leisure reading a boring literary treatise.

I too wish this thread had died a unlamented death long ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
WHAT ABOUT THEM COWBOYS!!!

HOLY CRAP.......Looky what I found

Been drinkin' Steve??

Nahh, just bored..saturday night.

Need to change the title of this thread to Capstick was actually Lazarus.

The thread that won't stay dead.

Hey Crazy,

The gift that keeps on giving......

Steve

Is slow around here anyway, so what the hell.

someone please bury this dead horse! and where is Dawie Groenwald and his backhoe/bulldozer when you need him?

So what in the end he was a Drunk that lost his nerve and so what he may of put himseldf in a story that happened to someone else thats just the way the cookie crumbles same story one person gets the credit and the other is lost in time same as the 450 watts

Its kinda like watching somebody else's fingernails being pulled off huh?

Besides, there MUST be some new blood that never knew the joy.

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have seen only one or two of his videos, but read all his books.

His books are very entertaining - in fact, that is what got me thinking of going to Africa in the first place!

But, his videos I did not find interesting at all.

Regardless of the above, despite the fact that he seems not be such a great PHs, as he wished to be known, he did more for modern African hunting than anyone I can think of.

And, my friends, deserves a very big THANK YOU Peter Hathaway Capstick.


Absolutely! Who can derive pleasure from criticising someone who is dead, but who accomplished so much for the sport we all love? What the ##%! do you think you are accomplishing?

Who's Capstick?

In my eyes the greatest of the African writers! Peter H. Capstick helped bring hunting back to Africa when it was on the bottom of the list.

I say shame on those that would bad mouth someone as talented has Mr. Capstick and he may have not been the greatest at hunting.......who the hell is I ask and can yet rank with Peter H. Capstick writing about Africa. I salute you Peter!

I'll just finish what I started gentlemen if you please and if you don't tuff nuts to all those who would trash the Peter H. Capstick name. Pissing on a man's grave (with your negative words) is the lowest form of being an
Ass Mole.

I find it ludicrous for anyone to call Peter H. Capstick a Fraud. This man was not only a great writer of the English language, he was a damn good hunter period. He was also an inspiration to thousands of people, weather they were hunters or not. I know his writings gave me the itch to hunt the dark continent. I suppose it is real easy for some to hide behind an internet address and say what they would not dare never say to someone of a different opinion up close eye ball to eye ball.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Hemingway however was a hopeless romantic who couldn;t seem to know that the best he would ever have was also the first

Actually, I think he did realize it and was searching for Hadley (in the form of another woman) for the rest of his life. After all, A Moveable Feast is a really a reflection of his good times in Paris and these were all with Hadley. It was the last book he actively worked on.

You may have a point, but he really loved Mary. His anger at Hadley for losing a suitcase full of manuscripts was never fully resolved. That contributed to the divorce.

Green Hills may not have been his best work, but it was not all that bad and Africa was responsible for The Short Happy Life and Snows, two of the best short stories ever written.
Ruark was an excellent writer, but he couldn't touch Hemingway on his best day.

Funny, but I am coincidentally currently re-reading A Moveable Feast and it is as fresh to me as it was the day I first read it shortly after it was published. Few writers can make the claim to having produced ageless prose. Hemingway is certainly one of them.