Okay its now been 8 days since Cme last posted, any progress made on refund; all, some or none?

Argentina was closed to tourist visitors during the COVID mess until late 2021. Every hunt was reshuffled or refunded. The only change was the price of shells, but that was out of our control. The shell manufacturers shifted their lines to make other munitions.

I suppose a “force majeure” clause could’ve been used, but we rarely use a contract. I’ve advised contracts should be used, but a deposit and handshake seals the deal. Often, it’s just a handshake with good clients.

While shut down, our lodge turned into a B&B for Argentines. It was an oasis for those wanting to escape the city and ride horses or whatever. No employees were laid off. Instead, bird boys became plumbers, carpenters, landscapers, or whatever. No client deposits spent. It was out of the M&M pockets.

I have gone off the reservation, just like this entire thread has. CME needs to be made whole. I don’t expect Andrew to come out of pocket, but his damn reputation here depends on him busting his ass to make CME whole from the outfitter. As I’ve said, I only know Andrew through this forum and he would’ve been my first pick in Zambia, but I’m not so sure now.

Hey, what about this Sam Farrow guy?

I have booked and had a great safari with Andrew on precisely the same terms as the poster has booked here.

But without the drama of Zambian government politics and interference.

Once the politicians get involved, all is lost.

I hope, God willing, that I will book another great safari with Andrew yet again.

Zambia is an amazing and wonderful place to hunt.

But not where and when the Zambian government can manage to and does f#ck it up.

I have no doubt that Andrew is doing all he can to make this come out right.

This is a bad situation, in which everything monetary is out of his control.

The operator must make good. That is the bottom line.

I continue to believe that good people, with good intentions and acting in good faith, will achieve a satisfactory although not perfect result.

Perfection is beyond us humans, except for some, and then only on the internet.

Mr Robinson that is a whole lot of hope and dreams. The reality is that on June 16th I asked for a refund in writing from the operator and Fairgame. Subsequent requests have since been made. Fairgame comes on AR to criticize someone else and gets called out. In turn, instead of taking responsibility Fairgame has told everyone why it isn’t his fault. Well he guaranteed a refund on this very thread. It has been 19 days since this situation was made public and I’ve seen how much money back? Zero dollars, yes that’s right 0 dollars.

Will I ever be refunded? Maybe, maybe not, but I can always make more money. I can’t get back the time with my dad.

The other thread was all about deflection . . . quick, look over there . . .

The more exposure crooks get the better!

quote:

This makes it seem that Andrew and Ibrahim needed the last $20,000 from CME to make the other AR members whole. Wonder what the definition of a Ponzi is.....

That's what it appears by the comments and timing.......

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The more exposure crooks get the better!

You mean like crooks that take an $80,000 deposit, but do not provide a hunt?? or give a refund??? Crooks like that???

AR is an equal opportunity place!

ALL CROOKS should be shown what they REALLY are.

No exceptions are made for some members pets

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

This makes it seem that Andrew and Ibrahim needed the last $20,000 from CME to make the other AR members whole. Wonder what the definition of a Ponzi is.....

That's what it appears by the comments and timing.......

I figured that from the beginning. The thinking was probably to get everyone refunded except for one guy. Easier to deal with just one vs many. Then cross our fingers that we can settle things with the last guy by offering other hunts or discounted hunts to avoid a refund.

quote:

Originally posted by bobby7321:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

This makes it seem that Andrew and Ibrahim needed the last $20,000 from CME to make the other AR members whole. Wonder what the definition of a Ponzi is.....

That's what it appears by the comments and timing.......

I figured that from the beginning. The thinking was probably to get everyone refunded except for one guy. Easier to deal with just one vs many. Then cross our fingers that we can settle things with the last guy by offering other hunts or discounted hunts to avoid a refund.

Conjecture. A Ponzi scheme would indicate I made money from all this and if so then I would be liable. I was to do a full season in Cnanjuzi and bought vehicles and equipment to suit the arrangement along with appointing another PH and an apprentice.

It may boil down to compensation for hunting or a refund when money comes in. However, Cme and the Operator are in communication and it looks as if Cme will have to wait for his money I agree the deal is shitty but he will be reimbursed.

quote:

Originally posted by bobby7321:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

This makes it seem that Andrew and Ibrahim needed the last $20,000 from CME to make the other AR members whole. Wonder what the definition of a Ponzi is.....

That's what it appears by the comments and timing.......

I figured that from the beginning. The thinking was probably to get everyone refunded except for one guy. Easier to deal with just one vs many. Then cross our fingers that we can settle things with the last guy by offering other hunts or discounted hunts to avoid a refund.

Yes....and it seems like the others might have been active on AR and the one that didn't get refunded wasnt.....

.

Very sad situation, and puts a black mark against everyone involved.

Refunds should be made immediately, not months later.

Lots of dealing in African hunting revolves around trust.

Trust between people who do not know each other.

Most of the times those involved are straight forward and honest, things do work out, regardless of some little quibbles.


But, on some occasions the proverbial shit hits the fan.

And everyone is affected.

Very sad indeed that the client is still waiting.

Or did I miss anything??

Saeed,

What has happen here has happen before and probably will happen again.

I almost became entangled in a situation like this, i got lucky, however many others did not. The booking agent, spent the funds, the PH’s were out prime dates and customers who were grumbling to them and wanted to know when they should arrive to take in their paid hunt. The various PH’s from different countries were trying to sort out what happened. The booking agent went bankrupt, the hunters who paid for trips received nothing, the PH’s lost many clients who never returned to hunt with them (old time clients). Very difficult to recover from that.

What occurred here is an unfortunate happening, and may never be made right. Time moves forward and you will never recover that. Son wanting to hunt with his father may never happen and that is unforgivable.

Yes, it will happen again, no doubt about that.

But, sometimes, those involved can turn the situation to their advantage, on how they deal with their client.

This one has been a black mark against the providers.


Someone might help me here.

So far I understand:


1. The client wanted to hunt with Andrew.

2. The hunt would be conducted on someone else’s concession.

3. The client pays the owner of the concession.

4. The government throws a monkey wrench in the works.

5. The client wanted his money back.

6. Some discussions were made to move his hunt to another area.

7. This did not pan out.

8. Clients wants his money back.

9. The person who received the money is ultimately responsible for paying him back.

10. Andrew is to try his best to get the client his money.

11. He is not ultimately responsible to pay anything back, unless he has received advance payments for his job as professional hunter for this hunt.

quote:

11. He is not ultimately responsible to pay anything back, unless he has received advance payments for his job as professional hunter for this hunt.

It is doubtful Andrew would be paid for his professional services up front as the norm is that PH fees are always settled after the hunt.

The only amount (if at all) would be the "finder's fee" for providing the outfitter with a client which the outfitter settles once the safari booking has been confirmed and paid for.

IMHO Andrew cannot be held liable nor accountable for this fiasco and if he did
in fact receive a "finder's fee" then arguably I would guess that amount however minimal, should be refundable.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

11. He is not ultimately responsible to pay anything back, unless he has received advance payments for his job as professional hunter for this hunt.

It is doubtful Andrew would be paid for his professional services up front as the norm is that PH fees are always settled after the hunt.

The only amount (if at all) would be the "finder's fee" for providing the outfitter with a client which the outfitter settles once the safari booking has been confirmed and paid for.

IMHO Andrew cannot be held liable nor accountable for this fiasco and if he did
in fact receive a "finder's fee" then arguably I would guess that amount however minimal, should be refundable.

There was no finders fee and the perk was a full season in Luangwa. Cme will be refunded and I will make sure of that but what I cannot fix was the safari with his father

If there is anything that should be learned from this fiasco, it should be to make sure you know who you are sending money to . A little research on Ibi will reveals a few disturbing facts. I would not send him $.25 for any reason .

I hope Corey gets his money back . I am sure this is quite stressful.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
If there is anything that should be learned from this fiasco, it should be to make sure you know who you are sending money to . A little research on Ibi will reveals a few disturbing facts. I would not send him $.25 for any reason .

I hope Corey gets his money back . I am sure this is quite stressful.

. . . and to make sure that the person selling the hunt is party to the contract too to avoid the inevitable finger pointing if and when the shit hits the fan.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
If there is anything that should be learned from this fiasco, it should be to make sure you know who you are sending money to . A little research on Ibi will reveals a few disturbing facts. I would not send him $.25 for any reason .

I hope Corey gets his money back . I am sure this is quite stressful.

. . . and to make sure that the person selling the hunt is party to the contract too to avoid the inevitable finger pointing if and when the shit hits the fan.

Contract?

How would you enforce a contract in Africa?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
If there is anything that should be learned from this fiasco, it should be to make sure you know who you are sending money to . A little research on Ibi will reveals a few disturbing facts. I would not send him $.25 for any reason .

I hope Corey gets his money back . I am sure this is quite stressful.

. . . and to make sure that the person selling the hunt is party to the contract too to avoid the inevitable finger pointing if and when the shit hits the fan.

Contract?

How would you enforce a contract in Africa?

In the case of straight fraud, contracts obviously will never work. In this case involving Andrew who facilitated the hunt, and Ibrahim the outfitter who received all the money paid by Cme for the hunt, it seems there was no deliberate fraud involved but a set of circumstances, namely government interference, which has prevented Cme's and other hunts going ahead. A contract in this case is still not going to prevent what has happened as the money paid by Cme has gone into the outfitters expenses, some or all of which has been used to refund other hunters with cancelled hunts.

Ibrahim business operation appears to be using funds paid by hunters in advance of delivering services and Ibi now has to wait to receive more funds from hunters paying in advance for hunts so he can refund Cme.
As I said in my earlier posts, "robbing Peter to pay Paul", and seemingly set to continue as Cme awaits a refund. If you operate in this fashion eventually you will get caught out. Contracts never cover this scenario.

[/QUOTE]

In the case of straight fraud, contracts obviously will never work. In this case involving Andrew who facilitated the hunt, and Ibrahim the outfitter who received all the money paid by Cme for the hunt, it seems there was no deliberate fraud involved but a set of circumstances, namely government interference, which has prevented Cme's and other hunts going ahead. A contract in this case is still not going to prevent what has happened as the money paid by Cme has gone into the outfitters expenses, some or all of which has been used to refund other hunters with cancelled hunts.

Ibrahim business operation appears to be using funds paid by hunters in advance of delivering services and Ibi now has to wait to receive more funds from hunters paying in advance for hunts so he can refund Cme.
As I said in my earlier posts, "robbing Peter to pay Paul", and seemingly set to continue as Cme awaits a refund. If you operate in this fashion eventually you will get caught out. Contracts never cover this scenario.[/QUOTE]

The government had closed hunting prior to the client BOOKING the hunt. The client was only made aware of the closure 30 day before he was due to leave. In the meantime all other hunters knew the situation and the operator kept on asking for more money to repay other hunters deposit knowing full well he would not be able to provide the hunt. In my opinion that is fraud from the organisers of the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
If there is anything that should be learned from this fiasco, it should be to make sure you know who you are sending money to . A little research on Ibi will reveals a few disturbing facts. I would not send him $.25 for any reason .

I hope Corey gets his money back . I am sure this is quite stressful.

Larry that is a damaging statement and I would ask you for your source. Any Operator working under fragile conditions imposed by the Government requires support, not condemnation. I have watched Chanjuzi grow under his charge and hence very comfortable with booking my clients here.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
If there is anything that should be learned from this fiasco, it should be to make sure you know who you are sending money to . A little research on Ibi will reveals a few disturbing facts. I would not send him $.25 for any reason .

I hope Corey gets his money back . I am sure this is quite stressful.

. . . and to make sure that the person selling the hunt is party to the contract too to avoid the inevitable finger pointing if and when the shit hits the fan.

Have you done that in the past?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Yes, it will happen again, no doubt about that.

But, sometimes, those involved can turn the situation to their advantage, on how they deal with their client.

This one has been a black mark against the providers.


Someone might help me here.

So far I understand:


1. The client wanted to hunt with Andrew.

2. The hunt would be conducted on someone else’s concession.

3. The client pays the owner of the concession.

4. The government throws a monkey wrench in the works.

5. The client wanted his money back.

6. Some discussions were made to move his hunt to another area.

7. This did not pan out.

8. Clients wants his money back.

9. The person who received the money is ultimately responsible for paying him back.

10. Andrew is to try his best to get the client his money.

11. He is not ultimately responsible to pay anything back, unless he has received advance payments for his job as professional hunter for this hunt.

You missed the step where Cme was knowingly sold a hunt on a closed concession.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Yes, it will happen again, no doubt about that.

But, sometimes, those involved can turn the situation to their advantage, on how they deal with their client.

This one has been a black mark against the providers.


Someone might help me here.

So far I understand:


1. The client wanted to hunt with Andrew.

2. The hunt would be conducted on someone else’s concession.

3. The client pays the owner of the concession.

4. The government throws a monkey wrench in the works.

5. The client wanted his money back.

6. Some discussions were made to move his hunt to another area.

7. This did not pan out.

8. Clients wants his money back.

9. The person who received the money is ultimately responsible for paying him back.

10. Andrew is to try his best to get the client his money.

11. He is not ultimately responsible to pay anything back, unless he has received advance payments for his job as professional hunter for this hunt.

You missed the step where Cme was knowingly sold a hunt on a closed concession.

I am unaware that the hunt he was sold was on a closed concession!

Was it?

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Yes, it will happen again, no doubt about that.

But, sometimes, those involved can turn the situation to their advantage, on how they deal with their client.

This one has been a black mark against the providers.


Someone might help me here.

So far I understand:


1. The client wanted to hunt with Andrew.

2. The hunt would be conducted on someone else’s concession.

3. The client pays the owner of the concession.

4. The government throws a monkey wrench in the works.

5. The client wanted his money back.

6. Some discussions were made to move his hunt to another area.

7. This did not pan out.

8. Clients wants his money back.

9. The person who received the money is ultimately responsible for paying him back.

10. Andrew is to try his best to get the client his money.

11. He is not ultimately responsible to pay anything back, unless he has received advance payments for his job as professional hunter for this hunt.

You missed the step where Cme was knowingly sold a hunt on a closed concession.

Chanjuzi was not part of the 19 concession closure and Chanjuzi was awarded to Ibriham Nkonde on both tenders and was subject to a late injunction by a third party

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
If there is anything that should be learned from this fiasco, it should be to make sure you know who you are sending money to . A little research on Ibi will reveals a few disturbing facts. I would not send him $.25 for any reason .

I hope Corey gets his money back . I am sure this is quite stressful.

. . . and to make sure that the person selling the hunt is party to the contract too to avoid the inevitable finger pointing if and when the shit hits the fan.

Have you done that in the past?

. . . I have never signed a contract with anyone other than the person or entity selling the hunt . . . and I have booked many hunts where the outfitter was simply buying quota from another concession owner/operator.

You are just full of half truths. Here is what you posted on the first page of this thread.


There are always two sides to a story and 19 prime hunting blocks were closed down due to claimed irregularities under the previous Government tender and subsequently other blocks one being Chanjuzi (of which I had booked clients) were further restricted under a separate injunction and I had the operator reimburse all clients apart from the poster - It was feasible that the Lion/Leopard hunt would be concluded this year if we could wait it out. I am not sure of all the correspondence between the claimant and the operator but my understanding was that we would sit it out until the Government resolved the legality of the injunction.

I also suggested that the deposit could be carried forward to next year as the pricing was extremely fair, but if the poster is not conducive to this arrangement then I will guarantee a full refund and the hunt will be sold to another. The other hunts were sold to AR members who I ensured were adequately compensated and subsequently rebooked in other areas.

Not sure I want to hunt the poster anymore after this and I bent over backwards to reduce the Lion/Leopard hunt to $60,000 which we will extend to another interested party once the quota has been reinstated.

ROYAL KAFUE LTD
Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com
Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144
Instagram - kafueroyal

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
If there is anything that should be learned from this fiasco, it should be to make sure you know who you are sending money to . A little research on Ibi will reveals a few disturbing facts. I would not send him $.25 for any reason .

I hope Corey gets his money back . I am sure this is quite stressful.

Larry that is a damaging statement and I would ask you for your source. Any Operator working under fragile conditions imposed by the Government requires support, not condemnation. I have watched Chanjuzi grow under his charge and hence very comfortable with booking my clients here.

Andrew:

You never learn.

Try checking some real basic public records in Zambia .

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Yes, it will happen again, no doubt about that.

But, sometimes, those involved can turn the situation to their advantage, on how they deal with their client.

This one has been a black mark against the providers.


Someone might help me here.

So far I understand:


1. The client wanted to hunt with Andrew.

2. The hunt would be conducted on someone else’s concession.

3. The client pays the owner of the concession.

4. The government throws a monkey wrench in the works.

5. The client wanted his money back.

6. Some discussions were made to move his hunt to another area.

7. This did not pan out.

8. Clients wants his money back.

9. The person who received the money is ultimately responsible for paying him back.

10. Andrew is to try his best to get the client his money.

11. He is not ultimately responsible to pay anything back, unless he has received advance payments for his job as professional hunter for this hunt.

You missed the step where Cme was knowingly sold a hunt on a closed concession.

Chanjuzi was not part of the 19 concession closure and Chanjuzi was awarded to Ibriham Nkonde on both tenders and was subject to a late injunction by a third party

Good job of going back and adding the injunction information after you realized you contradicted your earlier half truth at the beginning of this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Yes, it will happen again, no doubt about that.

But, sometimes, those involved can turn the situation to their advantage, on how they deal with their client.

This one has been a black mark against the providers.


Someone might help me here.

So far I understand:


1. The client wanted to hunt with Andrew.

2. The hunt would be conducted on someone else’s concession.

3. The client pays the owner of the concession.

4. The government throws a monkey wrench in the works.

5. The client wanted his money back.

6. Some discussions were made to move his hunt to another area.

7. This did not pan out.

8. Clients wants his money back.

9. The person who received the money is ultimately responsible for paying him back.

10. Andrew is to try his best to get the client his money.

11. He is not ultimately responsible to pay anything back, unless he has received advance payments for his job as professional hunter for this hunt.

You missed the step where Cme was knowingly sold a hunt on a closed concession.

Chanjuzi was not part of the 19 concession closure and Chanjuzi was awarded to Ibriham Nkonde on both tenders and was subject to a late injunction by a third party

Good job of going back and adding the injunction information after you realized you contradicted your earlier half truth at the beginning of this thread.

Lhook7 -

I have yet to see in this thread, if Chanjuzi was open for hunting when the contract was signed. It "looks" to me like it was not? Am I reading it the same as you?

Steve,

It’s tough to be certain because the story keeps slightly changing. The way I am reading the timeline it appears to me that it was open when the initial contract was signed, but was closed when Cme asked to include his father and Andrew and the outfitter asked for more money and a new contract.

EDIT: I said it was closed above, but I actually believe it was known that it was going to be closed at that point.

It appears from what has,been covered that the ph and the outfitter both new that the area was not open prior to the last $20,000.00

Very sketchy deal that!

Seems like someone might have been robbing Peter to pay Paul..... And the Paul's were more active on the forums!!!!?

The forums where the robber gets free advertising......

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
It appears from what has,been covered that the ph and the outfitter both new that the area was not open prior to the last $20,000.00

Very sketchy deal that!

Seems like someone might have been robbing Peter to pay Paul..... And the Paul's were more active on the forums!!!!?

The forums where the robber gets free advertising......

I had no part in the financial dealings or deposit arrangements and my request was that all clients were to be refunded and there was no order of priority

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Steve,

It’s tough to be certain because the story keeps slightly changing. The way I am reading the timeline it appears to me that it was open when the initial contract was signed, but was closed when Cme asked to include his father and Andrew and the outfitter asked for more money and a new contract.

EDIT: I said it was closed above, but I actually believe it was known that it was going to be closed at that point.

I never prompted any payments and would not have endorsed the full payments when the norm is a percentage of the daily rates? Why an earth would I dedicate a season to an area that was going to be closed?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Steve,

It’s tough to be certain because the story keeps slightly changing. The way I am reading the timeline it appears to me that it was open when the initial contract was signed, but was closed when Cme asked to include his father and Andrew and the outfitter asked for more money and a new contract.

EDIT: I said it was closed above, but I actually believe it was known that it was going to be closed at that point.

I never prompted any payments and would not have endorsed the full payments when the norm is a percentage of the daily rates? Why an earth would I dedicate a season to an area that was going to be closed?

Andrew, as far as I am concerned, the person who has received the money is responsible to pay it back.

It seems we are all a bit confused on the timings.

Could you tell us when the booking was done?

When the deposit was paid?

When did the government rules changed?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Steve,

It’s tough to be certain because the story keeps slightly changing. The way I am reading the timeline it appears to me that it was open when the initial contract was signed, but was closed when Cme asked to include his father and Andrew and the outfitter asked for more money and a new contract.

EDIT: I said it was closed above, but I actually believe it was known that it was going to be closed at that point.

I never prompted any payments and would not have endorsed the full payments when the norm is a percentage of the daily rates? Why an earth would I dedicate a season to an area that was going to be closed?

Andrew, as far as I am concerned, the person who has received the money is responsible to pay it back.

It seems we are all a bit confused on the timings.

Could you tell us when the booking was done?

When the deposit was paid?

When did the government rules changed?

I also have to wonder who recommended Ibi to Corey? Also, who introduced Ibi to Corey? Finally, had Corey ever heard of Ibi prior to this recommendation?

In my opinion whomever pitched the hunt to CME would be the first one I'd be looking to resolve the issue even if that person didn't see the physical payment(s).
Who initialy quoted CME the hunt cost, location ect?
CME got the shaft and worse yet (I strongly suspect) his funds were used to repay others.

This whole thing is shady as hell. Sure hope CME recoups his funds soon but doublful, unfortunately.

He’ll recoup the funds when Ibi takes in enough deposits from other hunters to keep the pyramid afloat…