quote:

I think that you have severely misunderstood my positions.

Sorry, I am not STUPID in spite of what some believe!

Either hunters as a Group find common ground on the issues or we all lose, there is No Other Options!!!!!

Why not answer my question about comparing the number of Americans hunting in Africa and the amount of $$$ they spend in an average year versus the number of Americans hunting White Tail Deer in an average year and the amount of $$$ they spend?

You nor ANY of your "Buddies" want to address that because you know the answer!

As I pointed out to you and everyone else, more people on AR support Legal Hunting Methods than support "Ethics", and No Game Agency is going to even ATTEMPT to enforce non-legislated Ethical Standards.

One last question Gremlin are you comfortable with ANY hunter losing the ability to hunt the species of their choice and in the manner they choose as long as it is a LEGALLY accepted method?

Just an observation regarding hunting. Every hunter I have known has a extremely strong relationship with their sons and daughters.
It is an event that you may and will share with your family.
The children join in the event away from TV's and cellphones.
They might actually realize there are incredible sunsets and stars in dark areas (Southern hemisphere) away from the city lights. Warming around a campfire on a chilly night and trading stories.
Following bird dogs and watching them work.
So much more than harvesting a quarry.
Trecking to areas some human may have never touched before.
Sharing the experience with those immediately around you.
I am 61 years old and I can honestly say my trip to Africa was the best get away of my life and my wife agrees.
I told her that when her grandchildren get old enough you have that story to tell. Not everyone has experienced an African Safari!
Going to Europe, Asia or the Islands are as common as going to the movies these day.

EZ

quote:

Not everyone has experienced an African Safari!

And not everyone has experienced a Moose Camp in Newfoundland or Musk Ox hunting above the Arctic Circle or watching the sun go down over the Grand Mesa in western Colorado.

Are you saying that unless a person has hunted Africa, they really are not a HUNTER??????

Does a families weekend in a Texas Deer Camp in November with a child that has killed their first deer does not mean anything?

Does hunting or not hunting Africa seperate "Real Hunters" from Fudd's?????

Geez Randall, I give you a calm, reasoned response and all of a sudden it's as if I'm speaking to my crazy sister.

I don't know how much the average whitetail deer hunter spends. I also don't know the price of tea in China.

What part of "I have not advocated the banning of any type of hunting" did you not understand?

Was I unclear when I said that I don't expect ANYONE to do as I say or do as I do?

Finally a game agency enforces laws not ethics. Perhaps in all of this excitement you forgot that.

Maybe people are right, maybe you do have a reading comprehension problem.

Good day sir, I have a safari to prepare for. Which after all is why I read the "African Big Game Hunting" forum.

Well, it looks like if a person is put in the right situation they will actually speak their mind!

What you seem to overlook is that there ARE members of Accurate Reloading that openly state they want to see some forms of LEGAL HUNTING outlawed!

You also seem to overlook the concept that some AR members actually believe that ETHICS need to be enforced over LEGAL METHODS!!!

You can get as mad as you PLEASE, but do you deny that if hunters Do Not stick together, we will all lose in the end!

Do you not see or understand that hunters can not continue finding ways of dividing themselves or do you not worry about the future of hunting?

You aren't my enemy, I am not yours. We both care about hunting and I do not believe EITHER of us want to see ANY hunter lose the ability to hunt the species of their choice as long as it is done in a Legally Accepted Manner, but look around and you will see that some members of this site honestly do and admit that they would support the closure of some types of hunting.

I am not gpoing to apologise for trying to get people to open their eyes and minds and understasnd that hunters have to unite and support any and ALL "Legal Hunting Methods", because if we start picking and choosing, it will not turn out good for any of us!

Well folks, I'm going to hunt as long as I can no matter whether it pleases anyone here or anyplace else!

I abide by the law, and the rules set by the game people. So I don't give a flying crap if anyone dislikes that fact!

.........................................................................Carry on! Mac

quote:

Well folks, I'm going to hunt as long as I can no matter whether it pleases anyone here or anyplace else!

I abide by the law, and the rules set by the game people. So I don't give a flying crap if anyone dislikes that fact!

It is really a shame that hunters and hunting has reached a point where hunting in a legally accepted manner is viewed as being wrong, by people that claim to be hunters!

What is the real problem?

Have us older hunters lost sight of the idea that methods and manners that we vgrew up with and are still legal are no longer acceptable to todays hunters?

One other thought, who is going to be in the field with each and every hunter, enforcing the Ethics Rules, if they are implemented?

. . . another good thread Crazified. Pity.

Jines, why don't you take it up with Saeed and Don?

As far as I understand the workings of this place each and every member has the ability to comment and express their opinion on each and every subject being discussed.

No Sir, I do not agree with you or Dogcat on the issue of Legalities versus Ethics, and I do not believe that I am the only one that feels that way!

So why don't you contact Don and Saeed and see if you can force them into censoring me!

If they choose to do that, it is their decision and you will be Big Man On Campus!

I just do not, nor ever will believe that presenting ourselves to non-hunters as having a High Standard of Ethics will sway them either way, but that you and those that believe as you seem to be apparently willing to support the closure of methods/mannersa of LEGAL hunting that you do not agree with, will find that you do not have the support of hunters in general and NO game department in America at least, will try and implement or enforce a "Standardized Code Of Ethical Behavior For Hunters", simply because WHO will establish that code!

The specific thread is on the subtopic, African Big Game Hunting.
The remarks are in parallel to that topic.
No relevance to your "assumptions" berating others that have not had the opportunity to venture there.
Not unlike a lot of folks on this forum, I was fetching doves for my dad when I was 5 years old. For me hunting is a passion I share with my family and friends wherever it may be.
And yes Africa was special and I only have great memories of that adventure. I would encourage those that do have the good fortune to experience it to do so.
Yeah I have shot moose. 3 to be exact and above the arctic circle but in Alaska and packed them out 30 years ago. On a budget of $2,500.00 total all in including flights to Kotzebue and bush pilot and tags. No guide, just a hunting partner. A tough three hunts and many memories there as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Not everyone has experienced an African Safari!

And not everyone has experienced a Moose Camp in Newfoundland or Musk Ox hunting above the Arctic Circle or watching the sun go down over the Grand Mesa in western Colorado.

Are you saying that unless a person has hunted Africa, they really are not a HUNTER??????

Does a families weekend in a Texas Deer Camp in November with a child that has killed their first deer does not mean anything?

Does hunting or not hunting Africa seperate "Real Hunters" from Fudd's?????

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:


I just do not, nor ever will believe that presenting ourselves to non-hunters as having a High Standard of Ethics will sway them either way,

Do you view “non-hunters” and anti-hunters as the same? I do not. I have presented myself to non-hunters, both in person and on non-hunting Internet forums, as an ethical hunter/conservationist. I have swayed far more non-hunters into understanding the value of hunting than losing them to the ranks of the anti-hunting fold.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Have us older hunters lost sight of the idea that methods and manners that we vgrew up with and are still legal are no longer acceptable to todays hunters?

Despite my better judgment I'm going to give this one last go.

Randall I can't believe how you can make this statement without some sense of irony!

I'm going to pick the time frame of 1950 to 1970. You were alive and hunting then but I was yet to be born.

Back then we didn't:

1. Hunt lions in enclosures, they were widely available on quota.

2. Build or buy rifles designed to hunt big game at 600 yards or more, we got closer.

3. Selectively breed game animals for color or size. A golden wildebeest back then would have been properly classified as a mutant.

4. Curt Gowdy et al weren't doing jumping high fives on American Sportsman.

5. Shoot whitetail deer under feeders, we hunted them.

6. Pay for awards to impress other inner circle members. If you really wanted such a thing there was the Weatherby Award. Which was and still is a true honor.

Those of us who believe that ethics play an important role in hunting would love to see things go back to this era. That's what is so ironic Randall, you believe that we are debating these issues because the "old ways" aren't good enough anymore? We want the old ways!

Back then we didn't have to worry about things like receiving death threats because you hunt. It wasn't necessary to frequently justify or explain why you hunted. And we certainly didn't need to go on ad nauseam about ethics; a code of sportsmanship was understood.

Unfortunately this is the new millennium and times have certainly changed. So we can either adapt to these changes and understand the new rules of engagement or wither away and die. I've got 40 maybe 45 years left and I'm not ready for the grave. I'm ready to hunt new places, meet new people and enjoy new experiences.

There are a lot of good things left. Let us not waste them, let us cherish and protect them.

In the immortal words of Forrest Gump, "that's all I have to say about that".

Thank You, only one small problem that you missed, is that some of those on here that have hunted Africa or do hunt Africa on a fairly regular basis, Do Berate those of us that haven't hunted Africa, and whether intentionally or not seem to have the belief that only those that have hunted Africa are real hunters!

If you do not feel that way, my apologies for lumping you in that group.

It seems like you are not one of those individuals that would/will willingly admit to wanting see Legal Forms of Hunting Outlawed!

I am merely trying to find out who actually supports hunting and who only supports the forms of hunting they enjoy.

If that bothers you, then maybe you have the ability to understand WHY hunters being openly willing to see certain LEGAL forms/methods/manners of hunting Outlawed, bothers the HELL out of me, and should bother anyone that loves to hunt!

Don't hunters as a group have enough enemies without alienationg each other???

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Thank You, only one small problem that you missed, is that some of those on here that have hunted Africa or do hunt Africa on a fairly regular basis, Do Berate those of us that haven't hunted Africa, and whether intentionally or not seem to have the belief that only those that have hunted Africa are real hunters!

I bolded the word “seem” here to make this point. That’s your perspective and opinion. I would like you to show me a specific example of someone saying “only those that have hunted Africa are real hunters”.

Jim

There is an old saying that the only time you end up seeing old friends is at weddings and funerals (mainly funerals).
About 6-7 years ago I began hosting a dove hunt out in west Texas for a group of customers that were close nit (about 8-10).
Today it has grown to over 40-50 with people bringing their kids. We have a big cookout after the hunt.
Friends and family!!
In Texas it is a long drought between the end of quail season and the beginning of dove season.
All the hunters are ready to dust off their shooting, irons. I just cannot turn people away. I just have to find larger tracks of land to hunt.
How is that for a positive post!

I actually expect over 50 this year and generally begin getting calls in June asking about the hunt details.
I even have other companies wanting to co host the event.
I guess now it is weddings, funerals and my dove hunt.....

EZ

quote:

I bolded the word “seem” here to make this point. That’s your perspective and opinion. I would like you to show me a specific example of someone saying “only those that have hunted Africa are real hunters”.

Simple, open your eyes and notice WHO are the ones stating that they would openly support the closure of certain hunting methods in America!

People that mainly/mostly hunt Africa!

Those that keep pushing "Ethics" over legalities, again those folks seem to mainly/mostly hunt Africa.

People that believe hunting a Leopard over a bait is perfectly ethical but hunting a whitetail at a timed feeder isn't! Aren't many free ranging Leopards in America.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and flies like a duck, it ain't a cat.

So, in actual words, no one has said it, but it is fairly hard to skip over the connections.

quote:

There is an old saying that the only time you end up seeing old friends is at weddings and funerals (mainly funerals).
About 6-7 years ago I began hosting a dove hunt out in west Texas for a group of customers that were close nit (about 8-10).
Today it has grown to over 40-50 with people bringing their kids. We have a big cookout after the hunt.
Friends and family!!
In Texas it is a long drought between the end of quail season and the beginning of dove season.
All the hunters are ready to dust off their shooting, irons. I just cannot turn people away. I just have to find larger tracks of land to hunt.
How is that for a positive post!

I actually expect over 50 this year and generally begin getting calls in June asking about the hunt details.
I even have other companies wanting to co host the event.
I guess now it is weddings, funerals and my dove hunt...

It is a good post, so with that said, to you which is more important supporting all forms of LEGAL hunting or supporting the closure of certain forms that are suppopsedly "Unethical" in the eyes of some individuals?

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:

As for Boddington he isn't all that doom and gloom about Africa. He periodically gives a presentation on the future of African hunting. His basic theme is that times change and hunting changes but new opportunities present themselves. He has written several times that he has been guilty of being unduly pessimistic in the past but doesn't subscribe to the theory that the end is near.

I heard Boddington’s presentation on this topic three or four years ago. It really is quite enlighting. He basically walks through the ebbs and flows of African hunting over a number of decades and argues for the premise that while the opportunities are different today than they were twenty years ago, for every door that has closed over that a period another door has opened. It was a very good presentation if he is still doing it and folks have the opportunity to catch it. I think we all tend to get too caught up in the moment.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:


So, in actual words, no one has said it,

That’s what I thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:


So, in actual words, no one has said it,

That’s what I thought.

Jim

You wasting your time discussing subjective versus objective statements with someone who cannot tell the difference between a subjective statement and a objective statement.

Mike

I too would like to see an example of someone being berated for not having hunted Africa. Quite the contrary, I have seen many examples of forum members offer encouragement and helping people make decisions and plan trips. In fact I have been the recipient of such generosity on many occasions. I come to this forum because there are many hunters here that have extensive experience with Africa. I would be foolish not to avail myself with such knowledge. I come to learn and share with people who have the same love that I do.

I hunt Africa because I simply love being there. It isn't just the hunting, in fact I have had many wonderful experiences in southern Africa that have nothing to do with hunting at all! Quite simply, I always hunt when I go to Africa but I never go to Africa just to hunt.

I have had the good fortune of being able to travel the world. I've made it to more than 40 countries and have been to every continent on Earth. However when I am pressed for an answer where my favorite place is my answer is always Africa.

One of the positive things in the hunting world today is the wide variety of safaris available in Africa. There is literally a hunt to fit every budget. Africa is definitely within the grasp of the average American hunter. Why more hunters don't go I don't know but those who want it can do it.

But the implication of the beliefs of those, including yourself in the responses that have been made are pretty clear.

The point is I do not want to see ANYONE that hunts Legally Any Where In The World, lose that ability.

I do not know what your stance is, but those that have stated that they would support the closure of certain forms of LEGALLY accepted hunting methods, all szeem to be folks that mainly hunt in Africa.

That seems more than simple coincidence.

The point you keep missing Gremlin is that the folks that stated that they would support the closure of legal forms of hunting here in America, mainly seem to hunt Africa.

The other point is, which is more important supporting any/all Legal forms/methodmanners of hunting world wide or picking and choosing what should be allowed on personal beliefs/attitudes, regardless of the affect or potential affect on other hunters.

I do not want to see ANYONE/ANYWHERE lose the ability to hunt the species they want as long as it is legal to hunt and the form/method/manner they are using is legal.

There are hunters on here that can not make that same statement.

It is not a situation of Africa versus America, it is a simple matter of hunters versus hunters and that hurts all of us.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
But the implication of the beliefs of those, including yourself in the responses that have been made are pretty clear.

The point is I do not want to see ANYONE that hunts Legally Any Where In The World, lose that ability.

I do not know what your stance is, but those that have stated that they would support the closure of certain forms of LEGALLY accepted hunting methods, all szeem to be folks that mainly hunt in Africa.

That seems more than simple coincidence.

That’s your perspective. I have seen you say you could never afford to hunt Africa. I could easily jump to the conclusion you think those of us who have must be rich. I don’t want to believe that to be true of you but I could see where someone might SEEM that is where you are coming from. That Sir, is an example of perspective.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:


So, in actual words, no one has said it,

That’s what I thought.

Jim

You wasting your time discussing subjective versus objective statements with someone who cannot tell the difference between a subjective statement and a objective statement.

Mike

We’ll see.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
The point you keep missing Gremlin is that the folks that stated that they would support the closure of legal forms of hunting here in America, mainly seem to hunt Africa.

The other point is, which is more important supporting any/all Legal forms/methodmanners of hunting world wide or picking and choosing what should be allowed on personal beliefs/attitudes, regardless of the affect or potential affect on other hunters.

I do not want to see ANYONE/ANYWHERE lose the ability to hunt the species they want as long as it is legal to hunt and the form/method/manner they are using is legal.

There are hunters on here that can not make that same statement.

It is not a situation of Africa versus America, it is a simple matter of hunters versus hunters and that hurts all of us.

Yes, yes we know that you don't want to see any legal hunting banned anywhere. We get that, it isn't necessary to repeat a hundred times.

However, your most recent comment has to do with belittling those who don't hunt Africa. Jim and I responded to the question saying that nobody is belittling anyone for not having been to Africa. This has absolutely nothing to do with losing the ability to hunt. You keep repeating the same thing over and over when it has nothing to do with the question at hand!

I'll humor you. Why do those of us who have hunted Africa talk a lot about hunting bans here?

1. This is the Africa Hunting Forum!
2. The USFWS ruling in the news lately are bans
on importations from Africa.
3. Most of the controversies involving hunting getting public attention concern animals from Africa (rhino, lion and elephant)
4. Most of the social media attacks on hunters are because they hunted an African animal.

Do you see the common theme here? The reality is that the general public could care less about shooting deer over feeders in Texas. They do care about Cecil, ivory and rhino poaching. And invariably as hunters we get described as rich, white, fat American killers in the media. Now do you understand why I care about our image?

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
The point you keep missing Gremlin is that the folks that stated that they would support the closure of legal forms of hunting here in America, mainly seem to hunt Africa.

The other point is, which is more important supporting any/all Legal forms/methodmanners of hunting world wide or picking and choosing what should be allowed on personal beliefs/attitudes, regardless of the affect or potential affect on other hunters.

I do not want to see ANYONE/ANYWHERE lose the ability to hunt the species they want as long as it is legal to hunt and the form/method/manner they are using is legal.

There are hunters on here that can not make that same statement.

It is not a situation of Africa versus America, it is a simple matter of hunters versus hunters and that hurts all of us.

Yes, yes we know that you don't want to see any legal hunting banned anywhere. We get that, it isn't necessary to repeat a hundred times.

However, your most recent comment has to do with belittling those who don't hunt Africa. Jim and I responded to the question saying that nobody is belittling anyone for not having been to Africa. This has absolutely nothing to do with losing the ability to hunt. You keep repeating the same thing over and over when it has nothing to do with the question at hand!

I'll humor you. Why do those of us who have hunted Africa talk a lot about hunting bans here?

1. This is the Africa Hunting Forum!
2. The USFWS ruling in the news lately are bans
on importations from Africa.
3. Most of the controversies involving hunting getting public attention concern animals from Africa (rhino, lion and elephant)
4. Most of the social media attacks on hunters are because they hunted an African animal.

Do you see the common theme here? The reality is that the general public could care less about shooting deer over feeders in Texas. They do care about Cecil, ivory and rhino poaching. And invariably as hunters we get described as rich, white, fat American killers in the media. Now do you understand why I care about our image?

Bam! Hammer...nail...head. Good summation.

So just because non-hunters and USFW is operated by idiots, deer hunting over a timed feeder should be shut down, yes, I see it now African Hunters get their panties in a wad over something American Hunters have absolutely no control over, so it is their fault and should be punished, it all makes perfect sense now.

I apologise to everyone for not being able to comprehend the situation sooner!

USFW is afterall an American Government Agency and President Trump received a lot of votes from hunters because it was thought he would be good for the hunting community, especially those Americans that do enjoy hunting Africa. Unfortunately things do not seem to be turning out as it was BELIEVED they would.

The only problem I see however is that the opinions expressed by those wanting or admitting that they would support the closure of certain forms of hunting were not formed just since Trump was elected!!!!!!

I am not goinmg to stop preaching that hunters need to find common ground and support each other or we will all end up losing!

You may not care about the future of ALL LEGAL FORMS OF HUNTING, but I do and for some odd reason I do not believe I am the only member of AR or the only hunter that feels that way.

Unfortunately for the entire hunting community, hunting in Africa is going to face closures first and in reality there is very little that the hunting community can do to reverse what is taking place and that is sad but it is not a situation that hunters had anything to do with, with the possible exception of not really understanding President Trump thoughts or beliefs concerning hunting.

. . . head, meet brick wall.

Please carry on your evangelical work Jon.

No I’m done. No wonder I feel like a drink sometimes....

Against my better judgement....

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:

quote:

Have us older hunters lost sight of the idea that methods and manners that we vgrew up with and are still legal are no longer acceptable to todays hunters?

Despite my better judgment I'm going to give this one last go.

Randall I can't believe how you can make this statement without some sense of irony!

I'm going to pick the time frame of 1950 to 1970. You were alive and hunting then but I was yet to be born.

Back then we didn't:

1. Hunt lions in enclosures, they were widely available on quota.

2. Build or buy rifles designed to hunt big game at 600 yards or more, we got closer.

3. Selectively breed game animals for color or size. A golden wildebeest back then would have been properly classified as a mutant.

4. Curt Gowdy et al weren't doing jumping high fives on American Sportsman.

5. Shoot whitetail deer under feeders, we hunted them.

6. Pay for awards to impress other inner circle members. If you really wanted such a thing there was the Weatherby Award. Which was and still is a true honor.

Those of us who believe that ethics play an important role in hunting would love to see things go back to this era. That's what is so ironic Randall, you believe that we are debating these issues because the "old ways" aren't good enough anymore? We want the old ways!

Back then we didn't have to worry about things like receiving death threats because you hunt. It wasn't necessary to frequently justify or explain why you hunted. And we certainly didn't need to go on ad nauseam about ethics; a code of sportsmanship was understood.

Unfortunately this is the new millennium and times have certainly changed. So we can either adapt to these changes and understand the new rules of engagement or wither away and die. I've got 40 maybe 45 years left and I'm not ready for the grave. I'm ready to hunt new places, meet new people and enjoy new experiences.

There are a lot of good things left. Let us not waste them, let us cherish and protect them.

In the immortal words of Forrest Gump, "that's all I have to say about that".

From your comments, it's evident you weren't around during the time frame selected or else you would know that much of what you said is in error, especially about hunting whitetails.

I'm now 76 years old and cut my teeth hunting during those years cited. The ethics of some hunters were no better or worse than in the present.

And in 1965, I bougth a M70 .264 mag so I 'could reach out and touch something.' Though I never shot at an animal at 600 yds., the caliber had the desired effect -- a flatter trajectory and decent energy at longer ranges than either my 30/30 or 7x57 offered.

Now, carry on with the match.

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
I'll humor you. Why do those of us who have hunted Africa talk a lot about hunting bans here?

1. This is the Africa Hunting Forum!
2. The USFWS ruling in the news lately are bans
on importations from Africa.
3. Most of the controversies involving hunting getting public attention concern animals from Africa (rhino, lion and elephant)
4. Most of the social media attacks on hunters are because they hunted an African animal.

Do you see the common theme here? The reality is that the general public could care less about shooting deer over feeders in Texas. They do care about Cecil, ivory and rhino poaching. And invariably as hunters we get described as rich, white, fat American killers in the media. Now do you understand why I care about our image?

Tadaa. Not to speak for Crazy, but what you stated above is pretty much what he has been trying to get across in all these threads.

Anti-hunters AND NON-HUNTERS alike don't give a rat's ass about whitetail hunting in TX. But both factions have a problem with those who hunt Africa for nothing more than a trophy to stuff and hang on the wall. All the justifications about feeding the natives, conserving habitat and stopping poachers fall on deaf ears.

I can guarantee that if someone makes a post on Facebook about killing 15 African lions, (s)he will be drawn and quartered, even though every kill was legally done. And if baiting and/or spotlighting is mentioned, the uproar will be even greater.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

All the justifications about feeding the natives, conserving habitat and stopping poachers fall on deaf ears.

Simply not true. Survey data gathered by a professional survey research firm retained by the NRA shows clearly that with non-hunters why hunters hunt makes a definite difference. Over 80% approved of hunting for meat or wildlife management. In fact, more than 50% approved of hunting for sport. While less than 30% approved of hunting for trophies. Cleary public perceptions of hunters and their tactics and motivations matter. Which is why ethical and responsible hunting is important to the preservation of all hunting, African or otherwise.

Point remains!

Either hunters, World Wide, find a way to support each other or we will ALL lose in the long run.

I really do not see how any of us that hunt and honestly want to see hunting survive into the future, cannot understand that!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

All the justifications about feeding the natives, conserving habitat and stopping poachers fall on deaf ears.

Simply not true. Survey data gathered by a professional survey research firm retained by the NRA shows clearly that with non-hunters why hunters hunt makes a definite difference. Over 80% approved of hunting for meat or wildlife management. In fact, more than 50% approved of hunting for sport. While less than 30% approved of hunting for trophies. Cleary public perceptions of hunters and their tactics and motivations matter. Which is why ethical and responsible hunting is important to the preservation of all hunting, African or otherwise.

Hmmm, it sounds like you just verified what I said. Plus, your survey most likely concerned U.S. hunting.

Also, context is all important. The "While less than 30% approved of hunting for trophies" directly addresses what I stated about LIONS in the message you quoted from. You can also include elephants and leopards. And..I'd bet you $5000 right now that the percentage would drop MUCH lower when 15 lions are killed by one person for nothing more than a trophy and a "hero" photo, as some avatars show.

Oh, and also mention on that Facebook page that you (generic) shot four giraffes for bait. That should endear more of that 30 percent.

Lastly, I'm now 76 and have been writing about and fighting these battles for nearly 50 years. The anti-hunting segment is growing, not shrinking. Which mean non-hunters on the fence are changing sides.

Much of that has resulted because HSUS has hoodwinked the general public into thinking it's associated with the REAL Humane Society. To that end, they run cute and cuddly TV ads begging for money, which contributes to their war chest.

Then they go after the most vulnerable targets, such as TROPHY hunting for lions, elephants, leopards, etc. in Africa and lions and bobcats
in the U.S.

In regards to the latter, I posted this in the NA section here a while back. Pay attention to what I said about lion hunting here in AZ and recall how it also passed in CA several years ago. Also recall what happened to the spring bear hunt and baiting of such in CO. (When this issue was front and center, I personally interviewed the CDW biologist -- also an AVID hunter -- who FAVORED the ban. I wrote a lenghty article on it for major publication.)

************
From the American Big Game section.

This discussion reminds me of a couple adages that have been around for a while.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

One person's perversion is another's normality. (or...where normal sexuality ends and perversion begins)


As I said in an earlier reply, until someone can step up to the slippery slope and make a list of all the "unethical" practices as opposed to those that are just less sporting practices or merely boorish behavior (see croc segment in TROPHY), there will never be mass agreement. Because unlike laws which are objective, the above are all subjective.

Personally, I don't have much experience from hunting in 32 states, seven Canadian provinces, S. Africa, Mexico and New Zealand over the past 60 years.

BUT...I think I have a pretty good idea what is or isn't ethical and will go so far as to say that I've never been guilty of doing something unethical according to hunting ethics in general (see above adages) and my personal ethics.

I also have a good idea what types of hunting are less sporting than others for me personally, and on this count I'm guilty. Like thousands --- no millions -- of others, I've hunted planted birds, over bait, with dogs, in high-fenced areas, over feeders and from a blind. But see, I knew what it was, and I just never had the feeling I had to justify any of it to anyone, much less other "holier than thou" hunters who not only want to dictate how others hunt but what size or age the animals they take MUST be to make the cut. Unless it is detrimental to the species, it's no one else's business if a hunter takes a LEGAL animal.

Right now in AZ, flunkies from the HSUS are gathering signatures to get an initative on the Nov. ballot. It will effectively shut down the killing of mountain lions and bobcats, ala CA's law. And I predict it will become law because the majority of NON-hunters...along with the anti-hunters...will vote in favor when the TV ads blurt out they are killed merely for trophies.

This move has absolutely nothing to do with UNETHICAL hunting practices in the eyes of hunters. Yet the anti-huntng crowd and lots of non-hunters consider the use of dogs and killing lions for trophies only as unethical.

As an aside, while on mt. lion hunting, a couple decades back, a practice known as "will-call" lion hunting was taking place here in AZ. The guide would take his dogs, go hunt up a decent lion, tree it and have the dogs hold it at bay. Then the guide would call a paying client to come shoot the cat. Sometimes, it would be an overnight operation. The AZG&FD finally outlawed it, mandating that a hunter must be part of the actual chase.

For me, this is a prime example of an unethical practice, both on the guide's and the hunter's part.

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Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

The anti-hunting segment is growing, not shrinking. Which mean non-hunters on the fence are changing sides.

Precisely, and much of that has resulted because of irresponsible and questionable actions by hunters, like canned lion hunting, Cecil, the crocodile hunter in Trophy, that are then used by groups like HSUS, PETA and others to paint all hunters with the same broad brush. Which is why we need to get our own house in order and start emphasizing the importance of ethical and responsible hunting. To be clear, we are our own worse enemy . . . not because we fail to stand united . . . but because we, through the actions of fellow hunters, engage in ethically questionable conduct that is then used to portray all of hunting in a negative light. That is what has resulted in the shift in public attitudes, our own tone deaf approach to the implications of some of the "legal activities" we engage in as hunters. It is beyond serious debate at this point that ignoring public perceptions is done at our own peril.

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but because we, through the actions of fellow hunters, engage in ethically questionable conduct that is then used to portray all of hunting in a negative light.

The ONLY "PEOPLE" questioning supposedly "Ethical Conduct" by hunters, are HUNTERS!!!!!

The overwhelming MAJORITYof folks opposed to hunting, do so because hunters are Killing animals because they ENJOY IT, not because they have to.

Those that want hunting stopped do not care about our "ETHICS", but some hunters are willing to alienate other hunters simply over the misguided belief that public opinion can be swayed and will cause them to look upon us more favorably if we behave in a more "Ethical" manner.

That very attitude is what is going to help those that want hunting stopped, WIN!

I believe the point that Mr. Jines is making is aimed at non-hunters not anti-hunters.

My ethics are my ethics, do what you want until your actions starts imposing on my rights and that is when I have an obligation to speak. Over the years I have engaged non-hunters in conversation at my home, at airports (there are a couple of memorable experiences), at shooting matches, etc. They all have been interested in the conservation, humanitarian, and financial aspects of hunting in Africa and at home. When they understand "if it pays it stays" there is more support for hunting. Even in ultra-liberal southern California my youngest sister has explained to some of her very liberal friends the benefits of hunting, sometimes it fall on deaf ears, sometimes it does not. If this is not a good message the DSC needs to remove its video in support of hunting (it is on a current active thread)

Which brings me to my point. I can defend every hunt I take, not that everybody will agree with me, but at least there is a good argument to put forth. I truly believe in the conservation benefits of hunting in Africa, which makes it is easy for me to speak to. But when certain types of hunting are seen as nothing but blood lust and there is NO reasonable way to defend them, it is our right to raise an objection, because at that point your actions are affecting me.

It amazes me how many people will not even discuss ethics. This is the NRA's Code of Ethic for Hunters:

I will consider myself an invited guest of the landowner, seeking his permission, and so conducting myself that I may be welcome in the future.
I will obey the rules of safe gun handling and will courteously but firmly insist that others who hunt with me do the same.
I will obey all game laws and regulations, and will insist that my companions do likewise.
I will do my best to acquire those marksmanship and hunting skills, which insure clean, sportsmanlike kills.
I will support conservation efforts, which can assure good hunting for the future generations of Americans.
I will pass along to younger hunters the attitudes and skills essential to a true outdoor sportsman.


I have read several times how guns owners stick together no matter what. That is a load of BS, there are extremes from anything should be legal including fully automatic weapons to the opposite end of the spectrum that all semi-automatics should be banned. The NRA does a good job of holding the line but its members and non members are all over the place.

Same goes for anti-hunters, they do not all agree. You have everything from the vegan types, the animals are better than humans types, plain old anti-hunting, etc.

It would not be a stretch to say that 95% of hunters agree on about 95% of what we do 95% of the time. But we spend about 95% of the time bitching about the 5% of what we disagree upon.

We share the same goal to continue hunting.

Clean up our act publicly a bit, spread the word of conservation, support an organization that supports hunting, get involved politically, get your local DSC or SCI chapter involved in your community, get our youth active in the outdoors and we may just have a chance.

Thank you Mike, very well written post.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Which is why we need to get our own house in order and start emphasizing the importance of ethical and responsible hunting. To be clear, we are our own worse enemy . . . not because we fail to stand united . . . but because we, through the actions of fellow hunters, engage in ethically questionable conduct that is then used to portray all of hunting in a negative light.

It's always fun to read your replies, especially when they are more than some of your sarcastic attacks on someone.

As you did in the last reply, you pick one tiny sentence and ignore the rest that makes your stance appear a bit goofy.

Sooo... Although I expect a typical tap dance around it, I'll ask the question anyway. Do you think any one individual should be permitted to kill more than a dozen lions or is that not "ethically questionable" in your mind?

But I'll play your game and cite one "ethically questionable conduct that is then used to portray all of hunting." It's an easy target.

All baiting and spotlighting for lion or leopard in Africa should be banned. And of course, this includes any pre-baiting that's done before a client's plane touches down. As someone mentioned when denigrating hunting whitetails over feeders, "get your ass out and hunt."

Now, let's hear all the rationalizations and justifications.