Man I sure do miss those days! Everyone talking about their upcoming safari, talking gear, rifles, ammunition. MJines would usually be ele hunting right now or just back. Will Parks talking about where he and Theirry were headed. Dave Fulson telling us about Chewore and up coming shows. Bwanamich talking about increasing liom populations. Adam Clements posting all kinds of neat pictures from Tz. Ivan Carter giving talks about increasing ele populations. Wonderful pics of huge Botswana bulls. Johan Calitz and Jeff Rann conducting safaris in magical places around the Okavango delta. I remember Andrew first joining and letting us follow along with the building of Royal Kafue. Aaron Neilson going on another lion hunt or just telling us about he and Richie Bell-Cross’s exploits. Back when you could always count on Steve Arensberg and/or Andy Drook to stir up some fun controversy or Todd Williams to type a page long post on his take of things.

Things sure have changed.

Today we just pop on to see if the other shoe has dropped.

What happened? How did things go to hell so quickly?

A decade ago...the African Hunting front page would refill daily with new posts. Today...nothing left to talk about.

I wish we as a collective group could come together, make a difference, start things back in the right direction. I miss those times. I think we could do it if we united and tried.

A lot of damn truth in those comments Lane. Something for all of us, myself included, to think about.

Times have changed - People have changed, and it is only going to get worse.

Lane look at some of the conversations/discussions that have taken place during the past year.

I joined the site in March 2006, you joined in December 2006, right at 9 months apart and I can remember when me and you really had a problem with each other.

Thankfully that has changed, but in looking at the site in general it appears to me that for some reason people on here are or seem to be a lot quicker to become combative instead of trying to understand that everyone is entitled to their own individual beliefs on an issue.

Add to that for those of you that hunt Africa the incidents and attitudes that many people have adopted concerning hunting.

I will tell one thing to always remember.

There is nothing whatsoever you can do to the changing society around us.

And if you are like me, a lot of these changes boggles my mind, and make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

But, we can still live with this, and enjoy whatever we wish to do.

I travel quite a bit, and have been for so many years.

In the old days travelling was a pleasure - still is, once you are on the plane - but bloody miserable at airports.

What I see at some security checks just blows my mind.

My family keep reminding me to keep quiet!

The daily news one reads every day just shows how our society has taken a turn for the worse.

What I bet many of us here - regardless of nationality or race - used to as normal and acceptable has become unacceptable, and the freaks actions has become the norm.

Nothing we can do about it on a personal level.

But, we can still pretty well do whatever we wish, it just involves jumping through some hoops!

Photobucket destroyed a lot of ar. Hunt reports got neutered.

Botswana closed for elephant

Tanzania elephants got poached and shot out for all the high end outfitters - so much for hunting as conservation

Anti hunters taking down visible hunters - doctors, CEOs, dentists etc.

Africa hunting is not what it was 10 years back.

I would not post a picture will a dead lion, leopard, elephant or rhino on ar - it is not improbable that you will become a public figure or have your picture circulated on social media.

Mike

Yep society has certainly changed including the hunting fraternity, people have become very me, me, me, greedy and entitled in no particular order.

Some loud thinking from up North..


1. Maybe AR should make it more easier to write reports, put in photoes... by other words have an update in set up/design/computer language etc

2. The way AR is constructed I feel it is difficult in a hasty world to write stories etc and I end up with short comments..

3. One fellow hunter has just been attacked by journalists etc for posting a report here on AR showing dead animals etc... this also leads to less reports on AR in the long run. Maybe we should think about making AR more closed to a hunter community by paying a small fee...

I do not mean to criticize but just a respond to this thread. I know that Saeed has put up AR for free and let everyone use it for free ( as far as I have understood ) but maybe we should look at an update and make it more " modern ". I do not have the solution by now, just asking...


Do not piss on me for trying guys ...


Morten

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Some loud thinking from up North..


1. Maybe AR should make it more easier to write reports, put in photoes... by other words have an update in set up/design/computer language etc

2. The way AR is constructed I feel it is difficult in a hasty world to write stories etc and I end up with short comments..

3. One fellow hunter has just been attacked by journalists etc for posting a report here on AR showing dead animals etc... this also leads to less reports on AR in the long run. Maybe we should think about making AR more closed to a hunter community by paying a small fee...

I do not mean to criticize but just a respond to this thread. I know that Saeed has put up AR for free and let everyone use it for free ( as far as I have understood ) but maybe we should look at an update and make it more " modern ". I do not have the solution by now, just asking...


Do not piss on me for trying guys ...


Morten

I very much second the ease of putting in photos...as ie. on Africahunting....Saeed, what do you think..?

.

I don't think that it is an "AR issue" but rather society has become excessively PC and controlling. The media feasts on negative news.

Yesterday a youtube video of a gone wrong cash in transit heist in Jhb showing one of the criminals getting shot in the street went viral! I don't want to see things like that and deleted it at the start. It's too easy to press send or write a short negative comment. If you had to write a letter, stamp and address it and post it only a few would bother.

Hunting is on the back foot. We all as hunters need to come together, support each other globally in word and action and accept a failure or short coming here and there. Only then if we can get unity in global numbers and significant funding to back it does the future of hunting as we know and enjoy it today stand a slim chance of success!

So what are we going to do about it?

.

I refer to this time of year as pre season blues.

I would say that many do not post hunt reports or pictures here due to the stress of being picked on by antis/activists and I have hunted many that simply want to keep the memories to themselves. Sure I can post an image of myself alongside animals for marketing and advertising purposes but nowadays I am fully aware of the ramifications of public scrutiny. This its self is a bit of a dampener.

On the other hand I am dealing with a good numbers of hunters who are preparing for safari this year and their excitement and enthusiasm does not wain.

Remember the days you would buy a good knife and show it off to all your mates in the local pub?

quote:

So what are we going to do about it?

Personally I would like to see the likes of Conservation Force supported to the hilt. And a few bucks their way does make a difference. That John Jackson guy is a real life super hero.

With the changes to photo Bucket, i just got lazy about opening up the account or starting a new one. Id betg this is the case with many here and just add the attacks from the Antis.
Now I spend more time at "private" hunting groups via Facebook.
I also havent been to Africa for a few years now, now that a little girl is in my life.
I do get a few weeks each season chasing the Water Buffalo and Banteng in the remote north of Australia with old style camps which I thoroughly enjoy.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

So what are we going to do about it?

Personally I would like to see the likes of Conservation Force supported to the hilt. And a few bucks their way does make a difference. That John Jackson guy is a real life super hero.

Not easy for Europeans to fund Conservation Force... they should work on a banksolution, web pages, instagram etc etc to get the Hunters together in a front against the antis etc etc..

They should possible also establish a Anti Poaching movement... facebook, instagram,,, etc and get funding in from Hunters and others and send this funding ti the anti poaching units in Africa. They could organize this in a way that we hnters can meet the Public and antis telling the stories of what we put in of Money and effort to conserve..

Just some ideas...


Morten

Biggest thing is what happened to government agencies especially USFW, where anti hunters rule
If we hunters were minorities, it may have been different ( as we could be looked at as indigenous hunters )but in today’s world, white male gets the blame not matter what and that’s just what it is
Hate to say it like that in this PC world where conservatism is considered bad, but again it is what it is

When it comes to pics, I said that before, I will not post any simply because it seems complicated and I don’t wanna whine about it

In today’s technological world, there is no excuse for not being able to just click on pic
At the same time, Saeed gives us this site at his own benevolence so no complains from me in the end...

Society happened. We can’t blame this on AR or Photobucket.

We are a tiny sliver of the pie. As trophy hunters, we are an extremely insignificant demographic in the eyes of the world. An easy target, someone with, literal, blood on our hands, in their eyes.

The ant-hunter holds a self imposed moral high ground, one, easy to grant to themselves, and simple to hold in any argument. They don’t have to listen to our fact based arguments. We are guilty. We kill. Just look at the picture.

They successfully organized against us through the almighty Facebook. We underestimated the power of hate and the simplicity of a click and typing a few words.

It’s the world that changed. Sure, AR changed too. We became experts on Lion and Buffalo judging while allowing immature animals of every other species a pass because we are too damn ignorant to criticize them.

Saeed, you hosted the best hunting talk forum on the internet. You have created a place for people to come meet and talk. I have made friendships here that have changed my life. Made friends that I will keep forever (I mean real friends that I actually see in person).

So, yes, AR changed, I have been absent for a couple years until a friend called me this week and told me about Pasanisi’s thread, so I came back to check it out.

I always come back. It’s the best forum on the net.

Thank you again Saeed. You can’t begin to know the positive effects your contributions have had on so many peoples lives.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I refer to this time of year as pre season blues.

I would say that many do not post hunt reports or pictures here due to the stress of being picked on by antis/activists and I have hunted many that simply want to keep the memories to themselves. Sure I can post an image of myself alongside animals for marketing and advertising purposes but nowadays I am fully aware of the ramifications of public scrutiny. This its self is a bit of a dampener.

On the other hand I am dealing with a good numbers of hunters who are preparing for safari this year and their excitement and enthusiasm does not wain.

Remember the days you would buy a good knife and show it off to all your mates in the local pub?

Remember the days you would buy a good knife and show it off to all your mates in the local pub?



Those pub days are gone I'm afraid mate ...


The top line in this thread said he was missing the stories etc... and he points out that several storytellers have quit telling stories... but we know that people are still hunting ! I think it is possible to make stories, but AR should think of modernising itself and maybe organize the whole thing a little bit differently. That was my point ! With regard to the antis and journalists ... I think some organization, like Conservation Force must take the lead and invite hunters to support funding and make a front in soscial media etc...



Morten

It’s not the stories I miss...it is the atmosphere from which those stories were generated that I miss.

The camaraderie, experience, and enthusiasm we shared as the hunting fraternity.

We used to be the “can do” people...that is the attitude that got me to Africa on my first safari.

I am ready to go back at least to that attitude. Unite, do what we can, be PROactive vs. REactive which is what we have become and I am as guilty as anyone.

With the mind-power available on AR we could salvage what is left...if we chose to.

The anti-hunters are also a tiny sliver of the overall demographic. They just make a lot of noise but we overestimate the impact they have. Most non-hunters think Animal Rights people are also loony. If we retreat to our own little cave then our side of the story doesn't get told. Keep posting those photos (just make sure they are mature animals) and telling those stories.

I’m still here reading every day. I don’t post a lot partly because I work directly for my brother in law who owns the company. I dont want to fall into the “you’re biased because you work for your family or this sounds like an outfitter advertisement” post. I have been here many years and a couple years before they changed the forum format and reset our member dates.

I will continue to be here and read and contribute when I can as I enjoy keeping up with everyone.

Cheers!

This is sad to read. I have been a member for 11 years and indeed it has changed a lot. I know that I will never post another hunting report. I won't pull down the ones that are up but I won't continue to put a target on my back.

Last year, the HSUS was trying to grab information in a freedom of information grab that seemingly only targeted me and one other member on this forum. I can't afford the attention.

I miss the information, input and comradeship. I have made some genuine friends from here.

I do not know what the future holds, but I am laying down some professional duties so that I may ramp up my efforts to fight for our way of life.

Most choose to sit on the sideline and whine here or on Facebook. Not my style. I intend to go down swinging.

Jeff

Ya, lots of changes over the past 10 years - some good, some not so much!

Undoubtedly the sentiment towards African hunting in particular has definitely changed....heck I haven't hunted Africa myself in 2.5 yrs. I hate to see it, but there's no denying it! I hate to see / hear guys will no longer post hunt reports - photos, that's the best part of AR. But.....I totally understand, its too easy nowadays for the "public" to potentially use that stuff against a biz owner, etc. A lot of guys say its not worth it...and who can argue with em? We seem to have lost a lot of that zest for "safari", unfortunately!

I sincerely hope we can all get things back on the right track...but its gonna be an uphill battle. I'd like to think I have a few more lion hunts left in me....

quote:

They just make a lot of noise but we overestimate the impact they have.

I have to disagree with that thought, because from what I have been seeing is the Anti's have changed their tactics over the years and instead of the highly emotional displays and antics that PETA used, the real enemies HSUS and their allies have been able to get recognition by members of the American government and have acquired some actual political power.

They also changed tactics and decided that even though it will take longer, they realized that they had/have a better chance of accomplishing their goal of ending hunting by concentrating/focusing on one or two Premeir species at this point in time Lion and Elephant.

They have adopted the concept of winning thru attrition.

In a round-a-bout way that may be a contributing factor as to why the tone of AR has changed, we are all aware or should be, that the future of hunting and not just in Africa is not looking real healthy.

Add to that we are all aging and as individuals we know that the time when all we will have is memories is creeping up on us.

All we can do is run till we run out of time, shake our heads and say "It Was One Hell Of A Ride"!

You are echoing thoughts I have been having as well.
Part of it is just being a madala, wanting things the way it used to be.
Part is because younger people don’t use traditional forums, doing social media instead.
Unfortunately, a big part is that hunters are under assault these days.
Part of the advantage of being an old guy is that I don’t need to worry about business consequences, so I can just keep on keeping on.

Times are changing.

Moreover, we are growing older one day at a time.

While only a member for a short time, I was reading or lurking in the shadows for a period before I joined.

I also like the story of adventures by members. I always enjoy the short bites into their hunt. Sometimes thinking that was close to what I have experienced.

Every year we have a fall party, I was doing this way before I met my wife. It all started as a game fest in the early 80’s. Making dishes from game animals taken that year. It could be a wide range from Ducks, Geese, Turkey, Antelope, Deer either WT or MD, Caribou, Moose & Elk. In addition, everyone had a great time. With A few beers or cocktails to wash it all down.

This past year we had invitees to our afternoon party wanting to know if any of the cooked dishes were bush meat, wow now we have to explain what each ingredient is in the dishes. These friends have been coming for years. So yes, times have changed.

I like to stay positive if possible.

In my opinion Zambia and Mozambique show a lot of potential going forward.

We are in better shape than 2 weeks ago regarding imports. If “case by case” actually turns into “area by area” that again is a good thing. Case in point would be Coutada’s 9,10,11 and 14 in Mozambique. Those proven operators would (should) be given approvals instead of being tied down by a countrywide ban. Same could be said about BVC, Save, DAPU and others in Zim.

The newly created IWCC has their first meeting next Friday. Lets see what happens.

I am still on AR daily and enjoy corresponding with you all.

Yeah. Sums it up rather nicely.

BTW does anybody want to buy a left handed elephant rifle? Searcy 470 double.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I will tell one thing to always remember.

There is nothing whatsoever you can do to the changing society around us.

And if you are like me, a lot of these changes boggles my mind, and make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

But, we can still live with this, and enjoy whatever we wish to do.

I travel quite a bit, and have been for so many years.

In the old days travelling was a pleasure - still is, once you are on the plane - but bloody miserable at airports.

What I see at some security checks just blows my mind.

My family keep reminding me to keep quiet!

The daily news one reads every day just shows how our society has taken a turn for the worse.

What I bet many of us here - regardless of nationality or race - used to as normal and acceptable has become unacceptable, and the freaks actions has become the norm.

Nothing we can do about it on a personal level.

But, we can still pretty well do whatever we wish, it just involves jumping through some hoops!

I agree to a large extent with Saeed on this. Society has always waxed and waned. It is often a function of leadership or crisis or whatever. Social media has been wonderful and a curse in this over connected world.

On AR - I like it and will stay. Many of you may or may not remember a guy named Carmelo who tried to bully his way around on AR and then claimed he would start his own forum. He flashed and failed. There have been many others as well. Civility is a good thing and I would suggest we aim for civility in dealing with each other.

Name calling and threats are not part of what this is supposed to be but when I read the political forum, the world has gone to less civility and grace. I have decided to bail out on threads that degrade. The recent Hunters vs Hunters thread is a case in point. I don't like being called stupid or elitist or whatever when the case is far from it.

So, I came here many years ago to learn and it fueled my passion to hunt and gave me info I needed. I also learned how to weed out the BS'ers from the folks that are real hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

Civility is a good thing and I would suggest we aim for civility in dealing with each other.

Name calling and threats are not part of what this is supposed to be but when I read the political forum, the world has gone to less civility and grace. I have decided to bail out on threads that degrade. The recent Hunters vs Hunters thread is a case in point. I don't like being called stupid or elitist or whatever when the case is far from it.

So, I came here many years ago to learn and it fueled my passion to hunt and gave me info I needed. I also learned how to weed out the BS'ers from the folks that are real hunters.

I agree with this, but it is going to be a recurring issue here, when the owner of this board goes over to the political forum to instigate arguments, insults, etc. It's a poor example IMO. People will screw up a one car funeral, and as long as humans are involved it will be so.

I started this thread NOT as a note of degradation of AR...but as a note to remember how we as a fraternity used to operate and what we expected.

It is a thread dedicated to reflection on how we got to the point we are today IN HOPES that we might rectify it.

I to am also an eternal optimist albeit with a healthy does of pragmatist and realist thrown in. Where there is a will...there is a way.

I would like to hear suggestions on how to move our identity forward in a positive light.

I attempted this before with the assistance of my good friend Aaron Neilson with the Lion Conservation Task Force, Inc...a non-profit organized to keep the lion huntable.

I will start with the same idea we had back in 2010...embrace pro-hunting scientists and work with them...even when it hurts.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

I will start with the same idea we had back in 2010...embrace pro-hunting scientists and work with them...even when it hurts.

Fair enough. So in the same spirit of brainstorming on ideas to move the identity of hunters forward in a positive light . . . embrace fair chase standards akin to those promulgated by the Boone and Crockett Club that reflect a high standard of ethical and responsible conduct by hunters . . . even though that may mean moving away from certain activities heretofore engaged in by hunters.

Mike,
Could you please post the criteria B&C has laid out.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I started this thread NOT as a note of degradation of AR...but as a note to remember how we as a fraternity used to operate and what we expected.

It is a thread dedicated to reflection on how we got to the point we are today IN HOPES that we might rectify it.

I to am also an eternal optimist albeit with a healthy does of pragmatist and realist thrown in. Where there is a will...there is a way.

I would like to hear suggestions on how to move our identity forward in a positive light.

I attempted this before with the assistance of my good friend Aaron Neilson with the Lion Conservation Task Force, Inc...a non-profit organized to keep the lion huntable.

I will start with the same idea we had back in 2010...embrace pro-hunting scientists and work with them...even when it hurts.

Totally agree...

Conservation Force
Lion Conservation Task Force
Anti Poaching Task Force - if possible
Elephant Conservation Task Force - if possible

A system for funding from hunters
A system for funding the operation units in the Field ( Like CMS DAPU force that Conservation Force have contributed to as far as I know )

BUT also I would like to see AR more " user friendly " if I may put it that way



Morten

THE FAIR CHASE HUNTER:

• Knows and obeys the law, and insists others do as well
• Understands that it is not only about just what is legal, but also what is honorable and ethical
• Defines "unfair advantage" as when the game does not have reasonable chance of escape
• Cares about and respects all wildlife and the ecosystems that support them, which includes making full use of game animals taken
• Measures success not in the quantity of game taken, but by the quality of the chase
• Embraces the "no guarantees" nature of hunting
• Uses technology in a way that does not diminish the importance of developing skills as a hunter or reduces hunting to just shooting
• Knows his or her limitations, and stretches the stalk not the shot
• Takes pride in the decisions he or she makes in the field and takes full responsibility for his or her actions

[Boone and Crockett Club Principles of Fair Chase]

And I think that we should stop using the word TROPHY and just stick to the word HUNTING ...

Mike also has a very good point - ethical way of hunting. Fair chase etc... Important to have this loud and clear in our statements etc..


Morten

And the american hunters should get rid of organizations like SCI and NRA... they are just digging their own grave and Ours in the long run.

Or at least make them change some focus ...

No offend meant to anyone, but I do not see these two organizations do any good in an international perspecive..

The US hunters should also urge US organzations to work closer with Cites...


Morten

I will add this in the interest of creating a possible positive task we can work toward.

Is there some way to create a vocal group of hunters to apply pressure on the TV show carnival barkers that are filming and showing such hunter degrading drivel?

Since these shows are made for marketing items or services to hunters, you would think they would be responsive if they believed we would not buy their stuff if they market on shows we feel degrades hunting and hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
THE FAIR CHASE HUNTER:

• Knows and obeys the law, and insists others do as well
• Understands that it is not only about just what is legal, but also what is honorable and ethical
• Defines "unfair advantage" as when the game does not have reasonable chance of escape
• Cares about and respects all wildlife and the ecosystems that support them, which includes making full use of game animals taken
• Measures success not in the quantity of game taken, but by the quality of the chase
• Embraces the "no guarantees" nature of hunting
• Uses technology in a way that does not diminish the importance of developing skills as a hunter or reduces hunting to just shooting
• Knows his or her limitations, and stretches the stalk not the shot
• Takes pride in the decisions he or she makes in the field and takes full responsibility for his or her actions

[Boone and Crockett Club Principles of Fair Chase]

Similar to the Zambia's PH code of conduct.

I also think that to promote unity amongst ourselves we should address each other as 'brother'.

Lane, You and others make very good points and they are well stated, imo.

Well, just for fun I'm gonna tell the story of the time Andrew "Fairgame" Baldry, Bell-Cross and myself were hunting lions in Lunga Luswishi in 2007. Now mind you, the hunt at the time cost me $48k - which to me is a considerable amount of money, so obviously I want it going as smoothly as possible.

Well a few days into the hunt we hear these guys at this 300 acre photo camp (literally - they had 300 acres, what the heck are you gonna do with that???) down river 15 miles or so have been cutting down my lion baits at that end - pissing on them, throwing diesel on them, etc. The report is the white camp manager was ordering his guys to do so - and they told our guys, etc. Well, as you can imagine - we were none to happy about that. Especially considering they were illegally entering the GMA to do so!!!!

Good heavens....I thought Baldry was gonna blow a gasket, he's jumping around like a hound shi**ing a peach seed - I mean this guy is ready for war! Of course, so am I - and Bell-Cross is his same mild mannered self. Well Baldry and I insist we head there immediately - we find this little camp manager, and we feed him to the crocs. So we load up, and off we go with my girlfriend in tow. Of course she knows my willingness for a good ole fashion punch-up, Baldry is definitely ready for a scrap too - and she's freaking out that I'm going straight to a Zambian jail, never to be heard from again!

First thing we do is go to our baits, and sure enough - they had been cut down, tampered with, destroyed, etc. So the anger has only heightened now at this point, and even Bell-Cross is racing to the photo camp like its his job! Well like the word seems to do in the bush, the camp manager got word we were coming - and he had escaped to the other side of the river literally only minutes before we arrived! As we rocked up to the camp, I literally jumped off the truck hollering like an idiot - demanding to know who messed with our baits, and ready to grab the first guy by the head who gave any acknowledgement of this "heinous" act, with Baldry right behind me - mad as a hornet, screaming the local language at the camp staff! Looking back on it, its rather hilarious now - but at the time Andrew and I really thought we were gonna sort these dudes out!

Needless to say, nothing really happened - just a lot of loud conversation (mostly us yelling at them) and heck, I don't even know if they knew what the heck I was saying or not?
Regardless they knew we were upset, so several of the camp manager's guys told our scout and Richard's boys what had happened, how they were instructed to remove our baits - and who told them to do so. We informed them not to do it again, and went on our way!

Now at the end of the day, nobody here cares...I realize that. But I just wanted to lighten the mood with a goofy story, cause I hate to see a lot of us thinking about Africa the way we do now, versus how we did 11 years ago. Hopefully we'll see light at the end of the tunnel?

And no, I did not get a lion on that hunt! It was the only lion hunt I ever did with Bell-Cross (be it my hunt or with a client) where we didn't get a lion!

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
And the american hunters should get rid of organizations like SCI and NRA... they are just digging their own grave and Ours in the long run.

Or at least make them change some focus ...

No offend meant to anyone, but I do not see these two organizations do any good in an international perspecive..

The US hunters should also urge US organzations to work closer with Cites...


Morten

Morten - The NRA was never intended to be an international organization...period! The NRA - with its 5 million members is here to "protect / fight for" the rights of all U.S. citizens to keep and bear arms! The last thing any responsible, gun owning American would ever want is to abolish the NRA....ever! Unfortunately you get too much liberal / biased media in Europe, rather than the truth / facts.

We as Americans live with the greatest "freedoms" in the world, because of organizations like the NRA. I will never denounce the NRA, its intentions, or their continued good work. We Americans don't allow our government to trounce upon or rights / freedoms, and organizations like the NRA are here to ensure those rights are protected for generations to come.

No offense taken of course....but those who don't know / understand the freedoms we have here, will never understand why we Americans are so willing to fight to keep them! Freedom is never "FREE"!