quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
It is surreal how fragmented the hunting community has become - we have the ethical hunter, the legal hunter, the trophy hunter, the meat hunter, the traditional hunter, the long range hunter, the caned animal shooter, the farm/high fence/put and take shooter, the discriminate hunter, the volume shooter and the wilderness hunter - I'm sure I've missed some. And all parties are telling everyone else they have it right and everyone else is wrong.


Little wonder why the unified anti-hunters are winning.

This fragmentation happens all over the place. My thought is that it is because individualsn want to be closest to the top of the pyramid to gain some level of advantage/notoriety/status over others. Same goes for fishing. Are you a gear fisherman, or do you only use split bamboo, cat gut lines, hand tied dry flies? Also goes for climbers. Many have climbed Everest, but she’s the first Lesbian Japanese woman with a prosthetic to do it. Sounds like a joke, but if you pay attention you’ll see this type of thing Everywhere. We just pay a hell of a price for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
It is surreal how fragmented the hunting community has become - we have the ethical hunter, the legal hunter, the trophy hunter, the meat hunter, the traditional hunter, the long range hunter, the caned animal shooter, the farm/high fence/put and take shooter, the discriminate hunter, the volume shooter and the wilderness hunter - I'm sure I've missed some. And all parties are telling everyone else they have it right and everyone else is wrong.


Little wonder why the unified anti-hunters are winning.

Well everyone is going to have to smarten or face the unpleasant consequences.I think I've seen one or two intelligent opinions on this thread.The rest just convince me to why we are in this mess or so far behind in this fight.You can't win a fight with stupid people on your side.

quote:

Originally posted by AR MAN:
We are not fragmented we are diversified as hunters and that’s a great thing!

And that too is my point....we all do it for different reasons. I don't mean to insinuate folks don't contribute to their table fare via hunting, of course we do. But too many are now using the "I hunt for food" propaganda as a way to deflect criticism, while creating a narrative that's not truly accurate.

quote:

Sounds like a joke, but if you pay attention you’ll see this type of thing Everywhere. We just pay a hell of a price for it.

There is volumes of TRUTH in that one statement.

Way too many folks, regardless of the activity/HOBBY they get really involved in lose sight or have lost sight that in this world there is room for everybody to approach any activity in the manner they choose.

Just My Opinion, nothing else, but I firmly believe that the vast majority of Hunters, World Wide really do not care how any other hunter hunts as long as it is a Legally Accepted mannmer.

No one is fotrced to agree with any certain style or manner of LEGAL hunting, don't like it/don't agree with it, simple Do Not Do It!

Reality is however, the very LAST thing hunters as a group needs to even remotely contemplate, is supporting the closure of ANY Type of Legal Hunting, thereby reducing our numbers.

If one group/any group of hunters starts throwing other groups of hunters under the bus, we will be doing the anti's job for them.

Yes, it would be great if enough hunters could put enough Peer Pressure on those that like to act like Jack Asses when they make a kill, but it is simply a symptom of our modern society, and as as group we simply cannot shame these new hunters into cleaning up their act.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by AR MAN:
We are not fragmented we are diversified as hunters and that’s a great thing!

And that too is my point....we all do it for different reasons. I don't mean to insinuate folks don't contribute to their table fare via hunting, of course we do. But too many are now using the "I hunt for food" propaganda as a way to deflect criticism, while creating a narrative that's not truly accurate.

100%. The fact is, they have substituted meat for antlers. But they are still trophies. They just do t see t that way. The brilliant David Foster Wallace said “there is no such thing as atheism; everybody worships. It only a matter of what we choose to worship.” The mentality is the same, the object of our worship (trophy) may change.

Gentlemen - the point I’m trying to make is that the future of hunting is brighter than you may think and going forward we should never be placed in a position of defining exactly what kind of a hunter we are as hunters. The antis use this to pit all hunters against each other and it works great. I myself wear many different hunting hats from mostly meat hunting for elk moose in NA to trophy / billitong hunting in Africa. Heck I just recently got back from a Kazakhstan ibex Hunt where the local guides told me very simply if we didn’t come in to hunt ibex the sheep herders would have shot all the ibex out to make way for their sheep instead!! This sort of hunting is also part of the different hats in hunting/ conservation and the point is to not be forced into a narrow minded position as this is what’s truly the enemy!

quote:

Originally posted by AR MAN:
We are not fragmented we are diversified as hunters and that’s a great thing!

No, we're pretty much fragmented. There is simply nothing worse to me than the animosity we exhibit to one another on these forums for the world to see. As long as the methodology is legal, we should support one another without reservation. We are often our own worst enemies. JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by AR MAN:
We are not fragmented we are diversified as hunters and that’s a great thing!

No, we're pretty much fragmented. There is simply nothing worse to me than the animosity we exhibit to one another on these forums for the world to see. As long as the methodology is legal, we should support one another without reservation. We are often our own worst enemies. JMHO.

Ah but where would those with “ethics” better than you me be then??

I have been saying this all along, but that pesky “ethics” bit keeps tearing its head up.

We would winning half the battle if we kept our “ethics” to ourselves and behaved accordingly.

We should be supporting every form of hunting, as long as it is legal in that country.

i still come here for those very reasons, but also realize that the internet is just a place to engage your mouth anomalously before starting your brain

Saeed, the problem is that our behavior is driven by our ethics.....

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
Saeed, the problem is that our behavior is driven by our ethics.....

True.

But in this day and age, how much of what goes around you in society is acceptable to you?

In my case, very little really.

But I do not waste my time - like the idiotic antis - trying my best to stop others doing what they like to do.

What an excellent thread. Whenever I would think of something useful to say someone else would beat me to it. Lots of good comments by clear thinkers.

So now the subsistence hunter is being condemned as trying to mellow things about killing out to the antis...I doubt that.

Therein lies the problem we all need to deal with..I am a subsistence hunter, have been for at least 10 or so years and its not that complicated..Ive shot my share of trophies, my house if full of mounts..Ive had to eat stinking bull elk and rutting bucks for 30 years, Ive spent most ot my life as a trophy hunter, I physically can't do those requirements as well as I used to, and don't care, still love to hunt, still hunt and I suppose if a huge bull or buck jumped up in front of me I would shoot it if I wanted too, but probably not.

Judgement of folks we don't even know is not a good thing that we all have to deal with from time to time...and takes away from the pleasure of discussing guns, hunting and the things we love..Trashing gun scribes, authors of books, PHs and guides, is something jumped on a lot, and when in fact those folks have a world of experience in most cases..but to each his own, its mostly always been that way on the internet when the reader only get one side of the story..
Would it not be a better place to play if we just posted and had fun.

Ray I appreciate your post but I think that what Aaron is saying is that no one in the US can claim to be a subsistence hunter. In order for you to be a subsistence hunter it means that your only possible source of meat come from hunting.

quote:

No, we're pretty much fragmented. There is simply nothing worse to me than the animosity we exhibit to one another on these forums for the world to see. As long as the methodology is legal, we should support one another without reservation. We are often our own worst enemies. JMHO.

And it is a Damn Good opinion and one I supporet 100%.

Tony Mandile brought up this point, not in these exact words, but close enough to point out the Total Hypocrisy of some hunters!

Why is it perfectly OKAY and completely ACCEPTABLE to bait a Leopard, but not a White Tail?

WHY do some hunters believe baiting one species is fine and ETHICAL while baiting another is totally unethical and needs to be outlawed?

I can explain it real easily and quite succinctly, those wanting to hunt the one species have no problem doing it in that manner, while finding it completely wrong to hunt another species in that manner!

That is HYPOCRISY in its highest/most blatant form, and for those believing baiting Leopards is Ethical, while baiting White Tails isn't and openly admitting that that would support the outlawing of hunting White Tails in that manner, I can GUARANTEE that should push come to shove, there are more Texans hunting deer in that manner on the opening day of deer season, than ALL of the people hunting a Leopard over a bait in probably a 3 to 5 year period.

Now, hunters have to suppoprt each other against those wanting to take hunting away from us, we can either work to gather or we can see who can stop another groups ability to hunt!

Let us put some reality into the mix and compare thje amount hunters spend to hunt in Africa versus the amount deer Hunters alone spend in a year to hunt White Tails in North America, who will come out on the short end of that stick?

We either set aside the BS issues and support ALL LEGAL Forms/Methods of hunting, or we destroy hunting from within!

Randall,

Has there been anyone on this forum that has said "I want X type of hunting banned or outlawed?"

Laws establish the minimum acceptable level of behavior. Ethics help us make choices among legally permissible behaviors. The public will judge us not by whether we obey the law . . . that’s a given. The public will judge us based on the character of the decisions we make and the quality of our judgments in choosing between legally-acceptable alternatives. That is why conducting ourselves in an ethical and responsible manner will be fundamental to the survival of hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
Randall,

Has there been anyone on this forum that has said "I want X type of hunting banned or outlawed?"

Yes they have.

Yes Sir,

Dogcat posted this on the "Hunters versus Hunters" discussion in the American Hunting topic area, WHICH is part of this site!

quote:

Of course there are certain types of killing (it is not hunting) that should be banned as it is unethical and not fair chase by any means or definition of hunting.

1. Tower or released pheasant shoots. This is where the shooters get in a giant circle around a hill and pen raised pheasants are launched up and into the air where they fly over the gauntlet as shooters empty there guns on the birds. Sometimes called a European shoot.

2.Any hunting behind a high fence where pen raised animals are released to be shot. Pen raised are animals raised in a controlled environment, fed and habituated to human interaction.

3. Shooting any game animal from an enclosed hide over a feeder that is timed and regulated to attract the animal at prescribed times of the day. I would ban this on high fenced and non fenced areas. I have done this a few times and have come to the conclusion that it is ethically and morally wrong. Not different than baiting waterfowl but worse in a high fence enclosure.

4. Require that all gun owners and hunters attend and pass a rigorous testing course that requires proven proficiency in handling and shooting guns, detailed knowledge of game laws, and detailed knowledge of the specials you wish to hunt. This is done in many European countries and by PH training in Zimbabwe and other African countries.

5. Ban hunting from aircraft. Shooting pigs or coyotes from a helicopter is repugnant and wrong.

6. Adopt the B&C standards of fair chase across all states.

7. Ban the use of night vision optics except in tracking wounded game.

8. Increase the price of all hunting liscences to at least $100 for basic hunting priviledges. Money goes to state game departments to structure the hunting permit classes.

9. Require extensive guide/outfitter training to include proficiency with guns, horses (where appropriate), all laws, first aid, sanitary issues for camps, and trophy evaluation. Require an apprenticeship and demonstrated skills in the field.

And Mr. Jines has intimated the EXACT same sentiments! All you have to do is look around and see that some "Hunters"(???) really do believe that if certain forms/methods of hunting, even though they are LEGAL, are outlawed then the Non-Hunters will view us more favorably.

The POINT they mioss completely is that hunters in this day and time, hunt because they want to, not because they have to and their only real justification for hunting some species is simply to kill something for a trophy or bragging rights.

A segment of hunters really can not understand that no matter what concessions we make, the FACT remains and is what is fueling the people against hunting, is that we are Killing Other Species, Because We WANT To, not because we have too!

Okay Randall you got me there. I don't read the American forum. However I think that what Mike wrote below beautifully sums up the need for ethical hunting standards.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Laws establish the minimum acceptable level of behavior. Ethics help us make choices among legally permissible behaviors. The public will judge us not by whether we obey the law . . . that’s a given. The public will judge us based on the character of the decisions we make and the quality of our judgments in choosing between legally-acceptable alternatives. That is why conducting ourselves in an ethical and responsible manner will be fundamental to the survival of hunting.

It should be noted that every major hunting organization has a Code of Ethics and yes that includes SCI. There is a reason for this.

We will never convince virulent anti hunters that hunting can have positive effects. It is a waste of time; this has been proven over and over again. However we can influence the people in the middle who constitute the majority of people. That is who we need to get our message to.

quote:

Why is it perfectly OKAY and completely ACCEPTABLE to bait a Leopard, but not a White Tail?

Sorry I do not agree. The folks wanting hunting stopped really do not care about our supposed Ethics!

Thec ONLY thing they are looking at is that there is NO reason for any of us living within Today's Society to be willingly wanting to KILL something.

1. We are not killing anything because we Have to have the meat!

2. We are not killing anything to defend our families/pets/livestock!

3. The ONLY reason those that want hunting stopped, is because they feel we enjoy it and we do it simply for a Trophy or Bragging Rights!

Point is, on this site, more people support all LEGAL forms/methods of hunting than don't. Those that don't believe that Their Personal Concept Of Ethics negates all those that just want hunters to hunt LEGALLY!!!

You are obviously not right that non hunters cannot be won by ethics. The documentarians who made Trophy were fervent anti hunters. The hunting conservation model changed their perspective on hunting.

On the good news side, I booked what is going to be a great hunt through the forum last month. Many other great deals have been posted on the Outfitters offered hunt sub forum.

For some more good news, I go to buy my 2018 hunting license and turkey tag tomorrow. Bad news turkey season does not open until mid April. Toms are rounding up hens and gobbling their heads off right now.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Sorry I do not agree. The folks wanting hunting stopped really do not care about our supposed Ethics!

Thec ONLY thing they are looking at is that there is NO reason for any of us living within Today's Society to be willingly wanting to KILL something.

1. We are not killing anything because we Have to have the meat!

2. We are not killing anything to defend our families/pets/livestock!

3. The ONLY reason those that want hunting stopped, is because they feel we enjoy it and we do it simply for a Trophy or Bragging Rights!

Point is, on this site, more people support all LEGAL forms/methods of hunting than don't. Those that don't believe that Their Personal Concept Of Ethics negates all those that just want hunters to hunt LEGALLY!!!

Those people you refer to are not representative of the American public in general. The people you are describing can properly be described as anti-hunting; they are the ones that are actively working towards bans. And you are correct they don't care about our ethics. They are also resistant to reason and logic.

However, the majority of Americans (70-75%) oppose the outright banning of hunting. These are the people I'm referring to. These are the people that can be reached. These are the people that have no problem with hunting as long as it is legal AND ethical. We will lose their support if we do not present ourselves as responsible outdoorsmen.

quote:

Their Personal Concept Of Ethics negates all those that just want hunters to hunt LEGALLY!!!

It is basically a Code of Conduct that has to be applied and has nothing to do with a personal concept of doing things ethically or morally right; similar to kicking a man when he's down, some do, most don't.

quote:

Those people you refer to are not representative of the American public in general.

gremlin I have been huntingt long enough and have met and talked to enough people to know two things that are facts.

1. Anti Hunters/Anti Gun Ownership supporters are basically all the same. There is No Talking with them, No Reasoning with them their minds are made up they want6 all hunting in any form stopped, they want Private Gun Ownership stopped and all guns confiscated, and iot is all being done for one reason, to CONTROL other humans lives, nothing more than that.

2. The majority of Non-Hunters that I have talked to, dealt with at one level or another expressed the thought that the only thing that caused them any problem was the concept that animals were being killed, but as long as the meat was not going to waste they did not have a real problem, but they did have a problem with folks killing animals just for a trophy.

I have been dealing with non-hunters since the late 60's when I started hunting and the one constant recurring issue concerns killing animals when in todays world the only reason hunters hunt is to kill animal, because they WANT to.

Can yoiu not see that all these discussions are clearly pointing out that hunters are so divided and with some hunters being willing to throw other hunters under the bus, HOPING that by doing so they will win Brownie Points with Non-Hunters.

The comprehensive ability to understand that if one hunter would willingly support the closure of a hunting method, that while legally authorised, does not meet that person llevel or concept of Ethical, do you honestly think if that methods is outlawed that the hunters that enjoyed that method are going to support keeping the type of hunting that the ones that sold them out available to those people?

Another way of looking at this is the economics standpoint.

How many Americans and how much $$$ do they spend on African hunts in an average year versus how many Americans and how much $$$ do they spend just on hunting white tail deer in an average year?

Gremlin, I am not the enemy, I Do Not want to see any form of Legally Sanctioned Hunting anywhere closed.

What is WRONG with that?

Why can't there be room for ALL of us that enjoy hunting?

Why does one group have to set themselves up as Lord High Executioners, based solely on the concept of what is ethical, which is a concept that varies from one human to the next?

Why is it that one group of hunters believes their "Concept" of Ethics should be or must be shared/adhered to by All Hunters?

quote:

You are obviously not right that non hunters cannot be won by ethics.

Heym, with Non-Hunters the question of ethics does not enter the issue, that is a fallacy, the entire issue concerns people going out and killing animals just because they WANT TO, not because they have to, and when the concept that the kill was made JUST to gain a TROPHY, that only intensifies the problem.

You are never going to see that, you have bought hook/line and sinker into the "Belief" that if all hunters adopt some form of "Higher Ethical" behavior, hunters will be more widely accepted by the masses, that is NEVER going to happen.

I have seen posts like this on countless forums I have been part of for 20 years now. Every 3-5 years there is a post about the good old days and how newbies have ruined something. The bottom line is every topic gets old and becomes well covered.

The next issue is the pendulum swings in both directions on everything. Conservative vs liberal, hunting vs. anti, hippies vs yuppies etc. etc. This has always been the case.

We move on to recency bias. What is happening to you right now will continue in the same fashion going forward. This is almost never true. African hunting has always had good and bad periods of time as well as changing trends. Go back and read Death in the long grass and you will remember all the comments by Capstick about the anti hunting movement. That book was written 40 years ago. Every Boddington video I ever watched or book I read talked about the doom and gloom surrounding African hunting. Ruark did it too. So is it actually different at all?

When I joined AR in Aug of 2006 I was 31 and much younger than most forum members. The members posting hunting trips back then were mostly in their 50s and 60s. If we cut to the chase there is a huge difference between 55 and 65 in terms of ability. The reason this is so important is that the average babyboomer is now well in to their 60s with the oldest ones being in their 70s. Most of them are not hunting anymore and there are simply far fewer Gen Xers from a mathematical point of view. Then when you take in to account the superior financial position of baby boomers vs. Gen Xers the decline was inevitable.

Personally I have been away from AR and hunting and shooting for roughly 8 years after my last Safari as I have been busy raising a family. I will finally get back to Africa this summer and I could not be more excited.

Geoff,

Glad to hear that you are going back to Africa after an extended absence.

As for Boddington he isn't all that doom and gloom about Africa. He periodically gives a presentation on the future of African hunting. His basic theme is that times change and hunting changes but new opportunities present themselves. He has written several times that he has been guilty of being unduly pessimistic in the past but doesn't subscribe to the theory that the end is near.

As far as the hunting debate goes it has raged on for decades and will continue to do so. My basic concern is that the difference today is the prevalence of the internet and social media.
People get attacked anonymously and every comment, photo and video has the potential of going viral. With this in mind I believe that we
A. need to be careful individually about what we
put out there and B. we need an organization that can effectively mount a social media campaign to show the people in the middle that hunting is a real tool for conservation.

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
Geoff,

Glad to hear that you are going back to Africa after an extended absence.

As for Boddington he isn't all that doom and gloom about Africa. He periodically gives a presentation on the future of African hunting. His basic theme is that times change and hunting changes but new opportunities present themselves. He has written several times that he has been guilty of being unduly pessimistic in the past but doesn't subscribe to the theory that the end is near.

As far as the hunting debate goes it has raged on for decades and will continue to do so. My basic concern is that the difference today is the prevalence of the internet and social media.
People get attacked anonymously and every comment, photo and video has the potential of going viral. With this in mind I believe that we
A. need to be careful individually about what we
put out there and B. we need an organization that can effectively mount a social media campaign to show the people in the middle that hunting is a real tool for conservation.

I should have worded my Boddington comments better. I meant that in the late 70s we thought African hunting was doomed, not that we was saying it is getting worse today.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:


Thec ONLY thing they are looking at is that there is NO reason for any of us living within Today's Society to be willingly wanting to KILL something.

Then that is their ignorance. I prefer organic meat and I don't feel like paying for grass fed beef and such a thing is not available in many Alaskan Bush communities whereas a Moose or Caribou many times is.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Those people you refer to are not representative of the American public in general.

gremlin I have been huntingt long enough and have met and talked to enough people to know two things that are facts.

1. Anti Hunters/Anti Gun Ownership supporters are basically all the same. There is No Talking with them, No Reasoning with them their minds are made up they want6 all hunting in any form stopped, they want Private Gun Ownership stopped and all guns confiscated, and iot is all being done for one reason, to CONTROL other humans lives, nothing more than that.

2. The majority of Non-Hunters that I have talked to, dealt with at one level or another expressed the thought that the only thing that caused them any problem was the concept that animals were being killed, but as long as the meat was not going to waste they did not have a real problem, but they did have a problem with folks killing animals just for a trophy.

I have been dealing with non-hunters since the late 60's when I started hunting and the one constant recurring issue concerns killing animals when in todays world the only reason hunters hunt is to kill animal, because they WANT to.

Can yoiu not see that all these discussions are clearly pointing out that hunters are so divided and with some hunters being willing to throw other hunters under the bus, HOPING that by doing so they will win Brownie Points with Non-Hunters.

The comprehensive ability to understand that if one hunter would willingly support the closure of a hunting method, that while legally authorised, does not meet that person llevel or concept of Ethical, do you honestly think if that methods is outlawed that the hunters that enjoyed that method are going to support keeping the type of hunting that the ones that sold them out available to those people?

Another way of looking at this is the economics standpoint.

How many Americans and how much $$$ do they spend on African hunts in an average year versus how many Americans and how much $$$ do they spend just on hunting white tail deer in an average year?

Gremlin, I am not the enemy, I Do Not want to see any form of Legally Sanctioned Hunting anywhere closed.

What is WRONG with that?

Why can't there be room for ALL of us that enjoy hunting?

Why does one group have to set themselves up as Lord High Executioners, based solely on the concept of what is ethical, which is a concept that varies from one human to the next?

Why is it that one group of hunters believes their "Concept" of Ethics should be or must be shared/adhered to by All Hunters?

Randall,

I think that you have severely misunderstood my positions.

Firstly, I do not and have not ever considered you an enemy. I consider you a fellow forum member that is passionate in what you believe. In fact from what you have posted I would wager that you and I would agree on a great many things.

Secondly, I have not advocated the banning of any kind of hunting. I have my personal code of ethics that I subscribe to. I do not expect ANYONE to do or say as I do. We can have a healthy and respectful debate and hopefully come to some agreement as what can be done to further the sport of hunting that we all enjoy.

Finally, my basic premise is that we as hunters suffer from an image problem. We now live in a world where thanks to ever present social media every thought, word and deed is scrutinized. In light of this, especially belonging to a shrinking minority, we need to present ourselves in the best possible light.

We have all agreed that anti-hunters cannot be reasoned with and is a waste of time. I mean what do you say to an organization like PETA that wants Walter Palmer hung and believes that all types of fishing should be banned?

You bring up the anti-gun folk as an example of what we are fighting. I would respectfully submit that the fight against guns and the fight against hunting while somewhat intertwined differ in some significant ways.

1. We in the United States do not enjoy constitutional protection for hunting. The 2nd Amendment applies only in the US and does not mention hunting. Unfortunately policy from the United States government, namely the USFWS, DOES impact other countries and it does so unfairly and negatively.

2. We do not have a powerful organization like the NRA on our side. The NRA is hugely influential and successful at protecting the 2nd amendment. Unfortunately the NRA is pretty much a single issue organization. I realize that is does positive things for hunting but that is secondary. We need an organization that can effectively speak for all hunters. Unfortunately, SCI isn't up to the task at this time.

3. I think I can say that almost every hunter in this country owns a firearm. However, only a relatively small number of gun owners hunt. Gun owners obviously aren't anti-gun but they may be on the fence about hunting. These folks are part of the middle on the issue of hunting.

With these three points in mind I and others are saying that we need to project a positive image to both fend off our attackers and attract new members to the fold.

This is where ethics come in. As I said we do not have a constitutional right to fall back on. We do not have a powerful organization that represents all of us. We do have a lot of people in the middle that don't entirely accept the premise that if it is legal then ethics don't matter.

So my position is that while we can't do much about the Constitution, we can work together to develop a stronger organization. We can try to appeal to those people in the middle. Making an appeal isn't appeasement; it is making a compelling argument. We can make logical arguments, emotional arguments and yes even ethical arguments.

I hope this makes my position clear.

Thank you.

P.S. I am still encouraging you to watch the movie "Trophy". Put aside your preconceived ideas. It will give you some food for thought. It did for me and others here on the board.

quote:

I think I can say that almost every hunter in this country owns a firearm. However, only a relatively small number of gun owners hunt. Gun owners obviously aren't anti-gun but they may be on the fence about hunting.

Not only on the fence but even anti-hunting.

I quit listening to Neal Boortz, who is adamantly pro-gun, when he disparaged hunters on his radio show.

There are thousands of gun enthusiasts who've never hunted and never intend to--skeet, trap, sporting clays, silhouette, SASS, and many other disciplines.

But when the 2nd Amendment is threatened every one of them stands up regardless of their preferred firearms choices. Because they believe the 2nd Amendment is larger than them. It is certainly larger than little ol' me.

Most will even support the NRA even if they don't hold 100% to the NRA doctrine. The NRA is the best game in town and they get my money.

Hunters should do likewise with the likes of SCI. We won't, but we should.

I was wondering if the parallel to gun ownership would come up.

Jeremy

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
You are obviously not right that non hunters cannot be won by ethics. The documentarians who made Trophy were fervent anti hunters. The hunting conservation model changed their perspective on hunting.

On the good news side, I booked what is going to be a great hunt through the forum last month. Many other great deals have been posted on the Outfitters offered hunt sub forum.

For some more good news, I go to buy my 2018 hunting license and turkey tag tomorrow. Bad news turkey season does not open until mid April. Toms are rounding up hens and gobbling their heads off right now.

You are correct.

My wife was an anti hunter when I first met her. She took the time to learn and has totally changed her mind.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
You are obviously not right that non hunters cannot be won by ethics. The documentarians who made Trophy were fervent anti hunters. The hunting conservation model changed their perspective on hunting.

On the good news side, I booked what is going to be a great hunt through the forum last month. Many other great deals have been posted on the Outfitters offered hunt sub forum.

For some more good news, I go to buy my 2018 hunting license and turkey tag tomorrow. Bad news turkey season does not open until mid April. Toms are rounding up hens and gobbling their heads off right now.

You are correct.

My wife was an anti hunter when I first met her. She took the time to learn and has totally changed her mind.

Did she change her mind after you showed her your bank account balance? Just kidding.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
You are obviously not right that non hunters cannot be won by ethics. The documentarians who made Trophy were fervent anti hunters. The hunting conservation model changed their perspective on hunting.

On the good news side, I booked what is going to be a great hunt through the forum last month. Many other great deals have been posted on the Outfitters offered hunt sub forum.

For some more good news, I go to buy my 2018 hunting license and turkey tag tomorrow. Bad news turkey season does not open until mid April. Toms are rounding up hens and gobbling their heads off right now.

You are correct.

My wife was an anti hunter when I first met her. She took the time to learn and has totally changed her mind.

Did she change her mind after you showed her your bank account balance? Just kidding.

Actually, it started when she made a ridiculous comment about elephants. I pulled out one of my DVDs and showed it to her. She was shocked that the elephants were trying to kill us. She thought they were "gentle giants." Then she wondered why my shirt was drenched. I had just walked over 20 miles in extreme heat (over 110 F). She actually thought we rode around in air conditioned trucks and shot them out the windows. Of course, I laughed like hell.

Then I took her to DSC. The first row we went down was pretty much all conservation. She was absolutely floored. She has absolutely no idea.

Since then, she has seen and learned a lot. All the training I do for a sheep hunt for example. I will sit all day in a tree and pass on countless deer because they aren't the right one . All of the effort I put into conservation and the money I spend on it.

She has learned it is not at all what she originally thought.

I'll piggyback on Larry's experience with his wife!

My wife when I met her was neither pro hunting or anti-hunting. She was neither pro or anti-gun for that matter.

I always had a desire to hunt a tuskless elephant, but she would not hear of that! She wouldn't stand for her husband to kill such a beautiful and majestic animal.

Then I took her to Zimbabwe...and Hwange National Park. I thought okay, she wants to see elephants, I'll show her elephants! Pretty quickly she saw the devastation to the environment caused by the eles. She saw elephants in every conceivable situation and by the end of the trip she gave me her blessing to hunt the tuskless.

Fast forward several months and I had the opportunity to book a tuskless hunt. She saw me prepare by walking miles and miles, learning to shoot a .470 confidently and studying elephant behavior and anatomy. She admired my dedication and understood what I was trying to accomplish.

Now today she carries pictures of my hunt on her phone (including the meat distribution) and proudly proclaims "that's my husband, the elephant hunter!"

We can reach those middle people folks....

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
I'll piggyback on Larry's experience with his wife!

My wife when I met her was neither pro hunting or anti-hunting. She was neither pro or anti-gun for that matter.

I always had a desire to hunt a tuskless elephant, but she would not hear of that! She wouldn't stand for her husband to kill such a beautiful and majestic animal.

Then I took her to Zimbabwe...and Hwange National Park. I thought okay, she wants to see elephants, I'll show her elephants! Pretty quickly she saw the devastation to the environment caused by the eles. She saw elephants in every conceivable situation and by the end of the trip she gave me her blessing to hunt the tuskless.

Fast forward several months and I had the opportunity to book a tuskless hunt. She saw me prepare by walking miles and miles, learning to shoot a .470 confidently and studying elephant behavior and anatomy. She admired my dedication and understood what I was trying to accomplish.

Now today she carries pictures of my hunt on her phone (including the meat distribution) and proudly proclaims "that's my husband, the elephant hunter!"

We can reach those middle people folks....

My wife is a vegetarian for ethical reasons and it has taken me years for her to accept fishing.

on the selfish side... I'm hoping the stock market being up means some of you guys will go do some more hunting and a lot more hunt reports.

I financially won't allow myself any huge hunts at this point so I have to live through the rest of you.

has been an interesting journey over the past 5 or so years of lurking around here and seeing how at least the US politics have changed who is willing to share what