took this picture in the Okavango Delta a few years ago and i was wondering what the experts/Tz. PH's thought about his being over 6 years old.

No. More like three.

It doesn't look super old, but at that distance I'd be guessing at best! Hard to say.

Brett

to be sure you'd have to ask for his diners club card

Challenging from that 1 photo (if you have more try posting these). IMO it does NOT appear to be 6 or older. If I had to guess, I would say over 4 but less than 5. Those Okavango lions grow impressive manes......

quote:

to be sure you'd have to ask for his diners club card

I would bet his card is max'd out, look at the gut on that guy. Looks like he ate that buff by himself. Jerry, Isn't gluttony one of the 7 deadly sins?

That lion was born March 22nd, 2000.

The date is right in front of you guys!

That is EXACTLY the reason that lion aging under real hunting conditions is such a difficult proposition. The stinking date is on the photo and people still get it wrong.
I would LOVE to see a test where five lions of a known age bracket were shown, you submit your vote as to the age of each, then the real age ( along with your vote) would be up for review on AR... man would the good times roll on that one!! Lots of egg on hand scraped directly off some faces here. Great photo though, and great point proved.

Guys, I know the photo could have been taken when the lion was 4-5-or 10 years of age. My point was that this is a reeeeal tough thing to do for anybody but real experts, especially under field conditions. I do not claim to have the answers, and agree totally with the taking of mature lion, but think asking a guy that is on a lion safari to pass this cat because you cannot be sure if he is five or six would and will cause BIG problems in nearly every lion blind in every country they are hunted.
This is a tough one, and I think my little test would open some eyes. did not mean to come off poorly on my previous post fellas,
Cheers

we can always pull and tooth section it and count the growth rings before we shoot it

We've mounted many cats, and most of them no bigger than this one. I don't know the age but he could certainly fool you just like any trophy that we are guessing on. I know the PH's are good but it is still an educated guess at best... IMO DAN

quote:

did not mean to come off poorly on my previous post fellas,
Cheers

Why would you think that? You make a great a point. We are all big boys.

If the well wishers are not carefull Lion hunting in Africa is gonna get as bad as Whitetail Deer hunting in Texas. I just hope it doesn't get as expensive!!!!!!

Being a dumb Irishman, I love to jump into arguments where I know nothing about the matter at hand (like the age of a lion). I just want to mention that he seems to be standing over a fairly large critter (that I can't identify). Shumba, you tell these young bucks that their day ain't yet!

A really great book that helps explain it is 'A Hunter's Guide To Ageing Lions' by Karyl Whitman and Craig Packer.

6th book down here: http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=3270

Here's one for you. I know how old this Lion was when the pic was taken.

Your guesstimates gentlemen please?

Hi Steve
As old as he is going to get if I have a .375 or larger in my hands and a a satchel full of one hundred dollar bills !!!!
With a mane like that, I'm shooting if he has a tit in his mouth and spots. What a cat.

Dave Fulson really makes the best point of all. Age of this lion in my opinion is 4-5, but in a hunting blind with a client paying big money and a PH trying to do the right thing, who cares?? Me, I would not shoot this lion but that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't. It's definitely NOT a young, immature lion, but how old is he really, who knows???

Besides accurate lion aging, even with tooth samples has still not proven to be accurate!! According to Dr. Paula White who is currently heading the Zambian Lion Project, and has also studied lion in both Kenya & Tanzania, accurate aging of lions through tooth samples has NOT proven to be accurate, especially as teeth compare from region to region!!!!

Steve - If that were a wild lion, who would give a damn how old it is??? Get out of the way so I don't shoot you in the back, I'm shootin him!!

Aaron Neilson

Yeah! Steve, It doesn't look like a bush lion to me but if he came to my bait I would shoot him. Lower quotas make more sense to me than putting a PH's job on the line because he let the client shoot the lion of his dreams but someone else thought the lion was not 6 years old. What an impractical crock of shit.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Yeah! Steve, It doesn't look like a bush lion to me but if he came to my bait I would shoot him. Lower quotas make more sense to me than putting a PH's job on the line because he let the client shoot the lion of his dreams but someone else thought the lion was not 6 years old. What an impractical crock of shit.

Mark

The two things I'm looking for on him are A) the blackness of the nose and B) several scars from fighting. He doesn't appear to have either. I'm judging him a 3 year-old as well. His noggin looks narrow. He's healthy no doubt, but lacks any mane growth on or above his shoulders. He is not a shooter, not even on the 21st day.

Look at the black noses in Steve's posted pics of lions. That's a better indicator to age a Botswana lion.

Steve, I am betting big that your lion is not a truly wild lion. Farm raised, IMHO.

That makes him tough to age. He has none of the character marks that an old, wild lion would have.

But from mane size and shape and nose color only, I would say he is at least six and possibly as much as eight or nine years old.

In other words, if he were a wild lion, I would shoot him in a New York minute.

Oh no Moja, say it ain't so. Now we are back to the color of the nose thing!!! A more un-reliable way to judge a lion's age has never been construed.

Aaron

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Hi Steve
As old as he is going to get if I have a .375 or larger in my hands and a a satchel full of one hundred dollar bills !!!!
With a mane like that, I'm shooting if he has a tit in his mouth and spots. What a cat.

Your killing me. I read this, and knowing Dave, he isn't kidding. That's a dead cat if Big Dave's shooting... If I'm shooting, well, I'm shooting and we hope I'm killing him...SMILE

went back and magnified my original photos of this guy( i have 6-7 but this was probably the best) . his nose is definitely all black and there is a scar across the bridge of his nose and over his right eyebrow. one thing i know for absolute certainty is that he was the pride male- 4 lionesses and 5 cubs of 2 different age groups were feeding on the buffalo kill when we drove up. we had video taped the lionesses working a buff herd the previous evening until we ran out of "shooting" light and came back the next morning and found their kill. when we drove up, the lionesses and cubs were feeding on the kill and got pictures of that. after about 10 minutes the male showed up and the rest of the pride retreated into the brush. he fed for about 20 minutes and wandered off. bear in mind, the picture were taken from the back of a Landcruiser from about 25 feet away with no telephoto lens.

Some interesting comments.

The Lion in the pic I posted was about 6 1/2 when I took the pic and was one of two brothers that had been house reared until they got too big and boisterous and had then been moved out into a very large pen.

They were kept as pets but this one especially was very aggressive indeed and bordering on being loopy. - In fact, two days after this was taken he very nearly nailed an American guy. The guy got away....... but it was close enough for the Lion to end up keeping the blokes jacket.

Regarding black noses: IMO although this can be used as a bit of a guide, that's about all and in all practicality, it's not a lot of use anyway. Wild Lions fight and get scratched noses and wounds scab, turn pink and then heal. There's also the fact that as they feed, their noses and the rest of the face gets covered in blood, mud and all kinds of other shit and often stays there for a while, so telling what's healing tissue and isn't and/or what's blood, mud or other foreign matter, through binos and probably in bad light, simply isn't realistic in the real world of Professional Hunting.

Other scars are indicators of age in wild Lions and lack of scars on mature Lions are good indicators of penned Lions, but again shouldn't be relied on as sole indicators of age.

Better indicators of age are shape/width of head, and how the mane fills in around the head, across the forehead and on shoulders, belly and back....... but bear in mind that people have written whole books on the subject, so a few words on a forum can hardly cover everything. - So please excuse my broad brush strokes.

Regarding the pic that Jdollar posted. I note he said the Lion was the pride male....... that could well be right but it could also be a subservient male (still A pride male but not THE pride holding male) that was about due to be kicked out of the pride by the pride holder(s). He's a bit big for that, but (IMO) also a bit small to hold a pride of his own, without help from another male. (probably a brother) ....... but that statement has a fair bit of assumption and we all know what that does!

I should say that the age requirement is just that and nothing more. Shooting a 6+ year old Lion that holds a pride with dependent cubs is going to do more damage to the overall populations than shooting a younger Lion that isn't holding a pride. Sure the older Lion will probably be a better trophy but it won't be a good move as far as Lion management is concerned.

This article by Andrew McLaren about how to spot a canned hunt might be of interest: http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-wild-lions.html

A lot of what has been asked or said in this thread has been hashed out before on AR os rather than repeat things once over, anyone interested might want to do a search.

Dave, a while back I posted a test as you describe using photos of known aged lions and yes the results were quite varied. At the end of the day, the more photos one can study of known aged lions - especially with the guidance of scientists and researchers - the more confidence one gains in estimating the age of a wild lion.

Those that promote the use of a very conservative quota instead of an aged based regulation are missing the point which is that the taking of a pride male that is younger than 6 is DETRIMENTAL in the long term to the overall promulgation of the specie in that area. This is SCIENCE guys so there is no "but" or "ifs" involved! And to suggest that one can therefore take a young male from a pride that is not yet a pride male without impacting the survival of the pride and therefore, to be allowed, just hasn't thought about the economics of the whole thing - without mentioning another long-term negative effect of such action to the genetics of the local population. And economics is crucial to conservation

The pressure of having to satisfy the client who has paid $$ for a lion hunt at all costs by allowing them to take a "marginal" lion is simply born out of ignorance (no offense intended to anyone) within the entire hunting fraternity IMHO. Time will come when this no longer will be an "excuse" used to shoot a "marginal" lion.

The bottom line is that we are at a stage in our "sport" (and I use this word lightly)where in order to ensure the sustainability of lion hunting for future generations, we will need to resort to regulating it. The scientific approach that is unanimously accepted and recognized is an "age-based" regulation. Whether this is fair or not towards a client matters not IMHO - and anyways, it is subject to one's own intepretation of what is fair or not, right?

Bwanamich - I think everyone here is of the same opinion as you, we need good regulations as it pertains to lion hunting! No one has a bigger love affair with lions than myself, and no one wants to see lion hunting lost because of ignorance, including me.

But, I think some of the arguments, including my own are that, reducing quotas, and then imposing self-regulating harvest of the obviously mature, hopefully non-breeding males, is a more realistic way to go about it. Rather than imposing an arbitrary age limit, that is in NO WAY reliable, or even based on fact! The only unanimously accepted fact as it pertains to aging wild lions is that, there is NO definitive measure as it pertains to aging a wild lion. Even teeth are NOT definitive as it pertains to aging, now it might be unanimously accepted, but recent studies have been showing different, especially when it comes to lions ranging from region to region. Remember, those who have been doing those studies over the years gotta come up with something to justify all the money they were given!!!

Just look at this thread and you will see how much mis-information is widely accepted as fact when it pertains to aging a wild lion! "His nose is black or not", "he either has scars or doesn't", his mane doesn't fill in totally around his ears", etc, etc, etc. Shakari has a reasonable approach to the whole thing, which is it's ok to use some of these things as guidelines, depending on the area you are hunting etc. But to impose a LAW that could cost PH's their livelihood and clients a trophy, when the info being used to regulate that LAW, is NOT 100% reliable in the first place, is a recipe for big trouble. You're right, the high-paying client can't be the only consideration and his happiness the only goal. But if Tanzania makes it so difficult and risky to participate, that the high paying client who wants some happiness, and pays the BILLS, chooses no longer to participate, its all gonna go away, anyway my friend, including the lions!!! Listed below are just a few examples of what will make this so difficult for PH's and clients in the field.

I shot this lion in Zim in 2002. We actually weighed him at 489lbs, had a 26.5" skull and at least 50% of his nose is pink! He was by himself, the best that we could tell. How old is he actually, not sure, but please tell me anyone who is gonna pass on him?



Below is another example of a big lion I shot it Botswana in 2007, again an incredible mane and at least 50% of his nose is pink. This lion appeared not to be a pride male, traveling with another obviously younger male. We saw the pride in the area, this was NOT the male that was with them. My opinion, the MOST unreliable way to estimate age, the COLOR of the nose!!! Having this lion mounted life-size right next to the lion above, I would estimate his weight at 450lbs. Again, who passes this lion???



Here's a lion I shot in Zim in 2008, not the total mane development of the two above, but had an almost totally black nose and weighed in at 503lbs. An example of mane development as it obviously varies from region to region, but to say this is not a mature lion would be in-accurate. However, is mane development is LESS than the ones above, but yet has a black nose. Now tell me the ages of these lions, and tell me how a PH should determine the one to shoot, or the one not to shoot, because of his AGE????



This lion is a Zambian lion, not sure his exact weight, but I have him mounted right next to the lion pictured at the top, weighing in at 489lbs. He is easily 50-75lbs heavier than the lion weighing 489lbs, in fact by far the biggest bodied lion I have ever shot. Mane development is good, but you can see it does NOT go way back to his shoulders like the Zim or the Bots lion, but he towers over both of them in my office. I looked at ALL the pics I have of him and just went and looked at the mount, at least 50% of his nose is pink!! Again, an example of an obviously mature lion, with different characteristics, making aging him in the field VERY TOUGH!!



Now, here's a lion I shot in June 2009 in Zambia's Kafue region. His mane is nice, but not what the Kafue is famed for!! I have hunted this area many times, and have been with many of the lion hunters in this block. A very common characteristic of the lions in this area is that they RARELY have 25" plus skulls. In fact, all the skulls I have measured from this block have been in the 24" range, regardless of mane quality. This lion is by far the biggest bodied lion I have ever seen come from this block and the outfitter agreed, with a skull at 25 6/8", for the area he is huge. Dr. Paula White was actually with me on the hunt, she estimated his age at 7.5 yrs, but of course just an estimate. We hunted this lion for over a week, he was ALWAYS by himself!!



Now, compare these lions below from the exact same block in Zambia. Obviously much better mane development, and NOT ONE of them with a skull over 24.5". So, how is a PH to determine the age of these lions, all from the same exact area, but with obviously different characteristics? Can't be done with any regular accuracy. The lions below, look bigger, look older, but likely are NOT!!!


I took these pics, this lion had a huge mane and not a really big body!


Another lion shot in July 2009 from the same Zambian Block. An obviously better mane, but a 24" skull and smaller body, according the the PH, than the lion I shot just the month before.



Unfortunately you will have to go to the link below, I cannot find a picture of this lion on my computer. This is a lion I shot last September in the Kilombero Valley of TZ. This lion has a poor mane, but measured exactly 10' 7" from nose to tail, with a 26 6/8" skull. (HE IS THE LION AT THE BOTTOM RIGHT OF THE PAGE, WITH A MOHAWK FOR A MANE) We were not able to weigh him, but I guarantee he is a 500lb lion. This is a PRIME example of region, and genetics in that region producing poor manes, much like the bordering Selous, but still it's an old, mature male. I watched and filmed this lion for over a week, he was ALWAYS alone. In fact, when the PH and I first saw this lion he immediately said he was young, because of his mane. I looked at the lion for 5 minutes and said "NO WAY", he's an old mature male, guaranteed!! Look at his body, his head, his shoulders, etc, etc. After 10 minutes of starring at the lion, the PH agreed. In fact we talked later about it, and he admitted, he immediately judged the lion based solely on the mane and didn't pay much more attention!!

http://www.globalhuntingresources.com/bigcat.htm


Bottom line, and only my opinion of course, but ACCURATELY aging a LION, in the field, under field judging conditions, considering ALL lions are different, not only from region to region, but right in the VERY SAME areas, is IMPOSSIBLE. One thing that is obvious if you are an experienced PH or lion hunter, is whether or not the lion standing in front of you is a mature animal. So, reduce quotas, insist that ALL PH's and hunters shoot ONLY mature looking lions, and ask them to do their best not to shoot males who hold a pride, etc. But to say we are going to impose AGE limits, when they can't even accurately determine lion ages in the first place, is a recipe for BIG problems, and the only things that will suffer are lions and the lion hunting industry!!!


Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources

quote:

But to say we are going to impose AGE limits, when they can't even accurately determine lion ages in the first place, is a recipe for BIG problems, and the only things that will suffer are lions and the lion hunting industry!!!

Ditto 100%

Very, very good points Aaron, not to mention a covey of world class lions!
I am jealous!!!

quote:

Bottom line, and only my opinion of course, but ACCURATELY aging a LION, in the field, under field judging conditions, considering ALL lions are different, not only from region to region, but right in the VERY SAME areas, is IMPOSSIBLE. One thing that is obvious if you are an experienced PH or lion hunter, is whether or not the lion standing in front of you is a mature animal. So, reduce quotas, insist that ALL PH's and hunters shoot ONLY mature looking lions, and ask them to do their best not to shoot males who hold a pride, etc. But to say we are going to impose AGE limits, when they can't even accurately determine lion ages in the first place, is a recipe for BIG problems, and the only things that will suffer are lions and the lion hunting industry!!!

Exactly!!!

Mark

quote:

Dave, a while back I posted a test as you describe using photos of known aged lions and yes the results were quite varied. At the end of the day, the more photos one can study of known aged lions - especially with the guidance of scientists and researchers - the more confidence one gains in estimating the age of a wild lion.

This is absolutely correct. You have to start somewhere. And making an informed studied decision is always better than a guess.

quote:

The pressure of having to satisfy the client who has paid $$ for a lion hunt at all costs by allowing them to take a "marginal" lion is simply born out of ignorance (no offense intended to anyone) within the entire hunting fraternity IMHO. Time will come when this no longer will be an "excuse" used to shoot a "marginal" lion.

Another "spot-on" statement. And some of the previous posts (with-out mentioning names) point out how we got in this situation!

quote:

The bottom line is that we are at a stage in our "sport" (and I use this word lightly)where in order to ensure the sustainability of lion hunting for future generations, we will need to resort to regulating it. The scientific approach that is unanimously accepted and recognized is an "age-based" regulation.

In almost every instance where a species has been brought back to healthy populations, science is to thank. One must take a SCIENTIFIC approach.

I think the answer is probably a bit like the challenge of the problem of ageing them in that there are a variety of factors that all need to be applied together.

Certainly a number of people and companies have done a shed load of work on the problem. TGTS must have spent a fortune on their brilliant report where they consulted a number of specialists and zoologists. Then you have Craig Packer and his team who have spent years studying the species and so it goes on. If there is a common weakness is the work (IMO) it's that the studies have (to the best of my knowledge) all been restricted to certain areas rather than on a wider scale. Ideally studies would be done nationally at least and continent wide at best...... but as we all know the cost of that would be prohibitive.

I'm no expert and certainly no zoologist but if I were to hazard a guess at how proper management should be conducted it would be that each area would need a team of guys who did nothing but study the Lions in their area and have it pre decided which ones could be taken without affecting pride dynamics too much. That would be Lions that have been kicked out of prides or are about to be kicked out of prides or are holding prides that have no dependent young and have suitable incomers waiting in the wings ready to take over. If there's two holding a pride, ideally, two hunters would come in together or one after the other and take both as close together (timewise) as possible.

I'd also give areas strict quotas. However, quotas are already relatively tight and we all know that the idea of a monitoring team for each area is as unrealistic and unaffordable as even a national study.

So, I'm buggered if I know the solution. Two things are for sure though.......Lion hunting ain't ever gonna go down in price and success rates ain't ever gonna get better!

In closing, I'll say that from what I know of the people here, probably the most experienced Lion hunting client here would be Aaron or possibly Saeed.

And the most knowledgeable man here on the overall subject of Lions, is without a shred of a doubt BwanaMich. Not everyone might agree with him but he sure as hell knows his Lions.

I know a sure fire way to save the lions.

Revoke Aaron Neilson's passport. Yup that's it. No science required. Voila' problem solved. Why there would be so many lions left the price might drop so I can afford one.


John

If we engage and support the scientists then we might head off the emotional anti's

quote:

Bottom line, and only my opinion of course, but ACCURATELY aging a LION, in the field, under field judging conditions, considering ALL lions are different, not only from region to region, but right in the VERY SAME areas, is IMPOSSIBLE. One thing that is obvious if you are an experienced PH or lion hunter, is whether or not the lion standing in front of you is a mature animal. So, reduce quotas, insist that ALL PH's and hunters shoot ONLY mature looking lions, and ask them to do their best not to shoot males who hold a pride, etc. But to say we are going to impose AGE limits, when they can't even accurately determine lion ages in the first place, is a recipe for BIG problems, and the only things that will suffer are lions and the lion hunting industry!!!

Very good points Aaron. The problem is we've been leaving it to the industry to self regulate for years now and it's obvious no one is interested in doing so until they are forced by law! Opps! They already are. Until the law is enforced!!! I understand it isn't easy, but it also isn't impossible. People are doing it as we speak. The whole Nyassa area and select companies in Tanzania have been doing this for years. As Bwana Mich and others have said before the quota could be unlimited if everyone would shoot the "right" lions. Reducing quotas is better than continuing as is, but I still am not buying the age thing can't be done. Especially since they're giving a "fudge factor" in allowing 5 year old lions. Aaron and Steve both bring up great points about the variation from area to area in manes. I'm sure national studies would need to be conducted in each country before age rules could be applied. I'm also marveled to some degree by a bunch of nonPHs saying what can and can't be done by PHs. I'd like to hear from some of the PHs with TGT and in the Nyassa area that have been working with this rule. I'd like to hear their response good and bad. I understand that manes vary from area to area, but I find it hard to believe that Patty Curtis couldn't age a Selous line with very reasonable/acceptable accuracy! And that goes for a lot of other PHs I could think of as well!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
I know a sure fire way to save the lions.

Revoke Aaron Neilson's passport. Yup that's it. No science required. Voila' problem solved. Why there would be so many lions left the price might drop so I can afford one.


John

If we engage and support the scientists then we might head off the emotional anti's

I think that is the best answer I have heard yet.

quote:

Bottom line, and only my opinion of course, but ACCURATELY aging a LION, in the field, under field judging conditions, considering ALL lions are different, not only from region to region, but right in the VERY SAME areas, is IMPOSSIBLE.

My daddy always told me: "lets do all the hard-stuff today and get the impossible tomorrow."

Thus far in my life...I have not seen anything that is impossible.

Just about anything can be figured out and mastered if one tries hard enough and applies one's brain.