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Aaron,

I agree with pretty much everything you say, but you should try not to get upset about the law that penalises the PH for an inappropriate trophy. The TZ game laws have been like that for many years for several species regarding size/weight and all species regarding sex (depending on which act is applied). The PHs live with it and the good ones rarely, if ever make a mistake.

It might be a pain in the arse but it sure as hell ain't gonna change!


Shakari - Agreed, with one very distinct exception, and here's an example. You guys will have to correct me if I am wrong but the TZ law on Elephants is something like 3 ft out of the lip and/or 40lbs to be legal, somewhere in there? Granted, when in the field the PH must use experience to estimate those parameters. BUT, once the animal is dead, and the measurements are taken, the length and weight are totally indisputable facts!!! No two ways about it, and no one will dispute it. If a similar law is imposed on lions, but the basis for imposing the law is educated science that can only give an educated, scientific "ESTIMATE", but yet impose harsh penalties for non-compliance, THAT JUST AIN'T RIGHT!!!!


Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com

 
Posts: 4888 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009Reply With Quote
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I am a full time practicing PH in Tz and could not agree more with Aaron Nielsen.

Sort out the quotas - the outfitters will have to deal with selling less lion hunts.
 
Posts: 280 | Location: Tanzania | Registered: 11 March 2005Reply With Quote
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Aaron,

I see your point completely but of course, if the age of 6+ can't be absolutely proven then logically, neither can the age of -6 be absolutely proven either. Therefore, effectively, it's a moot point. Wink

Regarding the other minimums of Leopard, Elephant and Croc: A sensible PH is well advised to bear in mind that all trophies will suffer a degree of shrinkage and therefore when he's making his estimation of the animal before it's shot, and even if he's using sizing markers as he'd be well advised to do with Leopard and Croc, he should allow for that shrinkage.

That same principle can and should be applied to Lions as well, in that, if it's marginal, it's not a shooter.

As I see it, there are a variety of challenges in Lion hunting and deciding what's a shooter and what isn't, is just one of many of those challenges and we don't yet have all the answers as to the best way to manage the populations...... and I'll bet a pound to a pinch of the brown stuff it'll be some considerable time before we have all those answers.

In the meantime, if we can make a start at improving matters by having an age restriction and/or limiting quotas (which incidentally will push prices up), that's OK by me.

JT,

C'mon buddy. I know you well enough to know you're operating properly and getting it right rather than practicing in the hope of getting it right!!!!! rotflmo jumping rotflmo

Ah shit, sorry about that mate but I just couldn't resist! animal animal animal






 
Posts: 12415 | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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Bwanamich - You're right, it hasn't been imposed yet and I hope it never does. At least not to the extreme that I am obviously against.

Along with hunting lions for the past 15 years, I too have been a guide/outfitter here in numerous states for 19 years. Unlike many of the posters to this thread, I too know that side of the coin very well. Now I've never guided lion hunts, but I have guided on Governor's tags where clients have paid in excess of $100,000.00 for the permit, the hunt, etc. Now some of you foreigners may not know what governor's tags are, but the U.S. guys certainly well. The pressures faced when guiding these guys to produce trophies can sometimes be extreme, depending on the client. I just want something in place that is fair and consistent to all those involved. I just don't want to see a bunch of arm-chair quarterbacks dictating policy (LAW), and then having the luxury of the internet or some TZ game & fish office to hide behind and say, "see, I told ya so." I already see that to some degree on this site from time to time. Guys talking about poor guides, bad field practices, shooting the wrong trophies, etc, etc. But yet, most of them have never been a guide, ph or outfitter in their life. Guys like you, me and the rest of the outfitters/ph/guides on this site have to do it better than all the rest. Cause at the end of the day, no one is on here talking about how ledvm is a poor Veterinarian, or Brett a bad doctor, or if the contractor totally screwed up the addition he put on Shakari's house. But those of us in the hunting profession are under HUGE scrutiny, in front of a huge internet and tight-nit community that might be worldwide, but is really quite small. Just let some PH/guide do something wrong and watch how fast it's on this site, The Hunting Report, etc, etc. Sometimes justified, sometimes not. When was the last time you saw the VETERINARIAN REPORT? So like I say, I just want something that is fair and can be accurately evaluated, before its implemented, that's all.


Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com

 
Posts: 4888 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
quote:
I just don't believe that Patty Curtis can't age lions in the Seleus, Ivan Carter can't age lions in the valley, Johan Calitz/Jeff Rann can't age lions in the Chobe, or johnny Du Ploy can't age lions in the Luangwa just because they "vary". These are highly skilled and experienced professionals. They know these areas and have seen hundreds or thousands of lions there to help understand what the "right" male looks like. That's what they've done for a long time and what they get paid to do. If they make a few mistakes that's understandable and so be it, but we need to start somewhere.


Brett - Don't look now but you are making my point for me. Leave it to the pros, in their own areas, and ONLY implement fines or penalties for the OBVIOUSLY young lions. You guys keep talking about science, but every time it goes back to an opinion, a guess, about the age of the lions. Just as in the pics I posted, ledvm wouldn't hazard a guess, and Bwanamich gave him OPINION, as he clearly stated. Granted an educated opinion from a man with loads of experience. But if you noticed, at the beginning of this thread he and I gave the same guess as to the approximate age of the lion in the pic. His from education, and experience, mine from experience. Plus, I have the lions in the pics to look at up-close and personal. I think Bwanamich did a pretty good job at estimating the ages of those lions as well. I pretty much agree with his estimations.

So, let me try and get my exact point across so there is NO MIS-UNDERSTANDINGS ABOUT MY POINT OF VIEW. I am ALL FOR science and it's ability to help educate PH's and clients as it comes to trying to ESTIMATE the age of wild lions, and make a harvest selection based on the science used.

WHAT I AM AGAINST IS, A HARD AND FAST LAW (AGE LIMIT) THAT WILL BE A HUGE PENALTY TO THE PH, THE OUTFITTER AND THE CLIENT. WHEN THAT LAW (AGE LIMIT) CANNOT BE PROVED BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT TO BE A FACT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That I think is the point of mine that all you science guys just aren't listening to. No matter what, no matter how much science, it's still going to be an educated, scientific, ESTIMATE. Ledvm said that, Bwanamich said that, and I'm saying that too! And I think the potential consequences to the parties involved, if such a law was imposed, is too harsh when its all based on educated, scientific ESTIMATES in the first place.

Like I said before, 2+2 = 4, that is a fact, an indisputable fact. Aging wild lions will never be fact, so the laws, rules or regulations imposed should follow along guidelines, but NOT hard and fast laws that are disputable in the first place.


For sure we're on the same page. So how do you write the penalization of killing blatantly young lions into law? What's the penalty? Where do you draw the line on age or do you just take a look and see if it looks mature? Should the law expressedly exclude the taking of lions holding prides with dependant cubs? I think there needs to be some law with teeth otherwise it will continue to be the wild west.

Brett


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Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter
May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick.
And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too.
May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep.
May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip.
-Seth Peterson
 
Posts: 4551 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 21 February 2008Reply With Quote
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Would a booking agent rather a client shot a 4 y/o pride male or come home empty?
 
Posts: 535 | Location: Greensburg, PA | Registered: 18 February 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by dla69:
Would a booking agent rather a client shot a 4 y/o pride male or come home empty?


They get paid either way, so I'm sure it depends on the booking agent and weather the client is happy.

Brett


DRSS
Life Member SCI
Life Member NRA
Life Member WSF

Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter
May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick.
And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too.
May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep.
May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip.
-Seth Peterson
 
Posts: 4551 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 21 February 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
quote:
Originally posted by dla69:
Would a booking agent rather a client shot a 4 y/o pride male or come home empty?


They get paid either way, so I'm sure it depends on the booking agent and weather the client is happy.

Brett


I know they get paid either way. I'm wondering about additional business, both the hunter that was told not to shoot a lion and everyone he told about it.
 
Posts: 535 | Location: Greensburg, PA | Registered: 18 February 2008Reply With Quote
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I would imagine that depends on the booking agent/hunting company and how forthright they were about their brand of lion hunting. As many have previously stated when you ask TGT about hunting lions with them they are very matter of fact and tell you before you book how it will be and what your chances are. They also say if that's not for you book with someone else. If you do that it's kind of hard for the client to be pissed.

Brett


DRSS
Life Member SCI
Life Member NRA
Life Member WSF

Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter
May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick.
And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too.
May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep.
May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip.
-Seth Peterson
 
Posts: 4551 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 21 February 2008Reply With Quote
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I think Aaron makes a point here that deserves further discussion.

If a guy is plunking down 100K for a hunt and shoots a small lion by accident, what do you think happens in Tanz if the penalities are severe?

Brett: How many sub 50 inch moose do you think rot in the bush? I bet if the penalty were a small "excise tax" there would be far fewer.


Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
http://forums.accuratereloadin...821061151#2821061151

 
Posts: 7578 | Location: Arizona and off grid in CO | Registered: 28 July 2004Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I think Aaron makes a point here that deserves further discussion.

If a guy is plunking down 100K for a hunt and shoots a small lion by accident, what do you think happens in Tanz if the penalities are severe?


Almost exactly the same as if he'd shot an undersized Leopard, Crocodile or Elephant but with a somewhat lesser fine......... That's nothing new though and those penalties have been there since the game laws were written in about the sixties. The only difference is that with the three I mentioned, the MAXIMUM fine is the trophy fee, plus the trophy fee plus the trophy fee, whereas for Lion, it's the trophy fee, plus the trophy fee. All other possible penalties are the same in all cases.

One of the reasons the PH is there is to ensure that type of accident doesn't happen........ and if the client wanted a guaranteed Lion he should have gone to SA or elsewhere where he can shoot one in a cage rather than Tanzania where a hunt is a hunt and therefore by definition doesn't come with guaranteed success.






 
Posts: 12415 | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by shakari:
quote:
Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I think Aaron makes a point here that deserves further discussion.

If a guy is plunking down 100K for a hunt and shoots a small lion by accident, what do you think happens in Tanz if the penalities are severe?


Almost exactly the same as if he'd shot an undersized Leopard, Crocodile or Elephant but with a somewhat lesser fine......... That's nothing new though and those penalties have been there since the game laws were written in about the sixties.

One of the reasons the PH is there is to ensure that type of accident doesn't happen........ and if the client wanted a guaranteed Lion he should have gone to SA or elsewhere where he can shoot one in a cage rather than Tanzania where a hunt is a hunt and therefore by definition doesn't come with guaranteed success.


Well, there is something I will agree on. Guaranteed success. Not what I am looking for. It's what separates lion hunting from buffalo hunting today. It is why I think a big bull elk is a better trophy than a run of the mill buff. Buffalo hunting is fun, but to say every buff is a trophy means basically everyone is 100% successful. Me, I like to be selective unless I am shooting for bait.


Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
http://forums.accuratereloadin...821061151#2821061151

 
Posts: 7578 | Location: Arizona and off grid in CO | Registered: 28 July 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Like I said before, 2+2 = 4, that is a fact, an indisputable fact. Aging wild lions will never be fact, so the laws, rules or regulations imposed should follow along guidelines, but NOT hard and fast laws that are disputable in the first place.


Kind of helping support the idea that science isn't totally the answer:
Actually 2+2=4 only for sufficiently large values of 2. (I'll take off the taped up horn rimmed glasses now).

After reading this discussion, I get the idea that being a lion PH (or a PH in general) is like being a physician/veterinarian: an art and a science. One needs the scientific knowledge as a base, but the experience to know how to apply it to an individual situation.


Caleb
 
Posts: 1010 | Location: Texan in Muskogee, OK now moved to Wichita, KS | Registered: 28 February 2005Reply With Quote
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For sure we're on the same page. So how do you write the penalization of killing blatantly young lions into law? What's the penalty? Where do you draw the line on age or do you just take a look and see if it looks mature? Should the law expressedly exclude the taking of lions holding prides with dependant cubs? I think there needs to be some law with teeth otherwise it will continue to be the wild west.

Brett


Brett - I love this man, you keep making my point for me! Too many arbitrary unknowns, un-verifiables or unrealistic exacts as it comes to age laws. so lower quotas, or assign specific quotas to specific areas and let the PROS who hunt the areas do their business.

Aaron Neilson


Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com

 
Posts: 4888 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Along with hunting lions for the past 15 years, I too have been a guide/outfitter here in numerous states for 19 years. Unlike many of the posters to this thread, I too know that side of the coin very well. Now I've never guided lion hunts, but I have guided on Governor's tags where clients have paid in excess of $100,000.00 for the permit, the hunt, etc. Now some of you foreigners may not know what governor's tags are, but the U.S. guys certainly well. The pressures faced when guiding these guys to produce trophies can sometimes be extreme, depending on the client. I just want something in place that is fair and consistent to all those involved. I just don't want to see a bunch of arm-chair quarterbacks dictating policy (LAW), and then having the luxury of the internet or some TZ game & fish office to hide behind and say, "see, I told ya so." I already see that to some degree on this site from time to time. Guys talking about poor guides, bad field practices, shooting the wrong trophies, etc, etc. But yet, most of them have never been a guide, ph or outfitter in their life. Guys like you, me and the rest of the outfitters/ph/guides on this site have to do it better than all the rest. Cause at the end of the day, no one is on here talking about how ledvm is a poor Veterinarian, or Brett a bad doctor, or if the contractor totally screwed up the addition he put on Shakari's house. But those of us in the hunting profession are under HUGE scrutiny, in front of a huge internet and tight-nit community that might be worldwide, but is really quite small. Just let some PH/guide do something wrong and watch how fast it's on this site, The Hunting Report, etc, etc. Sometimes justified, sometimes not. When was the last time you saw the VETERINARIAN REPORT? So like I say, I just want something that is fair and can be accurately evaluated, before its implemented, that's all.


Brett, Cable68, dla69 - Did you guys read my post above. Now don't get too upset here because I am not saying this in a mean way, and I apologize up front if I at all offend you, not my purpose. But a prime example of exactly what I am talking about in my quote above. Lots of armchair quarter-backing from guys with little lion hunting experience, little guiding or PH experience, especially with clients paying big money for hunts, and lastly not in the Booking Agency business either. Its easy to cast stones at booking agents, knowing full well that nothing you say or do on this site can jeopardize your livelihood, like what I say or do, possible can.

Brett - Come on man, "The Wild West"??? Dude, I am not sure where you have been hunting in Africa, but I have never seen anything remotely close to that description!!

Aaron


Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com

 
Posts: 4888 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Actually I was actually kind of trying to tie in both arguements together. You talk mainly about the experience (art side), Mitch and Lane keep talking about the studies done on aging lions (science side). In a way both sides are right.

For the PH in the field they gotta have both. Books and classes and all the stuff going into what he needs for written exams can give a basic knowledge some things to look for to give a general idea of what to look for in aging a lion, but his local knowledge/experience will be what goes into the decision of saying "shoot".

I agree that the laws need to have some room for when honest mistakes happen and one bad result shouldn't ruin one's life, and the court of internet opinion is something we all have to face. As a surgeon I can tell you there are sites out there that do have ratings and opinions given on us by patients , maybe not as well trafficed or tight knit as AR, but they are out there, so yes I do know about the internet potentially jeopaordizing my livelihood.


Caleb
 
Posts: 1010 | Location: Texan in Muskogee, OK now moved to Wichita, KS | Registered: 28 February 2005Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Come on, you science guys gotta admit. The link below is pretty funny!!!

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/4631072121



yes it is.

... the irony
 
Posts: 1678 | Registered: 16 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Funny thing about this thread is everyone has been pretty much on the same page two days ago.

Age matters
Prides matter
Conservation matters

The industry just needs to work out the details.
How do you determine age in the field?
How do you penalize bad actors?
How do you provide allowance for the good ones?
How do you let hunters know (and accept) that there is no sure thing unless you are going canned.
 
Posts: 1678 | Registered: 16 November 2006Reply With Quote
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even funnier. i originally started the whole thing 3-4 days ago with an innocent question about an age estimate/legality of a lion i saw in Bots. within a dozen posts, the thread was hijacked-excuse me, expanded- and became a pissing contest for opposing viewpoints on Tz. hunting regulations..... oh well. at least i now have some idea of about how old the lion in the photo is/was.


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To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP
 
Posts: 13552 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 28 October 2006Reply With Quote
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Sorry, guys, while I enjoyed reading the posts of obviously more experienced lion hunters than me ( I never hunted Leo) - I still don't have an answer as to what that critter is that he is standing over in the photo. (It does look a little bigger than something a lion,even an old lion, couldn't easily run down) Just asking. {I'm also prejudiced in favor of us old guys) Smiler
 
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it was a young bull buffalo that the lionesses killed the night before. the pride had eaten about 1/3 of it by the time we found it the next morning.


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Posts: 13552 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 28 October 2006Reply With Quote
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What is great to see here is that a consensus is really being reached.

Not one of us disagrees that the shooting of blatantly young lions is way wrong and should be penalised heavily.

I think most of us are also starting to see that hitting a Ph with a 3rd of his yearly income fine because the tooth xray said 5 not 6 is a non-starter as well.

Not often I get this deeply into any controversy here, but nice to see that we are all getting onto the same page.

Yes we want lions forever, and good ones too, what some of the "lion ageing" extremists are advocating is similar to the firearms debate in the US, where the antis promulgate laws that actually cut out most of the good guys...and I count myself one of the good guys.

Shakari I'll get you for that chirp sooner or later - over a beer
 
Posts: 280 | Location: Tanzania | Registered: 11 March 2005Reply With Quote
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I've no doubt about that buddy! beer






 
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Ya know, if all these damn intellectuals with advanced degrees that I don't even understand, will just admit that I am right, then we can finally end this entire thread?????? jumping

Sincerely,

Experienced, but un-educated!


Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com

 
Posts: 4888 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
quote:
Along with hunting lions for the past 15 years, I too have been a guide/outfitter here in numerous states for 19 years. Unlike many of the posters to this thread, I too know that side of the coin very well. Now I've never guided lion hunts, but I have guided on Governor's tags where clients have paid in excess of $100,000.00 for the permit, the hunt, etc. Now some of you foreigners may not know what governor's tags are, but the U.S. guys certainly well. The pressures faced when guiding these guys to produce trophies can sometimes be extreme, depending on the client. I just want something in place that is fair and consistent to all those involved. I just don't want to see a bunch of arm-chair quarterbacks dictating policy (LAW), and then having the luxury of the internet or some TZ game & fish office to hide behind and say, "see, I told ya so." I already see that to some degree on this site from time to time. Guys talking about poor guides, bad field practices, shooting the wrong trophies, etc, etc. But yet, most of them have never been a guide, ph or outfitter in their life. Guys like you, me and the rest of the outfitters/ph/guides on this site have to do it better than all the rest. Cause at the end of the day, no one is on here talking about how ledvm is a poor Veterinarian, or Brett a bad doctor, or if the contractor totally screwed up the addition he put on Shakari's house. But those of us in the hunting profession are under HUGE scrutiny, in front of a huge internet and tight-nit community that might be worldwide, but is really quite small. Just let some PH/guide do something wrong and watch how fast it's on this site, The Hunting Report, etc, etc. Sometimes justified, sometimes not. When was the last time you saw the VETERINARIAN REPORT? So like I say, I just want something that is fair and can be accurately evaluated, before its implemented, that's all.


Brett, Cable68, dla69 - Did you guys read my post above. Now don't get too upset here because I am not saying this in a mean way, and I apologize up front if I at all offend you, not my purpose. But a prime example of exactly what I am talking about in my quote above. Lots of armchair quarter-backing from guys with little lion hunting experience, little guiding or PH experience, especially with clients paying big money for hunts, and lastly not in the Booking Agency business either. Its easy to cast stones at booking agents, knowing full well that nothing you say or do on this site can jeopardize your livelihood, like what I say or do, possible can.

Brett - Come on man, "The Wild West"??? Dude, I am not sure where you have been hunting in Africa, but I have never seen anything remotely close to that description!!

Aaron


I did miss that. That's an excellent perspective.

Brett


DRSS
Life Member SCI
Life Member NRA
Life Member WSF

Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter
May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick.
And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too.
May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep.
May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip.
-Seth Peterson
 
Posts: 4551 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 21 February 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Ya know, if all these damn intellectuals with advanced degrees that I don't even understand, will just admit that I am right, then we can finally end this entire thread?????? jumping

Sincerely,

Experienced, but un-educated!


......and with that you may have one....for now! Big Grin

Brett


DRSS
Life Member SCI
Life Member NRA
Life Member WSF

Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter
May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick.
And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too.
May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep.
May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip.
-Seth Peterson
 
Posts: 4551 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 21 February 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
... so lower quotas, or assign specific quotas to specific areas and let the PROS who hunt the areas do their business.

Aaron Neilson


There aren't enough lion "PROS" out there to make this work as you suggest. The photos of young dead lions displayed all over web, magazines, brochures, etc proves this!

The low quota "helps" the issue in vague terms because even if everyone shot 3 year olds, we would be shooting less lions than we do today and therefore delaying the inevitable demise of those populations........ for a while.

Now, an "age-based" regulation - and by age I don't mean an exact age such as 5 yrs and 6 months but an "age-group" (for example: "less than 6" and "6+") that is being implemented with consequences to parties involved will automatically result in the same i.e. less lions shot which would be the same as reducing quota. BUT you are ultimately ensuring the populations' stability - or at least not contributing to its decrease as other factors could affect the numbers eg disease, poaching, encroachment, etc.

Aaron, are you familiar with the Lion program in Niassa reserve, Mozambique? That could be used as a platform to draft regulations for the trophy hunting of lions for example.


"...Them, they were Giants!"
J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa

hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset
 
Posts: 3035 | Location: Tanzania - The Land of Plenty | Registered: 19 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Bwanamich:
[ are you familiar with the Lion program in Niassa reserve, Mozambique? That could be used as a platform to draft regulations for the trophy hunting of lions for example.


If anyone is interested, you'll find the entire report here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...ion-final-report.pdf

It's a long but very interesting read!






 
Posts: 12415 | Registered: 01 July 2002Reply With Quote
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Now I don't know too much about concessions, but it seems to me that if you get long term operators in place 10 years maybe that will help ensure the areas are managed for good lion. A cub today is your salary 6 years from now.

It's when a concession is about to be lost or is short term that an outfitter may harvest what he can from it.

Not that this is the only problem with lions by any means, but it may contribute.

And, just for the record, I am one of those armchair quarterbacks. Haven't had the pleasure of chasing lion.
 
Posts: 1678 | Registered: 16 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Had the pleasure to meat C & K Begg of the NIASSA CARNIVORE PROJECT this season at Kambako Safaris camp.
Another of their reports www.predatorconservation.com/niassa.htm
 
Posts: 5886 | Location: Sydney,Australia  | Registered: 03 July 2005Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by JohnHunt:
Now I don't know too much about concessions, but it seems to me that if you get long term operators in place 10 years maybe that will help ensure the areas are managed for good lion. A cub today is your salary 6 years from now.

It's when a concession is about to be lost or is short term that an outfitter may harvest what he can from it.

Not that this is the only problem with lions by any means, but it may contribute.

And, just for the record, I am one of those armchair quarterbacks. Haven't had the pleasure of chasing lion.


You are correct of course! However, more than long leases, the regulation of the "sub-leasing" that long lease holders allow to occur in their concessions is more important. You can have a 20 year lease but if you allow Tom, Dick and Harry to hunt lions there, your lions are going to be in trouble Big Grin


"...Them, they were Giants!"
J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa

hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset
 
Posts: 3035 | Location: Tanzania - The Land of Plenty | Registered: 19 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Oz,
your link doesn't work(spelling is not correct). When I try to correct the spelling it gives me an error for the website. the wwwpredatorconservation.com (without /niassa)site does not look like the correct site?


"...Them, they were Giants!"
J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa

hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset
 
Posts: 3035 | Location: Tanzania - The Land of Plenty | Registered: 19 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Found it thumb


"...Them, they were Giants!"
J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa

hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset
 
Posts: 3035 | Location: Tanzania - The Land of Plenty | Registered: 19 September 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
... so lower quotas, or assign specific quotas to specific areas and let the PROS who hunt the areas do their business.

Aaron Neilson



There aren't enough lion "PROS" out there to make this work as you suggest. The photos of young dead lions displayed all over web, magazines, brochures, etc proves this!


quote:
Originally posted by JohnHunt:
Now I don't know too much about concessions, but it seems to me that if you get long term operators in place 10 years maybe that will help ensure the areas are managed for good lion. A cub today is your salary 6 years from now.

It's when a concession is about to be lost or is short term that an outfitter may harvest what he can from it.

Not that this is the only problem with lions by any means, but it may contribute.

And, just for the record, I am one of those armchair quarterbacks. Haven't had the pleasure of chasing lion.



You are correct of course! However, more than long leases, the regulation of the "sub-leasing" that long lease holders allow to occur in their concessions is more important. You can have a 20 year lease but if you allow Tom, Dick and Harry to hunt lions there, your lions are going to be in trouble Big Grin


Bwanamich - Ok, I'll agree that perhaps there aren't enough lion pros in the PH business. Evidenced by the piss poor lions you see shot sometimes. But I truly believe that's lack of concern, rather than simply not knowing better. You have to be an idiot not to know some of those lions are too young to be shot.

Now, to your other point. And once again, please do not take offense to this because it's not directed at you, or intended as an insult, just some facts that must be considered. Everyone here talks about the wonderful job that TGT does in terms of lion preservation, and I agree. But the fact is, TGT is not operating in the REAL world, let me explain my position. We all know the owners of TGT are an extremely wealthy family from the U.S., and the bottom line is of NO concern to them. Perhaps you can confirm, but I heard rumors that TGT actually celebrated the fact that they made a dollar last year, at their last Christmas party. Now look, I do not mean any of that as an insult, in fact it is a very enviable position that I am positive most Tanzania hunting operations would love to be in. Heck, I know I would. But what it does for them, and you as a TGT employee is allow all of you to make decisions, knowing that you will have no consequences associated with those decisions that could heavily effect your livelihood. The owners of TGT I am sure do not want clients like Steve Chancellor, or any others for that matter, leaving un-happy, and I am sure you don't either. Everyone involved with TGT is most likely very honest and reputable, but fact is if 100% of your clients left disappointed and without a lion for example, TGT ownership ain't gonna starve, and you are still getting a pay check. So it's easy to point fingers at others operations that DO NOT HAVE THE LUXURY to make decisions in the same manner that TGT does. Bwanamich, you have a wonderful safety net that allows for lack of success to be acceptable, and yet you still get paid, plus know full well that if the same thing happens next year, your superiors won't mind. If TGT went the next 10 years and didn't make a single dollar, the owners will not get too concerned, but most of the hunting industry DOES NOT HAVE THAT LUXURY. Thus most of the outfitting community needs to make decisions that are best for the clients as well as the game. Thus, making it a much finer line to walk. Let too many people think you are not successful as a hunting operation, and watch how fast the clients go away. Yes I know, TGT continues to get them, but you and I both know TGT has a select clientele, and facts are that MOST clients are not the same as the guys that go with TGT. There are not thousands of guys out there with the money TGT clients have, nor are willing to accept the same disappointments that some TGT clients are willing to as well.

So take all of that into consideration and sometimes guys need to sub-lease their areas, they need to consider client success, they need to consider that MAKING A DOLLAR IS PARAMOUNT TO THEIR SUCCESS. Hard to pay the bills or put food on the table when the company is not profitable???? Unless that is of course you are a wealthy U.S. family that is not concerned about the profitability, or employees of said company that get paid either way as well. Please, take this for what it is, just reality, not an insult directed at you or TGT.

For the past 16-17 years I have been a self-employed hunting guide/outfitter and booking agent. I am solely dependent on my ability to book hunts, offer good hunting services, and maintain a high client satisfaction average, to stay in business. And everyone here can try and say different, but I have been doing this long enough to know. I would say 75% - 85% of the time clients associate satisfaction with success, period!!! Like it or not, that's the facts. Facts that MOST of us in the industry must consider when determining how we plan out our ability to be successful. I get tired of seeing guys comment like it's a bad thing that us hunting industry folks are trying to make money. Can't imagine that a doctor, contractor, or electrician works for free, but somehow we are often painted with a different brush because we try and be profitable too!!

Guys here throw out comments such as, "is a booking agent more concerned about his client shooting a 4 yr old pride male and being happy, or the lion"??? Answer is, both!! Or you get things like, "well he gets paid either way, so guess it depends on him". I mean come on guys, lets not be silly. Of course most involved in the industry, and NO ONE more than me wants the ultimate success of the lion to be paramount. But it is a fine line to walk when profitability and success must be factored in together. I want my clients to be happy, I want them to be successful, and I want the PH to use a common sense approach to making all of that happen. LOOK, if a client of mine came back raising hell over the PH not letting him shoot a lion, and then the PH tells me that the lion was an obvious 2-3 yr old male with spots still on his legs, just a completely un-acceptable animal to harvest, I would tell the client to get fucked!!! Pardon my language. I do the same thing on our leases here in Colorado for DEER, all the time. I have had a couple instances in the past 2 years with clients, both times I had mule deer in the mid 180's that were likely only 4.5 yr old deer, and I refused to let the clients shoot the deer. We only shoot deer we think are 5.5 yrs and older. In each instance, the client was at first a little ticked, but after careful explanation of the reason behind it, everything seemed ok. But on the other hand, if Steve Chancellor was my client, a client who has shot 40 plus lions in his life, and he came back raising hell about his $100,000.00 lion hunt, that was un-successful because the PH/company would not let him shoot a lion that his VAST EXPERIENCE tells him was obviously mature. Yep, I would be pretty pissed!! One, because I value my client, and two because I depend on client happiness to ensure that he returns again as a client. I unfortunately, like most rely on a profitable operation to survive. So before you guys cast stones at operators who are not following the TGT model to a "T", perhaps you should walk a mile in their shoes first. I know that not everyone is doing is as good as TGT, but NOT EVERYONE has the same luxuries as TGT does either.

Yes, I am aware of the Mozambique lion project, but not completely! I am going to read it thoroughly, as so kindly provided by Shakari.

Aaron Neilson


Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com

 
Posts: 4888 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Guy was drinking beer in the middle of the day.


Does this mean I have to give up my veterinary license???


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38120 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Brett - Don't look now but you are making my point for me. Leave it to the pros, in their own areas,


The pros are the ones asking for things like x-rays of teeth.

See my post there:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/2121072121


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38120 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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But those of us in the hunting profession are under HUGE scrutiny, in front of a huge internet and tight-nit community that might be worldwide, but is really quite small. Just let some PH/guide do something wrong and watch how fast it's on this site, The Hunting Report, etc, etc. Sometimes justified, sometimes not. When was the last time you saw the VETERINARIAN REPORT? So like I say, I just want something that is fair and can be accurately evaluated, before its implemented, that's all.


Aaron,
This is specifically to you.

This thread and this website as well as all the others like it combined are a mere drop of water in the Pacific compared to what the medical (both veterinary and human) profession faces daily.

Do you watch the news???


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38120 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Y'all are missing the point with the x-rays. We all know they are of no use ante-mortem on a specific lion.

The point is that things like the narrowing of the pulp-cavity (root canal) of teeth are a very consitent thing and that are "un"-influenced by the where they live. It is just a natural progression of age.

When we use things like this retrospectively...it helps us to predict the future better. That is why history is taught in school (for those of you that went...LOL!!!).

IE: If every time a lion is studied and shot, a predictable marker is evaluated post-mortem to verify that particular animal's age, DON'T YOU THINK YOU WILL GET BETTER EACH TIME???

Also, we can begin to narrow our data bases down to those very good criteria that we can see on-the-paw.

Another real-life example of different subject but same principle:

My family buys and sells cattle. Some of them buy "packer cows" on orders from companies. They are commonly known as "order buyers". When a cow comes through a sale ring, you get about 30 seconds to make up your mind about her and she is gone. And most of the time she is pinging off the fences like a pen-ball. Things you need to know about that cow are 1) age 2) pregnancy status 3) health 4) weight and 5) carcass grade. People who do this are amazingly accurate. If they are inaccurate, THEY LOOSE THERE JOB! They have gotten good at this by trial and error and by post-mortem makers, in this case the carcass. I know folks who can see a cow for less than minute and tell you her age with in a year or 2, say if she is heavy bred, if she has cancer or infectious disease, what she weighs, how big her rib-eyes are, and how much fat is over the top of them.

They got that good from 3 things: 1) experience 2) accountability (job loss if wrong very often) 3) by going and looking "inside" of what they produced and "CORRELATING POST-MORTEM FINDINGS WITH FUTURE ANTE-MORTEM BUYS"!

Otherwise we will be just like Aaron...we'll have a room full of trophies that we think are 6 or above but we won't know for sure. Not that it makes a difference for these individuals but for the future of lion hunting in general!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38120 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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"well he gets paid either way, so guess it depends on him"


Aaron,

That quote was taken from me. One of the perils of posting on the internet is you're meanings behind a comment can be vague to others. This quote's meaning was that regardless of a clients sucess the booking agent gets paid, so I would imagine weather a booking agent was concerned about the taking of a 4 year old lion would depend on the agent. Like any other profession you have good ones and bad ones. That comment was not directed at booking agents as a whole, but just stating that it depends on the individual. Sorry for any offense.

Brett

PS. I'm a capitalist as well. I hope we all make lots of money!!!


DRSS
Life Member SCI
Life Member NRA
Life Member WSF

Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter
May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick.
And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too.
May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep.
May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip.
-Seth Peterson
 
Posts: 4551 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 21 February 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Y'all are missing the point with the x-rays. We all know they are of no use ante-mortem on a specific lion.

The point is that things like the narrowing of the pulp-cavity (root canal) of teeth are a very consitent thing and that are "un"-influenced by the where they live. It is just a natural progression of age.

When we use things like this retrospectively...it helps us to predict the future better. That is why history is taught in school (for those of you that went...LOL!!!).

IE: If every time a lion is studied and shot, a predictable marker is evaluated post-mortem to verify that particular animal's age, DON'T YOU THINK YOU WILL GET BETTER EACH TIME???

Also, we can begin to narrow our data bases down to those very good criteria that we can see on-the-paw.

Another real-life example of different subject but same principle:

My family buys and sells cattle. Some of them buy "packer cows" on orders from companies. They are commonly known as "order buyers". When a cow comes through a sale ring, you get about 30 seconds to make up your mind about her and she is gone. And most of the time she is pinging off the fences like a pen-ball. Things you need to know about that cow are 1) age 2) pregnancy status 3) health 4) weight and 5) carcass grade. People who do this are amazingly accurate. If they are inaccurate, THEY LOOSE THERE JOB! They have gotten good at this by trial and error and by post-mortem makers, in this case the carcass. I know folks who can see a cow for less than minute and tell you her age with in a year or 2, say if she is heavy bred, if she has cancer or infectious disease, what she weighs, how big her rib-eyes are, and how much fat is over the top of them.

They got that good from 3 things: 1) experience 2) accountability (job loss if wrong very often) 3) by going and looking "inside" of what they produced and "CORRELATING POST-MORTEM FINDINGS WITH FUTURE ANTE-MORTEM BUYS"!

Otherwise we will be just like Aaron...we'll have a room full of trophies that we think are 6 or above but we won't know for sure. Not that it makes a difference for these individuals but for the future of lion hunting in general!


A whale of a difference in making comparisons between a cow and a lion!
Those folks who can come within a year or 2 would fail miserably with lion Big Grin

As someone said earlier - sub leasing of areas is probably one of the main causes leading
to the shooting of young lions; that and minimum quota returns imposed by the authorities also
come into play as the lease holder doesn't want to find himself having to ante up on the
difference for the 'key species' - neither will he want to reduce his lion quota and lose revenue
on his safari days.

Tanzania has in recent years also seen a sudden increase of new/young PHs - individuals who are mostly unheard of,
no record of apprenticeship with any hunting companies, etc. etc. etc. who are too eager to please, results
of which lead to many and virtually any Simba dume in the salt! Wink
 
Posts: 307 | Location: Tanzania | Registered: 19 March 2009Reply With Quote
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